Lefty Bender??

[candh]

Hey Fellas,

I did a search but I've yet to find anything conclusive on the availability of a lefty B-bender. I like the look of the Timara but I'm sure that would be a "one off" for Tim to make. The hipshot looks like a possibility IF the slide range on the shaft allows that much of an adjustment. Any thoughts or help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Chris

[helle_man]

You can move the arm to use on any of the 6 strings. All you need is a pair of snap ring pliers. Pretty easy.

WR

[candh]

Originally Posted by helle_man

You can move the arm to use on any of the 6 strings. All you need is a pair of snap ring pliers. Pretty easy.

WR

Thank you for the confirmation Ray-sama. That made my day.

[Chet Johnson]

Could you try learning to play right handed to utilize the Timara? Lol.

[candh]

Thank you for the response Tim. I figured it would require a re-tooling. After a little more searching I found the McVay has a lefty option. That's a pretty serious commitment with shipping from Japan though...hmmm.

Chet....I COULD do a lot of things......

...like get married for the FREE sex

...or buy a 747 for the yummy complimentary peanuts

[Chet Johnson]

Well, if it helps, thee is NO upcharge for Charlie McVay to go left handed. I've ALWAYS favored spendingthe money once on what you really want.

Charlie is the nicest guy around. He even modified a poorly working Bill Bores saddle bender to work with no issues for me.

[Rick Towne]

After seeing this guy Will Ray and the Gila Monsters at the Palomino in 1989, I tracked down Dave Borisoff at his old Van Nuys shop and got my first Hipshot in 1990. No problem putting it on a lefty '89 G&L ASAT. I then searched for a lefty Parsons installer; when that search failed, I read about Joe Glaser, and got a Glaser b bender on the ASAT in 1992 ($400; took about three months). Played that guitar at the Greek Theatre that summer. I still have it after about ten different pickup configurations.

The next one was a Glaser double bender in a '92 ASAT Classic ($800; took 11 months as the first lefty double). I still have it with the same pickup configuration since 1996: notched bridge, Duncan JD bridge and SSL-1 middle and neck. Glaser used a Gotoh bridge, as he usually does. In 2006 Bill Bores put a stock G&L ashtray on it. I've played probably 800 church services (aka gigs) and about 50 other evnts and things (TDPRI CWF and G&L Factory Jams) with this one. It's well broken in.

Next is the Zion '50 now with a Warmouth neck. I found Music One Workshop in Calispell, MT to do a Parsons-White short throw in 2002 (two weeks $900). Brian Friend did a long throw modification in 2007.

Finally, I got another '92 ASAT Classic Leo Fender signature model into which Bill put a Parsons-White (five months $550) in 2006. Same pickup setup as the other G&L Classic. I take the G&L's in a double gig bag everywhere.

My suggestion: Since Glaser is impossibly slow now, and Bill has apparently had problems recently, and I have no experience with McVay, get Brian Friend to put a P-W long throw in your favorite Tele-style and spend some time at the Clarence White Forum.

The Glaser/McVay saddle-bender style and Parsons style are just different; neither is better, and both can be used for the short or long throw style lick.

[Chet Johnson]

I played a Fender Tele with a Parsons Greene for 11 yrs as my main guitar.

Along the way, I tried the Hipshot. It was OK I guess, not anything thatI'd buy. I bought a Timara for a spare, much better than the hipshot in its more natural movements to actuate the benders, plus its the cheapest double bender that I know of.

Last year I built a guitar that Bill bures put this Hybrid parsons B / Saddle G bender in. I liked the Parsons but the saddle bender was not so good. Charlie Mcvay modified it for me last week.
I just got my guitar back from Charlie Mcvay. It is INCREDIBLE the difference with the modification he made for me. I aready knew that his quality of his own bender was over the top, but this adds worlds to his stature. I was hugely pleased with his openness to work on a bender oter than his own.

I've played a few Crook guitars with McVay benders, and its the best system on the market. Period. www.mcvaybenders.com I can't wait to get one

[Rick Towne]

Chet:

Are you a lefty? Crook told me that he would not build lefties because, as a right handed player, he did not feel he could set them up properly. I was disappointed and did not understand this because I have never had a lefty repairman.

Bill did great mod work on my Glaser double saddle bender by replacing the Gotoh bridge. He didn't change the mechanism.

Finally, is McVay's saddle bender mechanism different from Glaser's?

[jmiles]

$800? $900? These things are crazy expensive for what they are, and what they do!

[BrianF]

Originally Posted by jmiles

$800? $900? These things are crazy expensive for what they are, and what they do!

They are expensive, but what you are paying for is the amount of hours, expert craftsmanship, and experience that goes into the custom machining of parts and the installations. If you add up the time, materials etc it's probably less than what you spend on having your car serviced by a mechanic. At the end of it...you basically have a new instrument that you can keep and play for life... Well worth it for what it does IMHO...

[jmiles]

Brian, I respectfully disagree. You're payin' almost a grand for a double bender, and you may have another grand in the guitar that you're supplying. A new D-10 Pro level pedal steel guitar is $4,000. 8 pedals, 5 knee levers. Go here:
http://steelguitaramericas.com/Products.htm
click on the pics, and see what's involved in making a pedal steel. All very high precision parts, machined from billet aluminum, within 1/10,000 on most machined parts. Compare what you're seeing with a B/G bender installation. If these bender manufacturers/installers built a pedal steel, it would cost $50,000!

[BrianF]

Jmiles I see what your saying...if you look at it from that perspective. It would be interesting to get a quote from a steelguitar builder to make a Tele bender. My guess is that it still wouldn't be cheap though. The amount of craftsmanship and machining that goes into one of those steelguitars is amazing, but I'll bet those guys make even less per hour on one of them. None of those guys are getting rich, so a certain amount of what they do...is just for the love of what they do. They just can't get the real $ value for their craft out what they sell. It's all what the market will bear, supply/demand, and competition of skilled labor costs.

[jmiles]

Well, Brian, you're right. We've temporarily shut down operations, hoping the economy will get better. We make a profit of about 25%, but much less when we sell to dealers. But, if these bender builders would get it together, and do a CNC program, instead of makin' them one at a time in their shops, the cost would go WAY down.

Edited to add; That 25% profit is actually before labor costs. So 75% of a pedal steel guitar is the materials, machining, polishing,etc.. The actual assembly costs come out of the 25%. So, yeah, we weren't getting rich!

[Rick Towne]

Originally Posted by jmiles

$800? $900? These things are crazy expensive for what they are, and what they do!

.................................................. ....................

and a matter of priority to me. I can't play what I want to play in any context without a bender (or 3). I waited almost twenty years, from seeing Bob Warford with Linda Ronstadt at Cal State Fullerton in 1974, to get an installed bender; the Glaser $400 b bender. It was well worth it then, and has been fully amortized at well less than $.01 per song since. Thanks to Joe, Brian, Bill and Music One so that I can do it.

[jmiles]

Rick, I've been playing double bender guitars since '83. 5/6 gigs a week, on bender guitar and pedal steel. Retired from the club scene in 2,000. Amortization is not really an issue. The initial cost is the issue. You could amortize any extravagant purchase given enough time. On one hand you have a fistful of parts, and a router template. On the other hand, you have more precision-machined parts than you could stuff into a bushel basket! All made from very expensive billet stock. Expertise, and experience, in putting both together is a given. If the bender parts were put on CAD, you could go to any machine shop and have them cranked out. You could get 25 complete sets in probably half a day. Probably around $50 or less per unit in parts. There are hardly any parts, comparatively, in a bender.
Another thing that gets me is the time factor. 9 months? 11 months? I hope they don't have your guitar for that length of time! I'm thinkin' that you are on a waiting list for that time, and only send your guitar in about a week ahead of the scheduled installation. Under pressure, I can assemble a D-10 steel in a long day. But we usually worked at a more serene pace, taking a day and a half to two days to complete a guitar. If we were busy, and had a backlog, or were waiting for parts from the machine shop or polisher, you might have to wait up to a month.
I can completely understand being a fan of people (C.White, D. Gatton, Jeff Beck, L. Green fan here), or products (total old Shobud geek am I!), but that doesn't mean that I should pay too much for a product of their vision, talent, or expertise. What is "too much?" Obviously what the market will bare. We bender guys are a pretty small niche market though, and that has a great effect on costs. I wonder if the units for Fender and Hipshot are machined one at a time??? I have no idea about that. But, and here's a big butt, there's no incentive to reduce any prices when guys are willing to wait a year, and pay the high price.
No disrespect meant towards anyone, just a business/manufacturer viewpoint,
Best,
JB

[jmiles]

Tim, I can appreciate your points, cuz we actually have many points in common. Small, niche market, etc.. My most important issue was in the comparison between pedal guitars, which I'm sure you must know quite a bit about, and bender guitars. My boss also spent years and years developing and perfecting his design. But ya can't charge a lot for that. Just the way it is.

"if they'd like to make 1 just for themselves (not for resale). If you can build it for less than $200 including parts and labor, please let me know how you did it."

I'm sure you're right. But that's not my point. If some builder had the confidence to put everything into CAD, and buy a batch of say, 25, or 50 units, imagine the time, labor, and money saved. But that's a fairly large investment in getting someone to do the CAD work, and buying and stocking that many units. The machining is not that expensive though. That whole process could result in one of two outcomes:
Greatly reduced cost to the end buyer, or
Greatly improved profits for the manufacturer.
If we weren't such a small market, the Asians probably would have already been flooding us with low cost benders.

[Tim Wallis]

Originally Posted by jmiles

If we weren't such a small market, the Asians probably would have already been flooding us with low cost benders.

My thoughts exactly.

I know most of the Steel Guitar builders. The amount of work and attention to detail in those guitars they put 'em in to them.... I don't see how they make any money given that market share.

I do what I do because I love what I do.... they probably do the same.

If I were only in it for the money.... I sure wouldn't be inventing products for musicians lol.

[jmiles]

"I do what I do because I love what I do.... they probably do the same."

Abdo-Lutely Tim! Having played pedal steel since '72, I jumped at the chance to work for a steel guitar company.

[BrianF]

Originally Posted by jmiles

the Asians probably would have already been flooding us with low cost benders.

Exactly...

[Rick Towne]

JB:

Thanks for the comments. I should clarify that my only really long wait was for (1) a Joe Glaser bender, which meant that, since I am not a regular pro client, the back of the line, and (2) a double bender, which means more work, and (3) it was the first lefty double bender.

All things considered, the M1W Parsons b bender was way overpriced, but the turnaround was only two weeks. with Bill's issues, the best choice today for a Parsons is Brian, and probably the best choice for a saddle bender is McVay.

[candh]

All good reading guys. As a niche amp builder I can relate to what you builders are saying. I build for the love of it....because really that's all there is.
I haven't decided on a bender yet but I will post when I do.

[Charlie McVay]

I've installed a couple lefty's and it's a little puzzling, upside down and backwards. It requires more thinking than I'm capable of.

Thanks Chet Johnson for all the kind words.......I will help any players out regardless of what kind of benders they use.

Rick, my bender is night and day to the Glaser even though they appear similar on the outside, but its all good regardless of choice.

I totally agree with Brian F and Tim Wallis. We do it for the love of it.

I wish I could make my bender with all my fixtures and jigs to install it for $300.00 including labor. I don't own a router, I use my milling machine.
If benders were so easy and cheap to build everybody would be building them.
There is only a hand full of bender makers out there and we all have to stick together.The bender market is such a small and grey area in the guitar market, 90% of the guitar players I've talked to over the years don't even know what a bender is.

Steel guitar is my main instrument and I used to build steel guitars years ago with old machines. I know a lot of the builders out there using CNC machines and they do it for the love of it. It's not all about the money, or else we would all be out of bussiness. Thats why I have a full time day job.

Charlie McVay

[Dave Evans]

Thanks Charlie for speaking out. I too build them for the love of it (and the challenge). I also have a day job and thank my customers for being so patient until I can get their Pull Strings finished. If I had to charge according to the amount of work necessary at a profitable price, the price would easily double. There's a lot to do and think about building benders, not to mention the responsibility of taking care not to damage the owners instrument. And there is the issue of each instrument being just a little differnt than the last. Even though CNC maching is incredible, quick and accurate, there are still issues with them doing every phase of construction. Some are quick to tell us how to build them, how easy it is, and the cheap prices we should charge, but I don't see them actually doing it! Theres a lot to be said about the mind set of the world being into "throw away stuff" and ignoring quality and pride in workmanship. I can't help but admire builders like yourself, Brian F, Tim, Gene, and others that stick to their beliefs and try to put out a good product for the sake of quality and not governed by the price. Please keep it up you owe it to yourselves!

[jmiles]

Brian,,,"It would be interesting to get a quote from a steelguitar builder to make a Tele bender. "

If only one was gonna be made, it would cost just as much. But if the order was for, say, 100? He'd go to his machine shop, find out how much for the CAD program, which wouldn't be that much for something this simple, and find out how much the shop was going to charge. They'd cost a lot less. But, as we're such a small market, that method is most likely unrealistic. Too bad for us! Unfortunately, benders are being made almost on a hobbyist level as far as the business and manufacturing are concerned. Butt again, tiny market..... It's too bad, because if they were less costly, more players would probably buy them.

Also, I'm not disparaging any of the bender builders! They're dedicated, and they provide us with what we need. But because of the market, none of them get to gear up to an efficient manufacturing model.

At Performance, if I need to build a changer, a far more complex unit than a bender, I got to the parts bins, get 10 scissors, 10 fingers, an axle, 2 pillow blocks and a handful of bronze shim washers. I take them to the bench, and in 15 to 20 minutes, I've put together the heart of a steel guitar. I wish that benders could be built that way, because that would result in savings for the buyer, and bigger profits for the builder.

Dale, if you were referring to my comments in your post, I think you missed my point! But perhaps I'm mistaken about your reference?

Best to all,
JB

[BrianF]

Parts can be machined to be identical on a mass produced basis...but every installation is still a custom, time consuming operation since all Tele body dimensions are not the same...Variations to the installation and adjustments are needed to be made on each and every one of them.

[asatfan]

Thank goodness, some things just don't lend themselves to "high" production. From a player's point of view, I wanted a bender that would be installed in my favorite guitar. Why? Because it's been my main guitar for 20 years and all of the others I've owned, just don't feel/play the same. Therefore, I was more than happy to pay to have a really nice, high quality, strap activated bender put in my guitar. That's why I sent it out to Dave Evans for a Pull String. I definitely wouldn't take my guitar to just any "Tom, Dick, or Harry", to have a mass produced bender thrown in. I could have gone out and purchased a "production" made guitar with a bender in it, but that's not what I wanted. My guitar, sooner or later (hopefully later) will go to one of my sons (that's a good reason to have a bender installed in another guitar...for my other son!) and hopefully, eventually to his son or daughter. What Dave, Brian, Tim, Gene, Charlie, Joe, and others are doing is supplying a product that is custom made and installed into the customer's pride and joy, so to speak. We're more than willing to pay those folks for the product and the service, and the care to our intruments during the process. And frankly, I'm happy that there is not really a large market (Hipshot aside) for benders!

[jmiles]

Asatfan, I again think you're missing the point. Everything would still be Eggs Ackley the same. It's just that the bender parts would already have been made, and in parts bins ready to be assembled. No more going to the mill, the lathe, the drill press, each time an order comes in, and making the benders one at a time. The savings in time and money would be substantial. It would still be a "custom" installation into your guitar. Just the time factor, which equals money in the end cost, would be so much better. And no more 9/11 month waiting for your guitar to be done either.

" I definitely wouldn't take my guitar to just any "Tom, Dick, or Harry", to have a mass produced bender thrown in."

Way off the mark. Not what I'm suggesting at all. I think you might want to read my posts again. I have shown no disrespect for anyone, and I have acknowledged that, due to the tiny market, what I was talking about is unlikely to happen.

[asatfan]

J,

I really don't think I missed your point, and I don't think you were disrespecting anyone.

I have a background in manufacturing and understand full well about production, cnc, cost per piece, etc., etc.. And, I do think that "bender production" is already happening, if I'm not mistaken, as one can purchase the "parts" for a bender, from a catalog, or an "assembly" from Hipshot. As far as time, I definitely did not wait 9 months or more to get my guitar back! It's like anything else that one wants "custom" made; whether it's golf clubs (not me), guns (not me), motorcycles (I wish), you expect to pay for function, beauty, and durability. I'm generally a frugal person, but there are exceptions that I don't mind paying for and waiting for. My apologies to the O.P., as this thread has turned into something else. Sorry!

[Rick Towne]

"Charlie:

Rick, my bender is night and day to the Glaser even though they appear similar on the outside, but its all good regardless of choice."

Thanks, Charlie. It looks like yours in another one that I need to investigate. Like Asatfan, I've got no golf, guns, motorcycles, or other hobbies to distract me from this pursuit.

[Silverface]

Brian, I respectfully disagree. You're payin' almost a grand for a double bender, and you may have another grand in the guitar that you're supplying. A new D-10 Pro level pedal steel guitar is $4,000. 8 pedals, 5 knee levers.

You're talking about apples and oranges. The manufacturing of one has nothing to do with the other.

The thing you're missing....and I'm surprised if you've ben playing benders as long as you say...is that *good* bender installations (as opposed to 3/4 of the ones I've seen/played) require custom work. No two Teles are laike, and subtle...but necessary....and adjustments need to be made to have a bender of ANY kind work properly. Yes, you can simply rout the back of a guitar and plop in a Parsons-Green....but you won't have the same thing as Evans provides, where he has to custom-make or modify several parts to precisely fit individual guitars. I know Brian has encountered differences as well, and so has Parsons.

Building a steel from scratch is like building an erector set; you have all the parts pre-made to a specific spec and bolt them together. Ta-da! I'm not discounting it at all (I play steel as well) but it's not the same as a bender, where a "stock" routing template can get you a big hole in the back of a guitar - in the wrong place. Lay a PW template on an 80's Tele or some non-Fenders and things don't match up all the time.

The PG is the only "rout and install" bender available as a kit that I'm aware of. Why? One reason is that there IS a limited market - as with steels there are not thousands of players looking for them. The other is a quality issue - you simply cannot make a drop-in "kit" that plays like an Evans, GOOD PW installation or a Glaser (if you prefer that style). If you play "Tele with a bender" sometimes a PG is a handy "effect". But if you play "B-Bender" asa primary instrument it isn't an "effect" - it's a completely different instrument and the bender is "organic" - it exists in a symbiotic relationship with the guitar and player. That's why some players can't stand PG's (I'm one) - they are "on size fits all"....and they don't fit me. IMO they all have a "hitch" in the throw, where the tension changes a small amount (hardly noticeable to most players, but awful to me, and really detrimental to slow, smooth bends); the spring has no adjustment; they kick the weight up on the guitar; and last, the whole assembly completely changes the tone of the guitar. Again, these are things I notice - but I've ben playing benders 35+ years.

I doubt you'll ever see Chinese knock-offs as it's just not worth it. But regardless, if there WERE any knock-off benders they only thing they could conceivably copy is on the low end of the bender food chain. You won't see an import Evans - half the parts wouldn't exist because they have to be custom made. Are you going to send your guitar to China or Indonesia for an installation?

The comparisons with steel just don't wash, and the cost of a GOOD bender is based on the cost of top-quality raw materials, precision machining, and labor.

Fo those who play bender as an instrument, it's worth every penny. The ones who don't get it see a bender as they would a chorus or delay pedal - an effect.

[ramseybella]

My friend built this one from scratch for me a few years ago, smooth action and bomb proof.

[jmiles]

Jim,
I hope you read my posts after the one you quoted. As far as "apples and oranges," I was comparing the complexity, and number of parts required to build a pedal guitar with the same for a bender guitar. Nothing else. My point being that, if a builder didn't have to spend time machining every part, every time, enormous savings could be had by all. If a part had to be custom-made, because the guitar was a Suhr and not a Fender, that would certainly cost more. But there's no reason, except for the tiny market that we are, that most of the bender parts would have to be made one-at-a-time. I don't want to put words into Tim's mouth, but he and I seemed to be in agreement on some of these points;

"If 50% of guitar players used Benders, the price for a bender would be probably
be about 75% less than what they are now. Volume Volume Volume."

I also made that same point;

"They'd cost a lot less. But, as we're such a small market, that method is most likely unrealistic. Too bad for us! Unfortunately, benders are being made almost on a hobbyist level as far as the business and manufacturing are concerned. Butt again, tiny market..... It's too bad, because if they were less costly, more players would probably buy them."

Benders aren't being made in an efficient way. But because the demand is so small,,,,, that's the way it will stay. None of my posts were about the installation of benders, only about the parts, and the way they're produced. Putting together a steel guitar is certainly not like putting together Legos. Except, sort of, for the brilliantly designed GFI. I believe you have one. Gene Fields did a wonderful job designing a good guitar, which is easy to assemble. But I'd bet his up-front costs were pretty high. Or take Ed Fulawka, who machines all his parts one at a time. Ed builds a few guitars a month. GFI? Well, lots, because Gene was willing to put up the bread to establish an efficient business model. But, again,,, we're a tiny market.

"and I'm surprised if you've ben (sic) playing benders as long as you say..."

Jim, I'm rather surprised at the tone of that. We've had such cordial communications in the past.
Best,
jb181

[Rick Towne]

I'm with Jim on two points:

1. "For those who play bender as an instrument, it's worth every penny."

It is for me, particularly as most of my playing is live, with careful musicians, but not in a typical country context. I've used benders in bands or groups with oboists, pennywhistlers, cellists, violinists, steelers, grand pianos, horns and so on. Many of these players are actually fussy about matters such as intonation!

2. "*[G]ood* bender installations (as opposed to 3/4 of the ones I've seen/played) require custom work. No two Teles are like, and subtle...but necessary....and adjustments need to be made to have a bender of ANY kind work properly."

Bill Bores did modification work on my Glaser double (on a 3 bolt G&L) to retrofit a six saddle G&L ashtray bridge and get rid of the tone-killing Gotoh. Brian Friend has done a long throw modification on my Music One Parsons-White installed in a Zion '50. Brent at Renson Guitar has done tweaks on my Bores-installed Parsons-White on a 3-bolt G&L. All of the guitars require periodic tweaks and adjustments.

[Silverface]

Regarding custom installation, I'm working now on a PW clone owned by a friend - a local tech copied the parts *exactly* of a PW, and although he made a few changes in the stop method and parts type (brass) the length of the "guts" are the same.

It also doesn't work worth a darn. It rubs in a couple of places and the throw is not even.I've changed the setting of the bellcrank, added Delrin washers to move things to better positions, opened up the strap peg hole from "stock" - now it's almost working - I just need to make a spring change.

But this is an example of what would happen if someone took a "kit" and just slapped it into a Tele. As mentioned before, one size just doesn't fit all.

jmiles - that phrase wasn't meant at all the way you took it; sorry if it came across the wrong way! But I still think even bringing up a comparison of steel vs bender is not really a valid argument. They are SO different both in market type and construction/design you could compare custom trem units to benders and make the same kind of comparison.

[JR1960]

Take a look at B & W Benders inventory site I was just there a few minutes ago he has a left handed tele with b bender installed no routing necessary. Can install his bender in your guitar.

http://www.bnwbenders.com/inventory.html