Twin, Pro Reverb, or Princeton?

I'm looking into buying a nice little "Swiss Army" amp to cover all my needs. I play "rootsy" stuff but I'd describe not only raw Blues, and old Country as roots music but also Garage Rock(old and new) and early Punk Rock in much the same way. And to round things out I like to do zany, experimental stuff as well.

I play gigs at small clubs and usually mic my amp, and I want an amp that can play super-clean but breaks up and get's mean when cranked. The Twin is heavy, expensive and too loud in most cases so I'm leaning toward the Princeton Reverb but now the Pro Reverb has me interested.

I'm willing to entertain suggetions for Non-Fender amps but for now it'll have to be a Fender Tube Amp of some kind. Somewhere below $ 700 would be nice too!

First off, I'm not much of a player and I only play around the house, but...

I have a Princeton Reverb and a later 70's, 70-watt Pro Reverb. The Pro can be very loud. You'd have to use pedals unless the club you are playing is very, very large. The Princeton would have to be miked I'd think any time you wanted clean, unless the club you were playing were very, very small--like a coffee shop.

One other option you might consider if you can try it is a Super Champ. Mine is louder than my Princeton but quieter than my Pro. It's super portable, too. But I'd suggest upgrading the speaker, I think it's the weak link. Another option would be a Deluxe Reverb. You could crank that in a club or mike it for clean.

Fender's line can be simplified based on increasing power

Champ - 5 watts from one 6V6 single-ended
Princeton Reverb - 12 watts from two 6V6s in push-pull
Deluxe Reverb or Vibroverb - 32 watts from two 6L6s in push-pull
Vibrolux Reverb - 40 watts from two 6L6s in push-pull
Twin Reverb - 85 watts from four 6L6s in push-pull

Many consider the Deluxe Reverb to be the workhorse for clubs, although the Princeton Reverb is favored as being lighter and easier to carry.

Many consider Twins to be obsolete because of their power, size and weight, however, this means that you can get a fantastic bargain on a used one, if you know what to look for.

I agree the pro can be too loud and too clean. I would go with the Princeton.

Out of the amps mentioned so far, I agree with Bill that the Super Champ will fill the bill you are shooting for. The OEM speaker is useless, imo. IF you replace that with a good Alnico and learn to turn the knobs, you can do what you want with one.

I'd say that if you're playing rock & punk in clubs, a Princeton would sound too small - not that it wouldn't work, but with 1-10" and 12 watts you'd have to be making an aesthetic decision to be playing with a smaller sounding amp i.e. I'd go for the Pro, or ideally, a Vibrolux. If you're thinking small, I'd probably not go smaller than a Deluxe. The advantage of the Pro over the other mid-size Fenders is price, probably due to the bulk.

Thanks for all the suggestions! I'm currently playing Americana/Texas Music/Honky-tonk stuff with a band that doesn't even have a drummer but I'd like something that could work with a drummer and louder stuff.

I love the idea of the cranked little amp pushing the tubes to distort instead of using pedals but most of the guys around here ( even the ones that aren't Gibson/Marshall "size kings") have larger cabinets, even some that aren't combos so I'm feeling a little inferior.

Lot's to consider.

Depends on what you really want. As you say the Twin is heavy and loud. The Pro is slightly lighter, not just so loud, but every bit as clean. I used a Pro for many years, in some big venues, and it just stays clean, way up.

I've no experience of a Princeton, but if you want something you can really drive, get something smaller than a Pro.

I don't know where this thought came from, but I think you'd be happier with a Vox, Matchless or Bad Cat amp. They'll give you some clean, but with a little more drive on tap. Go play every amp you can get you hands on and take you're time. You'll know it when you hear it.

I love the idea of the cranked little amp pushing the tubes to distort instead of using pedals but most of the guys around here ( even the ones that aren't Gibson/Marshall "size kings") have larger cabinets, even some that aren't combos so I'm feeling a little inferior.


I've played with a particular drummer for years, mostly using my little 15 watt Trace-Elliot Velocette with a 10" speaker. A while back, he commented to me that he simply couldn't understand why so many other guitarists he plays with use really big amps, especially stacks! He said my tone was always great, and my volume was always just right... other guitarists were too loud, and with dull tone because they don't push their big amps hard enough.

To chime in with others here, I think a Deluxe would be PERFECT for you - a silverface Deluxe Reverb should fit your budget, or a new reissue. If you want a dirtier tone, look for a modern Tweed Deluxe clone... no reverb, but killer tone. Just-starting clone makers often have them in your price range, or maybe a used one from an established maker.

For touchstones, Richard Thompson has a classic Deluxe Reverb tone, and Neil Young has a classic Tweed Deluxe tone.

Get a SFDR.

I've never used a Pro, but 70 watts is a lot. A Twin is A LOT of amp. I've used Twins, Deluxes and a nice SF Princeton at length for an "everything" sound (country, blues, punk, etc.). I would definitely consider a Deluxe. As mentioned, a SF one would be a very good choice IMHO.

An early 40-watt Pro REverb is a cool amp. Wit the tube rectifier and the small output transformer, it does things that a TR or the ultrarlinear 70-watt Pro REverb will never do....it compresses more and sings more readily. IT is more in the vein of a DR. The two of them will do the BF REverb amp clean like a TR but when pushed they go into distortion and compression sooner and more smoothly.
The 40 watt Pro REverb can still be a handful of volume for a small club. A Deluxe REverb is the next step down.

First--a Deluxe Reverb is 22W from two 6V6, not 32W and two 6L6.

Now, if you always mic your amp, and want a bit of drive I think the Pro Reverb and Twin Reverb are probably too much amp.

I think you'd be happier with a Deluxe Reverb or Princeton Reverb. Plenty of guts for gigging. they may not always fill every room, but you are reinforcing it through the PA. You will get reasonable stage volume and perfect tone.

SF Princeton Reverbs are around, but the prices are rising. SF Deluxe Reverbs are way expensive, but the RI is pretty nice and available used in your price range.

Also recommended--Used DrZ Carmen Ghia, Used or new Peavey Delta Blues.

P.

Get the 40 watt pro. You can always dirty up an amp with a pedal in quiter situations but you can never find extra clean headroom. I have had Twins, Deluxes, and a Pro. In my opinion the Pro is the best of all worlds in Fender land.

If you can find the 40W version. I have had all of these amps. I still have the Deluxe(a 66--my first amp) and I wish I had hung onto my 68 Pro.

Out of the amps mentioned so far, I agree with Bill that the Super Champ will fill the bill you are shooting for. The OEM speaker is useless, imo. IF you replace that with a good Alnico and learn to turn the knobs, you can do what you want with one.


I used to run a Super Champ into a 1-12 cab with an EV speaker,and it flat cooked.

An early 40-watt Pro REverb is a cool amp. Wit the tube rectifier and the small output transformer, it does things that a TR or the ultrarlinear 70-watt Pro REverb will never do....it compresses more and sings more readily. IT is more in the vein of a DR. The two of them will do the BF REverb amp clean like a TR but when pushed they go into distortion and compression sooner and more smoothly.
The 40 watt Pro REverb can still be a handful of volume for a small club. A Deluxe REverb is the next step down.

It's so good to see the old Pro's get some lovin'!

I'm MADLY in love with mine! I've read where folks have bashed them, due to their "wimpy" transformers, but that amp has a tone like no other. You are correct Wally - Twins won't do it, my 69 DR won't do it. They're all great, but they don't do the same things. I've long ago decided that my 73 Pro'verb with the 2 Celestion G12H-80's is the BEST sounding amplifier that I've ever played through in my life. I do use the Morley JD10 because of the Pro's volume, or occasionally the Weber MASS.

The weight is another issue though. I often wish that I could make my SFDR sound at least similar, but nope.

Special thanks to Tim Swartz for looking after these babies!

I've been contemplating this same question. I have a late 60's SFDR that I bought along time ago and never used. I gigged with it last weekend and was blown away by how great it sounded. Since our amps are not mic'ed, I pushed it to the max the whole gig.

I see the posts about the Pro RV and Vibroluxe RV being the bigger 40 watt version. Do these sound like the Deluxe or do the difference in tubes/transformers alter that tone? I just want a bigger SFDR.

I've been contemplating this same question. I have a late 60's SFDR that I bought along time ago and never used. I gigged with it last weekend and was blown away by how great it sounded. Since our amps are not mic'ed, I pushed it to the max the whole gig.

I see the posts about the Pro RV and Vibroluxe RV being the bigger 40 watt version. Do these sound like the Deluxe or do the difference in tubes/transformers alter that tone? I just want a bigger SFDR.

What speaker is in the SFDR? Some of the late '60's OEM's are notoriously lo-efficiency. An Eminence LEgend GB128 will double that apparent volume if your speaker is lo-efficiency. I replaced some lo-efficiency OEM Oxfords in a BF Pro REverb and was blown away by the difference in volume.

I've been playing electric guitar for over thirty years (sure, I take set breaks! :razz: ), and have gone through a lot of amps. This is the one I've settled on as my perfect amp-for-life:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/tarmadilo/pr_001.jpg

Sounds absolutely glorious, and takes a microphone well! :mrgreen:

And, of course, it's perfect for load-in, load-out...

Cheers, Tim

Wally,

The speaker is the original, Fender "Special Design Speaker". I am not opposed to changing the speaker and might even do it anyway to get a touch more bottom end, while not increasing the volume. I thought it might be nice to keep it as is for smaller venues and go with the next step up for those time when I need more; while still retaining the same tonal qualities.

blkhrs, I would be surprised if the Emi LEgend GB128 would not do what you want. The low end is big, the top is warm with smooth distortion...very woody. IF you can see the numbers on that speaker, it might be helpful. Sometimes on those the number is underneath the label and isn't visible.

The speaker has a sticker with the numbers 081810 and 12L6-12 465-711.

I don't see anything else printed on it.

I' ve been using a 78 SFPR for a few years, originally bought as a practice/recording amp, but now my main giigging amp, and often not miked.

My amp has been modified to take a 12" speaker, not uncommon as a mod, and with an efficient speaker, (I have a Jensen PN12) it gets pretty good and loud and stays faiirly clean up to about 7 on the vol control. (Most gigs I use it at around 4!) One of the new "Neo" magnet speakers from Eminence Celestion or Jenson would add even a few more db to the clean volume and make it even more versatile. Takes a pedal real well too.

Rick J

The speaker has a sticker with the numbers 081810 and 12L6-12 465-711.

I don't see anything else printed on it.

blkhrs, that is an Oxford(465) 12L6 from maybe the 11th week of '67...and definitely doesn't put much out...wide gap, low efficiency speaker ime.

Thanks for the info Wally and Rick J. I will likely do the speaker upgrade in the future to help the SFDR out. Sounds like a good way to go.

After that, I would still like a slightly larger secondary amp. I agree with you that with the speaker, the Deluxe will be loud enough. However, I need a backup amp because I'm selling off my solid state Peavey Transfex Pro. Any suggestion for the backup that sounds like the Deluxe? I would prefer not to get another Deluxe of the same wattage just to have the bigger amp if a situation calls for it.

The 40-watt SF Pro Reverbs from the 70's may do the trick, as someone suggested. They're not the beasts the Twins are, so they have more versatility. They also get a lot louder than the DRs. The 70's Pro Reverbs also have master volumes, so you can tame them a little and get some crunch at somewhat lower volumes, although nowhere near bedroom volumes. And I've heard a couple Fender guys say they think they're the all-time best amps ever. I wouldn't go that far, but the Pro Reverb would be my pick of the 60's and 70's Fenders.

Deluxe Reverbs are not loud enough for me to play with a drummer.( I hate having guitar piped through the monitors. I've been known to play two bassmans together but have recently settled on a 57 twin. You just put it in a case and you roll it in. Weight no longer matters. You wouldn't think of taking a guitar to a gig without a case to protect it, so why would you do that with an expensive amp that is much more fragile than a guitar? Go for the tone!

If you played a Les Paul, I wouldn't know what to recommend.

Since you're obviously a Tele freak like the rest of us... any of those amps are good. If it's high watt, get yourself a decent OD pedal and you'll cover all you mentioned and more.