Songwriting Tips?

[SixStringSlinger]

I've been thinking that I'd like to do some actual song writing. First I was just into playing whatever, then writing my own stuff, then making arrangements. Guess this is another step. I bought a composition notebook that I keep in my book bag, so I have it with me at home, on campus, wherever. I thought I'd keep something like that handy to write down whatever little ideas I may get, and see what comes out of there.

Any other tips for a total beginner?

[patrik]

One thing i would say is just don't force it. What i mean is, sometimes i'll come up with a verse or two and then just draw a blank after that. I just walk away from it for awhile and usually something comes to me. I've found that i tend to have better finished product if i do that. Hope that helps a little.

Patrick

[Charlie Bernstein]

I've written hundreds of songs. But I've never sold one. So whatever you do, don't ask me.

[Chrismeyer]

O.k.,this is from my classes at BMI Nashville.
First off,if you write rock music,none of this applies.
and secondly,this is for "hit"songs,not real songs that actually MEAN something !
It's all about "Her"
Write things that women like and can relate to.(Women make up a HUGE portion of the market that actually BUY music and go to concerts and call in requests.)

Write things that say things you'd say to someone in a conversation,BUT say it in a new and inventive way.(anyone can say The car was in the driveway..you have to say it in a way that makes the listener SEE it there.)

Don't bore us,get to the chrous.(this one's easy,you can't drag out 3 verses or have more than 8 lines before the CH or it's just too long)

If a listener can't sing the whole CH after the first listen or atleast hum it and sing a few words,then you need to fix it.
(This means it has to be uncomplicated AND catchy)

3:15 Easy,if it dosen't fall in this time frame,it's not going into heavy rotation on any station that has listeners.(this one actually does fit Rock as well,Clear Channel SUCKS!)

These are some I can remember off hand.My teacher was Jason Blume,he's done books and write all kinds of big hits and he runs the classes at BMI Nashville.

The Two BIGGEST things I can say are that you have to work hard on the conversational writing and then work on re-writing it in a fresh way(not like a George Straight song!!!!!,People only like him cause he's SUPPOSED to be great and country fans are LOYAL all the way.Plus he was in an even gayer movie than Brokeback Mountian called Pure Country)
AND,that you CANNOT be married to a song once it's "finished".They're not finished untill they're on the radio and everyone has heard it!
You can write and re-write it 100 times if the base of the song or the music is great.
Never throw anything out!
My teacher wrote his first hit 9 times.He told us he wouldn't be teaching this class or driving a new BMW convertible if he'd only re-written it 8 times!

I'm not an expert,but I listen to people that are so there ya go!
Oh yeah,like another post said before me(Patrick),if you hit a wall and it's not coming,leave it and come back to it.You could come up with an awesome verse at 4:30 am the next night and get up,write it down and leave it alone again.You can't force it,that was great advise.

[mlove3]

I too have written a lot of tunes, any of em any good? Eh, maybe. Not really for me to decide anyway, but I think some are ok.
One thing I think is important, don't judge it as you're writing it! Work on it, keep at it, and if it isn't an instant classic finish it anyway.
Not every thing you write is gonna be amazing. Even Lennon/McCartney had clunkers occasionally.

I did a lot of writing when I was in school as a way to blow off steam from studying and I really found it almost therapeutic. I only played those tunes occasionally for friends and at acoustic gigs yet they gave me a lot of satisfaction.

Oh, and keep it under 3 1/2 minutes! Short songs rule!

[Chrismeyer]

Oh yeah,go get Darrell Scotts song "title of the song"it's funny and it's true.It's about the song writing game.

[stephwills]

+1 on the notebook. You never know when the muse will speak. I usually get ideas while I'm in the shower ... and hope I hang on to them until I can get to a notebook or recorder. I had the greatest bass line come to me today while I was walking into the office and immediately lost it. :(

Read and listen. Listen to others (eavesdrop if you have to) and listen to your inner voice. That muse is an unpredictable lady. She'll drop something in your lap when you're least prepared. But if you're not listening, you'll never hear it.

I've been reading an awesome book for inspiration. I mainly focus on Texas/Red Dirt music and stumbled across an awesome book, Texas Cowboys: Memories of the Early Days. During the 30's and 40's, the WPA Writers Project sent unemployed writers to West Texas to interview older people who pioneered the frontier and get first hand accounts of the people who gave rise to the cowboy legend. It's fantastic reading and stuffed with inspiration.

But above all, have fun with it. Write what makes you happy and be happy with what you write.

Good luck!

[Jakedog]

What kind of songwriting are we talking? Are we talking lyrics, composition, or both? Steve Vai calls himself a songwriter, I call him a brilliant composer, and a terrible songwriter.

Perosnally, I make my living as a singer/songwriter. I am no composer, my music is fairly simple, more just a vehicle for lyrics, than actual composition. I guess my question is, are you asking for advice on being a lyricist, or a composer/arranger, or a little of both. I can help alot with the lyricist part, and have taught at workshops and such. The other I ain't so great at...


Jake

P.S.- for my own stuff, I kind of tend to throw rules out the window, and write whatever I feel like. They ain't hits, but I've sold enough records to think they must be decent songs. If you want to hear a few, you can check out my myspace: www.myspace.com/gsharper

[Chrismeyer]

stephwills is right,thank god for the voice recorder on the ole cell phone!!
I have like 23 ideas in mine right now!

[boris bubbanov]

Tip #1

Get rid of your Television.

Works wonders.

[Tim Bowen]

I'm a decent co-writer, and a lousy tunesmith as left to my own devices. I think it's important to understand the differences between song writing, song crafting, production, and arrangement. A great song will stand up with little more than words, a vocal, and an acoustic guitar or piano. A great piece of music or a great recording owes much to arrangement. Sometimes the two camps coincide, other times they're apples and oranges.

Some things I've learned from really good songwriters:

A story has to be told in a way that relates to people, and that, usually, the best songs are written as based on life experiences. An associate of mine that I consider one of the best songwriters I've ever met has said on many occasions that he actually dreads it when his life is running smoothly; he says that he can't write diddly. If you've disdain for songwriting pandering such as basing a tune on a tractor or a four wheel drive truck, then I needn't say more.

Also, many great tunes were written very quickly, and in some cases, very nearly forgotten. James Taylor wrote "Mexico" in a drunken stupor, not that I'm advocating such. Nonetheless, had not Taylor's vacation buddy on this excursion helped him to recreate the tune during the fog of the morning after, this is a tune that none of us would've likely ever heard.

[Guitar_Ninja]

To start, two very basic and INCREDIBLY effective, popular songwriting forms:

A = verse
B = chorus
C = Bridge

AABACAB

and ABABCAB

It's amazing how many famous and classic songs are written using this form or a variation on it.


As far as writing lyrics go, an old trick if you have the music and need to come up with some words is to come up with a title inspired by the emotion and feeling which the music evokes. It's a surprisingly effective trick to get your mind working.

[garytelecastor]

What it all comes down to is work, doing the work. You have to sit down and write.
Most of the writers I know treat it like a job. They figuratively punch in and work an 8 hour a day job writing.
I always think of those cats in the Brill building in New York. They just would go into a room with a piano and start working.
The story goes that Jimmy Dean wrote Big Bad John on an airplane in about 15minutes. When lady muse strikes be prepared.

[rand z]

years ago, i would write a song and pretty much leave it as it came to me... maybe alter a few words or change a chord or two (i.e minor for major) to make it more interesting. but, basically just go with the simplicity and original inspiration. sometimes, i still use this approach, but...

in recent years, i now spend quite a bit of time revising, rewriting, changing words and rhyme schemes... but, i let the SONG grow and end up kinda guiding it to some final destination. many times now, the song will take on a life of itself, my original idea and intention will bloom into something very different from the original concept. sometimes i dont find out the real theme or meaning of a song till much later in the process...

this might occur over a period of months, and i might have three songs that im working on in this manner at the same time.

i think, for me, its a much better way to write and i also think the final product is stronger and much more coherent.

putting in simple terms, im actually CRAFTING these songs after the original inspiration.

inspiration + perspiration = good song

imho.

rand z tropicalsoul.net

[Charlie Bernstein]

I rewrite constantly. Any tune more than a couple of years old has been rewritten at least twenty times.

So that's not the key to stardom...

[geddins]

Originally Posted by Chrismeyer

The Two BIGGEST things I can say are that you have to work hard on the conversational writing and then work on re-writing it in a fresh way(not like a George Straight song!!!!!,People only like him cause he's SUPPOSED to be great and country fans are LOYAL all the way.Plus he was in an even gayer movie than Brokeback Mountian called Pure Country).

Oh yeah......Lord help us NOT to write a song that George Strait would cut....haha...whatever. I've had the opportunity to speak to some VERY accomplished songwriters of late (Walt Wikins and Jamie Richards....google, listen, and be amazed), and they write songs that "mean" something...but they'd both like to have a tune on a GS project....

[bruce]

Jimmy Webb wrote a book called "Tunesmith". You might want to pick that up. Lots of useful information.

[markw51]

I wished I had written "She Thinks My Tractor's Sexy."

[rand z]

most songwriters that i know who are doing it for a living at various levels of fame (and income)... keep notebooks for ideas and a guitar by their bed.

they record snippets and musical ideas to retain certain tempos, melodic ideas, hooks, themes and whatevers as these dont translate to notebooks as well.

they write on a regular basis and throw away (or shelve) a lot of ideas before they get something they usually lock into... and start expanding it with ideas, etc.

sometimes they'll deliberately get together with other writers to combine ideas and music, hoping for something to jell. they'll plan a few days together in a controlled setting (cabin, lakehouse, etc) where they can focus much of their attention to moving the song along to finish. and, yes, they are very much trying to come up with a FINISHED product.

ive seen this approach work many times. therefore, i think that to a degree, you can force inspiration and then, hopefully, craft your way to the finish line.

not all memorable songs came from the muse and magic... i believe many great songs we all know, were written with concentration, focus, craft and general hard work.


imho.

rand z tropicalsoul.net

[ac15]

My number 1 piece of advice is "finish writing the damn song." I know lots of guys with hours and hours of recordings containing "brilliant song ideas" and notebooks crammed with "great song titles" yet they never finish a complete song. Been there, done that. Sometimes still do.

[mudbean]

Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein

I've written hundreds of songs. But I've never sold one. So whatever you do, don't ask me.

HAR!!

+1

mud

[SixStringSlinger]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm really talking about lyrics more than anything else. I can find my own way as far as arrangements and whatnot go.

I'm not talking about making any money with it, either. I never made but 25 cents playing my guitar, and I threw it back at the guy. I'm just interested in songwriting as another way to get something across.

Sometimes I'll just be walking with my mind wandering and I'll randomly think of (what I think to be) a clever phrase, or an observation that's somehow striking to me. I've been thinking I'll just write these random things down and see what kind of stuff keeps coming up, just to start with, anyway. To see where it is exactly that my mind goes when it wanders.

I realize all that "hit song formula" was more a joke than anything else, it's not really too far from what I'm thinking. Not in the sense of pop hits, but in the sense of keeping things simple and concise, lyrically.Sometimes I hear a song that's so damn wordy but barely says anything. I prefer something simpler that really packs a punch as far as what it provokes in the listener.

Thanks again for all the replies.

[getbent]

Forms and Functions. There is a good reason that popular songs follow patterns.... If the goal is to have people understand something from your song then it makes sense to construct it in a manner that will 'match up' both in language and format to something that will both satisfy and challenge the listener.

In the satisfaction department, images and formats for the narrative will need to be familiar enough that the listener can decipher what you are trying to say. In the challenges department, you'll need to turn a phrase or have a plot twist (or several of them) that will challenge the listener to 'see the world with new eyes'.

There is absolutely no harm in following a standard construction and there is some benefit especially to the beginning writer. Even when we hear a song that sounds wildly non standard, within a few minutes the form and function (if the song is good) will reveal itself.

Here is a song from a fairly popular 'new' band.... their approach is really, really different than mine would be... yet, I find their twist pretty interesting ...

Let's keep the fire tape on, we'll keep our hands hot
I cannot get that ace so let me see a face card drop
We can play the field, if it feels right
Or we can spin the wheel and roll the dice for midnight
All that matters to me girl, win or lose
Is an x-rated complete swirl of me and you
So if you want to see the show, just come with me baby
I will show you how I roll

Let's burn this filthy town straight into the ground with our dirty looks and glances
Come on, can you hear us now, as we rock you, shock you, drop you, and make you want it more?

And we're gonna risk it all for the weekend
Cause I've been needing this time off and everybody's drinking
You get excited, you can't hide it when you hit the floor
The after party won't get started till bout three or four
So when you see me from across the room, girl you know what to do
Can you get me in the mood?

Let's burn this filthy town straight into the ground with our dirty looks and glances
Come on, can you hear us now, as we rock you, shock you, drop you, and make you want it more?
Let's burn this filthy town straight into the ground with our dirty looks and glances
Come on, can you hear us now, as we rock you, shock you, drop you, and make you want it more?

I'll make you want this
And make you want it more
You keep on suckin' me, suckin' me in
To make me want it more
You keep on suckin' me, suckin' me in

Let's burn this filthy town straight into the ground with our dirty looks and glances
Come on, can you hear us now, as we rock you, shock you, drop you, and make you want it more?
Let's burn this filthy town straight into the ground with our dirty looks and glances
Come on, can you hear us now, as we rock you, shock you, drop you, and make you want it
Rock you, shock you, drop you, and make you want it
Rock you, shock you, drop you, and make you want it



There are a million books on songwriting.... the book I'd consider buying is the beatle songbook (not the complete scores) in paperback that has just the chords and makes it easy for guitar.... there is a fun game to play with Beatle songs... take the first chord of the verse and chorus and remove them. Start the song on the second chord and make up your own words using the opposite concept of what the beatles were saying... so, instead of 'we can work it out' try 'nothing will make me come back to you'

There is a Billy Joel album called "The Nylon Curtain" I kinda think he was playing part of this game on that record....

The only real way to learn to write good songs is to write a bunch of songs and play them for people. If you can find some friends who will do a 'song pull' with you... all to the good... but even that is unnecessary... busking, home recording, coffee shop gigs... write, play, perform and repeat.

For me, the formula actually frees up the creativity because I am limited to certain devices and I have to be clever about making them work...

Friction is a good thing.... without it.... well, we need friction... it brings heat, joy and release. Put that in your song and you'll have something.

[beep.click]

I get a lot more done if I just LET a song happen, as opposed to MAKING it work.