Repair cost estimate ala Dan Erlewine - interesting (to me, at least)

[Rob DiStefano]

http://www.stewmac.com/tradesecrets/...072&clk=196748

[maestrovert]

Thanx Rob !

It's always interesting to see Dan Erlewine's take on things, his Guitar Player Repair Guide get a lot of use 'round my place...

[B Valley]

Reminds me how easy it is to overlook something initially and either have to go back and give the customer a different price, or end up eating part of a repair. Sometimes folks are understanding and sometimes they're not.
The worst part is telling someone their $400.00 guitar needs $500.00 worth of repairs.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by B Valley

... The worst part is telling someone their $400.00 guitar needs $500.00 worth of repairs.

Exactly.

Methinks Dan's fees reflects his notoriety.

Using the neck jig is a bit more time consuming (I've found), and limiting for refrets in that the wire needs to be pressed in, can't be banged in ... but still, $325 for a rosewood bound board? I need to jack up my prices a bunch ...

[Daddydex]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

Exactly.

Methinks Dan's fees reflects his notoriety.

Using the neck jig is a bit more time consuming (I've found), and limiting for refrets in that the wire needs to be pressed in, can't be banged in ... but still, $325 for a rosewood bound board? I need to jack up my prices a bunch ...

For a minute I thought you were advocating these prices. Whew....
I don't think there is a place for that kind of repair work in my world. My Les Paul needs fret work but at those prices I would go out and by an Epi and leave my Gibson on the wall looking pretty.

Dan

[Jakedog]

Whoa nelly... Do people actually pay that kind of money for guitar work??

I may have to go into business for myself. I've been doing work on guitars for years. I'll get a phone call, and say "sure, bring it over, and spring for the pizza and beer". No wonder I never get haggled with.

[Flat357]

No matter what your name is , some of those prices are a little high .

$325 + $11.67 + $6 = $342.67 for a refret and $75 + $5.05 = $80.05 for a bone nut ? Is he for real ?
In the UK , the same would cost about £100 and £25 , and our prices normally reflect a straight swap , i.e £100 v $100 .

Surely you guys aren't paying those prices over the pond

[Rob DiStefano]

I think it's a case of - "Methinks Dan's fees reflects his notoriety."

[Flat357]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

I think it's a case of - "Methinks Dan's fees reflects his notoriety."

What's the average non bound refret cost over your side Rob ?

[1293]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

I think it's a case of - "Methinks Dan's fees reflects his notoriety."

He may likely charge even more than those prices. Did you notice how he prefaced the price chart?

"These figures give a good idea of charges at a well-established, but not high-end, shop:"

[TheGoodTexan]

I use Joe Glaser for any repair or mod that is out of my league... or that I'm just too lazy to do... that is, if I have the extra money for it.

I've found out over the years that I should not assume ANYTHING is done free of charge, and that some things (like strings) cost much more in Joe's shop than I get them for at the big box.

So I always include strings in the bag or case when I carry a guitar to Joe... even if I don't think he'll need to remove the old ones. There have been times that I thought the old ones did not need to be removed for a repair (like.. to the input jack or something).. but Joe felt that he needed to get under a pickguard or something... and removed the old strings, put new ones on... charge me for the new ones...PLUS charged me for installing the new ones.

I've also been charged for things like "adjusting the tremolo" on a Strat... when I took a guitar in for a refret. I'm like..."of course you have to adjust a bridge when you do a refret... why are you charging me for a refret, and adjusting the bridge? Shouldn't it all fall under the refret charge?"

So now I'm very specific with Joe. Refret, crown and polish the frets - and that's it. Don't install strings. And don't do a set up. I can install strings, and I'm probably going to re-adjust things several times myself over the next week or so of getting used to the new frets... so why pay for him to do it the first time? ...especially when I'm really good at a basic setup on my own guitars.

But hey - I like Joe a lot, and he's one of the best there is. I'm thankful that I have local access to him, and the guy's got to make a living. His reputation (just like Dan's) allows him to charge a premium. I'll guarantee you - there are plenty of hacks around here. So I'm not begrudging Joe his ability to charge what he feels is a fair price. Plus - there have been a few times when I had to carry something back to him the day after I picked it up... and he stopped what he was doing and "fixed his repair" immediately.

[TheGoodTexan]

Originally Posted by Flat357

$325 + $11.67 + $6 = $342.67 for a refret

and $75 + $5.05 = $80.05 for a bone nut

That is high.

I can get a retret, new nut + a PLEK at Glaser's for less than that.

And that's another thing. I always order my parts, and carry them with me. I never ask Joe to provide a new nut blank. I order it from Stew Mac, and include it a zip lock, rubber banded around the neck, when I carry it in for the repair.

[BAW4742]

I got a price guide from another site a few months ago.

Their estimated price for a refret, level and crown on an unbound fretboard was $340. New bone nut for 6-string was $120. Setup for 6 string electric was $85.

These prices sound like they are in line with Erlewine's. Since I do all of my own work these prices sounded high to me too. Maybe I need to start doing setups for hire but that would probably take the fun out of it.

[TheGoodTexan]

See that line under "Parts" labeled "Supplies (sand paper, glue, steel wool, solvent/cleaner)...

That's a "bogus" charge in my book. Glaser does it too, and I've asked them to remove it in the past. All of that should be covered in the charge for the refret. You don't take your car in for a new wind shield and get a line item charge for the black sealant/glue they used to secure it in place, or the cleaner they use on it after it's been installed. Nope... it's all included in the price for new windshield.

You can't install a wind shield without using that black sealant, and you can't refret a guitar without using glue. It's part of the cost of the labor involved, in my opinion, and to me, that's charging twice for it.

Next there will be a line item charge for the paper that the receipt is printed on.

[tboy]

DE just keeping his shop fees in line with what Stew Mac charges for parts. In a word, outrageous.
Looks like about a hundred an hour. Or in music terms, a C note. Who needs law school?

[jhundt]

When I give an estimate for painting a house, I include all (foreseen) costs in the estimate. IF I am working on a time & materials basis, I always add a charge for "sundries", patching materials, masking and sanding supplies, other things that I keep in my truck. I guess he's doing a little bit of both systems....

I agree, if you say "a fret job costs 200 bucks, frets included" then you probably shouldn't charge extra for the supplies that you use in performing the fret job.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by Flat357

What's the average non bound refret cost over your side Rob ?

You have a PM ...

[tiktok]

That re-fret charge sounds like the going rate for a well-established shop in a major city, in my experience. $70-100/hour doesn't seem outlandish for skilled labor.

I've had cheaper fret-jobs, for a lower price. They were not worth it.

[geddins]

This all just goes back to the age old "what's it worth" argument...and the answer is the same...it's worth whatever someone will pay for it.

In Dan's case, he commands those rates because of his longevity, relationships, and stellar reputation in that business. Trust me, ANYONE who is in business had better be making it his business to find out exactly what his market will bear and adjust pricing to that. To leave money on the table is foolish. If you're overpricing your goods/services, you'll find out pretty quickly...folks won't buy.

[Steve McGinnis]

Guitar repair is not a commodity. He charges what he thinks his time and talent is worth. The market will decide if he is high or low depending on his reputation.

Fender Custom Shop Tele's cost 5 times what a decent usable Fender tele would cost. IF someone wants an Erlewine fret job on their baby, it's their business.

Now if you tell me he is shipping them to a sub contractor that is doing a terrible job....

[TheGoodTexan]

Originally Posted by geddins

This all just goes back to the age old "what's it worth" argument...and the answer is the same...it's worth whatever someone will pay for it.

I'm not a huge eBayer... but I've sold about 40 items on eBay over the years, and every-single-one of them... I've started the bidding at $1. Even for a 6 month old Fender '59 Reissue Bassman LTD. (My wife thought I was crazy.)

But what I've learned is this... I will always get market value for it. Maybe not in the early days of eBay... but nowadays... eBay prices ARE the market value for commonly traded used goods.

By the way... that Bassman... I got within $100 of what I paid for it new. Not bad for 6 months worth of use.

[Frankie]

Rob.. I understand what your saying, and your right. The prices do reflect his notoriety.

I have had Dan work my guitars for quite a long time. I was in the area when Dan worked for Herb David in Ann Arbor, Mi. way back when, From there to his shop in Big Rapids, Mi, now in Ohio. And yes, Dan has repaired guitars for pizza or beer, or for free even to get a hungry broke musician back to a gig. This I know first hand.

Not that it justifies his costs, but quite a few top acts send their guitars to Dan and have for years. He’s always very busy and has an awesome reputation that he earned. But that does tend to raise the costs sometimes.

But to put it into a different respective if you were going to cut a record at a small studio somewhere, what would cost you more. Using the in house guy that does an awesome job, or Rick Rubin. Both could probably put out the same end product, or very close. But Rick would cost more because of what he’s done in the past and just the fact that he’s Rick Rubin. Yep… That damn notoriety thing again, huh Rob..

Dan’s very good at what he does, but so are many others. Rob here for an example…. I’ve heard some nice comments about your work. Can you get the same or better fret job for less money somewhere else. Sure you can. Can someone else install a nut and set up the guitar to play just as nice as Dan for less money, yes of course. But if I knock of the headstock to a Les Paul again, it’s going to Dan. He's a master at the scary repairs.

To lean on Tiktok’s point just a bit. I’ve handed over a guitar to someone that said, “sure man I can go a fret job for $200”. Then had to have someone else straighten it out down the road. Sometimes the ole you get what you pay for holds true. Sometimes the rule is beaten by someone with the right touch, the care and patience.

To me the job is worth what ever it takes to have it done right. If Dan’s $325 is what it takes, I’ll pay it. If someone can match the craftsmanship for less in a reasonable amount of time. I have a Les Paul that’ due.

[ThermionicScott]

That's the beauty of a free market -- the demand sets the prices. Regardless of whether anyone here would pay those prices (I think us DIYers are the most loathe to pay for guitar work), enough people trust Dan that they feel the prices are justified.

- Scott

P.S. I'm not ashamed to admit I'm a believer in neck jigs. Being true DIYers, though, Dad and I built our own!

[blacklinefish]

I think the prices look fine - it's nice to see skilled labor being valued.

Here's another way of looking at it. Imagine DE charged lower prices. If you are a reasonably skilled luthier, and you charged $40 for a custom bone nut and so did DE - wouldn't some one ask "who do you think you are, Dan Erlewine?" Instead, DE charges $75 and if someone balks at your $40 price you could say "hey, take it to Erlewine - he charges $75!"

[Joe-Bob]

There's nothing wrong with his prices. Grow up guys.

Sure, you can always find someone who will quote a lower price, but will it actually end up that way? or will the guy end up being a ham-fisted butcher?

BTW -- Just about every auto repair shop charges an additional fee for "shop supplies"...been that way for a long time.

[Tim Armstrong]

Dan Erlewine is a living legend, and his shop is ALWAYS busy. One way extremely busy people manage the crush of business is to charge a lot of money, which serves to at least somewhat cut down the demand for their services.

He's only charging too much if it scares away TOO MUCH business!

Cheers, Tim

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

There's nothing wrong with his prices. Grow up guys.

Don'tcha think that last remark is a bit harsh, Joe-Bob?

Sure, you can always find someone who will quote a lower price, but will it actually end up that way? or will the guy end up being a ham-fisted butcher?

Actually, there's nothing wrong or right about DE's fees - they is what they is. To some, they're perfectly fair - to others, they're either high ... or low. Part of his pricing needs to reflect who he is, what he offers and represents. That's human nature and part of capitalism. Don't like or can't afford a $340 refret? - go elsewhere. There are more than a few competent techs out there that don't charge DE type fees and you'll get quality work accomplished.

BTW -- Just about every auto repair shop charges an additional fee for "shop supplies"...been that way for a long time.

Yes, and restaurants take yer money *after* you've eaten. The subject is guitar repair and I find that a bit ridiculous to separate relatively inexpensive work materials and tools (geez, charging for abrasive paper?) from the labor charge. But, to each their own.

....

[Feargal]

the fret job that is quoted at $350, how many hours work is that? (i always look at a job that way when someone is quoting me for labour.)

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by Feargal

the fret job that is quoted at $350, how many hours work is that? (i always look at a job that way when someone is quoting me for labour.)

Pure work time - 1 to 3 hours average is a good a time frame as any, dependent on many factors.

[getbent]

I think the use of the word notoriety is not what you actually intended.

Notoriety-noun
the state of being known for some unfavorable act or quality.

I have always thought folks respected Dan Erlewine. I have his book and it has really helped me... isn't he known for mostly good stuff? or is he 'notorious'?

Most refrets around here are 300+... so, his price may be a little high... but, then again, he is willing to share his business practice and be upfront about it.

[Feargal]

Over here if you have a plumber on your house for three hours it will cost that much, so it's not really that expensive.
Trying to find a niche tradseman is difficult if your not in the know, people sing the praises of some very dodgey people, seems to me people are paying this guy for peace of mind.

[Nick JD]

I think Erlewine says it himself here:

Repair prices vary, of course. Until your shop builds a strong reputation, your prices are pretty much set by your local competition. Once you’ve got more work than you can handle, your prices can be set higher.

We could go into the difference between Free Markets and Regulated Markets ... but if this guy has lots of work, then that's what he's worth.

I'd rather do the job myself for the price of six beer-vouchers - then I get to pat myself on the back when my action can be set so low a passing blowfly's fart plays the first bar of Hendrix's Star Spangled Banner.

Isn't capitalism wonderful?

[rocksteady Max]

You really must have played the hell out of your guitar to need new frets ...

Again, the point of Dan Erlewine was to teach you (FREE ! I even received it in my email) how to set your fees for repair. Isn't it great ? And, again, his objective wasn't to get your business because he (Stewart-McDonald) knows that you can do your own repair. The point of the Stewart-McDonald Newsletter is to give the DIYers some tricks and ... to showcase the merchandise they are selling : they want you to buy their tools !

And I approve people to be critical about what they're buying : a great service/repair or a famous-name ; a proper upgrade or snake oil ? I'm beginning to learn how to distinguish the two on this forum. Fortunately the mom and pop shop where I bought my two Fender receives the visit of a very good luthier every friday. His fees are fair, his work is good, you can get your instrument back the same day and try it there and the luthier will fine-tune the instrument if needed.

But, don't kill the messenger (aka DE), he's an icon and you have to pay extra to get him to work on your gear (I believe ...). Same with USA made Fender and Custom shop axes, boutique pedals (I solve the problem by making my own !), boutique amps, etc. In this area you might not get what you pay for ... but you get the satisfaction of a brand, a name. The matter is not if the merchandise is good but if you think it is ... And I think it's good that most people in this thread are aware of that.

[stevieboy]

If I'm going to pay those prices, I'm packing my guitar in styrofoam peanuts!

Seriously, I didn't see anyone here ripping Erlewine for his prices, some simply said they thought they were high. No one is freaking out--except for that shop materials thing! Personally I'd just pad my prices slightly to make up the six bucks.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by getbent

I think the use of the word notoriety is not what you actually intended.

Notoriety-noun
the state of being known for some unfavorable act or quality.

I have always thought folks respected Dan Erlewine. I have his book and it has really helped me... isn't he known for mostly good stuff? or is he 'notorious'?

Most refrets around here are 300+... so, his price may be a little high... but, then again, he is willing to share his business practice and be upfront about it.

American can be a tricky language ...

Thesaurus: notoriety

noun

1. Unfavorable, usually unsavory renown: infamousness, infamy, notoriousness. See knowledge/ignorance.

2. Wide recognition for one's deeds: celebrity, fame, famousness, popularity, renown, reputation, repute. See knowledge/ignorance.

[tazzboy]

I respect Dan Erlewine repair knowledge and right to run his business, but dang that is a lot to charge.

That's why I prefer my local luthier.

[JimiBryant]

I re-broke the headstock on my early '70s Les Paul Deluxe and it's going
to Erlewine's shop when I have money to fix it. I will pay his prices 'cuz
I know it will be a top-notch repair and the guitar has immense value to
me as I've had it for about 30 years now so I want it done best as possible.

I got a rosewood board re-fret for $100 from a local shop and it was worth
what I paid. not perfect but good enough for the price.

unfortunately I'm not skilled enough to pull off a crown and file let alone
a re-fret or a headstock break. so I pay for somebody's time and skills
and that's just the way it is.

[Joe-Bob]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob
There's nothing wrong with his prices. Grow up guys.

Don'tcha think that last remark is a bit harsh, Joe-Bob?...

No.

If it was so easy then anyone would be able to do an expert job of it...but that's just not the case. Is it, Rob?

I know the people on this board think their own skills, experience and knowledge are worth money and a weekly paycheck from their job, so why wouldn't Dan's?

Rob?

I haven't read Erlewine begrudge anyone else their income, have you, Rob?

The cheapskate attitude and crybabying around here gets to be a bit much.

[Daddydex]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

No.

If it was so easy then anyone would be able to do an expert job of it...but that's just not the case. Is it, Rob?

I know the people on this board think their own skills, experience and knowledge are worth money and a weekly paycheck from their job, so why wouldn't Dan's?

Rob?

I haven't read Erlewine begrudge anyone else their income, have you, Rob?

The cheapskate attitude and crybabying around here gets to be a bit much.

I agree telling everyone to "grow up" was harsh. You obviously have a problem with Rob. Why all the drama?

Sometimes being a cheapskate isn't by choice. I think you can really piss off a lot of people with a broad stroke like that.

Dan

Dan

[getbent]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

American can be a tricky language ...

Thesaurus: notoriety

noun

1. Unfavorable, usually unsavory renown: infamousness, infamy, notoriousness. See knowledge/ignorance.

2. Wide recognition for one's deeds: celebrity, fame, famousness, popularity, renown, reputation, repute. See knowledge/ignorance.

Rob, I agree that it is an ambiguous word, but I still don't know for sure what you mean... do you mean that Dan's fame is 'ill gotten' or do you just mean that he is famous. My background in linguistics tells me that notorious and notoriety has a negative connotation... I'm just trying to make sure I understand...