Is this ebay seller a crook ???????

[pengipete]

No doubt from that info that the photo as shown was not signed. The signature may be genuine but comes form a different source.

"Goofy" is a nicer word than I would use for it or for the sort of people who take advantage of others trust or innocence.

Pete

P.S. Don't go away - we still love you. Group Hug!

[Flat357]

Originally Posted by pengipete

P.S. Don't go away - we still love you. Group Hug!

+1

[robt57]

Originally Posted by studio1087

What a goofy way to make $10. It's really goofy (in my opinion).

10.00+10.00+10.00+10.00 etc...

[wooderson]

We've established the sellers wording is possibly misleading , but crooked we are not agreed on .

You asked a question - are other sellers with similar items using different language - and I answered it. I didn't say a thing about crooked.

[PMC70]

Well, I don't know what to say other than better luck next time. Call it a relatively cheap learning experience I guess. I wouldn't bother retracting the negative feedback, since obviously the seller is duping people by using wording that can be taken several ways and construed in even more. It's what feedback is for; to protect the buyers.

Here's the Merriam-Webster definition.

1pre·print
Pronunciation: \ˈprē-ˌprint, ˌprē-ˈprint\
Function: noun
Date: 1889
1 : an issue of a technical paper often in preliminary form before its publication in a journal
2 : something (as an advertisement) printed before the rest of the publication in which it is to appear.

On a personal note I never bother giving someone the business for any shipped item if the shipping rate seems too high. I got hit(once) by the shipping demon on a $25 one-spot power supply from some crook from FLA. My fault for clicking prematurely without reading the entire listing. He got me for $23 shipping. Pricetag on shipping invoice? Something like $5

Live and learn. Whenever I've sold items, I always put "Buyer to pay actual shipping costs. I'm not in the shipping business." My own little personal shot at people that think that a trip to the post office constitutes a $10 to $20 handling fee.

However for every crook out there, there's always another really honest seller. I recently bought a small bottle of Acheson shielding paint from an Ebay seller who refunded me $4 of the $11 shipping because he overquoted me on the shipping price. Great guy.

[Catweazle]

I still think it's a scam, designed to catch the unwary (sorry). The term "autographed preprint" is clearly stating that a preprint was autographed, not that an autographed photograph was "preprinted". A subtle but important difference.
Definition of an autograph:
"something written by one's own hand"
"a document written entirely in the handwriting of its author"
"A signature written by the individual to whom it belongs"
The "preprint" fulfills none of those definitions, so "autographed preprint" is misleading, at best. "Preprint of an autographed / signed photograph" would be an accurate and honest description - but she's unlikely to sell any of those, is she?
If the signature was lifted from another document and grafted onto an unsigned photo, "autographed photograph" is a downright lie and totally fraudulent.
At the end of the day, the price doesn't matter, fraud is fraud. In my opinion, the auction was carefully worded to mislead and give the impression that you were buying something you were not. That, in my book, is fraud.

There's a story, supposedly true, of a man who sold "signed photographs of "John the Baptist" for $5 a pop. He sold thousands. That was until the complaints started rolling in to the police. The pictures were sent from Mexico and contained a photo of a Mexican man and bore the signature "Juan Baptista". Honest, fraud, misleading?

[NewOldStock]

What would Judge Judy Say?

Auction title-

Shelby Lynne preprint SEXY HOT Signed Photo

"Shelby Lynne" is the main topic. "SEXY HOT" is either describing Shelby or the photo. All that's left are the words "preprint signed photo".

Did we receive a "preprint signed photo" or not? I would have left negative feedback if I didn't receive one.

And the first sentence of the description also states it's a preprint-

This is an 8X10 MINT condition Glossy autographed preprint which will arrive to you in perfect condition.

[Catweazle]

Originally Posted by NewOldStock

What would Judge Judy Say?

Auction title-


"Shelby Lynne" is the main topic. "SEXY HOT" is either describing Shelby or the photo. All that's left are the words "preprint signed photo".

Did we receive a "preprint signed photo" or not? I would have left negative feedback if I didn't receive one.

And the first sentence of the description also states it's a preprint-

Right, but it categorically states that it's an "autographed" preprint, i.e. a preprint that has been autographed - and that is patently not the case. At best it is a preprint of an autographed photograph.
Worse, it appears that the signature was not originally made onto the photograph - it was lifted from somewhere and added to an unsigned photo. That is under no circumstances a "signed photo", because no-one has actually signed the photograph.
Furthermore, how can you give a certificate of authenticity to a copy? You can give authentication to the fact that it the original signature was from the person stated and that the copy is of an original signature. The seller, though, gave a certificate of authentication to the signature on the photo as being authentic, which is untrue - as it's a copy, it can't be authentic.
Definition of authentic:
"not counterfeit or copied; "an authentic signature""

Definition of fraud:
"An intentional perversion of truth; deceitful practice or device resorted to with intent to deprive another of property or other right."
"In the broadest sense, a fraud is a deception made for personal gain. "


I think the seller, on the basis of those definitions, has indulged in fraud.

[Jelly]

I read through this thread not understanding the use of the word "PREPRINT" in this context.

Then somebody posted the wording of other auctions and it dawned on me. A preprinted autograph would mean it was a facsimile of an autograph which was then printed mechanically - like a letter from Publisher's Clearinghouse which has Ed McMahon's signature on it. They have taken his signature and mechanically reproduced it thousands of times.

The use of PREPRINT makes sense now: "pre" meaning before, so the autograph was prepared actually before the printing of the image. The word preprint, which refers to the way the autograph was produced, has evolved through use to refer to the whole thing (the printed image itself and the preprinted autograph which is now part of the printed image).

Where the fraud comes in is the fact that this seller is obviously making her own "preprints" and selling them as if they are authentic preprints (an authentic preprint would be one which was produced by somebody authorized to use the initial real signature of the artist to make the mechanical copies).

I don't know if that clears it up for anybody else, but it does to me! The seller is being dishonest in my opinion. But the stakes are low, so the seller probably hasn't had any real trouble, yet.

[superchicken_VI]

I don't think she's a crook, I think she used some terminology in a casual manner that you weren't familiar with and dismissed. If my mother read a description of a "Fender Telecaster relic", she would believe that it was an old guitar, not a new one made to look old. It's not misleading or crooked to list the guitar that way, because it's accepted terminology around those who mess with them. I'm guessing that "preprint" falls into the same grounds. Cut your losses, learn your lesson, and move on.

[Catweazle]

Originally Posted by Jelly

I read through this thread not understanding the use of the word "PREPRINT" in this context.

Then somebody posted the wording of other auctions and it dawned on me. A preprinted autograph would mean it was a facsimile of an autograph which was then printed mechanically - like a letter from Publisher's Clearinghouse which has Ed McMahon's signature on it. They have taken his signature and mechanically reproduced it thousands of times.

The use of PREPRINT makes sense now: "pre" meaning before, so the autograph was prepared actually before the printing of the image. The word preprint, which refers to the way the autograph was produced, has evolved through use to refer to the whole thing (the printed image itself and the preprinted autograph which is now part of the printed image).

Where the fraud comes in is the fact that this seller is obviously making her own "preprints" and selling them as if they are authentic preprints (an authentic preprint would be one which was produced by somebody authorized to use the initial real signature of the artist to make the mechanical copies).

I don't know if that clears it up for anybody else, but it does to me! The seller is being dishonest in my opinion. But the stakes are low, so the seller probably hasn't had any real trouble, yet.

It is the difference between "eine signierte Kopie eines Bildes" (which is what an "autographed preprint" is) and "eine Kopie eines signierten Bildes" (which is, maybe, what he got). It comes down to who signed what. Only something physically signed by the person in question can be said to be autographed. A copy of a signature is not an autograph.

Although the amount is small, it is the principle of the thing, not least because it sours EBay for the honest buyers and sellers.

[surfoverb]

So you got an 8X10 glossy photo for $.01? sounds like a good deal.

[whodatpat]

You have waisted more than $10 worth of your time whining about being a sucker.
Why dont you learn from your mistakes and quit blaming the world? Must the world always protect you from your own greed? You were trying to get something that was priceless to you for a penny! Your greed blurred your vision of reality.

[Jelly]

Originally Posted by Catweazle

It is the difference between "eine signierte Kopie eines Bildes" (which is what an "autographed preprint" is) and "eine Kopie eines signierten Bildes" (which is, maybe, what he got).

From what the original poster described, I don't think he even got that! I think he got a copy of an 8x10 which had either a forged or scanned signature (found on the internet somewhere) slapped onto it by the seller.

Although the amount is small, it is the principle of the thing, not least because it sours EBay for the honest buyers and sellers.

I agree completely - fraud is fraud. If what we think is happening is really happening then I bet this seller will get a lot of heat eventually.

[NewOldStock]

Definition of fraud:
"An intentional perversion of truth; deceitful practice or device resorted to with intent to deprive another of property or other right."
"In the broadest sense, a fraud is a deception made for personal gain. "

Definitions of Sucker:
"a person who is easily deceived by scams, advertisements, etc.:
"a person that was tricked"
"One who is easily deceived; a dupe."
"One that is indiscriminately attracted to something specified."

I really think the buyer got exactly what was described in the auction. I live in the sticks, bordering the Red Lake Indian Reservation, a few miles from the nearest human, and even I knew what a preprint was. Probably from the poster displays I've seen at Walmart, Media Play and such, on my visits to modern civilization. Sometimes when we're around something fairly often we stop seeing it.


I have one of these(below) hanging on my gunroom wall. I ordered it as "A signed copy of the Declaration of Independence". Yep, I was a little angry when the original didn't show up, since that was what I thought I'd purchased for $3.99, but I learned from this mistake. And it's still a cool thing to have.

[Easydog]

winning bid $.01 ...... c'mon.

[studio1087]

Originally Posted by whodatpat

You have waisted more than $10 worth of your time whining about being a sucker.
Why dont you learn from your mistakes and quit blaming the world? Must the world always protect you from your own greed? You were trying to get something that was priceless to you for a penny! Your greed blurred your vision of reality.

Greed?

I just thought it was interesting. It is certainly complicated. Lot's of complicated comments are popping up. People have started threads about breakfast cereal in this section. This is thread about buying autographed pictures of musicians.

Blaming the world? Nope....only Ellen. Greed? Wow.

You sound pretty cranky sweet heart. Try not to beat your dog today. Good luck in jail.

[pengipete]

That'll teach you not to come here looking for good advice and sympathy.

So anyway, I've got this Elizabethan gramophone for sale...

[wooderson]

winning bid $.01 ...... c'mon.

But shipping was $7.25 - and probably cost the seller no more than a dollar for an envelope and postage.

[Flat357]

Originally Posted by wooderson

But shipping was $7.25 - and probably cost the seller no more than a dollar for an envelope and postage.

I used to think like that , untill I started selling stuff .

Soon I realised that I had to go to the shops , or order online , to get packaging material .
Then it would take me x amount of time to wrap something for postage .

Then I had to travel to the post office , and stand in a queue to be able to post it and get a receipt , before returning home . Is fuel free , or do we all live next door to the post office ?

So the seller sold a photo , with frame , for $0.01 .
Ebay and Paypal both charged her for this sale .

How much do you earn per hour ?

How long to get the product , get the packaging , wrap it , travel to the PO and post it ?

Still feel the same ?

[wooderson]

(for some reason I keep referring to the seller as a woman - dunno if that was mentioned somewhere or if it's because the picture in question is of a woman. Sticking with it just because.)

I do sell 'stuff' and I do feel that way, yeah. Because that's how this kind of online business runs - selling cheap items and charging extra for shipping.

Her profit for the "one cent" item is entirely what she makes over and above her actual shipping costs - which are maybe a quarter for the hard plastic sleeve (not a frame) and an envelope (no need for a bubble mailer with the sleeve), plus postage.

If the time spent purchasing the packing materials 'costs' the seller more than what's left out of $7.25 shipping, then she's simply made a bad decision about her online business, and that shouldn't be anyone else's problem.

[whodatpat]

Originally Posted by studio1087

Greed?

I just thought it was interesting. It is certainly complicated. Lot's of complicated comments are popping up. People have started threads about breakfast cereal in this section. This is thread about buying autographed pictures of musicians.

Blaming the world? Nope....only Ellen. Greed? Wow.

You sound pretty cranky sweet heart. Try not to beat your dog today. Good luck in jail.

Yep. Your a sucker. At the heart of it the greed of a deal too good to pass up got the best of you. You tried to pick up something worth about $40 for a penny. Next time pay market price and tell us if it dosent work out.
I have given you a head start here. http://www.jgautographs.com/item.aspx?id=136934

[studio1087]

I bought something else