Good Vehicles for Urban Roads?

[11 Gauge]

Update:

My Camry now has close to 200K on it, with little maintenance other than the basics.

I work downtown, in a neighborhood that will never see freshly paved roads. This doesn't even take into account the roads on the way in and out...

The Camry had nary a rattle or buzz when I got it back in '01. Now, a chuckwagon full of pots and pans would sound quieter...

Latest development - stumbling at idle, after the car's been driven for about 10 minutes (the first traffic light I hit leaving the city). No check engine lights or anything, but I know what's coming soon to a theater near me - and the B.B. value on this car doesn't even warrant a tuneup (plus I got hit by a school bus about a month ago).

Previously, I wanted something with better mpg than the Camry. Even with the high mileage, I've been averaging 25. Currently, at 50 bucks a fillup, it's starting to hurt. Fuel economy is still important, but I need something that can take a pounding on urban roads. BAD urban roads in neighborhoods that are on the skids...

Is there a happy medium that I should be looking at?

I've got a '94 Toyota RWD p/u - only 52K on the ODO, but no PS/ABS/airbags, and 22 mpg tops. I'm also a softie when it comes to A.C., which the truck doesn't have (I have allergies, and the A.C. helps substantially). The real problem with the truck is the 12 gallon tank - 240 miles goes by fast!

Thoughts? Am I asking to have my cake and eat it, too?

Be cruel and blunt, please...

[boris bubbanov]

You've uncovered the 3 'weaknesses' in the Toyota Camry.

1) Not worth keeping once wrecked;

2) Unlike a Mercury Marquis or a Saab 900, 200K is about all she wrote;

3) V-6 Gas mileage could be a lot better.


But, you could do a lot worse than find another almost new 4 cyl. Camry.
Most extreme fuel mileage offerings are seriously overpriced or have stupidly small brakes, wheels and tires, or both.
Nothing wrong with a smaller car, but with power windows and yaw control and tons of surplus wiring and padding, power door locks, traction control, alarm systems, sunroofs, etc, the thing is up to 3,400 pounds and fuel economy will suffer.

Check out the Mazda 3, hatch version.

[superchicken_VI]

Test drive a Ford Focus. The 4-door we had in Ireland last year was amazing, with excellent fuel economy. I know it won't be as good here, but that was a great city car, and did well on bumpy roads. I'm sure it will eventually start to rattle, though.

I'm completely blown away by my wife's Mini Cooper, also. Great economy, easy to get around crowded cities, and an absolute blast to drive. You're better off buying new, because resale value is amazingly high, and they include your maintenance for 3 years. You can get a new one without a lot of extra toys for under $20k if you want a manual transmission. With her automatic and a mix of driving conditions, she's getting about 36mpg.

Also, the smart4two should be hitting the US now, and it's the minicar from Mercedes. Go to the smart website for more info, but a 40+mpg 5 speed automatic starts at around $11k, and was made for city driving. It's amazing how resilient these cars are in crash tests.

[stephent2]

Given that the rough roads are your concern I'd at least take a test drive in any model Subaru, the sedans even do great on rough (and snow covered) roads.

I had a Subaru Forester ('04) and i will say it had an amazing suspension, particularly when the road gets rough, off road they are unstoppable. They have a decent amount of room, OK gas milage (not great) and are very reliable.

I'd also look at a Honda Fit, great gas milage and tons of room, although I don't know about the car on rough roads.

[stephent2]

Originally Posted by superchicken_VI

Test drive a Ford Focus. The 4-door we had in Ireland last year was amazing, with excellent fuel economy. I know it won't be as good here, but that was a great city car, and did well on bumpy roads. I'm sure it will eventually start to rattle, though.

I'm completely blown away by my wife's Mini Cooper, also. Great economy, easy to get around crowded cities, and an absolute blast to drive. You're better off buying new, because resale value is amazingly high, and they include your maintenance for 3 years. You can get a new one without a lot of extra toys for under $20k if you want a manual transmission. With her automatic and a mix of driving conditions, she's getting about 36mpg.

Also, the smart4two should be hitting the US now, and it's the minicar from Mercedes. Go to the smart website for more info, but a 40+mpg 5 speed automatic starts at around $11k, and was made for city driving. It's amazing how resilient these cars are in crash tests.

I love the the Minis but they have a very stiff suspension, it is a bone shaker on rough roads and the reviews on the Smart (though I love the design) are pretty medium. In the reviews I've read no one got out of the mid to high 30s in mpg (automatic). I'd want more that that if I was saddled with only 70 HP.

[tiktok]

Originally Posted by stephent2

In the reviews I've read no one got out of the mid to high 30s in mpg (automatic). I'd want more that that if I was saddled with only 70 HP.

Bear in mind that that Smart weighs 1600lbs, about half what your Camry does. The weight-to-horsepower ratio is what you want to really consider.

[superchicken_VI]

The Mini is pretty stiff, but not too bad with the base wheel and tire package. If you get to the 16" or bigger, or the run-flats, they're stiff as a board. Also, the sport mode for the steering and brakes makes a huge difference in the perceived stiffness. My wife's isn't too bad, but the other pluses definitely outweigh that minus. The definite plus is it's so small it's very easy to maneuver, park, and dodge problems in city conditions.

[CharlieO]

I would agree with several of the previous suggestions, (Mazda3, 4 cylinder Camry, Mini Cooper), and I would add the Prius, the VW Jetta, and maybe the Honda Civic or Accord. If you want a multi-purpose vehicle, I think that the Honda Element and Scion xB are pretty nice vehicles. I like all of these cars, and would probably own something small like this if I could. Unfortunately, my job requires a luxury sedan.

I drove a Smart ForTwo recently, and I really don't think it's suitable for most American drivers. They're cheap, but that's about all I can say for them.

[martyb1]

Well I have to say that this is one vehicle that has surprised me.We live in the country and our mail has to be picked up every day.My Aunt runs the mail route,5 days a week all year long.She needed something that has a closed back and wanted something good on fuel.She use to have a Dodge Caravan.Ya I know what you think,but she quit driving it when it turned 400,000 Km.
She had such good luck with the Chrysler product she decided to try one of these



She just went past the 100,000 k mark,not a problem.46 MPG and she has to drive 90 miles a day on gravel,rain or snow.She was a bit concerned about the drivetrain(no transmission).It has some type of belt drive but has not given her a minutes trouble,even in -40* temps.Also has a cool feature in the glove box


The A/C runs through the box to keep your beverages cold

[stephent2]

Originally Posted by tiktok

Bear in mind that that Smart weighs 1600lbs, about half what your Camry does. The weight-to-horsepower ratio is what you want to really consider.

Absolutely, and I haven't driven one but the reviews suggest the motor labors even with that weight so you end up in the upper range of the powerband all the time eating up your gas milage. I really dug the Smarts I saw in Europe but at that price point I'd have to go w/ the Fit, it gets better gas milage, more room and it's fun to drive plus you have Honda's proven track record.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by superchicken_VI

Test drive a Ford Focus. The 4-door we had in Ireland last year was amazing,

The Euro-Focus and the North American F*ck-us are not the same car at all.

If in Europe, by all means look at the Focus. The one we have here could be far worse, but look to the Euro-Focus' sister cars, which are sold stateside: The Mazda 3 and the Volvo S40.

Another cool car is the Saturn Astra. Like the Aura, it is GM-Europe in origin, available for about $ 18K.

Bubba, are you OK? You just recommended a Volvo and a Saturn in the same post. Two car labels that have been saved by specific models only; buy other models of these brands at your own risk.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

You've uncovered the 3 'weaknesses' in the Toyota Camry.

1) Not worth keeping once wrecked;

2) Unlike a Mercury Marquis or a Saab 900, 200K is about all she wrote;

3) V-6 Gas mileage could be a lot better.

I have the 4 cyl. now (averages 27 mpg - highway only is obviously much better).

The car has endured being hit over 10 times. The latest hit by the school bus was in the same area as 4 times previous - left rear quarterpanel, behind the wheel well. This seems to be where most of these Camrys get hit.

Funny you mention the 900 - I went to check one out some years back (used). It was DOA, the seller was firm on the price, but wouldn't put any money into it to get it running. They let me poke under the hood, and I liked what I saw (being an old VW owner) - all the Bosch FI and such looked immediately familiar.

I like some of the recommendations, but think that I'm in a pickle. Most of those cars would probably be rattled loose in short order. The average strut is no match for the roads I drive on. The plus with the Camry is a soft suspension, but even it has been beaten up (of course - 200K on the original struts, this is to be expected).

I'm gonna check out the Subarus, but I'm leery of parts costs (I get most of my Toyota stuff from a local rebuilder or TAP in Arizona, and have saved huge bucks). My wife and sis-in-law have Volvos that are breaking the bank. I had an '89 Jetta that was a money pit - I vowed to steer clear of the Euro cars after that one.

The ultimate would be an FJ cruiser, but I don't even want to know the est. MPG on one of those.

I liked the Ford Escape before it got obese in the last few years, but I'm sure that the earlier ones probably have wimpy struts and such. I've seen the stock rear drums, and they look sad.

I guess I either need a beater for the city roads, or something off-road approved that can take a beating, and just suck up the poor/fair fuel economy.

I'm also very gun-shy with Dodges. The folks I know that've bought one in the past few years have all had early-on problems like blown seals at 10K and such. I didn't know they offered a CVT model. It's worth a look if it can handle rough asphalt and concrete.

The Coopers are a blast to drive - my sister and her husband had one. Total bone shaker, though, I agree. Everything gets hit downtown in these parts, no matter how small. xAs, Fits, Priuses, Civics, and Yarises abound everywhere with caved in quarter panels and bumpers.

[jwsamuel]

Originally Posted by stephent2

Given that the rough roads are your concern I'd at least take a test drive in any model Subaru, the sedans even do great on rough (and snow covered) roads.

+1...I had a 1999 Forester that was a great car and now have an '06 Outback that is equally good. Both would well-serve the purpose stated by the original poster.

Jim

[Jakedog]

Cleveland is the land of car swallowing pot-holes. No joke. My wife drives an '03 Grand Prix, that we bought in '04, and in less than four years I have replaced six tires and two rims, not to mention all the suspension work I've had to pay for because craters are just plain un-avoidable in these parts.

Now, I drive an '01 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4X4. And I beat the holy hell out of it both on and off road. I am NOT kind to this truck. It's got 120K on it currently, and runs like new. I took it in monday for it's first ever shop visit (outside of one alignment, oil changes, tires and brakes) to have the u-joints replaced. My mechanic says ball joints, tie rods, wheel bearings, everything, all good. Still almost like new. I have never blown a tire or bent a rim, everything's tight, and the only rattle it ever had turn out to be a loose spare tire mounting bolt. Not to mention, in 4WD it tracks through six or eight inches of snow like it's on dry pavement. It is the toughest thing I've ever driven, and laughs in the face of Cleveland's worst axel breakers.

The MPG sucks. About 22-24 on the highway, 16-18 in the city. But the trade off is that gas is made more affordable because I don't have to repair it constantly from road damage. To me, the piece of mind is worth it. I like driving a truck that will take a serious beating without falling apart. It's saved me a ton of dough in the three + years I've owned it, when compared to my previous vehicles. YMMV.


Jake

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by Jakedog

The MPG sucks. About 22-24 on the highway, 16-18 in the city. But the trade off is that gas is made more affordable because I don't have to repair it constantly from road damage.

I think that this is the voice of reason I hear in the back of my brain, even if it isn't a particularly green one...

My '94 pickup with only 50K on it feels brand new (if a bit bouncy and crude).

[Jakedog]

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

I think that this is the voice of reason I hear in the back of my brain, even if it isn't a particularly green one...

My '94 pickup with only 50K on it feels brand new (if a bit bouncy and crude).

I try to be as green as I can in almost every area of my life, it's really important to me. I just try to think about all of the car parts that stay ON the truck and functioning, instead of being busted and cast into scrap piles, landfills, etc. One thing I'm looking into, is I just heard about an aftermarket intake/aircleaner set-up for this truck that supposedly adds horsepower (not that it needs it, it's a beast) and also adds 4-6 mpg. I think it costs around $1500, but with a mileage increase like that, it would pay for itself in short order. I need to research it, but if it really does what it says it does, I'm getting one.



Jake

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by Jakedog

and also adds 4-6 mpg. I think it costs around $1500, but with a mileage increase like that, it would pay for itself in short order.

This is actually what's led me to driving the truck more. Modern spark plugs (iridium, et al), K&N and similar intake systems are the kind of things that have given me 2-5 extra mpg with the truck. If it wasn't a full frame, I could probably find other ways, but I'm happy just to have these.

I'm OCD about tire pressures. This is a great way to save money on gas.

Actually - thank you - you reminded me to look into a better exhaust system for the truck. More HP, yes, but also more mpg. I almost forgot about that one, since modern systems are stainless, and rarely need maintaining.

[stephent2]

Yeah, I'm a Saab lover, owned over two dozen, the 900 is a great car, my son's '84 has over 270k on it, w/ original engine and transmission. That said I don't ever recommend Saabs to folks, it's gotta be a car you find your way to,.. and you must know a good independent mechanic, I've known the guys I go to almost 30 years. Still for me very little comes close to the enjoyment I get from driving a Saab (in the automotive sense).

I was concerned about parts for the Subaru as well, but really never had any problems with mine. Again, an good independent garage is a good thing to know and folks love their Subbies, lot's of internet resources and help available. The 4 wheel drive kicks major ass and is the best out there w/ the possible exception of the hugely expensive to own Audi.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by stephent2

That said I don't ever recommend Saabs to folks, it's gotta be a car you find your way to,.. and you must know a good independent mechanic

I have a close friend who salvaged a 9000 or two that even a eurosport shop was dumping (auto trans failure - my friend tig welded the broken pieces with the trans still in the car, partly disassembled - it worked fine for it's remaining lifetime). Riding in his last Saab was a blast - turbocharged, responsive, and the body and subframe felt so tight (big surprise - those guys build jets). Of course, this same friend also rebuilt a Maserati Biturbo or two, put a modded '67 Merc Cougar engine in an 80's F250, and rebuilt a Crown Vic with the high speed pursuit package...

My indie mechanic (wife has a love affair with Volvos) informed me that the new Saabs get timing belts replaced every 30K! That was enough to scare me off, for good!

[CharlieO]

I just realized that the late '80's-early '90's Mercedes 300E that we were discussing in a thread a week or two ago might be a good option, if you don't have a problem with buying an older vehicle. You can find plenty of low-mileage 300E's if you look hard enough. The gas mileage is good, and I'm told that you can use regular gas. Repair costs might be higher than for some cars, but the initial investment is modest. There are plenty of these running around with a couple of hundred thousand miles on them, and I don't think that too many of them are rattletraps. If you're concerned about fuel economy, check out the diesel version, the 300D.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/bad-dog-c...thusiasts.html

[stephent2]

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

My indie mechanic (wife has a love affair with Volvos) informed me that the new Saabs get timing belts replaced every 30K! That was enough to scare me off, for good!

Of all the things i dislike about GM, what they've done to the Saab brand is still a ways down the list. The 9-7x??? Please. The 9-1 due in 2010 will be Swedish designed and built, so I haven't lost complete faith in the brand.

I have an