I *want* to like Gibsons really bad.

[Isotech]

Everyone seems to love the Gibsons, and I'm trying to find out why. I have broken ears, or I'm playing them wrong or something.

I played a $1200 Gibson Flying V at GC, while getting a new rack yesterday. To it's credit the setup was horrible (action high, way too much relief in the neck, strings corroded).

But for a $1200 guitar I was amazing at how horrendous the fit and finish was. The fret ends poked into my fingers, The bridge had casting flash on it that Gibson just chromed over. The fret markers on the side of the guitar were sunk into the wood, and the the poly had dimples/cracks over those sports. Volume pot was loose and crackled.

So picked up another Flying V. This one was better, but the setup was still horrendous, and it still sounded like mud. 4 SGs and an explorer yielded the same result.

I know back in the day, before pedals when you had to drive an amp to distort, buckers would load up the tube and distort better, and they *bucked* the hum, which was desirable.

Here is what I dont like about Gibsons:
1) Price, I expect a guitar over $1000 to play nice. I have played Fenders that have bad setups that cost over $1000, but it's *very* rare. Pretty much any +1000 Jackson/Ibanez I pull off the wall will have a nice setup. It's pretty bad when most the of Squiers have a better setup and fret dressing then half the MIA Gibsons.

Maybe it's all the 15 year old metal wanker kids in GC, that thrash the Gibsons, and leave the Fenders alone. But why arent the nice imports thrashed too?

2) Mud. Most of the Gibsons I play sound like mud. If you dime the vol, and throw tons of gain on it.. They sound deep and crunchy, which is a cool sound. But run it through a clean channel (like a twin with a touch of reverb, and they sound muddy.) Back off the volume pot a little and your highs take a dump, and it sounds like a tele with the tone knob at 0. It's really had to get a transparent sound out of them (which is why I *love* teles, they have that wide open articulate transparen sound), they dont sound balanced. Lots of lows, and tons of mids. You can compensate some with treble control on the amp, but then they start to sound a little brittle.

3) Little dynamic range. As mentioned above. Most the Gibson seems to have 2 settings. Dimed and crunchy (which does sound nice for that hard rock/metal sound), and everything else is muddy and opaque.

Part of it is the humbuckers. An LP with P90s has a sweet articulate sound, maybe I just like single coils. But then again my Ibanez SZ 720FM with buckers has some of that transparency I like (and a super nice setup.)


OK, now here is the weird thing. My wife, and friends like the sound of me playing through my Ibanez SZ with buckers over my Fender single coils. That low and middy inarticulate tone sounds better to them (running clean even). I really love the articulate, wide open, balanced, sparkly, spanky.. fender tone though.

Maybe my ears are broken, and that bucker sound is what most people like. I'll Grab my strat/tele through the twin, and throw on a little dirt (tons of dynamic range), and start channeling Jimi/SRV, and people around me will start keep web browsing.

But I'll grab my Ibanez SZ 720FM (which BTW is a solid mahogany/flame maple top/setneck/dual humbucker/non trem aka. Les Paul copy). Or I'll grab my GFS bucker equiped Squier Jagmaster, and people will start "ooohing".

I even think my Gretsch sounds a little too muddy and inarticulate.

Is my brain not wired for humbuckers or something? Is there some magic quality of the Gibby/Bucker sound that I'm missing? Are my ears searching for different qualities then most people?

I'm not completely biased against buckers. I think EVH's tone is to die for, and he in running a ES335 Gibby bucker in the bridge with just a vol pot and the amp. He managed to get that huge dynamic range I like.

Here LP, and humbucker sounds I think sound great:

EVH Beautiful Girls:


God I wish I could make a LP sound like this. Since Ive been loving you by Zep:



For constrast here is the sound I like fenders for:
That tele fender sound.



Really... I not *trying* to bash Gibsons. I want to like them badly. I love how the Flying Vs, and Explorers look (Esp in antique white). If I could just get the sounds out of them that are in my head.

-Nathan

[bowlfreshener]

I wanted to, and have liked, but never owned any Gibsons, and unless their prices go down, Gibson can just shove their guitars and prices up their own f-hole.

[roadkillbill]

And the weird thing is, there are probably Gibsons out there that want to like you, too, but sadly, some things are just not meant to be..

Stick with what you know and like, and *love* will find a way....

[11 Gauge]

You may be more of a P90 guy than a PAF one.

Instead of playing new Gibbies, maybe you need to try a few used ones that have received the proper TLC.

Another option would be to build a partscaster with some Gibson-esque details - maybe the answer for you is somewhere in the middle. This seems to be the case for me. I have to have a bolt-on neck, 25.5" scale, with some heft to it. I also detest really heavy guitars. Luckily, companies like ESP etc. make some neat Fenderish/Gibsonish hybrids.

IMO, dyed-in-the-wool Fender players just don't typically gravitate towards off-the-shelf PAFs. It takes a little extra tweaking to get it where someone like you would probably find it usable.

Maybe you just need to embrace that a Gibson is not for you - at least not at this point in time.

[jenton70]

Well, my 335 is probably my favorite guitar and there is nothing even close to "mud" in the sound. I think the problem you had was that the guitars you were trying are equipped with those Gibson ceramic pickups. They sound like garbage in my opinion. I find '57 Classics and the new Burstbuckers to have a very warm, clear sound through a clean amp.
If you really want to like Gibsons (and for the price I don't know why ) I'd suggest checking out the 335. It is very versatile and has a beautiful tone. The VOS series Les Pauls are pretty nice, too. Way too much coin, though.
You might hear "muddy" when I'm hearing "warm" and that debate is as old as the wood from which the guitars are made. Telecasters can sound too "plunky" or compressed to me sometimes when played clean. Granted, there are a ton of folks on this site that specifically look for that percussive tele tone and that's cool, too.
Good luck with the Gibbers.

[surfoverb]

My favorite Gibson tones are Pete Townshend's p90 SG (Live at Leeds) and Angus Young's humbucker SG. (Let there be rock) Those 2 albums alone make Gibson's worth every penny.

[geddins]

Maybe you're just not ever going to be a "Gibson guy"....no big shame. There's a whole bunch of folks who say they can't like a tele because they are too "icepicky" or too "country".

Different strokes for different folks.

I love Teles. I love Les Pauls. I have no issues liking either of 'em! BTW...I would NOT characterize any guitar in a GC as being the normal example from any company...after haning around those stores for a day the guitars there are for all intents and purposes "used".....I've never had any issues in "fit and finsh" with any of the Gibsons I've owned.

[Lance]

I played a pile of Gibsons recently and none were even remotely playable as is. Yeah....even the VOS models. The necks were all over the place...nothing that a decent setup wouldn't resolve but a sad joke in the $1K+ market. Most of the finishes had a number of obvious flaws. It was really depressing because I really wanted to get one.

If you want to read a scary story....you can read about my own fiasco with my '54 Historic Goldtop, it's right at the top of the page here:
http://reviews.harmony-central.com/r...c+Reissue/10/1
I still have that guitar because it sounds great.....but what a mess to get it working! Tonewise, this Les Paul is huge with its P90s and wrap around bridge.

IMHO, right now the best "Gibson Les Paul" is a Singlecut PRS SC245. It's got the LP scale length, construction, looks and tone. The best bargain LP is the PRS SEs (any of them...especially the P90 models). These blow away $1500-$2500 Gibsons in every way for about $500. I got a singlecut PRS SE One that's just perfect and sounds killer.

Gibson does make some decent guitars but the variability is too far out there. They're executives should stop checking out their fancy cars, visit their retailers and play PRSs.....then, ask the manufacturing team how they can start producing a product with that level of quality.

[FirstBassman]

Originally Posted by surfoverb

My favorite Gibson tones are Pete Townshend's p90 SG (Live at Leeds)

For what it's worth, I agree.
One of my favorite records of all time and one of my favorite guitar sounds of all time.

Long live Pete!

[pengipete]

Or maybe you are posting what you think people want to hear on a Telecaster forum. The simple fact is that real guitarists are like real people - we aren't defined by the guitar we play and we are just not that shallow. Are you really going to argue that millions of musicians are deaf, wrong or stupid for choosing guitar "A" over guitar "B"?

I am a huge Tele fan and much prefer this guitar to any other but I woiuldn't even dream of slagging off another make or model. No serious musician would describe all Gibsons as sounding like mud.

[Durtdog]

Originally Posted by pengipete

The simple fact is that real guitarists are like real people - we aren't defined by the guitar we play and we are just not that shallow.

Many, many, many guitar players are that shallow, and feel very strongly that they are defined by the guitar they play. Many can be found right here on the good 'ole TDPRI.

Ford or Chevy?

And to fret over trying to make yourself like a guitar just because you like the way it looks, or so-and-so plays one is silly. If you don't like playing Gipzuns, don't get one.

[mad dog]

It was an ES-335 that finally delivered the love for me. I had owned several SGs way back. In hindsight, I really disliked those guitars. Then, every LP I'd pick up just wouldn't make it, for one reason or another. Similar to the reasons cited by the OP. What finally changed things was this '66 335 with the stock trapeze. Now I get it. Now i get the humbucker thing. Part of this is the amp too. HB guitars may not work with the same amps or settings as single coils. It took a fair amount of experimentation before I got comfortable with that.

[NEPATelecaster]

When I first started playing it was ALL about Gibsons. I had a 77 SG and an 83 Les Paul.

Then I played other guitars. Got a Godin. A Fender (or 2). A G&L (or 2 soon), now there is NOT ONE, Gibson that I G.A.S. over at all...

Well, a few months ago I got some cramps over the Firebird, but then read about the next dive, and couldn't find one to try out, then it subsided.

[Isotech]

So yes I am bashing Gibson on what I perceive to be bad setup, and wildly inconsistent fit and finish at a typically GC store.

I'm trying to figure out why I dont jive 100% with the Gibson bucker sound though. As someone mentioned before, what other people call warm, some might call muddy. I'm *not* trying to bash Gibsons/humbuckers on their sound, I'm trying to figure it out. Why does a nice tele through a Twin make me melt, and a gibson through the same leaves me feeling meh?

So instead of just running my mouth, I decided to record a bunch of my guitars, So I could illustrate the bucker vs single coil differences Im talking about.

Note: My playing is really sloppy in the audio samples. Fair warning. Trying to highlight the sound differences, not my playing.

The amp is a 70s silverface Twin Reverb, with just a touch of reverb in it.
Treb: 5.5
Mid: 4.2
Bass: 3.8
Vol: 2
Reverb: 3

For the distorted parts I'm running through a Fulltone OCD pedal, and the setting are:
Vol: 25%
Drive: 25%
Tone: 50%
HP setting is turned on.


The amp and pedal settings are the same between switching guitars. All the guitars have the same strings (D'Addario 10s), and are setup up with similiar action (semi-low, just a touch of relief in the neck). Which the exception of the Gretsch which is running D'Addario 11s.

The Tele I ran through 1 input on vibrato channel on the twin. The buckers I ran through 2nd input on vibrato channel.

I mic'ed the amp with a Shure 57, running into a AudioBuddy preamp... to sound card.

I played through the neck middle and bridge pickups on all guitars, no distortion, then add a little distortion at the end (on the middle pickup unless otherwise noted.)


Squier Jagmaster with GFS pickups (59 vintage buckers) and pots 500K:
http://www.soundupload.com/audio/q39datdp0fm8bzh

Ibanez SZ720FM with it's stock Duncan designed buckers.:
http://www.soundupload.com/audio/lccoba1a051ox9a


Fender Custom Shop Telecaster (I lied at the distorted part its the neck pickup, not the bridge):
http://www.soundupload.com/audio/otjjgumvyylors9


Gretsch Electromatic 5120 stock GretschBuckers:
http://www.soundupload.com/audio/drxynvu875mowek

[Durtdog]

Originally Posted by Isotech

Why does a nice tele through a Twin make me melt, and a gibson through the same leaves me feeling meh?

So instead of just running my mouth, I decided to record a bunch of my guitars, So I could illustrate the bucker vs single coil differences Im talking about.

Is this supposed to prove something? You don't need to. It just means you prefer the sound of single coils. You're preaching to the choir here, lots of folks probably feel the same way you do.

[whodatpat]

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

You may be more of a P90 guy than a PAF one.

Instead of playing new Gibbies, maybe you need to try a few used ones that have received the proper TLC.

Another option would be to build a partscaster with some Gibson-esque details - maybe the answer for you is somewhere in the middle. This seems to be the case for me. I have to have a bolt-on neck, 25.5" scale, with some heft to it. I also detest really heavy guitars. Luckily, companies like ESP etc. make some neat Fenderish/Gibsonish hybrids.

IMO, dyed-in-the-wool Fender players just don't typically gravitate towards off-the-shelf PAFs. It takes a little extra tweaking to get it where someone like you would probably find it usable.

Maybe you just need to embrace that a Gibson is not for you - at least not at this point in time.

I dont know what a PAF is, but I will say that I think I am a P90 man. I found an old G-LP in the used shop and pluged it into Fender Deville and LOVED the crunch. I think its great to have the right guitar for the right sound. I prefer the clean channel and the sound of my Standard Telly. But when I want to lay down some AC/DC or ZZ Top that LP with P90's would sure be nice. And at about 10 years old I can ALMOST afford it.
Then again maybe I need a 72 Tele with dual P90's!

[neocaster]

Originally Posted by geddins

I love Teles. I love Les Pauls. I have no issues liking either of 'em! BTW...I would NOT characterize any guitar in a GC as being the normal example from any company...after haning around those stores for a day the guitars there are for all intents and purposes "used".....I've never had any issues in "fit and finsh" with any of the Gibsons I've owned.

+1!!! Head to a Mom and Pop shop near you, if there are any left. (That's right. Run, don't walk.) Try out a few. Les Pauls, SGs, Firebirds, ES-anything! Gibson makes some guitars that feel as perfect as any can. As far as sounding muddy, spend some time tweaking an amp you're real comfortable with, at least a tone control, if not a TMB circuit, and try to find something you like. As with all things, you may never click with it, but you won't know without the right kind of exposure and experimentation.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Not liking a brand is no big deal. Looks like you're just talking about electrics here. I like the sounds of my ES-335 (two alnico humbuckers) and ES-150 (one alnico P-90). I usually play them through Fender and Ampeg amps, and usually at low-to-medium volume. They only sound muddy when I make them sound muddy. But we might have different mud thresholds.

To me, Gibson electrics through Fender amps sound great. (Rent Festival Express and hear Jerry and Bob.) Or listen to Warren Haynes or Daryl Trucks. I'd love to have a Les Paul Standard to round out the arsenal, but as Leon Fullerton always said: So many guitars, so little money.

Never been to a Guitar Center, but my impression is that they sell a lot of inferior gear, regardless of brand.

But nothing wrong with sticking with Teles. Play what you like, and you'll like what you play.

[Isotech]

Originally Posted by Durtdog

Is this supposed to prove something? You don't need to. It just means you prefer the sound of single coils. You're preaching to the choir here, lots of folks probably feel the same way you do.

Maybe I'm trying to prove something to myself. I'm trying to figure out why I like one over the other. Maybe someone could say.. doh.. you moron, drop the treb out of your twin if you want to make the buckers sound X vs Y. I could possibly be misunderstanding some neat tones, or otherwise to ignorant or biased to appreciate different tones.


Or I could home sick from work with a bad head cold, and kinda bored.

[GoldieLocks]

I'll add my 2 bits.

I love my new Gibson SG. It definitely needed some adjustment when I got it. Mostly I had to get those Gibson strings off there (I hate Gibson strings - they just feel wrong to me), Maybe Gibson strings don't appeal to you either. It really affects the feel of a guitar. And Gibson strings probably come on every Gibson you try at a store.

I spent last weekend jamming on a buddy's Fender Twin. It Sounded HORRIBLE. We tried everything. It just sounded muddy & Woofy. Then I got home & plugged back into my Hiwatt amp. It sounded fantastic. (if you dig Toni Iommi & Angus Young).

I now know I just can't get what I want out of a fender twin. Give me a good Marshall anyday (even my Hotrod Deluxe sounds better than the last 2 Fender twins I tried).

But don't give up on Gibsons. They are the exact opposite of most fender guitars...thats why I bought one (to go with my tele).

[Blazer]

Heh, I just BOUGHT a Gibson, a mid nineties Les Paul Studio (the ones without the binding) of which the former owner replaced the pickups with Dimarzio humbuckers.


When picking up the guitar, it was set up with 009 strings and the bridge pickup was set in way too low but when I tried it out through a VOX AC30 the sound of the guitar floored me.

So I got it home, slapped on a set of 011 strings, adjusted the bridge pickup and adjusted the neck, that was all it needed, through my London city tube head and Marshall 4x12 cab I got that classic Les Paul-and-cooking-EL34-amp sound that you hear on classic rock albums.

The Dimarzio pickups have a little more highs, which makes for a versatile sound.

Maybe you should've tried out the V through a Marshall rather than a Fender. As for set up issues (I guess you can call me biased because I have ten years of luthiery experience) there's nothing that a little elbow grease can't fix.
Sharp fret ends: Get out 1000 grid sand paper and carefully smoothen that out.
Bowed neck: Get out the allan key and give the truss rod a yank.
Pickups not evenly matched: A screwdriver will fix that problem quite nicely when used to highten or lower the pickup in question.
Scratchy pots: Just treat them with contact spray.

Seriously, have you guys who complain about set ups in music stores, forgotten that when one of us buys a car, also does a lot of work on that car himself to get it right? How many of you for example change the oil yourself or install a CD/MP3 player or aplies his or her own touches?

You guys seem to think that every guitar in the shop needs to play heavenly, its a simple truth that it's not the case. Because everyone of us prefers another set up, those guitars are set up in a way that each of us can adjust it to his or her own needs after we get it home. My Gibson was not properly set up, it had strings that felt horrible and yet I saw that with a little TLC I could bring out its full potential.

[stringeddemigod]

Working at a Gibson Dealer and selling that crap is definitely what turned me off of them. I could tell Gibson factory and repair stories that would make you skin crawl. For instance, I have a buddy in their repair shop (who will remain unnamed) who actually witnessed a newbie destroy a guy's 78 explorer that was in for a refin. He went to sand part of the body on a huge belt and faced ti the wrong way and the guitar flew out of his hands and more or less shattered. Apparently the neck was salvageable but the body was not. They actually took a brand new explorer body off the line that weighed about the same as his guitar and set his neck to it with the old serial refined put the old elctronics in and gave back to him. He was apparently none the wiser.

I used to have to send about 5 335s back to the factory before I could get one with an exceptable sunburst to sell.

In short, I'm not a fan.

I do Have an 68' J-50 though... that's different