engine missing - need advice

[11 Gauge]

I'm trying to cobble up enough $$ for a down payment on a new ride, but I won't be there for a while (couple of months or so).

In the meanwhile, I have a 4 cyl '97 Camry with 200K that I'm trying to nurse along. The engine misses at idle pretty significantly, but never stalls. It's also begun to miss during acceleration, so the problem is progressing...

I replaced the spark plugs about 6 months ago, and everything was fine back then. I recently visually inspected the plug wires, vacuum lines, and anything else that may have been visually overt, but everything checks out.

I really don't want to put any money into this car, so I need advice. Should I just throw in the towel, or are there any simple tests I can perform? I know that vacuum leaks are a PITA to locate, and I probably have a few with 200K on the car.

The car ran absolutely fine up until about 3 weeks ago. Smooth idle, no surging, stumbling, or anything. Kinda odd (IMO) to go from no problem to one that even a blind person could feel sitting in the car...

Advice?

[wierdOne]

engine missing - need advice

go find it.



:)

i'm sure someone will chime in with advice.... just had to post that.. :)

[martyb1]

Thats a tough one.There are so many things it could be.Are they any other signs?Started using oil,smoking,gas fumes etc.

[Guitfiddler]

Could be lots of things, injectors are the first thing that comes to mind if its been recently tuned.

Did you do a full tune up or just replace the wires? Fuel pump/O2 sensor/ect?

[eryque]

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

I'm trying to cobble up enough $$ for a down payment on a new ride, but I won't be there for a while (couple of months or so).

In the meanwhile, I have a 4 cyl '97 Camry with 200K that I'm trying to nurse along. The engine misses at idle pretty significantly, but never stalls. It's also begun to miss during acceleration, so the problem is progressing...

I replaced the spark plugs about 6 months ago, and everything was fine back then. I recently visually inspected the plug wires, vacuum lines, and anything else that may have been visually overt, but everything checks out.

I really don't want to put any money into this car, so I need advice. Should I just throw in the towel, or are there any simple tests I can perform? I know that vacuum leaks are a PITA to locate, and I probably have a few with 200K on the car.

The car ran absolutely fine up until about 3 weeks ago. Smooth idle, no surging, stumbling, or anything. Kinda odd (IMO) to go from no problem to one that even a blind person could feel sitting in the car...

Advice?

I was going to start my answer with "where did you have it last?" :-)

As long as you still have good compression and the engine isn't leaking (or burning) anything, there's no reason to believe that with the right maintenance it won't keep going for quite a while.

Plugs and wires are a good place to start. I don't think vacuum would cause that. How about the injectors? Dirty injectors could cause similar behavior. I had a car for a while that required me to run some super concentrated injector cleaner through it every 6 months.

It might be worthwhile to take it to a good diagnostic shop and have them give it a once over.

[neocaster]

You replaced the plugs and that helped for a while. Have you pulled the fairly new plugs and visually inspected? They'll tell you a lot about what's happening in the engine:

http://www.spark-plugs.co.uk/pages/t.../diagnosis.htm

[superchicken_VI]

Check your fuel filter. If you haven't replaced it lately, that can be an issue.

[buddywayne]

With that kind of mileage the plug wires would be the first thing I would
suspect.

[1293]

Are you getting a CEL? If there's a fault you can decipher the code from the led on the ecu. No access to a scan tool? Barring a vacuum leak (best fixed by replacing all of the hoses), I'm gonna go with MAF sensor.

[11 Gauge]

No codes, burning, leaking, or any other symptoms.

Only the plugs were replaced - not the wires, or any other tuneup parts (other than PCV and air filter, but it's been awhile with those).

The car still gets the same mileage as when I bought it - this seems to indicate that the rings, valvetrain, etc. should be good. I also had the timing belt replaced about 20K back.

Normally I'd replace plug wires in a heartbeat, but decent ones are $70 for this car. If that's not it and I continue with the empirical shotgun method, the money could add up fast for replacement EGR valves, check valves, IAC units, etc. etc.

I was about to replace the fuel filter yesterday, but it's a bit of a PITA on this car (buried under wires, hoses, assemblies, brackets, etc.). Also, I read that a clogged FF typically prevents a fuel injected engine from running. At the bare minimum, it's supposed to first reveal itself under load - by the time it's an issue at idle, the car won't idle at all!

It sounds like I need to pull the plugs and check them. Luckily, they all have a nice coat of anti-sieze on them. The ones I pulled 6 months ago looked great - dry, no signs of fouling, detonation, or similar...

BTW - any recommendations on fuel treatments that actually work? All of the stuff I've ever tried didn't seem to do anything other than remove some money from my wallet.

[51tele]

It would probably be worth while to put the car in the shop for diagnostics--------they will pin point the problem and then you can decide what to do--rather than spending more than you need

[Dave_O]

with anything that has cylinders, I was taught you check

1....fuel
2....spark
3....compression

Kinda think it might be gacked-up injectors or pump; sometimes you get water from condensation in the underground tanks, and the countermeasures only work if their maintainence is up to scratch. I have seen 3 litres (about 3/4 of a gallon) in the bottom of a fuel tank- from 1 fill!! If the FF has clogged, your injection system is next on the hitlist. Maybe.

[Lost_N_Austin]

First, I think Blind people have heightened senses and might feel a miss even before a sighted person but maybe you meant something else.

If the miss is constant, you might be able to isolate it to one cylinder by disconnecting one wire at a time. If the wire is removed and it still misses, you are on to something. If so you could try to replace just one wire. It is likely that it is just the first wire to fail or is only one of the wires beginning to fail however so you will just be putting off the inevitable replacement of all wires. It could be moisture or carbon tracking inside the distributor cap. WD 40 sprayed inside will displace moisture. Just spray and then wipe it clean. Carbon tracking can be hard to spot inside the cap. Try looking under the hood with the engine running in the darkest place you can find. Often times a spark will be jumping from the wires. Use a spray bottle of H20 and spray a very fine mist of water over the engine while it is running (in the dark). I’ve had cars light up like a Christmas tree when this was done. Bad Wires.

If it is the injectors, a simple additive might not help. The additive can’t get to the clog because, guess what, It’s clogged. They (mechanics) can hook up a canister of a solvent based fuel replacement and run the engine till the bottle is expended and this will often clean the injectors. The Berryman B12 Chemtool carburetor cleaner (liquid, not the aerosol can) can sometimes help with both water and injector problems.

Use the aerosol can of B12 for cleaning the Mass Air Sensor.

Good luck, let us know.

L_N_A

[Catweazle]

This is one problem that can occur, if you have those nasty little caps that fit over the screw thread on the top of your spark plug (what you put the connector of the wire over). If one of those is loose, you'll get a misfire. When you inspect the wires, take a moment to check that all the caps are tight.

[11 Gauge]

I guess my problem is that this isn't like similar issues I've had in other cars:

- I had one where the filter plugged. It burnt out the tank pump, and the car wouldn't run.

- I had one where the plug wires were leaking. The entire powerband was affected, I got black smoke out of the tailpipe, and the fuel economy went to pot.

- I had one where the pressure regulator on the rail went up. Black smoke, poor fuel economy, and basically no driveability throughout the power range.

This time around, it's odd. The engine simply won't stall. The fuel economy isn't affected, at all. No check engine light, no codes. No smoke of any color. It doesn't matter if the engine's hot or cold. When it does it, there's no real time period between misses - it might be 2 minutes, it might be 40 seconds.

It seems that there should be some other telltale signs if it were fuel or spark. Maybe I'm just in a state of denial.

[superchicken_VI]

Advance Auto lists NGK plug wires for $45. At 200k, you're more than due.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by Catweazle

This is one problem that can occur, if you have those nasty little caps that fit over the screw thread on the top of your spark plug (what you put the connector of the wire over). If one of those is loose, you'll get a misfire. When you inspect the wires, take a moment to check that all the caps are tight.

That's the very first thing that I checked, because those "caps" are about a half a foot long on this engine.

So far, I've checked them 3 times...

[superchicken_VI]

Remember, the filter might not be plugged, just seriously impeded.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by superchicken_VI

At 200k, you're more than due.

That's why I'm wondering if it's time to call it quits. The car is well overdue for A LOT more stuff than just the plug wires.

It sounds like other than inspecting the plugs and trying to create misfiring on the wires that I could end up throwing good money at bad.

[RotelliCaster]

If you haven't ever cleaned the inside of the throttle body, this may be your problem. This isn't something that fuel additives will touch. I had some issues with my 2001 Toyota tundra Missing at Idle, it would even die at stop lights every once and a while. I had about 125K on it at the time and the shop said my K&N filter was causing oil to build up on my Mass Airflow Sensor.
NOPE! they said that they were going to clean the MAS and replace my filter with a stock Paper filter, for a charge of $70 bucks. I told them that was a steep charge for a shot of contact cleaner and a filter, and not to bother.
The shop opted not to charge me at all and said that, this was the only explanation they could find for my problem. They claimed that they read it on-line somewhere that this should be my fix. I explained that I had cleaned and even replaced the MAS before bringing the truck to them. a little more research brought me to a Camry forum I think, and a similar problem was solved by cleaning the throttle body.

I made sure I purchase Throttle Body cleaner and not Carb Cleaner as I read there is a coating in the TB that you don't want damaged. I pulled the intake tube and opened the butterfly and HOLY CRAP! The TB had a nasty coating of soot, tar, junk.... I sprayed it down and scrubbed it with an old tooth brush, cleaning the walls and exposing the small holes (Ventura Jets).
I let all the crud run where it did, both out of the TB, but mostly down it's throat. After I re-assembled it I fired it up, it cough out a ball of black smoke and then ran like a top! I then cleaned the TB on my 1977 FI Beetle with the same results.

Your problem could be this simple. It will take you less time to try this then it did for me to type this post.

Ciao

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by RotelliCaster

Your problem could be this simple.

It sure could. AAMOF, every throttle body that I've inspected with more than 70K on it was pretty heavily coated, even with good gas and regular filter changes...

I had a Jetta that needed another TPS, and it required the TB to be removed. I spent more time de-gunking the TB than I did replacing the sensor.

Thanks.

[boris bubbanov]

I'd run a simple compression test on the motor.

Why? Well I had an Austin and was getting great gas mileage even while the compression was going away on me. That one test can eliminate the rings, blown head gasket, valve train and timing belt assembly as a culprit.

Next, if those plug wires are original, by all means try some others, even if you have to borrow some.

That's enough to start.


Bubban0v


When I read the topic, I immediately though of my old pal who came back from vacation and the front of his Camaro there in the driveway seemed to be sitting a bit high. Yup, his brand new crate motor was missing and off somewhere assisting in the lurid launches and powerslides of some other fun GM car.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by superchicken_VI

Advance Auto lists NGK plug wires for $45. At 200k, you're more than due.

AAP (at least the one near me) also has a very nice scan tool

After months of cheapskate fiddling techniques with the car, the CEL started to come on last Friday. I spent the better part of this weekend checking every sensor, vac line, what have you.

AAP's scan tool revealed multiple cylinder misfires, so I finally broke down and bought a set of wires (they're $60 now - that's what I get for being cheap!).

The car now runs like it just came off the assembly line.

The date stamped on the old wires was........1996!

Don't you love a happy ending?