8 year old shredding for fun

[tomi]

Originally Posted by Durtdog

TDPRIers can post real stinky recordings here and people will fawn all over them, "great feel, great song, smokin', that rawks." But post something by a phenomenal kid, and they snipe behind his back. It's some of the most childish behavior I've ever seen.

"Lots of notes, no soul." Sheesh. I guess these kids ruffle some feathers around here when they show us up on guitar.

I have nothing against this kid. My beef is with shredding in general. To me it's more like an athletic event than music. Lots of notes and no soul is correct. It's not the kid's fault--it's inherent in the style he has chosen. You can play lots of notes and still have soul and musicality, but that kind of lowest-common-denominator minor-key riffing is a musical dead-end. The kid has amazing technique for an 8-year-old, or for anyone of any age. But if he never starts to use his ears as much as his hands, he's always going to be a one-trick pony. I hope he outgrows it, but that's not likely to happen if he gets more positive reinforcement for being athletic than for being musical. Playing fast is difficult, but that doesn't necessarily make it good.

And by the way, I would never say any of this to this kid or his friends or his parents. But this is the Internet, where no one knows that I'm a dog.

Originally Posted by Durtdog

Yeah I know, you don't play like that because you choose not to.

No, I'm afraid I can't play like that. What I choose not to do is listen to it.

This whole thing makes me kind of sad, like Little Leaguers shooting steroids or something.

Edited to add: BTW, maybe we're all being really unfair to the kid, judging him on the basis of this one clip. Maybe he can play the blues to make a grown man cry. Maybe he can do bebop solos all night long. Maybe he can fingerpick like Leo Kottke. Maybe he just knows his audience: "In-store appearance? Better shred..."

[Telemarkman]

Originally Posted by olewichita

telemarkman et al,

jimmy rosenberg is amazing... now that he's clean again he's playing better than ever... he does play with the fire and passion of the best manouche players... there's footage and audio of bireli lagrene and stocheloo rosenberg at very young ages that is mind boggling... i've been around manouche families a couple of times and the well of talent seems unlimited...

I'm so glad everything is fine with Jimmy Rosenberg. Last time he visited my hometown, he never got to play because he popped some epileptics pills in lack of other substances. He was taken to the hospital in a very bad condition, and no one seemed to know if he'd recover.

Thank you for updating me Tjarko .

As for Bireli Lagrene, I bought his first album - he was 13 I guess and already musically mature.

[TG]

Originally Posted by tomi

..... My beef is with shredding in general. To me it's more like an athletic event than music. Lots of notes and no soul is correct. It's not the kid's fault--it's inherent in the style he has chosen. You can play lots of notes and still have soul and musicality, but that kind of lowest-common-denominator minor-key riffing is a musical dead-end. The kid has amazing technique for an 8-year-old, or for anyone of any age. But if he never starts to use his ears as much as his hands, he's always going to be a one-trick pony. I hope he outgrows it, but that's not likely to happen if he gets more positive reinforcement for being athletic than for being musical. Playing fast is difficult, but that doesn't necessarily make it good.

How many notes you play or how fast you play it has nothing whatsoever to do with how 'good' music is. But the same goes for 'slow and soulful'.
The people here who keep automatically...and in my opinion, foolishly...dismissing 'shred' are overlooking a few things, and are making their own assumptions.

That little fellow could learn to play the entire Bluesbreaker album...or note-for-note Buddy Guy/George Harrison/Hubert Sumlin/Joe Pass/etc/etc licks and solos...and feel nothing whatsoever. Would our resident snobs 'ooooh' and 'ahhhhh' then? I suspect so.

Playing slow doesn't automatically make you 'soulful', just as playing fast doesn't automatically make you a good musician.

Go and count the notes on some Danny Gatton tracks and ask youself if you'd write the little guy off if he learned to play that way. Be honest. Is fast and technical playing acceptable if it's on a clean-toned telecaster. Why?
Do you think Mr. Gatton (and Albert Lee and Arlen Roth etc) 'feel' the music and get 'soulful' every time they mechanically performed the same high-speed licks over and over again performing their songs?

Then go and listen to some classical music and count the notes. Try Mozart.

And also consider whether a professional violinist in an orchestra (like the Berlin Philharmonic or whatever) feels and puts soul into what they play. They have to be technically proficient and....wait for it.....fast.

And consider the fact...repeat, fact...that classical musicians are playing covers. Note for note.
'Soul' and 'feeling'? You think so?

So are they musicians or not? Is someone technically gifted enough to cover Paganini or Rimsky-Korsakov a musician or just a shredder?

Go listen to the kid again and imagine he was playing those passages on a violin.
Would you consider it music then?


'Musical dead-end' my arse.

[Telemarkman]

Very well said TG!

Playing fast should never be a goal in itself, but it can be a means to express certain feelings - or simply to play a certain thing - just as playing slow may express other feelings - one doesn't exclude the other. Feeling has nothing to do with how many or few notes you play ...

[TG]

Originally Posted by Telemarkman

Very well said TG!

Playing fast should never be a goal in itself, but it can be a means to express certain feelings - or simply to play a certain thing - just as playing slow may express other feelings - one doesn't exclude the other. Feeling has nothing to do with how many or few notes you play ...

Thanks.


I wonder what the response around here would be if that little guy decided to become a more 'soulful' player in a few years time...
...by getting a strat and using SRV as a role model.

Poor kids these days just can't win.

[Durtdog]

Originally Posted by tomi

You can play lots of notes and still have soul and musicality, but that kind of lowest-common-denominator minor-key riffing is a musical dead-end. The kid has amazing technique for an 8-year-old, or for anyone of any age. But if he never starts to use his ears as much as his hands, he's always going to be a one-trick pony.

Bunk.

I won't argue with logic like this, I'm done with this pettiness.

[tomi]

Originally Posted by Durtdog

Bunk.

I won't argue with logic like this, I'm done with this pettiness.

That's fine. This is getting out of hand anyway. I don't want to make it personal with anybody here, so when I get responses like "childish," "my arse," "bunk," and "pettiness," I figure I'd better keep my opinions to myself from here on in.

Thanks for the education, gentlemen.

[GoldieLocks]

I seriously doubt that the guy is 8 years old. (but I could be wrong!)

Kids need instruction & discipline more than anyone. Once you develop bad musical habits it can take decades to get rid of them. Especially bad timing & phrasing.
I've had some good musicians call me on some of my short comings. It was embarrassing but the best thing that could ever happen. I fixed my timing, got better tone, and stopped NOODLING so much. I learned how to make the singer better heard and listen to the drums & bass more. If no-one would of said anything I'd be like those 40 year old Shredders in the music store who don't know how band dynamics work.

Anything we can do to stop someone's musical bad-habits is a good thing. Some people pay lots of money to have a teacher scold them...We'll do it for free

I love people that play fast (& say something musical) Albert Lee, Paul Gilbert, Satriani, Steve Morse.

[olewichita]

some great footage... aged 9... it's from one of the two just released DVDs documenting his life... tj

[Telemarkman]

That was absolutely fantastic Tjarko - some are just born with it I guess ... or rather into it.

[olewichita]

telemarkman,

jimmy really blows me away when he plays ballads... he can be very lyrical as well as lightning fast... he's one of the few "fast" players i can enjoy... i've never met jimmy but i've heard that he's absolutely in love with the guitar... tj