Powered paragliding, ultralight, etc...

jumpnblues · October 5th, 2008, 12:07 PM

...What is the safest of all the powered "ultra light aircraft" types of flying? I was a commercial pilot and flight instructor...35 years ago. So I'm not new to flying but as you can see, it's been awhile. I'm also self employed, so I don't get paid sick leave, if ya' get my drift. In other words I need something that has a "reasonable" safety margin provided you follow safety rules and use good judgment.
I was interested in powered paragliders until someone mentioned on another forum the occasional "collapse" of the wing...yikes!!

Anyway, based on all the above info, what would you recommend? Feel free to make any other comments such as "Tom you ignorant slut, what the heck are you thinking?!!!"

Tom

Rick S · October 5th, 2008, 07:04 PM

Tom, you ignorant slut......seriously, I think the bottom line on safety has mostly to do with the quality of instruction you can get, along with terrain and prevalent weather conditions you have in your area.

The para wing aircraft are pretty much dead calm weather aircraft. The canopy collapse is mostly a wind and thermal activity issue. Landing one of these in any wind at all is a challenge, at best. No cross country capability, strictly an early morning around the patch ride. Anyway, I don't have any experience with these, just what I hear from others.

In the fixed wing ultralights, there have been some very well engineered aircraft and some that are just death traps. The FAR 103 rules are very limiting, and antiquated. Many ultralight "type" aircraft produced today are registered experimental, or being fit into the new sport category.

There is a lot to know to fly one of these safely and good training is a must. A lot of very experienced GA pilots have got into trouble with these. It seems that many of them think that if since they may have 300 hours in a Cub that they can surely handle one of these.

I think the single most issue regarding safety in ultralights is that they have such a narrow flight envelope. For instance, you may have an aircraft with a stall speed of 25-30mph and a cruise of 45-50 mph. Along with this you have a very light, very high drag airframe. If you cut the power (or the engine quits) the airspeed bleeds off VERY fast. In a C152, it's like, engine quits, establish glide, ect., in an ultralight its stick forward NOW, and you're lookin' at the ground to maintain a glide. They sink like a rock.

Of course, when you enter a turn your stall speed increases, making your already narrow flight envelope even tighter. A common accident in these seems to be a stall/spin in a turn to base in the pattern. Again, where a GA pilot would more likely be concerned about adding flaps and slowing down, the ultralight pilot needs to be concerned with maintaining airspeed.

You know what it's like to fly a Cub or C150 in summer thermals, not much fun. Well the ultralight in those conditions is more like bull riding. In my area, there is so much prevalent wind and thermal activity, I decided that flying lawn chairs just wasn't my thing. I think the characteristics that stood out the most to me when I first flew one (with an instructor) was foremost the sink rate. Something about these things looking like a big kite with the huge wing make you think it would float, they don't. Next was the feel of the controls, they are not balanced and have a quite different feel from GA aircraft. You really feel the air pressure on the control surfaces through your stick.

You should search out references for a really good instructor in your area and go take a ride to see what you think. You may really like it, may not, but it's certainly an experience you won't forget.

jumpnblues · October 5th, 2008, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick S

Tom, you ignorant slut......seriously, I think the bottom line on safety has mostly to do with the quality of instruction you can get, along with terrain and prevalent weather conditions you have in your area.

The para wing aircraft are pretty much dead calm weather aircraft. The canopy collapse is mostly a wind and thermal activity issue. Landing one of these in any wind at all is a challenge, at best. No cross country capability, strictly an early morning around the patch ride. Anyway, I don't have any experience with these, just what I hear from others.

In the fixed wing ultralights, there have been some very well engineered aircraft and some that are just death traps. The FAR 103 rules are very limiting, and antiquated. Many ultralight "type" aircraft produced today are registered experimental, or being fit into the new sport category.

There is a lot to know to fly one of these safely and good training is a must. A lot of very experienced GA pilots have got into trouble with these. It seems that many of them think that if since they may have 300 hours in a Cub that they can surely handle one of these.

I think the single most issue regarding safety in ultralights is that they have such a narrow flight envelope. For instance, you may have an aircraft with a stall speed of 25-30mph and a cruise of 45-50 mph. Along with this you have a very light, very high drag airframe. If you cut the power (or the engine quits) the airspeed bleeds off VERY fast. In a C152, it's like, engine quits, establish glide, ect., in an ultralight its stick forward NOW, and you're lookin' at the ground to maintain a glide. They sink like a rock.

Of course, when you enter a turn your stall speed increases, making your already narrow flight envelope even tighter. A common accident in these seems to be a stall/spin in a turn to base in the pattern. Again, where a GA pilot would more likely be concerned about adding flaps and slowing down, the ultralight pilot needs to be concerned with maintaining airspeed.

You know what it's like to fly a Cub or C150 in summer thermals, not much fun. Well the ultralight in those conditions is more like bull riding. In my area, there is so much prevalent wind and thermal activity, I decided that flying lawn chairs just wasn't my thing. I think the characteristics that stood out the most to me when I first flew one (with an instructor) was foremost the sink rate. Something about these things looking like a big kite with the huge wing make you think it would float, they don't. Next was the feel of the controls, they are not balanced and have a quite different feel from GA aircraft. You really feel the air pressure on the control surfaces through your stick.

You should search out references for a really good instructor in your area and go take a ride to see what you think. You may really like it, may not, but it's certainly an experience you won't forget.

Rick,

Lots of great information. Thanks a bunch. In Iowa during "normal weather conditions", it's very common for early AM or late afternoon/evenings to be dead calm, to winds light and variable (<10mph). One of the things that seems to appeal to me with a powered paraglider is the ability to glide. As you stated, ultralights have very poor glide characteristics and in southern Iowa there is quite a bit of timber and hilly ground, interspersed with open fields, prairies, and flat ground. Almost Ozarks-like, except for southern Iowa not being quite so wooded and hilly. I thought, perhaps naively so, southern Iowa's terrain and weather might favor a powered paraglider...something that would glide well if you lost power, and something you could put down in a very short distance. Anyway, that's my logic.
OTOH, I wouldn't appreciate my chute collapsing as I'm merrily touching my toes to the tree tops in a powered paraglider. Or, gliding over a large forest and losing an engine, running out of fuel, etc. Or, my chute collapsing while I'm 50'-100' above the ground, leaving no room to recover. I used to be really good at climbing trees but I'm a little short on experience landing in them.

I see a lot of youtube videos of powered paragliders flying very low for long periods over trees, water, river beds, etc. I would think you'd be much safer maintaining enough altitude (at least 300'-500') to glide to a safe landing area should you lose power. Heck, I would think 1000'-2000' would be safer yet. But I know it gets harder to sight see at higher altitudes.
Well, you kinda' see where I am right now with my knowledge of the subject. Although I was a GA commercial pilot (35 years ago) I have no illusions regarding my total inexperience with ultra light aircraft. And I have neither the desire to undergo the orthopedic surgeon's nor pathologist's knife. So I solicit knowledge from people like yourself to determine if it's even advisable to consider getting into ultra light aircraft, let alone which kind.
Please feel free to pass on any other knowledge, comments, or suggestions. My wife and life insurance salesperson will appreciate it too.

Tom

hondo76 · October 5th, 2008, 11:54 PM

at last i found my fellow "wingnuts"

studio1087 · October 6th, 2008, 12:11 AM

Ultralights frighten me only because an engineer that I used to work with died flying his after a friend of his worked on the engine. Are there any real rules governing who can fly an ultralight? The terrible incident happened about 7 years ago and at that time you could fly an ultralight in Wisconsin if you could afford one. This gentleman had a hobby farm where he worked on and flew the Ultralight. His family found the thing folded around him in a corn field. That was it.

Be careful. Please.

My wife and I scuba dive. If everything goes wrong we can drop our belts and kick for the surface while exhaling. What can you do if an ultralight bends in half?

Be careful.

John

Tim Armstrong · October 6th, 2008, 02:38 AM

I think the new "light sport" category of airplane might be a better way to go. At least, for me!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-sport_aircraft

Cheers, Tim

Tim Bowen · October 6th, 2008, 03:05 AM

Speaking as a novice, not as a pro flight enthusiast, and specifically toward paragliding. Be highly aware of the harness that you'll be riding within, and make absolutely certain that you're properly seated within it before you go 'up'. Once you're up, G force is not kind as to repositioning oneself. I didn't give it proper consideration, and what can I say, an eight minute ride is an eternity when your nether regions are being absolutely destroyed. I passed out mid-flight due to the intense abdominal pain, and woke up with a mouthful of sand and vomit... it rendered me out of commission for the remainder of the day. I won't say that I'll never do it again, but I'll certainly be more cautious for the next ride, if indeed there is to be one. Most "pro" harnesses are not a problem, but those at the Redneck Riviera (Panama City Beach, FL) - Beware.

boris bubbanov · October 6th, 2008, 04:14 AM

My Dad is a (retired) aeronautical engineer and the late Harris Woods was one of his very best friends. Woody was one of the key early developers of the autogiro. (I have fond memories of "piloting" a small air cushion vehicle Woody built. I was just the right size and weight!)

After many many successful flights over many years, one afternoon Woody lost power and unlatched his safety belt to use his body weight to help steer the autogiro away from the trees and back into a safe area, and largely succeeded but the angle of the impact, combined with the harness being off, combined his level of fitness at age (60?) cause him to die as a result of the impact with the grass strip he landed on.

I could withstand all kinds of punishment as a young guy doing extreme kayaking, but with age comes limitations in what kinds of hits we can take.

Please be cautious.

jumpnblues · October 6th, 2008, 11:28 AM

Yikes! Not sure I like what I'm readin'. Bottom line is I can't afford to be laid up. As fun as it looks (in fact I think it goes beyond fun) I'm thinking maybe I'd be well advised to refrain. Dang it though...to be able to skim through tree tops or clouds and glide down to a 4 or 5 step landing...what a rush?!!!

Tom

studio1087 · October 6th, 2008, 12:13 PM

I've taken a couple pilots lessons. I've actually paid $100 to do the "discover flight" class at our farm town airport. You get to walk around a tiny Cessna and learn some mechanical things about the plane. You get to taxi the plane on grass and on the runway. In the air you get to hang on to the controls with the pilot to "feel" them and you actually get to fly for about 10 minutes. We do a couple touch and go landings at other local airports and then return to Hartford WI (where I live).

They do this affordable thing to get people hooked on lessons. I want to get my license by the time I'm 50. Right now we have other financial priorities.

My best friends dad was a pilot when I was growing up and his dad belonged to a flying club where 4 parties owned a 6 seater Barron. They drew straws at the start of every year and each family got the plane for 12 weeks out of the year. They shared all the upkeep.

There are always ads in the Milwaukee Journal for groups who need a 4th or 5th partner to buy a small plane. Lawyers are involved and it's tidy. I would love to do something like that some day with the right group of people.

John

Tim Armstrong · October 6th, 2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumpnblues

Yikes! Not sure I like what I'm readin'. Bottom line is I can't afford to be laid up. As fun as it looks (in fact I think it goes beyond fun) I'm thinking maybe I'd be well advised to refrain. Dang it though...to be able to skim through tree tops or clouds and glide down to a 4 or 5 step landing...what a rush?!!!

Tom

Have you looked into skydiving? I haven't done it myself, but I have friends who really dig it, and I doubt there's a bigger rush than stepping out the door of a perfectly good airplane!

Cheers, Tim

Tim Armstrong · October 6th, 2008, 01:15 PM

Then there's base jumping with a wing suit.

Of course, there aren't a lot of cliffs you can jump off of in Iowa...

Cheers, Tim

jimd · October 6th, 2008, 03:16 PM

I'm an aeronautical engineer. I ruled myself out of being a pilot a long time ago. It takes a huge commitment and complete vigilance to fly safely. I decided that I could not put in the time and effort to do it right. To go the experimental or ultralight route just magnifies the attention to safety one must pay. Be careful.

eryque · October 6th, 2008, 03:40 PM

I think you already know that any aviation activity involves some risk. The more popular and more well-regulated an aircraft is, the lower the risk seems to be. Paragliders, ultralights, and parachutes seem to fall into the categories of lower regulation and lower popularity, and are more risky.

That isn't necessarily to say that they're dangerous, though. As you know already, almost every accident is the result of a human failure, and I truly believe that a lot of the risk can be mitigated by careful control of the human factors; i.e. do a careful preflight and don't let anyone you don't trust work on your machine.

I wouldn't let the lack of paid sick days deter me from something fun that I was confident I could do safely. Getcherself some good instruction in good equipment and odds are excellent that you'll be fine.

E.D. Patton · October 6th, 2008, 03:40 PM

This my next door neighbor and good buddy Gabe.

He got into this a few years ago and so deep into it now that he recently took a trip to Lima, Peru where there's some great flying. I've gone out with him to watch his take offs, but you'll never get me up in one of those!

http://www.katu.com/news/24821929.html

jumpnblues · October 6th, 2008, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.D. Patton

This my next door neighbor and good buddy Gabe.

He got into this a few years ago and so deep into it now that he recently took a trip to Lima, Peru where there's some great flying. I've gone out with him to watch his take offs, but you'll never get me up in one of those!

http://www.katu.com/news/24821929.html

Wow! You shouldn't have shown me that. I clicked on the youtube video link. So cool.

Tom

scooteraz · October 30th, 2008, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

Have you looked into skydiving? I haven't done it myself, but I have friends who really dig it, and I doubt there's a bigger rush than stepping out the door of a perfectly good airplane!

Cheers, Tim

Skydiving is cool, but requires really high attention to detail and knowledge of your personal flight envelope both in freefall and under canopy.. Risks can be managed, but are there. However, really, really fun to do.

Of the ones you mentioned, I like the powered paraglider. But I know how to fly chutes. Also have SEL and Glider (Aero tow only) ratings. So, light sport would be second choice.

But then I loved 152 and Tomahawk flights in the summer.

John Backlund · October 30th, 2008, 03:37 AM

Back in the 80's, I went up with an instructor in a two-place 'Quicksilver' ultralight from a grass ultralight field a few mile east of St Paul (being two-place, it wasn't technically an 'ultralight' though).

I remember being impressed with the plane's acceleration as he started the take-off roll, the sensation of speed helped a lot by having one's butt a few inches from the grass. We flew around the field's area for about fifteen minutes when at about 1500 feet, the pilot just shut the 50 hp two-stroke engine off, put it into a steep glide and dead-sticked it onto the grass field.

Quite the ride.

October 5th, 2008, 12:07 PM	#1 (permalink)
jumpnblues Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Midwest Age: 58 Posts: 1,662	Powered paragliding, ultralight, etc... ...What is the safest of all the powered "ultra light aircraft" types of flying? I was a commercial pilot and flight instructor...35 years ago. So I'm not new to flying but as you can see, it's been awhile. I'm also self employed, so I don't get paid sick leave, if ya' get my drift. In other words I need something that has a "reasonable" safety margin provided you follow safety rules and use good judgment. I was interested in powered paragliders until someone mentioned on another forum the occasional "collapse" of the wing...yikes!! Anyway, based on all the above info, what would you recommend? Feel free to make any other comments such as "Tom you ignorant slut, what the heck are you thinking?!!!" Tom __________________ jumpnblues "Heaven St." (Original Blues Instrumental): http://www.box.net/shared/static/z96atf0zn2.mp3 http://www.myspace.com/drbluezz

October 5th, 2008, 11:54 PM	#4 (permalink)
hondo76 Tele-Holic Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: aubrey tx Age: 20 Posts: 642	at last i found my fellow "wingnuts" __________________ http://www.myspace.com/adambellar06 It aint easy being me - Chris Knight rule #1 NEVER mess with anyone's old lady, gear, food, family, or religion.

October 6th, 2008, 12:11 AM	#5 (permalink)
studio1087 Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2003 Location: Near Milwaukee Age: 44 Posts: 3,993 36 Photos	Ultralights frighten me only because an engineer that I used to work with died flying his after a friend of his worked on the engine. Are there any real rules governing who can fly an ultralight? The terrible incident happened about 7 years ago and at that time you could fly an ultralight in Wisconsin if you could afford one. This gentleman had a hobby farm where he worked on and flew the Ultralight. His family found the thing folded around him in a corn field. That was it. Be careful. Please. My wife and I scuba dive. If everything goes wrong we can drop our belts and kick for the surface while exhaling. What can you do if an ultralight bends in half? Be careful. John __________________ JLG Carry On

October 6th, 2008, 02:38 AM	#6 (permalink)
Tim Armstrong Moderator Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Berlin, Maryland, USA Age: 49 Posts: 9,668	I think the new "light sport" category of airplane might be a better way to go. At least, for me! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-sport_aircraft Cheers, Tim __________________ http://www.moodswingers.org

October 6th, 2008, 03:05 AM	#7 (permalink)
Tim Bowen Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Age: 48 Posts: 3,319	Another health concern. Speaking as a novice, not as a pro flight enthusiast, and specifically toward paragliding. Be highly aware of the harness that you'll be riding within, and make absolutely certain that you're properly seated within it before you go 'up'. Once you're up, G force is not kind as to repositioning oneself. I didn't give it proper consideration, and what can I say, an eight minute ride is an eternity when your nether regions are being absolutely destroyed. I passed out mid-flight due to the intense abdominal pain, and woke up with a mouthful of sand and vomit... it rendered me out of commission for the remainder of the day. I won't say that I'll never do it again, but I'll certainly be more cautious for the next ride, if indeed there is to be one. Most "pro" harnesses are not a problem, but those at the Redneck Riviera (Panama City Beach, FL) - Beware. __________________ "Everyone is different in how they learn, but for me, it's turning the pegs and just playing." - BB

October 5th, 2008, 07:04 PM	#2 (permalink)
Rick S Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 493	Tom, you ignorant slut......seriously, I think the bottom line on safety has mostly to do with the quality of instruction you can get, along with terrain and prevalent weather conditions you have in your area. The para wing aircraft are pretty much dead calm weather aircraft. The canopy collapse is mostly a wind and thermal activity issue. Landing one of these in any wind at all is a challenge, at best. No cross country capability, strictly an early morning around the patch ride. Anyway, I don't have any experience with these, just what I hear from others. In the fixed wing ultralights, there have been some very well engineered aircraft and some that are just death traps. The FAR 103 rules are very limiting, and antiquated. Many ultralight "type" aircraft produced today are registered experimental, or being fit into the new sport category. There is a lot to know to fly one of these safely and good training is a must. A lot of very experienced GA pilots have got into trouble with these. It seems that many of them think that if since they may have 300 hours in a Cub that they can surely handle one of these. I think the single most issue regarding safety in ultralights is that they have such a narrow flight envelope. For instance, you may have an aircraft with a stall speed of 25-30mph and a cruise of 45-50 mph. Along with this you have a very light, very high drag airframe. If you cut the power (or the engine quits) the airspeed bleeds off VERY fast. In a C152, it's like, engine quits, establish glide, ect., in an ultralight its stick forward NOW, and you're lookin' at the ground to maintain a glide. They sink like a rock. Of course, when you enter a turn your stall speed increases, making your already narrow flight envelope even tighter. A common accident in these seems to be a stall/spin in a turn to base in the pattern. Again, where a GA pilot would more likely be concerned about adding flaps and slowing down, the ultralight pilot needs to be concerned with maintaining airspeed. You know what it's like to fly a Cub or C150 in summer thermals, not much fun. Well the ultralight in those conditions is more like bull riding. In my area, there is so much prevalent wind and thermal activity, I decided that flying lawn chairs just wasn't my thing. I think the characteristics that stood out the most to me when I first flew one (with an instructor) was foremost the sink rate. Something about these things looking like a big kite with the huge wing make you think it would float, they don't. Next was the feel of the controls, they are not balanced and have a quite different feel from GA aircraft. You really feel the air pressure on the control surfaces through your stick. You should search out references for a really good instructor in your area and go take a ride to see what you think. You may really like it, may not, but it's certainly an experience you won't forget.

October 6th, 2008, 04:14 AM	#8 (permalink)
boris bubbanov Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New Orleans, LA + in the past Posts: 8,518	My Dad is a (retired) aeronautical engineer and the late Harris Woods was one of his very best friends. Woody was one of the key early developers of the autogiro. (I have fond memories of "piloting" a small air cushion vehicle Woody built. I was just the right size and weight!) After many many successful flights over many years, one afternoon Woody lost power and unlatched his safety belt to use his body weight to help steer the autogiro away from the trees and back into a safe area, and largely succeeded but the angle of the impact, combined with the harness being off, combined his level of fitness at age (60?) cause him to die as a result of the impact with the grass strip he landed on. I could withstand all kinds of punishment as a young guy doing extreme kayaking, but with age comes limitations in what kinds of hits we can take. Please be cautious. __________________ Bubban0v

October 6th, 2008, 11:28 AM	#9 (permalink)
jumpnblues Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Midwest Age: 58 Posts: 1,662	Yikes! Not sure I like what I'm readin'. Bottom line is I can't afford to be laid up. As fun as it looks (in fact I think it goes beyond fun) I'm thinking maybe I'd be well advised to refrain. Dang it though...to be able to skim through tree tops or clouds and glide down to a 4 or 5 step landing...what a rush?!!! Tom __________________ jumpnblues "Heaven St." (Original Blues Instrumental): http://www.box.net/shared/static/z96atf0zn2.mp3 http://www.myspace.com/drbluezz

October 6th, 2008, 12:13 PM	#10 (permalink)
studio1087 Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2003 Location: Near Milwaukee Age: 44 Posts: 3,993 36 Photos	I've taken a couple pilots lessons. I've actually paid $100 to do the "discover flight" class at our farm town airport. You get to walk around a tiny Cessna and learn some mechanical things about the plane. You get to taxi the plane on grass and on the runway. In the air you get to hang on to the controls with the pilot to "feel" them and you actually get to fly for about 10 minutes. We do a couple touch and go landings at other local airports and then return to Hartford WI (where I live). They do this affordable thing to get people hooked on lessons. I want to get my license by the time I'm 50. Right now we have other financial priorities. My best friends dad was a pilot when I was growing up and his dad belonged to a flying club where 4 parties owned a 6 seater Barron. They drew straws at the start of every year and each family got the plane for 12 weeks out of the year. They shared all the upkeep. There are always ads in the Milwaukee Journal for groups who need a 4th or 5th partner to buy a small plane. Lawyers are involved and it's tidy. I would love to do something like that some day with the right group of people. John __________________ JLG Carry On

October 6th, 2008, 01:15 PM	#12 (permalink)
Tim Armstrong Moderator Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Berlin, Maryland, USA Age: 49 Posts: 9,668	Then there's base jumping with a wing suit. Of course, there aren't a lot of cliffs you can jump off of in Iowa... Cheers, Tim __________________ http://www.moodswingers.org

October 6th, 2008, 03:16 PM	#13 (permalink)
jimd Tele-Holic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Age: 42 Posts: 565	I'm an aeronautical engineer. I ruled myself out of being a pilot a long time ago. It takes a huge commitment and complete vigilance to fly safely. I decided that I could not put in the time and effort to do it right. To go the experimental or ultralight route just magnifies the attention to safety one must pay. Be careful.

October 6th, 2008, 03:40 PM	#14 (permalink)
eryque Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: albany, ny [not chicago] Posts: 7,117 44 Photos	I think you already know that any aviation activity involves some risk. The more popular and more well-regulated an aircraft is, the lower the risk seems to be. Paragliders, ultralights, and parachutes seem to fall into the categories of lower regulation and lower popularity, and are more risky. That isn't necessarily to say that they're dangerous, though. As you know already, almost every accident is the result of a human failure, and I truly believe that a lot of the risk can be mitigated by careful control of the human factors; i.e. do a careful preflight and don't let anyone you don't trust work on your machine. I wouldn't let the lack of paid sick days deter me from something fun that I was confident I could do safely. Getcherself some good instruction in good equipment and odds are excellent that you'll be fine. __________________ my blog: eryque.blogspot.com Updated 9.17.08! Subscribe_____________________

October 6th, 2008, 03:40 PM	#15 (permalink)
E.D. Patton Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 909	This my next door neighbor and good buddy Gabe. He got into this a few years ago and so deep into it now that he recently took a trip to Lima, Peru where there's some great flying. I've gone out with him to watch his take offs, but you'll never get me up in one of those! http://www.katu.com/news/24821929.html

October 30th, 2008, 03:37 AM	#18 (permalink)
John Backlund Tele-Holic Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: South Dakota Posts: 613 13 Photos	Back in the 80's, I went up with an instructor in a two-place 'Quicksilver' ultralight from a grass ultralight field a few mile east of St Paul (being two-place, it wasn't technically an 'ultralight' though). I remember being impressed with the plane's acceleration as he started the take-off roll, the sensation of speed helped a lot by having one's butt a few inches from the grass. We flew around the field's area for about fifteen minutes when at about 1500 feet, the pilot just shut the 50 hp two-stroke engine off, put it into a steep glide and dead-sticked it onto the grass field. Quite the ride.