Hipshot string pull

[Flat Rat]

I installed my Hipshot B-Bender w/E-A-E drops over the weekend and ran into a few snags.
1. After installing the Hipshot, I noticed that the string pull on the top E and A were off. I am using a Gotoh modern style 6 saddle Tele bridge.

2. Also, once set up, and I mean "up" (meaning I had to crank my saddles all the way up to keep the strings from falling off) I had a heck of a time getting the strings to stay in place. So I grooved the bridge and the saddles. It helped a bunch but did not solve the problem.

3. My last effort was to install a custom string retainer across all of the strings between the Hipshot and the bridge and that seemed to do the trick.

It's pretty obvious I will have to shim the neck to get the action back down but is there a way to adjust the Hipshot so the string pull is straight?
~Billy
BTW, I have recorded with it already and really like it alot, just not crazy about the pull and funky string retainer.

[bender-freak]

for what it's worth, i have done lotsa installs of hipshot benders on the "modern" bridge set-ups...it will work a lot better for you if you get an American Standard bridge with the "off-set" adjustment/intonation screws on the saddles..this will allow you to make a much deeper notch for string travel for the "bent" strings...as far as having the string pull straight, what i have done on ones that were just a little "off" is use very thin nylon washers between the hipshot plate and the body of the guitar...i am talking of placing the washers on the "securing" screws on either side of the strap button; assuming you are using the other two screws to stabilize the unit, a good idea in my opinion...it doesn't take much washer thickness to shim one side or the other to get the "travel" straight ....but really, the main problem i see with your install is the type of saddles and bridge plate you are using...again, an American Standard plate and offset saddles notched deeper will solve all your problems....you should need NO neck shimming after that...good luck....check a post of mine from several weeks back and you will find a pic of an install i did on a P/G of mine which i added an A bender to app. 10 years ago...or closely check out any bridge and saddles on a Parson Greene B bender to see what i am speaking of...again, good luck.....

[lmcgillet]

bender-freak is right.

The modern six-saddle bridge is good for P/G or P/W benders, if the bent string saddle is open at the bender end, as in the Standard Nashville B-Bender. See photo - counting from the bottom: Standard modern saddle, factory made bent-string saddle (open), home-customized half-open saddle for the same experiment you did:



Larger pic:
[img=http://img217.imagevenue.com/loc194/th_60540_Saddles_122_194lo.jpg]

The pressure of the string on the saddle is fine for the built-in P/G, but not for the Hipshot. It killed the sound of my g-string, so I removed it again.

Mysteriously the same experiment was successful on another guitar, equipped with a vintage three brass-saddles bridge. I had to make a notch into the before unnotched saddle, otherwise the string traveled when I finger-bent it.

Now for the best part: Just for experiment I built in a cheapo no-name bridge with three pre-notched chromed steel saddles the next time I was about to change strings, and that improved the already alright sound of that guitar by at least 100 percent. In my case the cheapest and most simple solution was the best:

Great working ashtray construction with simple saddles (Shelton B-bender plus HipShot G- and D-bender)


I just ordered another 10 bucks three-saddle-bridge to finally equip the above shown Nashville with the multi-bender.

BTW: Will Ray sez it's better to drill holes ***very*** close to the top edge of the bridges end than make notches there, as this generates a little more pressure on the saddle without generating too much friction (the same what your retainer does). I haven't tried that yet, as you also see on the photo, but will try it when my new bridge arrives. Crucial is to use a little bit of vaseline or Big Bend's Nut Sauce on all possibly friction-causing contact points of the string (bridge holes - if there are any, retainer - if there is any, saddle, nut, tree).

Greetings and good luck with optimizing your bender!
Luther

Edit: BTW if it's alright with you to use heavier strings, use at least 10s, better 11s. Best 12s or 13s. Doing all this I think you can lower the action again without shimming the neck.

[Flat Rat]

BTW: Will Ray sez it's better to drill holes ***very*** close to the top edge of the bridges end than make notches there,
Yeah, I was going to do that but with the Gotoh, there is no edge margin. I might get an ashtray and see if that helps the tension. I think I will pick up some offset saddles too, that is a great idea!

Edit: BTW if it's alright with you to use heavier strings, use at least 10s, better 11s. Best 12s or 13s. Doing all this I don't think you will have to shim the neck.[/quote]

I use 10's already, but it never hurts the tone to go up a size, just hurts the fingers.

[lmcgillet]

Originally Posted by Flat Rat

Yeah, I was going to do that but with the Gotoh, there is no edge margin.

Yes, you are right. I had the ashtray in mind.

Greetings -
Luther

[helle_man]

.

These are the toughest bridges to put benders on. IMCGILLET has the right idea if you must use a 6 way bridge. But personally speaking, I prefer the old original ashtray 3-way bridges. They seem to have more tone and it's easy to just drill a small hole behind the B string on the ashtray like FLAT RAT says.

Is the problem on the E & A strings the spacing of the E & A detuners on the Hipshot?

For my 2 cents worth, I see pitch problems on the horizon with the added "stop tailpiece" type bar to keep the Hipshot strings held down.

I've been trying for years for Dave Borisoff at Hipshot to design a 6-in-line set of tuners which will allow a player to detune any of the 6 strings from the tuner end instead of from the bridge/Hipshot end. Sure would solve a lot of problems.

.

[telesavant]

Even better, for the type of center screw/saddle, bridge pictured previously in this thread .....drill/tap saddle for a 10-32, 3/4" brass screw, drill said screw right down the center with a 3/32" drill, open up bridge to accept new, 10-32 screw, and you're done. As is apparent from my photo, this will work with most any bender, but works especially well with the hipshot, which has less tension over the saddle than most. The brass screw is self lubricating, and provides the perfect tension. Intonate with a string through the body, and then string 'er up through the saddle screw. Vintage style bridges with the 3 barrel saddle setup, usually, are a much easier install.

[lmcgillet]

!!!

Extraordinary good idea, Telesavant! Even if a bit challenging for a craftsmanship idiot like me with a left foot instead of a right hand ;)

Will try that myself though someday. Thank you!

Greetings -
Luther

[telesavant]

Originally Posted by lmcgillet

!!!

Extraordinary good idea, Telesavant! Even if a bit challenging for a craftsmanship idiot like me with a left foot instead of a right hand ;)

Will try that myself though someday. Thank you!

Greetings -
Luther

Thanks, lmcgillet!! It's very easy really...the saddles are soft, and drill, and tap well.....make sure you drill them straight though,....the hole through the screw is another story....when, and if you're ready, send the parts, and I'll do them for you N/C, as I'd hate to see you accidentally ball up one of your saddles.
Pauly

[lmcgillet]

Thank you for your kind offer! :)

Will do some practicing on some worthless metal pieces before turning over to the real thing. Have already been thinking about a workbench these days. One more reason to finally go and get one.

Greetings -
Luther

[Flat Rat]

[quote=helle_man;1244572].

Is the problem on the E & A strings the spacing of the E & A detuners on the Hipshot?

Yes, alsogetting the strings to stay on the saddle. I am going to go pick up an ashtray today. Who knows, it might cure the spacing issue too! Thanks everybody for the excellent ideas!
~Billy

[lmcgillet]

Tell us about your success when you are done!

Greetings -
Luther

[Flat Rat]

I certainly will. I'm sure the installation will be a lot easier time.

[jmiles]

I do not like filing notches in the back-end of the bridge-plate. I prefer a Tele rear-loading, three saddle style bridge. I use small teflon tubes that I got at the bike shop. They're the liner for bike brake cables. I drill out the string retainer holes so that the brake cable liner is a press fit. This method puts about the same down force on all the strings across the saddles. I use a B/G bender with three toggles. I've never had any problems using this method.
This method also works well on the new Dano bridges, which are 6 saddle units.

[jmiles]

As an added note, I bought my Hipshot the day after they were first reviewed in Guitar Player magazine. Sheesh! How many decades ago was that? Back then, the teflon tubes came with the Hipshot. Don't know if that's still the case. I also screw my Hipshot down to the top of my guitar to eliminate any unwanted flexing/movement. You've alredy screwed somethin' down, so I suggest you screw down the Hipshot too.

[Flat Rat]

Originally Posted by jmiles

As an added note, I bought my Hipshot the day after they were first reviewed in Guitar Player magazine. Sheesh! How many decades ago was that? Back then, the teflon tubes came with the Hipshot. Don't know if that's still the case. I also screw my Hipshot down to the top of my guitar to eliminate any unwanted flexing/movement. You've alredy screwed somethin' down, so I suggest you screw down the Hipshot too.

I got mine off Crig's list from a guy who bought back in the "olden days" and did not come with the 2 holes drilled on each side of the strap button. I plan on adding those and going through the top as well (that's a great idea) since I noticed my G pulls a little bit when I bend. I did get the tubing that actually came with the bridge but it just don't look like the E&A will fit through it. Guess I will find out tonight. I can't wait to take that goofy retainer off and stick the ashtray on there. I am sure it will be 100% better. Geez, only 3 sets of strings one bridge and a bunch awesome ideas later and I will be in good shape.
Excellent ideas, thanks jmiles!

[lmcgillet]

telesavant, I am already dreaming of the drilling through the center of a screw... Wifey can't follow the things I talk about sleeping :::)))

Let me guess: I have to screw it into a hard wooden block to have that block fixed on the workbench while I drill the hole; only method I can think of without damaging the screw?!?

Flat Rat: Good luck again - I am convinced the ashtray will satisfy you!

Greetings -
Luther

[telesavant]

Originally Posted by lmcgillet

telesavant, I am already dreaming of the drilling through the center of a screw... Wifey can't follow the things I talk about sleeping :::)))

Let me guess: I have to screw it into a hard wooden block to have that block fixed on the workbench while I drill the hole; only method I can think of without damaging the screw?!?

Flat Rat: Good luck again - I am convinced the ashtray will satisfy you!

Greetings -
Luther

Hello Luther!! Use a good machinists vice w/a "V" groove (this won't damage the screw), insert screw flush with the top of vice (Phillips head, 10-32, will self center a 3/32 drill), use brass!! Get a drill press, and the drill press table must be perfectly square. Now get a $#!tload of screws.....you'll need 'em. I do this on a machinists lathe, but a drill press will work....go slow, and use some type of cutting oil....WD-40 works good on brass.

If you plan on using a hand drill.........you better let me do it!!!!...Have fun!!

[lmcgillet]

Originally Posted by telesavant

If you plan on using a hand drill.........you better let me do it!!!!...Have fun!!

Hi Telesavant!

Thank you for the good advice! And for your kind offer, again! And no, I am for sure **not** planning to try this with a hand drill! The words "hand drill" could quickly get an unintended meaning, btw...

Another point I forgot in my enthusiasm: I haven't got yet a bridge with screws that line up with the string, so I can take time with trying this myself.

But your method is the kind of brillant idea that you hear of once, and they never leave your mind again. As guitar benders, for example.

Many Greetings -
Luther

[telesavant]

Originally Posted by lmcgillet

Hi Telesavant!

Thank you for the good advice! And for your kind offer, again! And no, I am for sure **not** planning to try this with a hand drill! The words "hand drill" could quickly get an unintended meaning, btw...

Another point I forgot in my enthusiasm: I haven't got yet a bridge with screws that line up with the string, so I can take time with trying this myself.

But your method is the kind of brillant idea that you hear of once, and they never leave your mind again. As guitar benders, for example.

Many Greetings -
Luther

No problem lmcgillet; Speaking of benders, I also make those, and my tailpiece can be used, or they will retrofit on any Hipshot, for a strap actuated pull, in addition to the others the Hipshot provides.

[lmcgillet]

Cool item! I saw one similar bender at eBay a few weeks ago, but I wasn't interested as the covering plate was missing.

Is the throw adjustable (not talking about the tuning, but about the possibility to alter between short-, middle-, long-throwing strap lever)?

Sorry, Flat Rat, for hijacking your thread! ;)

Greetings -
Luther

[telesavant]

Originally Posted by lmcgillet

Cool item! I saw one similar bender at eBay a few weeks ago, but I wasn't interested as the covering plate was missing.

Is the throw adjustable (not talking about the tuning, but about the possibility to alter between short-, middle-, long-throwing strap lever)?

Sorry, Flat Rat, for hijacking your thread! ;)

Greetings -
Luther

I also apoligize to Flat Rat for hijacking, but hope we provided him with some good info. Throw....no problem as to length...long or short. I also saw the "hacked-up" ebay offering...that left here as a perfectly good, double D,B bender. The seller was kind enough to remove my name from the auction, as it isn't representative of my work.

[Flat Rat]

Originally Posted by telesavant

I also apoligize to Flat Rat for hijacking, but hope we provided him with some good info.

I'm not worried at all about that, and yes you are right about the awesome info. BTW-I went to my favorite ex place of employment (Warmoth) to get an ashtray and wouldn't ya know it, the bridge I bought had holes drilled in the back already! I guess it was so you can string it either way. So I stuck that sucker on my axe........NO PROBLEMS! Not bad for a mear $21.00!

http://www.warmoth.com/hardware/brid...age_tele_fixed

Once again, you all have been very helpful, thanks soooo much!
~Billy

[lmcgillet]

Originally Posted by Flat Rat

[...] the bridge I bought had holes drilled in the back already! I guess it was so you can string it either way. So I stuck that sucker on my axe........NO PROBLEMS!
[...]
Once again, you all have been very helpful, thanks soooo much!
~Billy

You are very welcome! Congrats to your success!

I had friction problems with the bender-bent strings drawn through bridge holes which were located close to the guitar body. If it works well in your case, the better, as the 'twang' of the string's sound is more powerful this way. If you ever encounter friction detuning though, it's the easiest thing to drill new holes close to the top edge of the ashtray (and trade some 'twang' for perfect tuning, but still sounds great).

Best wishes and Greetings -
Luther