a childs exposure to religion? (not a religious thread but advice)

[evol04gt]

my wife was brought up for the most part catholic. (not really practicing BUT she mentions the father here and there and so on)... i wasnt raised with any religion other than when i chose to go to my families Lutheran church.

our childcare privider up until preschool started was Johovas Witness (not the overbearingkind though...) her preschool isa christian based preschool..



i have no issues with her learning the basics of a few different view points.. i would preffer her to have a round about idea on different faiths and her to choose what suits her best as she grows.

some people really turn their nose up at you when you do not have a "church" per say... i find it all a little silly really because the whole point is faith- i understand that church and a set faith really helps bring a family together, but i also want my child to not judge or question other peoples beliefs..... i know this can be a touchy subject and it IS NOT to be any form of a debate-or whos beliefs are what... {my main issue is there are a lot ofpeople i know that really have a -my way is right and anything else is wrong- approach}-more so a "am i making faith a harder thing for my child?" or "am i doing the best to help her have and open and respectful mind?"



grrrrrr the trials are tribulations of parenting......

[slauson slim]

Our son attends Catholic grammar school, and will likely go to a Catholic high school. I'm Catholic, my spouse is Presbyterian. We are fortunate enough to be able to afford parochial school.

We both believe that, in addition to the benefits of a smaller school and a school community, our son benefits from learning a system of beliefs, learning right from wrong and getting a grounding in Western Judeo-Christian culture - the dominant cultural belief of our country. In his class, and in the school, are protestant, Hindu and Muslim children. His school teaches about other religions - he's learning about Islam right now - and respect for other religions and cultures. We teach him about tolerance, respect for others and try to imbue a consistent moral view.

Ideally he will be grounded with a system of values, and knowledge of other systems and values, be comfortable with others, and will be able to make good choices in life and respect others and live in a multi-cultural society.

[vjf1968]

Lapsed Catholic here. The upside of having a church or being part of a congregation is to give a community stability and at its best is to give the parishioner a sense of something bigger than themselves. Unfortunately petty human jealousies and overwhelming hubris stain the fabric of what is considered to be true faith.

Since your wife was raised Catholic maybe a visit to a local church and a meeting with a priest to just discuss this very topic might help. And then maybe a Lutheran minster should be next, or even a Rabbi. If you have a better understanding what is right for you and your family than you can make an informed decision. Of course this is all up to you.

[sax4blues]

Originally Posted by evol04gt

..but i also want my child to not judge or question other peoples beliefs.....

It is interesting that if we inserted any other topic in place of beliefs we would very much want our children to question and have judgement. Didn't the majority of mid-lifers and younger grow up with the mantra of question everything and make your own judgments? I would take it as a compliment if someone said I had sound judgement.

[T_red7882]

Move to california, expose him to all religions. Once a child is 14 or so they will decide they like religion or don't. Its best not to force it.

[Frontier9]

Here are my views - they may or may not work for anyone else:

Teach your children right from wrong, respect & empathy for others, and to give back to society.

Don't force religion or spirituality on them - this is a choice that is better left to a mature mind.

[Jakedog]

Originally Posted by Frontier9

Here's my view - it may or may not work for anyone else:

Teach your children right from wrong, respect & empathy for others, and to give back to society.

Don't force religion or spirituality on them - this is a choice that is better left to a mature mind.

+1,000,000

[evol04gt]

Thanks for the input guys! I am really glad this isn't a qeustionable topic!

[eryque]

My first student teaching was in a catholic school. One thing that shocked me was the lack of spirituality I found in the administration and staff, and how little spirituality seeped into instruction or any of the atmosphere around the school.

The kids did take various theology courses, but lots of public schools offer courses in world religions too. I'm not convinced that the school did any better job of instilling anything spiritual into kids that they couldn't get elsewhere.

The one good thing was that this was in a pretty rough neighborhood and there were very, very few issues with behavior, truancy, violence, etc. in the school. The families who were sending their kids there were mostly doing a really good job of giving their kids the right values. Friends who have taught at the nearby public school say that it can be kind of rough, and a lot of the kids aren't getting the direction they need at home.

[yegbert]

The reason religions tend to have notions of certain beliefs being correct is because they have a basis in belief in the existence of something that exists with characteristics that are what they are, independent of human invention and opinion. Religions tend to presume they are the invention of god, not the invention of man. Sorta like nature or science. It exists and we can discover and study its principles and workings, but we can't define it to be other than what it is.

But religion being based on a belief in something not in the physical realm, outside of nature and science, the principles of a specific religion can not generally be proven in a way that can be universally agreed upon. So men articulate what they believe religion to be, and others have to evaluate and decide for themselves whether to believe in any of them.

And from the perspective of someone who is somewhat outside a specific religion but hoping for exposure for themselves or their children to value systems that have benefits other than the same end goals espoused by a religion, you end up picking and choosing as best you can from what is available. Like shopping for a fast food meal for lunch one day within the confines of your lunch hour, you have to take what is available close to you. I don't want to go into the fast food business in order to be able to have fast food. If McDonalds and Wendy's are close enough but not my ideal, while Burger King is preferable but too far away, I have to pick between McDonalds or Wendy's. If I envision that a burger made with flavor, add-ons and condiments like Chinese food is my ideal but nobody has a fast food burger place making such food, then I can't have that. If my ideal for my child is that he go to a school that teaches parts 1 and 2 of religion A but not part 3, and my only choices are schools that teach all three or just parts 1 and 3, then I have to adapt somehow.

[jhundt]

actually this could rapidly become a questionable topic... so far the response has been thoughtful and considerate, but that could change in an instant.

i have no issues with her learning the basics of a few different view points.. i would preffer her to have a round about idea on different faiths and her to choose what suits her best as she grows.

some people really turn their nose up at you when you do not have a "church" per say... i find it all a little silly really because the whole point is faith- i understand that church and a set faith really helps bring a family together, but i also want my child to not judge or question other peoples beliefs..... i know this can be a touchy subject and it IS NOT to be any form of a debate-or whos beliefs are what... {my main issue is there are a lot ofpeople i know that really have a -my way is right and anything else is wrong- approach}-more so a "am i making faith a harder thing for my child?" or "am i doing the best to help her have and open and respectful mind?"

I have underlined a line in your own text because I want to point out that FAITH is believing in something that can't, isn't, and need-not be explained.

Letting your child learn about all religions is the best thing you can do (IMHO) but it will probably not satisfy those who have FAITH. Your child may grow up to embrace one religion, or to discard all religion. Many religions do not accept this kind of self-service acceptance. FAITH is not a question of shopping around for the religion that most suits your needs. That is a "consumer-society" adaptation to make religion more appealing and less demanding.

FAITH requires true belief, in the face of all detractors. Do you believe 100% in Jesus; do you believe 100% in Mohammed; do you believe 100% in Krishna, Vishnu, Buddha, Zoroaster, etc...

This is the power and glory of belief. It is also the weakness and shame of belief.

I support you in your willingness to let your child study many religious beliefs. I think this would be a great course for all USA elementary students - "comparative religion". If all kids in the whole world studied this we could maybe avoid some of the problems we face today.


But if/when the time comes around for your kid to find a true FAITH I hope you will be understanding too.

[Unseen]

Originally Posted by jhundt

I have underlined a line in your own text because I want to point out that FAITH is believing in something that can't, isn't, and need-not be explained.

It was Kierkegaard who took this idea to its ultimate conclusion, which is that the greater the unlikeliness of what you believe, the greater your faith. To believe something which is objectively and provably false, would require the greatest faith of all.

So, as a result, people who labor to prove that their view is true in an objective way (and I won't be specific here for fear of getting the topic closed) are the people whose faith is lacking.

I'm not saying that's what I think, just that Kierkegaard had something to say on the topic.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Seems like you're assuming that religious families (especially Christians) are healthier than other families, starting with: "I understand that church and a set faith really helps bring a family together...."

I can't believe this thread has been allowed to get this far! Can we talk about smoking in church now?

[E.D. Patton]

Originally Posted by Frontier9

Here are my views - they may or may not work for anyone else:

Teach your children right from wrong, respect & empathy for others, and to give back to society.

Don't force religion or spirituality on them - this is a choice that is better left to a mature mind.

This is all solid parenting advice.

I think our kids learn a lot from the examples set for them by their parents and the authority figures that they are in contact with daily.

I'll always be grateful for the positive, moral influence of the folks in the church I grew up in. I know a lot of people who've been permanently soured to the church by negative experiences.

Religion is like a knife. It's neither inherently good or evil. you can use it to cut bread, or you can use it to kill a man. The choice is ours.

[danieldeblanke]

i guess the mods are sleeping?

[Unseen]

Originally Posted by danieldeblanke

i guess the mods are sleeping?

All engaged in a group prayer session, no doubt.

[endzone]

You can't honestly expect to get a good set of answers from a bunch of guitar players who are forbidden to speak openly about this topic, can you? The open discussion you need to make a wise decision can't happen here. It seems this is an important issue to you and you want to do what's right for your child. It deserves some serious face to face with people who can openly give you their honest opinions and feelings. Go talk to some church leaders or pastors. Talk to others that think like you. Talk to others who don't think like you do....you get the idea. Just make sure you do this with an open mind. Some people are sincere about their faith for a reason.

[danieldeblanke]

i should start a "exposing children to politics" thread

[evol04gt]

the topic at hand isnt about religion though... its about how far you intervein into your childs molding....


people are starting to take it away from the point... i think the reason religion is banned from most chat areas is that it becomes a discussion of beliefs rather than good idea/bad idea... im sure that if this thread gets to the religion vs religion topic- it will get locked and i will get a pm or email about an infraction..



i was asking the parents here about any thoughts on guidance.. i wish my child to have the knowelege to make her own decision on her beliefs and her faith, and not avoid filling her with my beliefs(which MOST parents that i have spoken with seem to do).

i am new to being around a christian school so i am just trying to get unbiased thoughts from others. usually most musicians are more ecclectic type of person than your average joe.


i have not stated my personal beliefs on the subject of religion- and wont--- i just was inquiring upon thoughts.


some family members of mine believe the EXACT things their parents believe- now was that by default or by choice? most likely default...

but if i show a lack of guidence- will my child resist the whole idea?

its kinda like the whole "will my daughter pick up guitar" i want that to be her choice and try to avoid pushing it on her. BUT the fact that i am heavily involved in it- will she do it to be like me, or if i push it on her, will she refuse to rebel??? if i say i dont care if she is interested or not, and want her to develop on her own---- i am being as unbiased as i can be... the problem about the true topic in question is that i was not directly exposed to religion at a young age so i do not know what that experience will lead her.




i think its a fair question and within the relm of our guidelines.

[SimpleOne]

Tolerance and peace in all things...oh and "you are a fluke of the universe and, whether you believe it or not, the universe is laughing behind your back" (my apologies to the OP!!) ...and I do believe (have faith) in moderators, just never seen one!!

[evol04gt]

no apologies needed.... nothing offends me.

[blacklinefish]

I think the proper term here is indoctrination and for some reason that word always has negative connotations. It is not a negative word, though, in my opinion. It takes indoctrination to teach children respect, empathy, etc., as Frontier9 pointed out above.

People can go overboard with indoctrination, though. When you want to shape your child's spiritual path, moral/ethical framework, religious association, political identity, sports affiliation, and preference of music, etc. - well, you should probably economize and choose which one or two of those are the most important (and let the rest go).

[sax4blues]

Originally Posted by evol04gt

the topic at hand isnt about religion though... its about how far you intervein into your childs molding...

Within this framework do you intervene in their:

Education ( just let them decide as they go if traditional school is good for them)
Health ( just let them decide what food best fits their personality)
Respect for others ( If 8th grade Johnny wants to take pictures of the neighbor girl naked and she says its ok, then they can decide, they respect each other)

Originally Posted by Frontier9
Here's my view - it may or may not work for anyone else: Teach your children right from wrong, respect & empathy for others, and to give back to society.

? Who decides right from wrong? This doesn't seem to be universal.
? Respect, reference 8th grade Johnny above. More than respect her, he loves her.
? Is giving back to society universal? Would I be questioned or judged if my beliefs do not include giving anything to anyone? On what basis should i give? The only place I see everyone give is taxes, and I mainly hear complaining about that.
-------------
For people that believe in something it would be natural to share that with their children. My wife believes strongly in continuing education and she actively guides our children that way. For people that don't believe in religion/God/spirituality/... whatever, I don't see why they would be a strong advocate for their children in this area.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by danieldeblanke

i should start a "exposing children to politics" thread

But it wouldn't be political, right?

I think they are sleeping!!

[robbysturgis]

Originally Posted by evol04gt

the topic at hand isnt about religion though... its about how far you intervein into your childs molding....

Don't intervene in your childs education, take control of it. If you are not sure what to do or say, ask someone for advice.

Originally Posted by evol04gt

people are starting to take it away from the point... i think the reason religion is banned from most chat areas is that it becomes a discussion of beliefs rather than good idea/bad idea... im sure that if this thread gets to the religion vs religion topic- it will get locked and i will get a pm or email about an infraction..

It's good advice to stay away from Religion in this discussion, as well as in your child's upbringing. Each child is different and one spiritual awakening is not the same in all.

Originally Posted by evol04gt

i was asking the parents here about any thoughts on guidance.. i wish my child to have the knowelege to make her own decision on her beliefs and her faith, and not avoid filling her with my beliefs(which MOST parents that i have spoken with seem to do).

This Dad thinks it is important to tell your children what you believe. If nothing else, it helps in keeping peace in the house...for example "your Dad doesn't use cuss words in the house".

In general start with "Truth" - that is - in all subject, be they UFOs, Guitars, or Religion, stress the truth with your child...what do you know for a fact. I say: "I've never seen a creature from outer space, but I've seen lights in the sky which I couldn't identify." or "I think the Telecaster is one of the most beautiful and versatile guitars, but that other one there is awful pretty". or "God created both the Cardinal and the Blue Jay - both are beautiful birds - he created them differently so that He could tell them apart."

Demonstrate honesty and trust with your child and they will respect you for it.

Allow them to make mistakes in their life to experiment, and help them clean up after their mistakes.

Teach them something of value, and applaud their success.

Demonstrate your empathy for others...they'll get it.

Tell them that you hope there is a power in the universe higher than your own, and that you want to experience that power after you die. This is the essence of religion.

[SimpleOne]

Originally Posted by evol04gt

no apologies needed.... nothing offends me.

Cool...thanks...I just try to remember to tell myself "I am not your friend I am your parent" with my three , not so little, ones. Seems an important part of this conversation is helping offspring develope into self guided people with a strong sense of right/wrong, a highly developed conscious. And to have the stick with it-ness of a strong will and self discipline. We should all be so lucky as to have had parents who deliberate as you do...

[Rumble]

Originally Posted by Frontier9

Teach your children right from wrong, respect & empathy for others, and to give back to society.

Don't force religion or spirituality on them - this is a choice that is better left to a mature mind.

Well said.

Originally Posted by Unseen

It was Kierkegaard who took this idea to its ultimate conclusion, which is that the greater the unlikeliness of what you believe, the greater your faith. To believe something which is objectively and provably false, would require the greatest faith of all.

This is why all religions could be considered cults.

Between the ages of 3 and 7, after children have learned to speak but before they have a strong understanding of the natural world, they are particularly susceptible to fantastic beliefs and indoctrination. They'll believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and many other imaginary and fictitious entities. If they are indoctrinated into believing things there is no evidence for, it handicaps their intellectual development. They can still learn to read and do math just fine, but their ability to understand science and history is compromised because they cannot adequately weigh and process evidence. There are millions of adults in our country who function this way.

Anyone who indoctrinates their children is irresponsible IMO. If they come to religious beliefs on their own as adults, that's just fine. But good parents don't present absolute "truths" to their children as fact when they are not actually fact.

[robbysturgis]

Originally Posted by Rumble

They'll believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and many other imaginary and fictitious entities.

Wait! What? Imaginary, and fictitious Santa? The Tooth Fairy is not real?

Next you'll be telling me that Superman can't fly...and Wonder Woman's brassier isn't real....

[777Brad]

Originally Posted by sax4blues

Within this framework do you intervene in their:

Education ( just let them decide as they go if traditional school is good for them)
Health ( just let them decide what food best fits their personality)
Respect for others ( If 8th grade Johnny wants to take pictures of the neighbor girl naked and she says its ok, then they can decide, they respect each other)

+1 for sax4blues

I'll take that one step further. If something matters in your child's life, you should strongly desire to help them along in that arena, right?

If there is no "higher being" than training your child in that way is a big joke & a complete waste of time.

If there is a "higher being", and your eternal destiny depends on your beliefs,(as all faiths believe) you had better get yourself & your family straight.


That's about as far as I dare go.

[Rizo]

I (and my brother and most everyone I grew up with) went to a Pentecostal pre-school and they never tried to teach their religion to us that I remember. We did pray before lunch, but I don't see where they didn't do anything to stifle anyone or force any beliefs on us.

It was good for me, I went into kindergarten already reading, doing math, knowing how to behave in class, etc.

[getbent]

Lets see... we had the majority of people who are mature and can think clearly enough to address the question and the usual 3-4 children who have to participate so that things derail. Okay, this thread was edgy to begin with and I saw it when it started and I wanted to see where it would go. It was going fine except for the usual 3-4 guys who always stir it up... so, if you don't like a thread, do what the adults do... click the little triangle and report it instead of posting 'are the mods asleep?' crapola. We are not asleep we're trying to see how folks CAN behave and be adult and civil. As it is... I'm locking this thread...

The same people who always beg for latitude are the ones who complain when we give some... Classic!