how comes modeling amps will not do the trick for me?

arghhhh.....
i read so many good reviews about the roalnd cube 60. got one a couple of days ago, it souded sooooooo good at home. took it to the rehearsal-place today and: i will send it back asap. there is something about modeling amps, that bugs me so much. i don´t really know what it is, but when i play them loud, at gig-volumes, all the magic is gone. that happened to a whole bunch of other modeling amps i tried without much sucess before. i really like my pod for recording. guess i am oldschool and have to face it: the miracles of digital amps are not happening for me. now the search for a real small tubeamp has to start.

Take heart, you're in the majority - not the minority.
I've learned from many years of using backline - increasingly more of it modeling amps - how to get a "workable" sound from digital. It's not my preference but I find that as long as they have high, clean headroom - I can find one amp model and then use my tried and true pedals to get my tone. At least enough so that the audience doesn't know the difference.
I'll also say this from my perspective as an audience member/guitar player. When I'm at a gig to listen and I see a 'Line 6' up there, I generally cringe in anticipation of anemic tone ... and I am rarely disappointed in that regard.
Hey, some love 'em and sound great. Different strokes. I won't even practice through one at home. Maybe someday though?

I believe modeling amps use a lot of effects - delay, chorus, reverb, etc. In small rooms, they sound great, but these effects are lost in large venues.

I suspect that this is the "secret" to Bose sound systems.

This is just hearsay but I've heard a few times before that the way a lot of modelers get the sound they do is by using a full range (meaning full audio spectrum) signal into a full range speaker and manufacturing things like harmonics in the low level signal rather than let them be produced as side effects in the output section because of the design and construction of the amp. I don't know but I imagine that's why they seem to fall on their face in a live setting.

I believe modeling amps use a lot of effects - delay, chorus, reverb, etc. In small rooms, they sound great, but these effects are lost in large venues.

I suspect that this is the "secret" to Bose sound systems.

I think you're right about Bose, and I think the reluctance of Bose to publish specs for their systems is evidence of it.

I have a Vox AD30vt that I have used on many smallish gigs, even a couple of outdoor ones. . .not surprisingly the Vox models (ac15 & ac30) seem to work pretty well for bluesy, country, slightly gritty tones. But I found on the whole, at the end of the night (so to speak) ultimately the sound is unsatisfying, so I went back to using a tube amp. (my 95 Blues Deluxe - but have been tweaking it with THD yellowjackets/TAD el84s, some various new preamp tubes and a jensen neo 12")

The tubes just have a meatier tone I think. I found the heavier overdrive models on the modelers to be pretty useless for me - and having heard guys use them in small clubs, not running through big PA systems, they tend to sound pretty sucky. As noted above, the Line 6 POD stuff seems to be the most problematic in that regard. Not sure why.

As I've certainly noted in the recent past, I'm a pretty big fan of the Vox modeling amps. My brother/bandmate Mike has been gigging with an AD30vt for quite a while now, and he digs it, as do I.

Unlike the other modelers, the Vox preamp sends the signal to a very low-power tube power amp section, using a 12AX7, that then sends it along to a solid-state power section and hence to the speaker. I can testify that it responds to player dynamics like a real tube amp.

Cheers, Tim

I got my son a Roland Cube. Of course he's ten and just learning to play so it's great for him. But to me it sounds like a tin can. I also have GuitarPort on the computer. Fine for practicing but don't love the models for recording.

I do like Amplitube Jimi Hendrix though. For recording, the models sound pretty good...

But for playing, I need tubes!

Unlike the other modelers, the Vox preamp sends the signal to a very low-power tube power amp section, using a 12AX7, that then sends it along to a solid-state power section and hence to the speaker. I can testify that it responds to player dynamics like a real tube amp.

Cheers, Tim

A friend of mine has a Vox modeling amp and it does sound great. I didn't know it used a tube to model a tube amp but that does explain it. :wink:

Tim, good to hear someone who plays out and listens. I also have a vox modeling amp and have no complaints, sweet sounding amp which is very versitle and in my opinion relativly accurate in it's models. Not to endorse all modeling amps but the 12ax7 seems to work very well in the emulation of the tube amps modeled. Just my opinion; bil

Well...

I have a VOX AD60 VTX Valvetronix and I'm VERY happy with it.

One thing I learned with those modeling amps is, that the sound you set up at home will never work in a band context, and vice versa.
I recently took my amp at home, to clean it a little bit, and - just for fun - I plugged in, played with the gig- and rehearsal setups in my living room. It sounded REALLY awful.
Set up then a good "living room sound", o.k. took it back and with the band, it sounded weak and thin.

Maybe you should setup your amp in your rehearsal room, asking to play the band some standards, while you work on your amp's sound?

Another tip: do not use too many effects at once, try to program a dry sound. IMHO, the dryer the sounds, the better and more powerful they are.

I did that and now everything is honky dory.

IF I was you, I wouldn't give up so early, just play around with your amp, I'm almost sure, that in the end you'll get your sound. Contrary to most people believings, modeling amps are NOT easy to set up. I takes some time.
Cheers!

Where as I love my Vox AD30VT, it will never sound exactly like a tube amp. The technology is just not there. My Vox is a compromise. I may be able to buy what I want some day, but not now.

For many of us on a budget, the point is if it is "good enough" for now.

I used to have a Line 6 Spider 2x12 (first generation) and while it did get very loud, the low strings sounded terrible at that volume. It couldn't have been the speakers distorting since they were Eminence Legends so my guess is the preamp liked to "fake" power amp distortion. The modulation effects were fun on it, but it always was lacking. Using a compressor helps a lot with these I found as well, but I guess you already returned it. I now own nothing but vintage solid state amps ('60s Kustom K200s and a '87 Carvin SX-100) and a few low wattage tube amps (Epi VJr. and Champ 600) so I am done with modelers. While amps like the new Cubes can be handy for some situations, I have decided to keep my computers on my desk and out of my amps...

how comes modeling amps will not do the trick for me?

because they can't and don't sing !
Only good tube amps are capable of it, and single ended tube amps do it best....

Jes' m.h.o., y.m.m.v.

Eddie - you need a real amp! I bet you could re-wire that Fender 30 for some pretty good sounds. It probably has all the right parts inside, with just a little tweaking you could probably make it a beauty. Maybe start a thread asking for advice from other Fender 30 owners?

I'm a pretty big fan of the Vox modeling amps.
hi tim, i tried the vox as well and brought it back to the shop. i guess the real good players like you guys can make every amp sound great. :wink:

One thing I learned with those modeling amps is, that the sound you set up at home will never work in a band context, and vice versa.

+1 on that.

Applies to tube tech, too. Everything sounds different everywhere.

My friend has a DRRI; never likes it at home. We played through one at GC over the weekend, in their little "quiet room." It sounded so great, we BOTH bought new guitars. He gets home -- back to not liking the amp. Then he brings guitar and amp over to my place, and we're both loving it.

I've had good luck with my Blues Deluxe RI, at home and band practice... except for the last time. The band was playing louder than usual, and somehow I wasn't quite getting the right sound out of the amp.

It's a constant struggle, a constant series of adjustments. I hated my Vox ToneLab sooooooooo much, when I first got it home. The trick I learned with that (thanks to a suggestion online) -- DON'T USE THE PRESETS. The ToneLab can be wonderful, but you have to set it up yourself, and adjust adjust adjust.

IF I was you, I wouldn't give up so early, just play around with your amp, I'm almost sure, that in the end you'll get your sound. !
ok, i will give the cube another try. since i have another real killeramp with tubes, and the cube is just for different stuff. it´s very easy to drive yourself crazy with amps by the way.....

arghhhh.....
i read so many good reviews about the roalnd cube 60. got one a couple of days ago, it souded sooooooo good at home. took it to the rehearsal-place today and: i will send it back asap. there is something about modeling amps, that bugs me so much. i don´t really know what it is, but when i play them loud, at gig-volumes, all the magic is gone. that happened to a whole bunch of other modeling amps i tried without much sucess before. i really like my pod for recording. guess i am oldschool and have to face it: the miracles of digital amps are not happening for me. now the search for a real small tubeamp has to start.

but it sounds to me as if it DOES do the trick for you: at home. these things are like tools. use it where it sounds great. when you're making demos, and it's handy to turn a dial and get different tones, then, delight in it. but also have something else that you use live. i have a big tube amp, a little tube amp, and a pod 2.0 with a tech 21 power engine. i don't use any one of those things for everything.

I've never liked modelers live, but i've gotten amazing results going direct to the board in the studio. You can hear the results at myspace.com/jefffriedman

One of the post production tricks we used was running the tracks through a couple of vintage Neve compressors.

Modelling amps need to be mic'ed or have a line signal sent to the PA. Also, you need to go very sparingly on the effects. A little goes a long way. If you try to use the thick, plush effects settings in a band situation it just turns into a swirly/fizzy mess that gets lost in the cymbal frequencies.

I have heard a couple guys get great sounds using Line 6 amps live but they all used very little effects and no external pedals. It can be done but it requires a different approach than a tube amp does. Get the technique together and and you can do it.

Has anyone here tried the Kolbe? tube poweramp with modeler holder? That sounded like a good solution to me.

I use a Johnson J station and its very fun and sounds very good by itself, but I tried it once through a PA and it did loose a bit of fullness and punch. Sticking to my huge amp for now.

Eddie, I can only assume that the cube is not as "high tech" with its modeling as others with higher sampling and speed. I have read very good things about The Hughes and Kettner Zentera modeling amps due to their processor speed, as you are a Deutchmann you could perhaps look for one of them in your home country.

Otherwise its back to small tube combo and pedal board?

I have been on a quest since the 70s to create lively sounds from electronics (tape, Moog, Arp, Buchla, MIDI, FM, digital, spectral, Max/MSP). By lively, I mean a sound that is not dead in space. I have been teaching this since the late 80s. Based on my experience, the most important element in creating lively sounds is randomness. By applying very subtle levels of randomness to the loudness, frequency, and timbre (however it is achieved, whether through some kind of synthesis or filtering), formerly dead sounds can be enlivened. As I play through my Champ, I am struck by how non-repeatable everything is. It seems impossible for me to play a note twice in exactly the same way. Not so with digital. Therefore, my complaint with digital is its repeatability. If I were designing modeling amps, I would build in randomness. Maybe they do this already?

and I noticed a lack of AC30's on stage! What?? I look around and at the drum riser they are all going through Vox Tone-Labs--even the bass player and you know what?...It sounded great!----I didn't like it visually, because it ruined the effect for me---but...probably not for the non-guitar geek set. I am sure I couldn't pull it off but it convinced me that it CAN be done. cheers!-----------JIMO

I have a Cube 30 and a tarted up DRRI. Obviously the DRRI sounds better. But I've discovered that if I run my tele or strat through my Allums modded Boss CS3 compressor first, the sound really takes on a tube like punch. You have to be careful as too much compression kills the dynamics. This is also a low to medium volume solution like a church or a stage with the amp miked and a good monitoring system.

I don't particularly care for modeling amps either, however, they do have their place. Personally, I use the Vox AD30VT for it's vox settings, or its Dumble Clean. The other modeling amp that I've used in loud situations is my Fender Cyber-Deluxe. They don't make them anymore, but they can be found used for a reasonable price and the tone is shockingly good for a solid state modeling amp.

I guess I have been blessed that I can be happy with just about any tube combo and not lust for the sound of something else. When I parted ways with solid state and all of my hair-band days pedals, I became much happier. Same with modeling amps. I just play straight-forward tube combos with a bit bit of reverb and maybe the CryBaby. I have no desire to pull up the exact same settings as some guy on some record and upload them to my amplifier so I can sound like Band X's latest CD. I sound like me through my VibroChamp, my Boogie, or even my old Marshall Lead12. Heck, one of my all-time favorite amps is my Pignose.

Thankfully, I just don't need to have multiple amp sounds when I play. I just want something that sounds good. No huge tone quest for me, because I think it's the soul that makes the tone, not the amp.

Champ or Princeton.

While far from panacea, I had a Spyder II that had hidden features built into it - allowed for "boost" tweaking, playing with the even/odd harmonic structure on a few models, etc.

Dry, dry, dry is the way to go. If you must use effects, just use a touch. The problem with them in many modelers is that they aren't inserted in the right part of the signal, and it really makes a mess of things.

A good modeler will have a global bypass/override option, that kills all of the effects, gating, and other doo-doo. Bypass mode should be your starting point, then add back in compression or whatever else you need to make it more "lively."

I'm with Tim and the others who have fallen for the Valvetronix. The only shortcomings I've encountered are the stock speaker and closed back cab. Since it utilizes a very different power amp design (noted above), I've concluded that the "full range" speakers that most associate with putting in a modeling amp does not apply. You can get a replacement that works for the models you most frequently use. I wouldn't go nutz putting a pricey alnico in one, but there's plenty of other good stuff to choose from.

The Valvetronix is the only modeler that I've stuck with - everything else is very old school tubes. At the end of the day, it still isn't applicable for every guitarist. There's still tonal differences, and you may not be able to find them suitable for your application(s).

a lot of modeling amps do a lot of things okay, but maybe only one thing good. (and sometimes none) the one thing no solid state amp will ever do is crank up and react like a tube amp. it's NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

but aside from that, the biggest problem you're undoubtedly running into with that cube is that is a small box to crank up loud in the first place. distorted and cranked, it sounds boxy and lifeless. IMHO, the cube does NOT excel at dirty tones.

that said, i will defend the cube--i use mine for ultra clean tones when doing the whole cocktail jazz thing. i never have it turned up more than a third of the way or so, and it sounds great.

the cube is what it is, and for certain applications, it's a gem.

I am continually amused by this: the more gimmicks, gadgets, and advanced circuitry they invent - the more we seem to need all that to get 'our sound'.

Thank heavens that Scotty Moore, Cliff Gallup, Check Berry etc were born before all this.

These days they would all be sitting alone in a home studio with headphones, tweaking parameter knobs trying to get the perfect guitar sound!

Eddie - whatever you used on your YouTube Rockabilly lesson is just fine. I've been up in my room for a week trying to make my amp sound just like that!

My take?

Yeah. I like the Vox stuff best too.

I came to the conclusion recently that the reason I never like modelers is because I've done a lot of critical listening in my professional life, and I know what a tube amp sounds like. I know what a tube amp is going to do next, as it were. I can't even put my finger on exactly what's wrong with the modelers in a live setting, but I do know that they don't cut through the mix like a tube amp does.

I think the reason is the way the amps are modeled. This is pure speculation, but I assume companies like Line6 put each vintage amp through a series of similar things, and extrapolate the amp's processes through it's response to whatever impulses it's being fed. What this can't account for is the variety of different players out there, and their varied techniques and play styles. If Line6 records a single detuned, palm-muted chug through a cranked-up Bogner, they may not get the subtle nuances of what goes into a second chug when the amp's power supply is already straining from reproducing a huge low-end. I assume that sort of thing is why modelers always sound way too perfect to me - until it comes time to get real.

Of course, if that's how they handle things, it doesn't explain why Line6s Marshall models sound little like their real-world counterparts to me.

Meh. Tube amps live 'till the day I die!

Eddie - whatever you used on your YouTube Rockabilly lesson is just fine. I've been up in my room for a week trying to make my amp sound just like that!
jon!!!! that is a pod 2 through my stereo! plus a danelectro slapback. but that is without any volume and without a drummer banging along. so far for sound samples on the internet. be it like it is: i will play my killer marshall tubeamp (wait for the next nl-tele session, there will be no more fenderamp with me!) and take the cube 60 in the camper when its time to go places, where tubeamps are too vulnerable. specially since the marshall is mine already and payed. did i write somewhere already, that ampdecisions can drive a grown man crazy?

It's a very simple test for me. I crank up the volume knob and if it doesn't sound good with the band then I'm tossing the amp.
When I used a friend's line 6 flextone III none of the models seemed to work with the band except for the AC15 copy. I cranked it and used my Rat when I wanted more beef.

If I buy a modeler it'll just be to emulate the AC15. I love that amp and really want a real one. I think it works for me because it's almost as limited in features as my DRRI. I hate having lots of knobs and junk.

how comes modeling amps will not do the trick for me?
Eddie, the answers to that question sit on either side of your head. Your ears are your connection to the sonic world, and what pleases or displease them drives your search.
The continuing saga of Eddie Wagner's tone search.. next installment will be a surprise....
Good luck, Eddie! Check this one out...
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o175/Wally051/IMG_0550.jpg
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o175/Wally051/IMG_0552.jpg
2X6AQ5 power tubes....maybe 8 watts through 2X6 Alnicos...tiny twin sonics...clean,clean,clean with reverb and tremolo. You need one of these tiny Tiesco amps.

Contrary to what others have said here,I disagree that you can not get a sound out of a modeling amp live.I did it for the last four years,and always get complemented on my sound.I play through a Line 6 Flextone III.The best is that I took the name plate off of it.
A player in the audience would come up to give me a compliment,followed by what kind of amp is that.They ALL stepped back in dis belief when I told them.A lot almost refused to believe it at all.

I am a guitar geek to the core,from playing to building and fixing amps and guitars etc.When I first got the Flexi,I wanted to throw it down the basement steps I hated the sound so much.I went back to my trusty Mesa Boogie MKIII Simulclass blue stripe head.

The Boogie started to fart out on me.I had it built in the mid '80's(when Boogies were still "boutique" amps).It needed a rest.

Back to the Flexi,one last time I figured.I picked up a set of MIDI cables.Bingo!!!!! Now I could REALLY get in there and do some "deep editing".

Sounded good.But not good enough.So back to the drawing board.

One day it occurred to me....."why the hell am I modeling Celestion speakers,and then PLAYING it through a cheezy stock Line 6 Celestion speaker?".

So I threw in a 200W EVM that I had in a Boogie cab.THAT was the trick!!!!!!!!!

The modeling sounds seemed "truer",as the speaker that I was using was rated way higher then what the amp put it,and had a much better frequency response to boot.

That being said,I think a lot of the modelers get a bad rap because the manufacturers always load them with crappy speakers.
This is digital.To me,the sound coming out of the amp should not be colored by the speaker.

So on the gig I used the Flexi with I played primarily rhythm.Hard rock,metal,classic rock.And we did our share of Southern rock,where I needed to call on some good clean sound.It delivered like a champ.

So a few months back,the other guitar player in the band split,so now Im the only guitar player.I used the Flexi for the last four months or so.And no matter what I do,I can not get a lead sound out of it that I can get a feel for and flow with.

I dont use any pedals.Nothing against them,I have a mess of them but I am a guitar/cord/amp guy.Always was.

Perhaps with a pedal,I could have gotten a lead sound.Wasnt into spending the jack on a bunch of stuff to see what I could get to work.

Instead,I picked me up a beautiful minty '92 Soldano Hot Rod 50.Came in yesterday afternoon.Damn!!!!!!This thing is sweet!!!

TUBES!!!!!!!! My god I forgot how great they feel!!!!!The amp plays like an instrument.Picking up all of the little nuances and so forth.

And another thing,that I could NEVER get with the Flexi..........With the Soldano,when I roll of the guitar volume,the sound gets cleaner,yet you still get the richness of all of those little harmonics and what not that float around the notes.
When I rolled off the guitar volume with the Flexi,it was the same sound,just lower,if you know what I am trying to say.

So,tho I really dig the modeling stuff,Im done.I learned my lesson.My 15 year old son got the Flexi for his birthday.A great first amp..........It will make him appreciate the Soldano and the Boogie I have when he inherits them some day.

Tubes for me at the shows.But hey,down here in my studio,this digital stuff is great!!!!!!


Mike

I have a cube 60 that I'm constantly playing with trying to get that nice warm tube sound (at home). One trick I found to warm up the sound was to turn the presence down to "0". I agree about the effects. Very sparingly. I have also found the amp to lose some tone a high volume. It's a great amp for experimenting and recording. I really only use the 2 fender settings and the vox. The Vox setting is the closest to sounding like a tube amp. IMHO. Its a great little amp and "loud".

My experience with modeling amps is that they miss out on the picking dynamics of a tube amp. Listeners don't really notice, but the "feel" when you're playing them always seems really one dimensional to me in comparison to a tube amp. I wish they worked for me, since the light weight and flexibility sure would be nice, but in the end they always seem like they're competing for the "Best Low-Fat Non-Dairy Frozen Yogurt" prize instead of "Best Ice Cream".

And that's before I even get into the whole "really loud at the gig yet somehow you can't cut through the mix" phenomena...

I was in a conversation a couple of weeks ago with a guy who is one of the top 'speech synthesis' guys on the planet (oxford educated, MIT, Bell Labs Post Doc work etc etc) a really amazing brilliant genius grant kind of guy....

He has been working on speech synthesis (you know like when you have your computer read to you) the conversation was about an hour and my head is still spinning.... there is so much that goes into how we hear, the cues we use that enhance meaning, that reduce fatigue, that signify and nuance meaning.... the list just goes on and on. So what? you ask. What the heck does that have to do with this?

I think there are some smart folks working on guitar amp modelling, but I have a feeling they are at the same spot we were at in speech synthesis 15 years ago... The critical attributes that make something 'sound' right probably pose some problems technically that even the most expensive units (processors) still can't overcome. I would expect that research will continue (although the current units sell well and for the discerning ear tube amps are still available... so there is not a tremendous push to get it right.)

Breast implants have come a long way and in certain instances result in pleasing effects, but more often than not, you can tell the difference and while that doesn't totally spoil the fun... nothing beats a nice set of tubes!

That Teisco is righteous btw.

i tried again all kinds of settings with the cube, packed it in and send it back. i will get myself a fender super champ xd instead. the poor folks at thomann.de really have a hard time with me.

arghhhh.....
i read so many good reviews about the roalnd cube 60. got one a couple of days ago, it souded sooooooo good at home. took it to the rehearsal-place today and: i will send it back asap. there is something about modeling amps, that bugs me so much. i don´t really know what it is, but when i play them loud, at gig-volumes, all the magic is gone. that happened to a whole bunch of other modeling amps i tried without much sucess before. i really like my pod for recording. guess i am oldschool and have to face it: the miracles of digital amps are not happening for me. now the search for a real small tubeamp has to start.

I can't speak for you, but I'll say this. I can't a good sound coming out of one of those amps either. However, Arlo uses one and God knows he gets great tones out of it.

Bottom line? In my case, I think it means that I simply don't know how to dial a good sound out of a modeling amp.

The same thing applies to EMG pickups for that matter. I can't make one sound good to save my life. But Vince Gill can, so I suppose it's my inability - not the pickup's fault...

I usually gig with my Tele over a Blues Deluxe, but in summer we were invited to an outdoor gig.
"just bring your axes and drumsticks, everything else will be on stage".
We didn't know what equipment was to be expected, but I got to play through a Vox AD 100Valve Tronix.

as there was very little time to do a soundcheck I told the guy, to whom it belonged, to skip all the effects and just switch me through the amp simulation presets.
At one point I told him to STOP - because it just sounded right.
I don't even know which preset it was - maybe B.F. or Vox AC30, but it was effin' great.
for some more beef I had a couple of pedals and a compressor.
only vocals were on P.A. so the 100 watt Vox was pushing quite some air over those 2x12 speakers.

the responce and dynamics were incredible, I loved it very much.
the overall band-sound was very good (so I was told later on) and
I was very impressed with my one-time experience with a Vox100VT