Guitars in Europe?

[Mid Life Crisis]

Originally Posted by Tony474

Oi, you lot, stop squabbling, please. The original question was why a MIM Strat that sells for $400 in the US costs $690 in France, and it seems to me that we've answered that by adding up and factoring in all the additional costs involved in shipping, taxes and duties and importer/distributor and dealer mark-ups, fair and equitable or otherwise; also the relative sizes and rates of activity of the US and European markets.

Whether a MIM Strat is a guitar worth owning, whether it represents good value for money in one location or another and whether the Fender logo is a desirable feature or otherwise are entirely different and separate matters that may well merit discussion, but I suggest that they are not relevant to this thread.

Well said!

[Flat357]

Originally Posted by Fatmanstratman

Strange theory indeed.....

Your comments also seem more than a little disrespectful to your fellow TDPRIers who joined this forum to share their mutual fondness for the Telecaster.

I don't think I've ever seen anybody "worshipping a plank of wood..... like some romantic fairy tale God". If you think of your fellow TDPRIers with such disdain, why do you remain a member here?

Surely you are not trolling, so maybe I have misunderstood your point. For the benefit of the guys like me here who are obviously intellectually challenged, could you explain your "Perhaps if you lot stopped worshipping a plank of wood with cheap metal parts on it like some romantic fairy tale God" comments?....

Hey Fatty , I hope you're joking there buddy !

And Jelly ...
Thankyou .
Thank God there is still somebody left who recognises humour when they see it

Wow !! I'm kinda lost for words

[Fatmanstratman]

Originally Posted by Flat357

Hey Fatty , I hope you're joking there buddy !

Oh, ABSOLUTELY, Flatty! Just like you were, of course, buddy!..

And yes, thank god you were here to recognise the humour, Jelly!

Hey! Come on - let's all have a group hug...

Wow! I'm kinda lost for words too!...



Anyway.... to go back to the thread topic, and without trying to flame any manufacturers or TDPRI members, does anybody actually KNOW why guitars are more expensive in Europe than the USA?

[PeterUK]

This thread has been so much fun to watch!

Peter

[Scotland]

Originally Posted by Tony474

Oi, you lot, stop squabbling

Don't know why in particular but that had me rolling around here. Glad you are here to keep us right.

[Fatmanstratman]

Originally Posted by PeterUK

This thread has been so much fun to watch!

Well, Pete - that's 'cos you're a grown up and you're too old to wear REAL Nike shoes...

I'm exhausted! Feels like being on the Pepsi Max at Blackpool for 5 hours non-stop! So many changes of (ahem...) "direction"....

Don't seem to be any further answers to the OPs questions so I'm outta here....

[Unseen]

Originally Posted by Big John

Forgive me if i am wrong but something costs what it costs because the seller sets the price, not me the buyer.
If things only cost what I am willing to pay then there's no problem, i would only be willing to pay $100 for a new Tele and thats all i would pay, sounds fine to me.

Guitars aren't oil. There is no OPEC of guitars. Yes, the seller sets the price in terms of an offer to sell, but then has to see if the public is willing to pay that price. As long as the public feels it just has to have a Fender (Gibson, whatever), the seller is setting the price because there is no real competition. But in reality, YOU are setting the price, not Fender.

When the price is so high that no one is buying Fenders at the current price, the price will have to go down. Buy a Fender and help keep the price high or buy something else and Fender will have to reconsider its pricing.

[Unseen]

Originally Posted by Scotland

True, and more expensive than a Fender, I tried one and preferred a Fender so I play a Fender. In case you haven't noticed, many of us are grown up and make our own decisions. Come back when you can explain market forces in a more detailed and correct manner as your explanation clearly demonstrates that your understanding of the elasticity of supply and demand is deeply flawed, to say the least.

Lodestone was just an example. There are many less-expensive and frequently BETTER alternatives than Fender, Gibson, et al. When Fender can't sell you a guitar at the current price, the price will come down. Until then, griping about it won't solve anything.

[Big John]

Unseen, i hardly dare answer !!

[nic'o'caster]

Originally Posted by studio1087

... I've often wondered if would be possible to start a guitar courier business where one would hand select a guitar in the States, fly with it to Europe and claim it as personal property and then hand it to the true new owner (no taxes or duties). If a cheap airline ticket from New York was $550 and someone paid 1/3 of my ticket....I would bring them any guitar that they wanted.

Guitar mule? Crazy idea I suppose.

Nope sir. It's brilliant ! Let's have a first time. I'd pay 2000$ for anyone to come to Switzerland to bring me a hot rod '52 Tele. Honestly !

[Telemarkman]

Norway is considered one of the three richest countries in the world, and guitar prices mirror this fact I guess.

When I ordered my '52 RI from Wildwood three years ago, I payed $1235 + 25% Norwegian sales tax + $175 UPS shipping, making it a total of $1719 ...

You think that's expensive? I think not ...

Retail price for a '52 RI in Norway is $3800 (n.kr.19.000), but you can get one for $3300, maybe even as low as $2800 if you're lucky ...

So excuse me for not feeling sorry for you guys

I still think my '52 RI is worth every dollar though ...

[JayFreddy]

Originally Posted by Jelly

In hopes of lightening up the thread a bit, I'll post a little German guitar porn here, from my pic gallery. It's a Framus New Sound Television 5-116 from 1965, in very bad shape from previous owner. I've got the single coil pickups to put in whenever I make the repair. Framus is still in business, but doesn't make anything with this much mojo anymore:

Thanks for that! A friend of mine in high school had a Framus acoustic, I remember it was a nice guitar, similar in quality, tone, and feel to a Gibson LGO.

Dean OEM'd some stuff in Czech Republic in the early 90's... I've seen several that were sweet, several more that weren't... I imagine the Poles ought to be able to make decent instruments too, not sure why we never hear about any of that stuff...

[getbent]

Gents, less scolding please.

Increase the civility or this thread will cease. Thank you and happy day before mother's day!

[TDPRI]

I appears that some of you... and you know who you are... squabble just for the "fun" of doing so. It matters not the subject or what is said. Maybe it's more about "who" said it with you guys??

So, why don't you guys stop it? Please and thank you.

Back to the topic at hand.

Is it possible that Fender and other US makers use a distributor to sell product in the UK (and Europe and Australia). In other words, they don't sell their products directly to music stores in those countries. They sell them to a distributor who in return sells them to the dealers?

This would completely explain the pricing differences. Due to the added layer of profit taken on each item.

I don't know this to be fact, but knowing how Fender and other companies work it wouldn't surprise me in the least bit.

PS. One other thing that I know is true from my visits to England. Items that cost a $1 here cost a pound there even though a pound is actually $2. When we visit the UK we're always surprised to see a can of Coke for 1 pound just like it would cost 1 dollar here. Seems like if it cost a dollar here it should cost half as much there. But we've seen this on a great many products.

[Tony474]

Originally Posted by TDPRI

Is it possible that Fender and other US makers use a distributor to sell product in the UK (and Europe and Australia). In other words, they don't sell their products directly to music stores in those countries. They sell them to a distributor who in return sells them to the dealers?

I do believe, as I said earlier in the thread, that it's worse than that (Jim). If I'm right, Fender in the USA ship their products to Fender Europe, in Antwerp, Belgium or some similar place, who in turn sell the goods to Fender UK and other national distributors, who supply the individual retailers. So the retail purchaser is four stages removed from the manufacturer and has to finance the costs and profit for each link in this chain in addition to import duties and national taxes. Hence the relatively higher prices in Europe. Q.E.D.

[Nick JD]

I've just read that importing an item with a value of less than $1000 into Australia incurs no tax or duties.

Now, I'm reading much more because either the rules have changed, or I heard wrong before.

This, surely, is the way for Australians to buy American guitars at the local price...

[Unseen]

Originally Posted by TDPRI

I appears that some of you... and you know who you are... squabble just for the "fun" of doing so. It matters not the subject or what is said. Maybe it's more about "who" said it with you guys??

So, why don't you guys stop it? Please and thank you.

Back to the topic at hand.

Is it possible that Fender and other US makers use a distributor to sell product in the UK (and Europe and Australia). In other words, they don't sell their products directly to music stores in those countries. They sell them to a distributor who in return sells them to the dealers?

This would completely explain the pricing differences. Due to the added layer of profit taken on each item.

I don't know this to be fact, but knowing how Fender and other companies work it wouldn't surprise me in the least bit.

PS. One other thing that I know is true from my visits to England. Items that cost a $1 here cost a pound there even though a pound is actually $2. When we visit the UK we're always surprised to see a can of Coke for 1 pound just like it would cost 1 dollar here. Seems like if it cost a dollar here it should cost half as much there. But we've seen this on a great many products.

American products are in demand. Face it. When demand dies down, distributor/middleman or no, the price will go down.

You Europeans just love our guitars and soft drinks so much that the prices stay stratospheric. When they don't sell at the current price, the price will creep down.

Stop buying our shyte if you want the price to go down!

[Big John]

Originally Posted by Unseen

.......Stop buying our shyte if you want the price to go down!

1, I have never seen anyone Stateside spell it that way !!, top of the class and a job in the Diplomatic corps for you Sir !!
2, If we do stop buying it will it matter what the price is 'cos if we 'aint buying it we 'aint paying a penny are we ?

Can we just leave this as the best explanation of economics ?

[Catweazle]

Originally Posted by Fatmanstratman

If you consider that I was being aggressive and unpleasant, and you see "absolutely no personal animosity nor any rant" in Unseen's post, then you clearly didn't understand what either of us had written. However, I totally forgive you as I don't speak German, and I'm sure I too would have probably have had difficulty understanding comments made on a German guitar forum too!..

I find your racist comment offensive.
For your information, I'm English and understand equally as well as you do.

[Fatmanstratman]

Sorry, Catweazle, but your comments have nothing to do with the topic thread and, as requested by the forum moderators, I do not intend to get sucked into a totally unwanted and unwelcome fight. You'll have to find someone else to flame!....

Please respect the original poster and the wishes of the moderators, otherwise this thread will be needlessly locked...

[Akvarn]

OK, back to the topic. I'd like to present some facts.

I live in Norway, which is a pretty expensive place. A Fender American Standard Tele costs about $2200 -$2300. (Currency $1 = ca 5,2 NOK)

For one, Fender doesn't allow shipping form USA to Norway. They require purchases to go through an official retailer. In a high cost and high income country people seem to pay what is asked as long as the product price is in line with what they're used to, so price doesn't seem to be a big issue here.

VAT is 24% in Norway.

Shipping probably adds a little to the price as well.

For the sake of comparison I found the retail price in Norway for an Ibanez RGA121H - $1826 (Norway) vs $950 (USA, about the same as a Fender Am Std Tele).

The Ibanez can also be shipped from USA to Europe. (Hence anyone can have it shipped from a retailer in USA - I have done it several times with acoustic guitars.) The price would be

* Guitar $950
* Express shipping $70
* VAT 24% (merchandise and shipping)
* TOTAL $1275

[Flat357]

Originally Posted by Catweazle

I find your racist comment offensive.

+1
Quite a few of his comments were offensive .

Originally Posted by Fatmanstratman

I do not intend to get sucked into a totally unwanted and unwelcome fight. You'll have to find someone else to flame!....

You don't mind starting them though do you

Originally Posted by Fatmanstratman

Please respect the original poster and the wishes of the moderators, otherwise this thread will be needlessly locked...

Unbelievable