Musician issues - Did I handle this well?

[OutlawSteph1975]

So all the pickers I have a class with were waiting outside before class time, and the fiddle player starts talking about a band he wants to form. He'll be the leader. It will be "old time" music, and he just wants to play community events. He doesn't like open jams because he's met too many people who play sloppy and don't learn the songs properly but plow through them. He's been playing fiddle 14 years and is pretty good.

So the fiddle player says, "it's hard to find good banjo players". And I'm thinking to myself.. I'm getting pretty competent on banjo and would love to be in a band. The mandolin picker shows up, who is just learning. The fiddle player didn't come out and ask me if I was interested in being in his band, but he asks the mandolin player. So I said I was interested and gave him my phone number and told him I play guitar too.

We went inside and it was basically just me and the fiddle player playing all the breaks and kicking off all the songs. The mando. picker couldn't play a solo on our songs which we've been working on for several months.. all bluegrass/old time standards like Old Joe Clark and Soldier's Joy. (I'm not being judgmental here. I like teaching people and encouraging in a classroom setting). Anyhow, if he calls me about the band, great.. if not.. that's okay too. But I was thinking, well why didn't he think of asking me before I asked him.

[jjh37854]

who knows, doesn't matter, you gotta dive in, now you are involved, thats the important part.

my take is, "dont ask, dont get"

[klasaine]

I think you handled it just fine.
As stupid as this sounds ... he probably didn't ask you because - you're a 'girl'.
I'm of course assuming it was a guy whom we're talking about(?)

[Derek S]

Could be a million reasons why he didn't ask you. I wouldn't worry about it.

[getbent]

klasaine has got it.

[stephwills]

Originally Posted by getbent

klasaine has got it.

+1. And if he has issues with this, you're better off without him.

I remember playing the scene in Lubbock about 15 years ago. During a break, I was looking over the list of bands that'd be playing this particular venue during the next month and wondering Who are the Dixie Chicks? Never heard of them ... I wonder if they need a dummer ... (No, I never followed up, and don't believe it would've mattered.)

If this guy has a "chick" problem, make your own path. You can do it. It sounds like you're surrounded with enough talent that he believes it doable. Do it without him if you have to. The world is yours.

[cowboytwang]

Originally Posted by OutlawSteph1975

So all the pickers I have a class with were waiting outside before class time, and the fiddle player starts talking about a band he wants to form. He'll be the leader. It will be "old time" music, and he just wants to play community events. He doesn't like open jams because he's met too many people who play sloppy and don't learn the songs properly but plow through them. He's been playing fiddle 14 years and is pretty good.

So the fiddle player says, "it's hard to find good banjo players". And I'm thinking to myself.. I'm getting pretty competent on banjo and would love to be in a band. The mandolin picker shows up, who is just learning. The fiddle player didn't come out and ask me if I was interested in being in his band, but he asks the mandolin player. So I said I was interested and gave him my phone number and told him I play guitar too.

We went inside and it was basically just me and the fiddle player playing all the breaks and kicking off all the songs. The mando. picker couldn't play a solo on our songs which we've been working on for several months.. all bluegrass/old time standards like Old Joe Clark and Soldier's Joy. (I'm not being judgmental here. I like teaching people and encouraging in a classroom setting). Anyhow, if he calls me about the band, great.. if not.. that's okay too. But I was thinking, well why didn't he think of asking me before I asked him.

Don't ever second guess yourself in these situations. And more important don't ever, ever try to figure out what a fiddle player is thinkin', especially after he says he wants to start a band and be the "Band Leader".
When someone wants to be "THE" band leader, that's your first clue that there is something mentally wrong them.

[Stackabones]

He probably thought that if he asked you that you might think he was was hitting on you.

[garytelecastor]

OutlawSteph-if you were in Minnesota you could play in my band and I would've asked you first. I think Klasaine has it right. And I have to say that isn't very enlightened of the fiddle player.
Move to the Land of 10000 taxes and you can play in our band.

[MandyMarie]

Originally Posted by klasaine

I think you handled it just fine.
As stupid as this sounds ... he probably didn't ask you because - you're a 'girl'.
I'm of course assuming it was a guy whom we're talking about(?)

+1.

I've been in that same exact situation a million times. But once you really get out there and prove yourself people start to take you more seriously as a musician...I'm not saying he's "anti-girl" or anything hahaha, I just think he may not have considered the fact you could seriously play - or did he know already?

Some men are without a doubt "anti-girl" and take it as a blow to their ego when you do anything other than play rhythm behind them...and those are the guys you don't wanna be around anyway! Or they're at least the ones who make you try harder ;o)

He's going to be kickin' himself soon, my friend! You handled it great!

[getbent]

I think he knows you can kick his butt and it is a threat. You are smart, have great musical taste, are probably easy to get along with... and can probably motivate people to play together... these qualities are wonderful to have unless you have an insecure BAND LEADER... then you are a threat.

Hey, if you move out here, I'll be in YOUR band!

[teledude66]

Fiddle player = Drummer ???

[CrazyManAndy]

All this hatin' on fiddle players...yeah, let's hang 'em high!

.....*wait a sec...I am a fiddle player*



I agree with Derek S.

CMA

[vjf1968]

You handled it fine. However, I would be a little wary about someone stating that they want to be the BAND LEADER. Sounds a little egotistical. I was always under the assumption that the role of leader is something that you gradually fall into whether you like it or not.

[geddins]

Originally Posted by teledude66

Fiddle player = Drummer ???

Fiddle player = Frontman??? Those type USUALLY wanna be the "leader"


And I think you handled it perfectly as well....great advice already given.

[Jakedog]

Originally Posted by vjf1968

You handled it fine. However, I would be a little wary about someone stating that they want to be the BAND LEADER. Sounds a little egotistical. I was always under the assumption that the role of leader is something that you gradually fall into whether you like it or not.

First, you handled it great. I wouldn't have done it any differently, male or female.

Second, a player approaching the forming of a band from the standpoint of wanting to be "The Leader" is not necessarily egotistical. Sometimes the only way to be able to do just what you want, is to put yourself in charge, and form your own band, under your own rules. I finally did this, and don't regret it one bit. After sixteen years of playing in bands that never made me 100% happy (although some were great, and I have no regrets) I just decided that the only way I was ever going to be 100% happy was to do things my way, and find good players who were OK with that. You'd be surprised how many great players are more than OK with it. But it comes with a LOT of responsibility, and accountability. For one person to designate themselves "leader", form a band, and be successful, they have to realize, and be willing to accept that all of the responsibility for making things go right, and all of the accountability when things go wrong, falls squarely on their shoulders.

I'm not always great at handling everything I need to handle, but I work really hard at it, my guys see it, and they respect it. Because I treat them well, and keep them working, and respect their contributions (musically) in return, and give a fair listen when they have input about anything, musical or otherwise, the approach has worked great. For several years now it's been a win/win situation that gets better all the time.

[robbysturgis]

Originally Posted by MandyMarie

Some men are without a doubt "anti-girl" and take it as a blow to their ego when you do anything other than play rhythm behind them...and those are the guys you don't wanna be around anyway! Or they're at least the ones who make you try harder ;o)[/i]

Some men do not ask women - who are not their wives - to join them in anything.

Some men don't have women's phone numbers in their cell phone, rollodexes, or black books.

Some me are shy when it comes to meeting and talking to women.

Most men would love to be around, and talk to, and play good music with women.

[SixStringSlinger]

It's possible (though not necessary) that he didn't ask you 'cause you're a woman, whether that means he thinks you can't play 'cause you're a woman, or his wife (girlfriend or whatever)'s radar is just a touch too sensitive. I say run with it. If he doesn't call you, fine. If he does, go for it. If that goes well, cool. If not (be it for the "woman reason" or anything else), bail and move on.

[CatfishStudios]

Sometimes egotistical maniacal band leaders have good ideas, look at James Brown. I look at a band like a human body...couple arms, couple legs, and a head...that head is NOT the job I want, and I look for someone who does want that kinda spot....Ive been in bands with no "leader" that just flopped around before dying...ya need a head! Your bieng a Girl should have nothing to do with it..its your chops and attitude that count...if you are interested in playing with him..jump on it like ya did...but be aware that he intends to direct the band in a direction he has predetermined.

[robbysturgis]

Originally Posted by OutlawSteph1975

He'll be the leader. It will be "old time" music, and he just wants to play community events.

By being the "leader" does that mean:

1) his name is on the marquee - "Tight Wad and the Bunched Panties"
2) he gets the community gigs
3) he is the music director
4) he hires and fires the musicians
5) he pays the musicians
6) he chooses which bowling shirt to wear tonight
7) he manages the band
8) he gets to choose which musician's instrument he overdubs on the record

[superchicken_VI]

You handled it fine.

Personally, I'd rather be in a band with girls than guys. I enjoy the company of women more than the company of men. They tend to be better mannered (much less noisy gas issues), certainly better-looking, definitely better-smelling (see noisy gas issues again), and more attuned to those around them. Ego is typically less of an issue. Importantly for music, women are typically more emotional--vital to good performance.

As a music major in college, there were a lot of women in our music department. There was no technical superiority of either sex, but the men were more aggressive and sought out more playing time. The guys formed groups and played. The girls tended to work more on their individual works--much less group-play. This always aggrivated me, because I'd much rather be in a brass quartet with 3 cute college chicks who could play like hell than with 3 smelly college guys who could play like hell.

Good for you for putting yourself out there an playing. If some of the guys don't get it, don't worry about it. Somebody will. That somebody will be better to hang out with than an ego-dude who doesn't want to play with girls.

[teledude66]

A philosophical question to Steph or any other lady that would care to answer.

He turns you down which would you rather him tell you?

A. because you're a woman

B. because he thinks you're not good enough

I mean both would not be cool, but which pixxes you less?

[mudbean]

Originally Posted by robbysturgis

"Tight Wad and the Bunched Panties"

HAR!! Ouch, you made coffee come out my nose!

mud

[rahbee]

I kind of agree with the intimidation issue. I mean when I decided that I wanted to start a band my buddy was a perfect choice for bass because he is just good enough to get by but not so good that he is going to get upset when i decide to switch things around. It may sound egotistical, but it's just kind of the way i want my band to run. I have serious doubts with my own playing so introducing somebody that is far superior to me would make me a little uneasy i guess.

[vjf1968]

Originally Posted by Jakedog

First, you handled it great. I wouldn't have done it any differently, male or female.

Second, a player approaching the forming of a band from the standpoint of wanting to be "The Leader" is not necessarily egotistical. Sometimes the only way to be able to do just what you want, is to put yourself in charge, and form your own band, under your own rules. I finally did this, and don't regret it one bit. After sixteen years of playing in bands that never made me 100% happy (although some were great, and I have no regrets) I just decided that the only way I was ever going to be 100% happy was to do things my way, and find good players who were OK with that. You'd be surprised how many great players are more than OK with it. But it comes with a LOT of responsibility, and accountability. For one person to designate themselves "leader", form a band, and be successful, they have to realize, and be willing to accept that all of the responsibility for making things go right, and all of the accountability when things go wrong, falls squarely on their shoulders.

I'm not always great at handling everything I need to handle, but I work really hard at it, my guys see it, and they respect it. Because I treat them well, and keep them working, and respect their contributions (musically) in return, and give a fair listen when they have input about anything, musical or otherwise, the approach has worked great. For several years now it's been a win/win situation that gets better all the time.

I'm just going on what my experieces have been in Philadelphia and the local scene. I have been in bands where the "leader" blown opprtunities with booking agents because the "leader" wanted to be in charge and not relinquish some control on booking better paying gigs. In other words do whats best for him and not the band. I don't have a problem with the idea of a "leader", you need to have one person to make the decisions or else nothing would get done but a band is communal effort and everybody has to be on the same page and that is really difficult to do especailly dealing with over inflated egos. Just my 2 cents

[vjf1968]

Originally Posted by OutlawSteph1975

So all the pickers I have a class with were waiting outside before class time, and the fiddle player starts talking about a band he wants to form. He'll be the leader. It will be "old time" music, and he just wants to play community events. He doesn't like open jams because he's met too many people who play sloppy and don't learn the songs properly but plow through them. He's been playing fiddle 14 years and is pretty good.

So the fiddle player says, "it's hard to find good banjo players". And I'm thinking to myself.. I'm getting pretty competent on banjo and would love to be in a band. The mandolin picker shows up, who is just learning. The fiddle player didn't come out and ask me if I was interested in being in his band, but he asks the mandolin player. So I said I was interested and gave him my phone number and told him I play guitar too.

We went inside and it was basically just me and the fiddle player playing all the breaks and kicking off all the songs. The mando. picker couldn't play a solo on our songs which we've been working on for several months.. all bluegrass/old time standards like Old Joe Clark and Soldier's Joy. (I'm not being judgmental here. I like teaching people and encouraging in a classroom setting). Anyhow, if he calls me about the band, great.. if not.. that's okay too. But I was thinking, well why didn't he think of asking me before I asked him.

There is another reason: band drama.
I experienced that one in a band where the guitar player (male) and the singer (female) were having a fling. The only problem was the singer was married. Needless to say when all hell broke loose the band broke up anfd freindships lost.

[woodman]

i like the fact that you played it cool and didn't beg. that's class. if the gig doesn't pan out for the reasons enumerated above, that's probably a Good Thing in the long run.

[giginthesky]

"he'll be the leader". count me out right there. i'm doing a solo project and have about 10 songs recorded so far. i've rounded up some good musician friends and we're playing them out live. my only instruction to them is, this is the way i recorded them, but, play them however you want. guess i'm no "leader".
as for the girl thing, crap, i can't keep a good girl musician. my last bass player bought a business and started a family. (just had the baby last week as a matter of fact) and another girl, charlotte, moved back to texas to be with her family. remember that name btw. charlotte is easily the most naturally gifted musician i've ever met. and at 23 years old, the world is hers!

[FiddlinJim]

Steph,
In my ~30 years of being an old-time fiddler and clawhammer banjo player, I can tell you that many in this particular musical world can be "Socially Alternately-Abled" (odd ducks) perhaps meeself included. I mean, c'mon, we listen to scratchy, archaic recordings from the 20's and 30's on our iPods. It's got to do a little something to the neurons. Besides, us clawhammer players gots creepy long fingernails.

All that self-deprecation crap aside, old-time fiddlers usually like a particular style of banjo playing. Perhaps, he's a hardcore old-time guy and you show up with a resonator banjo and finger picks... Or maybe he's really more of a bluegrass style guy and you show up with an 1890's open-back Stewart or something. That kind of situation could give a stronger a first impression than the gender of the person holding the banjo. In my travels, old-time music has always been a really well-gender-integrated world and has been for a long time.

Of course, the guy might just be a jerk and you're better off finding someone more fun to play music with. After all, you can't expect to play old-time music and make any money, so fun's all you got...

[Chrismeyer]

Is he married? He may be afraid to have a girl in his band because his wife wouldn't be big on it.
Very simple .

[OutlawSteph1975]

You guys are funny.

He's not married and probably doesn't think I'm too cute.. so there won't be any of that. lol. I've run into guys who hold different people to different standards, and the "you play good for a girl" attitude. It doesn't bother me much, but I don't think he's one of those either. The proof is in the pudding because we sounded good playing together.

Jim, you might be onto something.. maybe he wants an open back player. I'm really into Ralph Stanley style which I hear as sort of a bridge between "mountain music" and Scruggs style. So I think it would work. He's heard me play some of that. I would never be insulted if someone honesty thought I wasn't good enough. I got the impression he wanted people who weren't as good as him.

BTW, here he is on the right...

[stephwills]

Originally Posted by OutlawSteph1975

I got the impression he wanted people who weren't as good as him.

Well then, you've been complimented! lol. Seriously, you're better off without that attitude in your life.

[robbysturgis]

Originally Posted by OutlawSteph1975

BTW, here he is on the right...

Mine, or yours?

[geddins]

Originally Posted by robbysturgis

Mine, or yours?

Umm....that's "your'n"

[getbent]

Yeah, but what is he doin' in front of my cabin?

[sean79]

Originally Posted by getbent

Yeah, but what is he doin' in front of my cabin?

So, they call you "B.J." Roberts... there's got to be a story behind that.

[mudbean]

Originally Posted by OutlawSteph1975

You guys are funny.

He ... probably doesn't think I'm too cute..

Why not?

And, yes, we are funny ... but not funny like, "Ha Ha Ha" - funny like, "What's that smell?"

mud

[getbent]

Originally Posted by sean79

So, they call you "B.J." Roberts... there's got to be a story behind that.

big johnson.

there is a story to it too... but, heck, it is a long story and I try not to 'blow my own horn' although, in this case I probably could. Carry on...

I've heard some say 'bulbous' and 'brave' and one girl with a stutter said 'bigamous' ... but it is materially the same.

[mudbean]

Originally Posted by getbent

big johnson.

there is a story to it too... but, heck, it is a long story and I try not to 'blow my own horn' although, in this case I probably could. Carry on...

I've heard some say 'bulbous' and 'brave' and one girl with a stutter said 'bigamous' ... but it is materially the same.

HAR!! You're good, man!

mud

[garytelecastor]

Originally Posted by FiddlinJim

Steph,
In my ~30 years of being an old-time fiddler and clawhammer banjo player, I can tell you that many in this particular musical world can be "Socially Alternately-Abled" (odd ducks) perhaps meeself included.

FJ-I refer to myself as Alternatively Shaky Socially.