Drum recording, thoughts?

I'm working on some original material and I've never recorded acoustic drums myself before. This weekend I mic'd the kit up with my drummer and took my first shot at it.

http://www.moppingjanet.com/recordings/DrumTest.wma

Any thoughts, tips, suggestions, criticisms?

My initial reaction was, "Wow! It sounds great!" Everything is very clear and the drums are well-tuned and well-played. On furhter examination, I would say that the bass drum is to high in the mix and, strangely, too musical. Also there's a little too much reverb overall. But one really can't just those things properly when the other instruments aren't there. Maybe that's just the right amount of reverb and the bass drum works great as is.

One other thing -- and I could be wrong about this -- is that there didn't seem to be much stereo separatoin on anything but the crashes.

What is your mic setup? What kind of room?

... one really can't adjust (drums) properly when the other instruments aren't there. Maybe that's just the right amount of reverb and the bass drum works great as is.

+1 Great start.

Nice snare tone. Lots of thwack there- which you could bring out with some judicious compression and a 2k boost.

I'm actually not loving the kick tonality- it is a little boxy to me- but it depends on what you are going for.
Try cutting around 400hz with a Q of around 1.5 by about 2db and see if you prefer it.

One of the toms is distorting- could be too close to a mic- or might just be a tom tuning issue.

On the whole, great job.
I'd be curious as to your signal chain, mic's used and the room acoustic if you care to comment.

The recording process was pretty straightforward I think. I busted out a bunch of mics and stands and hoped for the best :)

Mics:

Kick - AKG D112
Tom 1,2,3 - EV N/D 308 (one each)
Snare - Sennheiser MD504
Hi-hat - SM57
Overheads - a pair of CAD ICM417The overheads went into a Trident S20 preamp. Everything went into Sonar 7 via a Presonus FirePOD.

Once recorded, I used the Para-Q to cut the lows on the overheads and hi-hat. The snare sounded like crap so I used a Para-Q to dial out a couple really annoying rings. I put heavy gates on the kick and toms to reduce bleeding.

The reverb is the Lexicon that came with the Producer Edition set to Room - I just tweaked one of the presets - no reverb on the kick drum.

What I'm not happy with:

the cymbals are a bit harsh to my ears - I went out and got a pair of Rode NT5's for the next session
the hi-hat is lacking the crispness/sizzle I like - an SM57 isn't going to deliver that so I grabbed a Shure KSM-109 condenser when I grabbed the NT5's
the kick drum is lacking the attack punch I like - after we were wrapped for the day I noticed that the kick drum mic had gotten knocked out of position - it was a good 8" away from the front of the bass drum. Putting it inside the kick drum properly should fix that next time - D'oh!
the snare sounds like butt - part of it is the drum itself isn't dialed in properly, we'll see after it's tweaked. I'm thinking of micing the bottom head as wellHere are some pictures of the jam/recording room:

http://www.hackolutions.com/gear/jamroom.htm

Ah okie doke... that explains why I am not into the kick.
The D112.
Try blending the D112 with an LDC- but throw one of them out of phase- usually the LDC. It will make everything sound great.

The overheads - trust me, that is the converters.
I experience that toppy harshness on my Digi 96IO.
I have used Digi192's and they don't have that harshness.

It comes down to $$$- you have to spend them for OH's to sound decent.
Can you return the NT5s?
If you can, do that and go and get a pair of Josephson C42's.
They are a totally pro solution- you will get as close to the sound you want without upgrading your converters.

On the hats try a Beyer M201- much nicer than the 57.
They are cheap- I bought mine used for $100 a piece. Great on guitar too.

Just my 2c.

The recording process was pretty straightforward I think. I busted out a bunch of mics and stands and hoped for the best :)

Mics:

Kick - AKG D112
Tom 1,2,3 - EV N/D 308 (one each)
Snare - Sennheiser MD504
Hi-hat - SM57
Overheads - a pair of CAD ICM417The overheads went into a Trident S20 preamp. Everything went into Sonar 7 via a Presonus FirePOD.

Once recorded, I used the Para-Q to cut the lows on the overheads and hi-hat. The snare sounded like crap so I used a Para-Q to dial out a couple really annoying rings. I put heavy gates on the kick and toms to reduce bleeding.

The reverb is the Lexicon that came with the Producer Edition set to Room - I just tweaked one of the presets - no reverb on the kick drum.

What I'm not happy with:

the cymbals are a bit harsh to my ears - I went out and got a pair of Rode NT5's for the next session
the hi-hat is lacking the crispness/sizzle I like - an SM57 isn't going to deliver that so I grabbed a Shure KSM-109 condenser when I grabbed the NT5's
the kick drum is lacking the attack punch I like - after we were wrapped for the day I noticed that the kick drum mic had gotten knocked out of position - it was a good 8" away from the front of the bass drum. Putting it inside the kick drum properly should fix that next time - D'oh!
the snare sounds like butt - part of it is the drum itself isn't dialed in properly, we'll see after it's tweaked. I'm thinking of micing the bottom head as wellHere are some pictures of the jam/recording room:

http://www.hackolutions.com/gear/jamroom.htm

Ah okie doke... that explains why I am not into the kick.
The D112.
Try blending the D112 with an LDC- but throw one of them out of phase- usually the LDC. It will make everything sound great.

I think a bigger part of the problem with the kick is as I mentioned that the kick mic was about 8" away from the front of the bass drum during the recording. Which LDC do you recommend?

The overheads - trust me, that is the converters.
I experience that toppy harshness on my Digi 96IO.
I have used Digi192's and they don't have that harshness.

It comes down to $$$- you have to spend them for OH's to sound decent.
Can you return the NT5s?
If you can, do that and go and get a pair of Josephson C42's.
They are a totally pro solution- you will get as close to the sound you want without upgrading your converters.

Returning the NT5s is no problem. But the mics you are suggesting are 3x the cost. I'm going to need more than it's "a totally pro solution" to go on. How is the C42 able to overcome the converters? Please compare/contrast the NT5 and the C42.

On the hats try a Beyer M201- much nicer than the 57.
They are cheap- I bought mine used for $100 a piece. Great on guitar too.


I will look into those. So far I've not seen any used ones for less than $185. You are the first person to suggest a dynamic mic over a condenser for the hi-hats though.

I think a bigger part of the problem with the kick is as I mentioned that the kick mic was about 8" away from the front of the bass drum during the recording. Which LDC do you recommend?

Anything I've written below is just *my experience*- I do a lot of drum tracking but there are many ways to skin this particular cat.
Everyone has their own way of doing it- I have spent a lot of the last 5 years moving away from 2" and just doing direct to digital drums.
I can provide a couple of recordings if you want and then decide for yourself. PM me- I can't place the links on the website for copyright reasons but I can email you snippets of the songs.

I do usually stick the D112 in the drum rather than outside it but it isn't a huge deal- the SPL of a kick drum is huge, you will pick up a lot of signal provided it is dead on.

LDC's:

U87, U47fet or 147 in the high end.
KSM32 in the mid range.
Nothing in the low end that I have tried does it for me.


Returning the NT5s is no problem. But the mics you are suggesting are 3x the cost. I'm going to need more than it's "a totally pro solution" to go on. How is the C42 able to overcome the converters? Please compare/contrast the NT5 and the C42.


Of course- I am not suggesting you go buy it on my word alone.

The mic/converter question is difficult to answer via email but I will give it a shot.
The C42 has a very smooth top end that I don't hear in the NT5.
If you know the Neumann KM84 at all, the C42 is based on that design (kinda).
The NT5 is rather more splashy.

IMHO cheaper converters (anything under Digi192/Apoggee/Prism/Mytek) tend to have the same splashy top end.
Splashy mic and splashy converters means an unimpressive OH recording that sounds a bit fake or just bad.

Better converters and high quality OH mics equals a good OH recording that sounds convincing, authentic and doesn't stick out of the recording as something that needs to be fixed.

Not the most scientific explanation I know- just some observations from recording drums for the last 20 years or so.

I didn't know the NT5 was that much cheaper (I am guessing in the US).
Here in the UK I can get the NT5 for £230 where the C42 pair is closer to £460 for the pair (albeit imported from the US, I don't know anywhere in the UK to get them).

I will look into those. So far I've not seen any used ones for less than $185. You are the first person to suggest a dynamic mic over a condenser for the hi-hats though.


It is a question of which condenser and which dynamic.
FWIW the Josephson is an excellent hat mic.
If I am going for a hi-fi sounds I pair the C42 on hats with AKG 414's as overheads in M/S pattern.
I have to admit though that the hihat mic is often left out completely. I set one up out of habit but if the room is good enough, my OH mic placement is good and the drummer has control then it is pretty much unnecessary and indeed can call phase problems.

Using a hypercardioid dynamic (like the M201) can be effective if you are trying to keep the spill out.
I use the M201 both as a snare mic and a hithat mic (not at the same time)
The tight polar pattern keeps the hats out of the snare and vice versa (when placed properly).

Try dropping the hihat mic completely (and kicking the OH up a bit in the middle of the mix- you might be surprised to hear how much the top end comes together. It isn't a fixed rule- tracking drums never has fixed rules imho. :-)

Mic substitution often works- when you are having trouble- I routinely use an RE20 on Kick or Snare. M201 on Hats or Snare. U47 on Kick or Mono OH (which gets smashed with a Distressor). It is sometimes the best part of what can be a bit of a thankless job.

Hope this helps.