Truth in advertising: the Mac guy vs. PC guy - Page 3

Unseen · May 31st, 2008, 05:45 AM

The problem is that there is so much Mac brand loyalty that it may interfere with comparison. If I am a gung-ho Mac person, I'm likely to minimize any problems I DO have with Mac for fear of making my loyalty seem misplaced.

Mac has two problems in my view: 1) no serious price competition/discounting unless you're a student; 2) less attempt at backward compatibility than with PC's. All too often, the only way to upgrade in the Mac world isn't to add-in card or attach something to a USB port, it's to throw your current Mac on The Trashheap of History and buy whatever is new.

For a similar reason, as a photographer I stick with Nikon vs. Canon. Nikon tries to be backward compatible (decades old lenses can be attached to the latest camera) whereas Canon often creates an entire new camera/lens system that replaces and obsolesces what came before.

JayFreddy · May 31st, 2008, 06:48 AM

I'm in the market for a new computer.

My wife is Japanese, and we use XP International Edition. That way, she can log on and the OS comes up in Japanese, but when I log on, it comes up in English.

Is there a comparable bilingual OS from Apple?

I had a Fat-Mac in the early 90's that I loved. It was mostly used for banging out term papers (and Tetris... lol), but it was much friendlier than my old 8086. Based on my love of the Fat-Mac, I got a PowerBook in '95. Again, I loved that machine, but when I upgraded it to OS 10, it turned into a dog.

I caved to the Evil Empire in '97 when I got a sweet deal on a Compaq laptop with Windows 95. I used that machine for 4 years, stable and no problems. I've still got it in a closet somewhere.

Got another Compaq in 2000, this one came bundled with ME. That was a nightmare... The OS would crash every 30 minutes or so. Had to go buy a copy of Win2000 and reinstall the whole OS. That machine was very stable with Win2000, but I'm still mad at Microsoft because of my experience with ME...

When XP International Edition came out, I bought a copy for the bilingual functionality. My last two machines have used XP International Edition, but now I am looking for something to use for home recording as well.

If Apple has a product similar to XP International, I will probably give them another try... Any suggestions?

J-man · May 31st, 2008, 11:44 AM

Well if it's any help - I've used two versions of Vista a fair amount - Home Premium (On a new Desktop) and Vista Business (On a new high spec laptop).

I found the interface on Vista confusing, which is as to be expected (being used to XP), and is really no big deal, as I would expect this from any new OS.

On the desktop it ran OK, it was noticeably slower than XP to boot up, and to run programs, even things like Firefox took longer to open. (I'm talking about the program speed, not the internet speed).

I found a lot of the new visual additions, well.. A little pointless. All those sidebars just cluttered up the screen and slowed the computer down even more. (So I removed them)

Now, on to the Laptop. I was expecting to see what Vista could really do, it had SP1 installed, the laptop was spec'd high enough to handle pretty much anything.
I was very disappointed, it ran horrendously slow, even slower than the lower spec'd (in every way) desktop.. Programs would crash seemingly without reason, and when they did work, I had to wait forever for them to load.

I'm still running XP Media Centre 2005 on my PC.
I intentionally bought an XP installed PC when Vista became available because I'd heard so many bad things about it. And I'm glad I did! My computer runs great, it hardly ever crashes (and it's usually my fault when it does). It runs very efficently, and load times are as low as any I've seen.

petebradt · May 31st, 2008, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayFreddy

I'm in the market for a new computer.

My wife is Japanese, and we use XP International Edition. That way, she can log on and the OS comes up in Japanese, but when I log on, it comes up in English.

Is there a comparable bilingual OS from Apple?

I had a Fat-Mac in the early 90's that I loved. It was mostly used for banging out term papers (and Tetris... lol), but it was much friendlier than my old 8086. Based on my love of the Fat-Mac, I got a PowerBook in '95. Again, I loved that machine, but when I upgraded it to OS 10, it turned into a dog.

I caved to the Evil Empire in '97 when I got a sweet deal on a Compaq laptop with Windows 95. I used that machine for 4 years, stable and no problems. I've still got it in a closet somewhere.

Got another Compaq in 2000, this one came bundled with ME. That was a nightmare... The OS would crash every 30 minutes or so. Had to go buy a copy of Win2000 and reinstall the whole OS. That machine was very stable with Win2000, but I'm still mad at Microsoft because of my experience with ME...

When XP International Edition came out, I bought a copy for the bilingual functionality. My last two machines have used XP International Edition, but now I am looking for something to use for home recording as well.

If Apple has a product similar to XP International, I will probably give them another try... Any suggestions?

I just tried on my MBP and unless I'm missing something, the answer is no.

That's a cool feature and I think Apple should incorporate that into either the next OS or the next Leopard upgrade. I suspect incorporating it into an existing OS may be problematic but it'd be a good thing to include in the next cat (Cheetah, correct Randy?).

petebradt · May 31st, 2008, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unseen

For a similar reason, as a photographer I stick with Nikon vs. Canon. Nikon tries to be backward compatible (decades old lenses can be attached to the latest camera) whereas Canon often creates an entire new camera/lens system that replaces and obsolesces what came before.

While that's true, with my old manual Nikkors, you'd have to use the digicams in manual mode. I don't have one but I've been eyeing a used D100. I have an 85mm F1.8 from 1968. It's loose and the focus ring has a lot of play in it, but it's still tack-sharp. Same with my 24mm of similar vintage. I suspect all my lenses would have to be used in manual mode. That's ok with me, I rarely needed a meter.

I got out of the biz (I was a newspaper shooter) nine years ago, but those lenses will probably out-live me.

tonfarbe · May 31st, 2008, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petebradt

I just tried on my MBP and unless I'm missing something, the answer is no.

That's a cool feature and I think Apple should incorporate that into either the next OS or the next Leopard upgrade. I suspect incorporating it into an existing OS may be problematic but it'd be a good thing to include in the next cat (Cheetah, correct Randy?).

Of course OS X can do that and unlike with MS, you don't have to buy an extra "International Edition" - it's right there in the preference pane.
I produce presentation movie trailers for BMW and MINI (the ones you often see on international car shows).
Often, when the first (english) version of the trailer is finnished, we have to produce versions for different market (read: different languages).
After I get the translation, it normaly takes me 3 minutes to change all the needed language preferences, log out and then log in again in the new language. In the past, I have produced BMW trailers for Japan, China, Poland, Russia to name a few.

For more information on built in languages look here:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/techspecs/

Because OS X is a multi-user system, each user can log in with his/her preferred language(s). You can also assign more than one language to each user and then switch language and keyboard layout directly in the finder (without logging in again)

aznrambo481 · May 31st, 2008, 12:46 PM

I just want to say that I HATE apple's new advertising. It seems so... demeaning and blatantly mean. There are more subtle ways to advertise than putting down the competitor by comparing him to a balding middle-aged guy. It lowers apple in my book (powerbook :-P) just by seeing those stupid commercials

Rizo · May 31st, 2008, 01:36 PM

Quote:

There are more subtle ways to advertise than putting down the competitor by comparing him to a balding middle-aged guy. It lowers apple in my book (powerbook :-P) just by seeing those stupid commercials

That guy is supposed to be Bill Gates... If you think about Gates and his image next time you see the commercial, it makes sense. On NPR they asked Bill how he liked being made fun of and he got a little prickly and refused to comment.

It's amusing I think, but in the end I agree with you, it's a bit of a cheap shot.

David Barnett · May 31st, 2008, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rizo

That guy is supposed to be Bill Gates... If you think about Gates and his image next time you see the commercial, it makes sense. On NPR they asked Bill how he liked being made fun of and he got a little prickly and refused to comment.

It's amusing I think, but in the end I agree with you, it's a bit of a cheap shot.

Does that mean the other guy is supposed to be Steve Jobs?

getbent · May 31st, 2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayFreddy

I'm in the market for a new computer.

My wife is Japanese, and we use XP International Edition. That way, she can log on and the OS comes up in Japanese, but when I log on, it comes up in English.....
If Apple has a product similar to XP International, I will probably give them another try... Any suggestions?

It is included with the OS. Also included in 10.5 are several japanese language dictionaries and a thesaurus. Japanese support has been native since late 2000 in all shipping versions of OS X.

petebradt · May 31st, 2008, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by getbent

It is included with the OS. Also included in 10.5 are several japanese language dictionaries and a thesaurus. Japanese support has been native since late 2000 in all shipping versions of OS X.

That's true Randy, but when I went into the "Accounts" system pref, and created another account, I saw no way to enable a second language, based on whose login is used. That's what JayFreddy was referring to, specifically, and if there IS a way to do that, I'd like to know because that came up with a house guest one tie, whose native language is not English and I didn't know how to set that up.

Dave W · May 31st, 2008, 06:26 PM

I knew I would never buy an Apple back when the iMacs first came out and I heard Mac people gushing about the different colors they came in.

If you're bragging about your computer being plum or teal, then it's a fashion accessory to you. And that's what Apple is all about: selling a lifestyle, a snobby vain lifestyle.

A PC is a tool, not a lifestyle. It's far from perfect, but any hardware can fail, and Windows software isn't the only software with vulnerabilities, it's just exploited more because it's used so much more. If you doubt that Apple software is vulnerable, see here and here. I've subscribed to that blog for a couple of years now and I've seen just how many Apple security flaws there are and how slow they are to fix them.

getbent · May 31st, 2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petebradt

That's true Randy, but when I went into the "Accounts" system pref, and created another account, I saw no way to enable a second language, based on whose login is used. That's what JayFreddy was referring to, specifically, and if there IS a way to do that, I'd like to know because that came up with a house guest one tie, whose native language is not English and I didn't know how to set that up.

Pete, all doable and has been for awhile. go into managed preferences and you can set it per account. We have two schools in SF who login using chinese in the morning and english in the afternoon... it can even be done with that granularity.

Make an account. set the default language to whatever you want (japanese, french whatever) log out, log in.. it is set per user or globally as you choose. check out your system preferences (international)...

It works great.. it is just foreign to you if you haven't done it before.

If you are considering it and there is an Apple Store near you... they'll sit with you and help you get setup so it works exactly like you want.

Uh, Dave, Dell started their color campaign about 4 months ago... apparently they are trying to sell lifestyle too. The net is that all good companies try to make the best product they can and sell as many as they can at a price point they think they'll win with. Other than the recent settlements against Dell and Microsoft (kinda continuing over the past 6 years or so) most companies play hard but fair. IBM saw the writing on the wall and sold off their unit business (to assure their spot in the services business) and that may have been smart... time will tell... but selling what people are attracted to is nothing new... and probably nothing to get dinged for...

For really high dollar creative business, I'd say those folks would say the mac is a pretty good return on investment.

as for security vulnerabilities... it just isn't so. I have designed heterogenous and homogenous environments on large scales (11-15K nodes) and it just isn't so. As for the market penetration argument... again, it sounds reasonable but again... if you talk to FBI guys (ask them and their CIA brethren who do their security what they carry) the unix piece and the open source piece is what helps OS X avoid the pitfalls of not being open nor a unix variant. People will argue this til they are screaming, but I have designed and deployed very, very large enterprises and it just isn't the case... but, hey, I'm not trying to change YOUR mind, just making sure information is shared and balances.

kp8 · May 31st, 2008, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave W

I knew I would never buy an Apple back when the iMacs first came out and I heard Mac people gushing about the different colors they came in.

If you're bragging about your computer being plum or teal, then it's a fashion accessory to you. And that's what Apple is all about: selling a lifestyle, a snobby vain lifestyle.

There are as many different types of mac users as there are in any other platform. I find this statement a bit insulting. Underneath all the candy colors and sleek minimalisms and fancy advertising is a beast of a mach/bsd UNIX platform with tons of open source tools and a seriously killer dev kit (free i might add) and a ton of other serious text and media tools. I use Macs cause they have a host of great audio tools (Supercollider, cmix, Max/MSP) and because it is a great platform for hacking code (Python, C, Whatever). I genuinely like the OS, both the powerful bsd underpinnings and the fancy windowing tops layers. I like the free tools and i like how consonant it is with my workflow. I get work done on my mac, just as i did on my NeXT machine. ... and ... on top of that is some fun candy....

My 66 year old mother got a mac and got it all set up and working with her smarty-pants son 6,000 miles away. She got it hooked up, her DLS cooking, her printer going, all in a day with no help from me or anyone else. Now she swaps sewing patterns with her friends in Australia and uses iPhoto with her digital camera....

I am sorry of the semiotics of Apple turn you off, but i don't see why you have to put down a whole group of users along the way.

I do research, archival work, creative work, and work with low level code with my mac. It is a tool, and a very powerful one. That it looks cute is just a bonus.

You don't need to put others down to raise yourself up.

stephent2 · May 31st, 2008, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave W

If you're bragging about your computer being plum or teal, then it's a fashion accessory to you. And that's what Apple is all about: selling a lifestyle, a snobby vain lifestyle.

A PC is a tool, not a lifestyle.

And Microsoft is about what might I ask,.... Just plain old good common sense computing?

There were a lot of companies that felt the same way, IBM couldn't figure out what a housewife might do with a personal computer,... maybe for her recipes,...

I'm guessing that's why Steve Jobs is rich, he knew how wrong you be.

And congratulations, I think you've posted the most negative anti-mac post in a civil thread.

Colt W. Knight · May 31st, 2008, 09:06 PM

I am avoiding Vista like the plague, I don't like the supposed upgrade features. Plus the size of vista is huge. Why does Microsoft keep trying to complicate things. I am for progress, but I really don't like all the popup shortcuts that are everywhere on Vista or its constant popup warnings. I am happy with XP though. Been using that since it came out. I just switched to Office 2007 recently as well, I think its a better program, but they changed the access menus and rearranged stuff. I am lost once again, going to take a while to find everything again.

petebradt · May 31st, 2008, 09:12 PM

Man, I can't fully express how much I've had to stifle myself in this thread and if *I* can, anyone can. I get fed up with Windows users calling me gay (they couldn't get away with it here but elsewhere).

Again, if *I* can be civil, you can, too.

micpoc · May 31st, 2008, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StuH

I'd be curious to know what I could accomplish on a Mac that I can't accomplish on a pc running Sonar 7. Just give me a solid OS and the mac is better than pc for audio applications is mute. I'm not a Vista lover but in fairness there were quite a few problems when mac changed os over the past few years and some problems still exist. Just give us a stable OS and google similar problems encountered by audiophiles when mac went through their series of OS upgrades the past 4 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skully

Exactly. But let us be quiet while the Kool Aid is stirred.

Well, how about run Logic 8? I realize that's not an "accomplishment" per se, but after a couple years of using Cubase and Cakewalk on a PC, Logic 8 is a dream. An audio recording/MIDI sequencer designed by the same guys who make your OS is a good thing.

Dave W · May 31st, 2008, 11:26 PM

Situation normal. Thin-skinned Mac users consistently misrepresent the product and its security vulnerabilities and act insulted when someone expresses a contrary opinion.

kp8 · May 31st, 2008, 11:47 PM

Dave W Go grind your axe elsewhere. I personally don't care what you use, but the implications of your post were clearly meant to be insulting. Don't hurl insults at folks and then expect people to send you flowers.

As for Mac's security issues... i don't care to argue with you since it is clear i won't be changing your mind, but my experience runs contrary to your assertions.

Go on hating if you want, but do it on another forum please.

Bill · May 31st, 2008, 11:54 PM

I knew I would never buy a Fender back when the Teles first came out and I heard Fender people gushing about the different colors they came in.

If you're bragging about your guitar being butterscotch or sunburst, then it's a fashion accessory to you. And that's what Fender is all about: selling a lifestyle, a snobby vain lifestyle.

...Just in case putting this argument in a slightly different context shows how shallow the reasoning behind it is.

StuH · June 1st, 2008, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by micpoc

Well, how about run Logic 8? I realize that's not an "accomplishment" per se, but after a couple years of using Cubase and Cakewalk on a PC, Logic 8 is a dream. An audio recording/MIDI sequencer designed by the same guys who make your OS is a good thing.

I actually think if I did go Mac I would be interested in Logic 8. It looks much more improved than 7 but still Sonar 7 IMO is top notch right now. Many head to head reviews supporting my conclusion. I love Sonar, like it's workflow, love it's midi capability, love it's customizability, love the ease of ACT for hardware interfacing, and am really looking forward to their partnership with Roland. Let's face it, you have 4 apps available that are the creme de la creme and Sonar is amongst those 4. I'm sure Logic 8 is great and all

May 31st, 2008, 11:44 AM	#83 (permalink)
J-man Moderator Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Wales/Scarborough Age: 20 Posts: 6,261 9 Photos	Well if it's any help - I've used two versions of Vista a fair amount - Home Premium (On a new Desktop) and Vista Business (On a new high spec laptop). I found the interface on Vista confusing, which is as to be expected (being used to XP), and is really no big deal, as I would expect this from any new OS. On the desktop it ran OK, it was noticeably slower than XP to boot up, and to run programs, even things like Firefox took longer to open. (I'm talking about the program speed, not the internet speed). I found a lot of the new visual additions, well.. A little pointless. All those sidebars just cluttered up the screen and slowed the computer down even more. (So I removed them) Now, on to the Laptop. I was expecting to see what Vista could really do, it had SP1 installed, the laptop was spec'd high enough to handle pretty much anything. I was very disappointed, it ran horrendously slow, even slower than the lower spec'd (in every way) desktop.. Programs would crash seemingly without reason, and when they did work, I had to wait forever for them to load. I'm still running XP Media Centre 2005 on my PC. I intentionally bought an XP installed PC when Vista became available because I'd heard so many bad things about it. And I'm glad I did! My computer runs great, it hardly ever crashes (and it's usually my fault when it does). It runs very efficently, and load times are as low as any I've seen. __________________ Write a wise saying and your name will live forever. - Unknown "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away." - Tom Waits

May 31st, 2008, 12:46 PM	#87 (permalink)
aznrambo481 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: La Jolla, California Age: 17 Posts: 2,857 6 Photos	I just want to say that I HATE apple's new advertising. It seems so... demeaning and blatantly mean. There are more subtle ways to advertise than putting down the competitor by comparing him to a balding middle-aged guy. It lowers apple in my book (powerbook :-P) just by seeing those stupid commercials __________________ Check out my bands, and feel free to PM me comments on them! The Eclectics (guitar/vocals) SLIP (bass)

May 31st, 2008, 11:54 PM	#101 (permalink)
Bill Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bay Area, California Posts: 2,656 58 Photos	I knew I would never buy a Fender back when the Teles first came out and I heard Fender people gushing about the different colors they came in. If you're bragging about your guitar being butterscotch or sunburst, then it's a fashion accessory to you. And that's what Fender is all about: selling a lifestyle, a snobby vain lifestyle. ...Just in case putting this argument in a slightly different context shows how shallow the reasoning behind it is. __________________ B i l l B a e c k A journal of our year in London

May 31st, 2008, 05:45 AM	#81 (permalink)
Unseen Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon Age: 61 Posts: 1,649	The problem is that there is so much Mac brand loyalty that it may interfere with comparison. If I am a gung-ho Mac person, I'm likely to minimize any problems I DO have with Mac for fear of making my loyalty seem misplaced. Mac has two problems in my view: 1) no serious price competition/discounting unless you're a student; 2) less attempt at backward compatibility than with PC's. All too often, the only way to upgrade in the Mac world isn't to add-in card or attach something to a USB port, it's to throw your current Mac on The Trashheap of History and buy whatever is new. For a similar reason, as a photographer I stick with Nikon vs. Canon. Nikon tries to be backward compatible (decades old lenses can be attached to the latest camera) whereas Canon often creates an entire new camera/lens system that replaces and obsolesces what came before.

May 31st, 2008, 06:48 AM	#82 (permalink)
JayFreddy Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Dallas TX USA Age: 43 Posts: 1,008 2 Photos	I'm in the market for a new computer. My wife is Japanese, and we use XP International Edition. That way, she can log on and the OS comes up in Japanese, but when I log on, it comes up in English. Is there a comparable bilingual OS from Apple? I had a Fat-Mac in the early 90's that I loved. It was mostly used for banging out term papers (and Tetris... lol), but it was much friendlier than my old 8086. Based on my love of the Fat-Mac, I got a PowerBook in '95. Again, I loved that machine, but when I upgraded it to OS 10, it turned into a dog. I caved to the Evil Empire in '97 when I got a sweet deal on a Compaq laptop with Windows 95. I used that machine for 4 years, stable and no problems. I've still got it in a closet somewhere. Got another Compaq in 2000, this one came bundled with ME. That was a nightmare... The OS would crash every 30 minutes or so. Had to go buy a copy of Win2000 and reinstall the whole OS. That machine was very stable with Win2000, but I'm still mad at Microsoft because of my experience with ME... When XP International Edition came out, I bought a copy for the bilingual functionality. My last two machines have used XP International Edition, but now I am looking for something to use for home recording as well. If Apple has a product similar to XP International, I will probably give them another try... Any suggestions?

May 31st, 2008, 06:26 PM	#92 (permalink)
Dave W Tele-Afflicted Join Date: May 2003 Location: Guadalupe County, TX Age: 61 Posts: 1,765	I knew I would never buy an Apple back when the iMacs first came out and I heard Mac people gushing about the different colors they came in. If you're bragging about your computer being plum or teal, then it's a fashion accessory to you. And that's what Apple is all about: selling a lifestyle, a snobby vain lifestyle. A PC is a tool, not a lifestyle. It's far from perfect, but any hardware can fail, and Windows software isn't the only software with vulnerabilities, it's just exploited more because it's used so much more. If you doubt that Apple software is vulnerable, see here and here. I've subscribed to that blog for a couple of years now and I've seen just how many Apple security flaws there are and how slow they are to fix them.

May 31st, 2008, 09:06 PM	#96 (permalink)
Colt W. Knight Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: West Virginia Age: 24 Posts: 2,019	I am avoiding Vista like the plague, I don't like the supposed upgrade features. Plus the size of vista is huge. Why does Microsoft keep trying to complicate things. I am for progress, but I really don't like all the popup shortcuts that are everywhere on Vista or its constant popup warnings. I am happy with XP though. Been using that since it came out. I just switched to Office 2007 recently as well, I think its a better program, but they changed the access menus and rearranged stuff. I am lost once again, going to take a while to find everything again.

May 31st, 2008, 09:12 PM	#97 (permalink)
petebradt Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Niner Country Posts: 3,424 12 Photos	Man, I can't fully express how much I've had to stifle myself in this thread and if I can, anyone can. I get fed up with Windows users calling me gay (they couldn't get away with it here but elsewhere). Again, if I can be civil, you can, too.

May 31st, 2008, 11:26 PM	#99 (permalink)
Dave W Tele-Afflicted Join Date: May 2003 Location: Guadalupe County, TX Age: 61 Posts: 1,765	Situation normal. Thin-skinned Mac users consistently misrepresent the product and its security vulnerabilities and act insulted when someone expresses a contrary opinion.

May 31st, 2008, 11:47 PM	#100 (permalink)
kp8 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 2,792	Dave W Go grind your axe elsewhere. I personally don't care what you use, but the implications of your post were clearly meant to be insulting. Don't hurl insults at folks and then expect people to send you flowers. As for Mac's security issues... i don't care to argue with you since it is clear i won't be changing your mind, but my experience runs contrary to your assertions. Go on hating if you want, but do it on another forum please.