Tweed tone question

I don't have access to alot of amps, nor is my ear developed to the point to be able to tell much of a difference anyway, but when "they" talk about tweed tone, are they generally referring to a clean or an overdriven tone?

Also, in a very general sense, as of course speakers, cabinets and tubes will all vary, is that "tweed tone" available through all the Fender tweed amps? .....the Bassman, 57 Twin, Blues Deluxe or Blues Deville?

Just curious. I play a 52RI Tele through a Blues Deluxe, generally clean as I find over 3 to 4 on the volume the bass end of things gets a tad "farty", and below 3 is generally more than sufficient for my needs. To get some crunch when desired I put a Full-Drive 2 in front of it. My ears are happy with the result but I'm just curious as to what that "Tweed" sound is.

Buddy Guy uses (or used he may have switched) 2 Fender Bassman amps. That to me is the penacle of "Tweed tone". Clapton also uses a Bassman and so does Brian Setzer. Any of these are good examples. It's basicly a thicker sound that overdrives sweetly. If you can I'd go down to a guitar store and give a bassman or one of those blue deluxe amps a test drive to get your own opinion of it.

A tweed cab does not a make for a tweed tone, generally the Tweed Tone comes from the era of Fender tweed amps produced from the early 50's to the early 60's although there are "Tweed era" amps being built today. The Tweed Bassman and the Tweed Super are both great amps as is the Tweed Deluxe, these going to have point to point wiring,,, no printed curcuit boards. The Tweed tone is in the curcuit and the speaker,,, not the covering on the cab. Fender has built and is still building amps with Tweed covering but printed curcuit boards that are in no way going to give a Tweed tone.

A tweed cab does not a make for a tweed tone, generally the Tweed Tone comes from the era of Fender tweed amps produced from the early 50's to the early 60's although there are "Tweed era" amps being built today. The Tweed Bassman and the Tweed Super are both great amps as is the Tweed Deluxe, these going to have point to point wiring,,, no printed curcuit boards. The Tweed tone is in the curcuit and the speaker,,, not the covering on the cab. Fender has built and is still building amps with Tweed covering but printed curcuit boards that are in no way going to give a Tweed tone.


Of course I realize it's not the covering that affects the tone, but there are a couple of Fender tweed covered amps marketed as tweeds, and I was curious if they all are considered to provide that "tweed tone".

Once again, my reply was lost on this board, I'll be brief:

The Fender tweed covered amps built after around 1961 are not tweed amps, with the exceptions of the tweed Bassman reissue (which has its many critics) and recent Custom Shop 57 Twin and 57 Deluxe reissues . Fender started covering amps in tweed, or material with a tweed like appearance, again in the 1990s, it's all looks and no guts. The Blues and Junior series amps are not tweed amps, the Blues Deluxe, Blues Deville, Pro Jr and Blues Jr are not tweed amps.

For me, tweed is all about overdrive from mild to exploding thrash and trash, and touch sensitivity. There are different sounds and circuitries among the many tweed models, the Deluxe is very different from its bigger relatives the Twin and Bassman.

Once again, my reply was lost on this board, I'll be brief:

The Fender tweed covered amps built after around 1961 are not tweed amps, with the exceptions of the tweed Bassman reissue (which has its many critics) and recent Custom Shop 57 Twin and 57 Deluxe reissues . Fender started covering amps in tweed, or material with a tweed like appearance, again in the 1990s, it's all looks and no guts. The Blues and Junior series amps are not tweed amps, the Blues Deluxe, Blues Deville, Pro Jr and Blues Jr are not tweed amps.

For me, tweed is all about overdrive from mild to exploding thrash and trash, and touch sensitivity. There are different sounds and circuitries among the many tweed models, the Deluxe is very different from its bigger relatives the Twin and Bassman.

"Once again my reply was lost on this board???" It's hard to fly with eagles no doubt,,, :roll:

Darcy, Mik has it right.

Your tweed Blues Deluxe does not have tweed tones. Tweeds have a strong mid-range. 1960's black face and later amps have a more pronounced bass and high-end EQ curve.

Fender makes a few great sounding Tweeds right now. The hand wired '57 Deluxe and '57 Low Powered Tweed Twin are fantastic, and the PCB Bassman LTD is one of the best sounding Tweed amps I've ever played. I'm a vintage tweed nut, and you can certainly find some great amps out there right now. Richter, Victoria, Lil Dawg, Collins, Swart, etc.. The list goes on and on. So many great builders of Tweed amps right now!

A righteous sounding tweed will have rich and complex sound when played clean, and will have a very open and diffused sound when pushed. The sound of a Tweed typically doesn't just beam out of the front of the amp. It's more like a ball of sound that comes out of the amp in all directions. Alnico speakers can get a bit splattery and VERY loose in the bottom end, but at slightly lower volumes they have a complexity that Ceramic speakers can't match. Ceramic speakers have a stronger low end and very smooth highs, but they can bring to much of their own character to the table when pushed. A great tweed should have a pine cab that is NOT overbuilt! The way the cab resonates is critical to a Tweed.

A tweed is a bit primitive sounding, but allows a player to interact with the amplifier in a way that many newer amps styles rarely achieve. It's a case of feeling like you're PLAYING the amp, not just playing through the amp.

IMo, there is not one 'tweed' tone. THere are differences from model to model,year to year and even amp to amp. Generally, the early tweeds tend to be a bit darker than the tweeds from 1955 thru 1960.
The narrow panel tweeds are the most valuable and the most copied. Comparing those, the Pro, Super and Bandmaster amps have a decidedly different sound than do the Bassman and Twin amps. The first 3 compress more easily and therefore 'sing' more readily. They are softer on the low end...not as punchy...and distort more smoothly to my ear. The larger Twin(5E8,5f8) and Bassman amps(5F6A) were Fenders first move toward a punchier sound....stronger low end, less compression. These amps do indeed still compress and distort more readily than do the later brown and black panel Fenders, but they do not sound like the Pro/Bandmaster/Super group of amps.
I find the Deluxe(5E3) to be a different amp than any of the above. IT rips a bit more than the Pro/SuperBandmaster amps but 'bubbles' in its distortion characteristics moreso than the Bassman/Twin.
Given all of this, each amp is an individual. ONe will hear difference between amps of the same make,model and year even. Keep on listening to everything you can plug into.

Of course I realize it's not the covering that affects the tone, but there are a couple of Fender tweed covered amps marketed as tweeds, and I was curious if they all are considered to provide that "tweed tone".

If the amp you're looking isn't the Tweed Super or Tweed Deluxe (NOT THE BLUES DELUXE OR HOT ROD DELUXE) it isn't a Tweed circuit, it's just the covering.

Both the Tweed Super and Tweed Deluxe are four-figure amps (in terms of cost) which can be built for considerably less. The parts and schematic diagrams are readily available.

Pete, I sold my 5E3...1958...a while back...money has to be had, right? The fellow who bought had been listening to the big name clones and had not been satisfied. HE was skeptical about buying an amp unheard. When he got it, he let me know that that particular amp was more sonically pleasing than any high-dollar clone that he had played through. I had told him that it was a good one. I have heard originals that couldn't touch it. Every amp is an individual. I will probably have to build my next 5E3. I know a fellow who build trannies on paper bobbins to original specs, and I have the original '50's Jensens to make it happen. I can only hope that the result is as good as that '58 5E3 that lives in Illinois now.
Fwiw, I have a customer with a 5e3 that has sonics that are completely different from what I would want in one. It is clean. When it distorts, it is harsh and edgy. I recapped it. All voltages were proper. Bias was correct. Original Jensen in great shape. Luckily, the old fellow who owns it plays clean and at low volumes. It is perfect for him, but it would not suit me.
When you find an amp that does what you want, get it. It may not come around again.

Wally is on the money, but you can narrow down your tweed if you clarify what you're looking for.

For instance, when I talk about tweed, I'm generally talking the earlier (wide panels as opposed to narrow panels) more primitive circuits. Cathode biased, versus fixed bias, etc. Low output and raw.

Regardless. The "tweed tone" a lot of guys here USUALLY talk about is the primitive, raw, easily overdriven varieties.

On a recording, or sample/demo, you may not be able to tell it from a Marshall. BUT in front of you, you'll notice it has a gritty and warm Clean when turned down a little, and it can get fat and wild as you inch it up, and finally it can be pretty crunchy turned up loud. Tweeds in this respect are NOT like the typical Fender sound you may be used to thinking of (clean, doesn't crunch until very loud, etc).

A Blues Deluxe is not typical of any tweed type circuit. If you like how it sounds with an OD pedal, I'd suggest finding a 40-50 watt Fender that doesn't fart out and sticking with the OD pedal. The name of the tweed game is usually grit from the amp.

Thanks guys, while the hand-wired varieties are beyond my reach, there was a Bassman RI in the shop and it wasn't all that much more the Blues Deluxe I ended up buying, but I wanted switchable channels and reverb (and I've found I don't use the drive channel and very little reverb), and the size was perfect, and the Bassman just seemed too much amp for my needs, but I am reconsidering. Buddy Guy almost had me buying the Bassman but I chickened out over the extra expense and size. Maybe after Christmas......

IMo, the Bassman RI is a far superior amp to the Deluxe/Deville/Hot Rod amps. With proper tubes and biasing, it can yield very good sonics. A good pedal and the Bassman RI beats the switching options on the Deluxe,Deville/HRD amps anyday. I have a young customer who had never been satisfied with his Bassman RI. HE left it with me for a retube and service. I biased it properly with new tubes and he fell out over the sound.
The RI is not what the real deal is, but it is a good amp.

Get this book, it comes with 2 CD's with sound samples of many Fender amps. Greg Koch (the guy who does the playing) is annoying, but its interesting to hear the differences.

http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Tone-Celebrating-Years-Fender/dp/0634056131/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196371067&sr=8-1

IMo, the Bassman RI is a far superior amp to the Deluxe/Deville/Hot Rod amps.

Wally, why do you feel The Bassman RI is superior to the Hot Rod series? I'm curious, really...I'd like to learn more about amps. The reason I'm asking is that, to me, the Hot Rod amps I tried sounded much better...but then I like a punchy, clean sound. I once played through a Bassman RI and couldnt get anything close to the kind of sound I like out of it.

i had a lot of blues series fender amps - deville deluxe and junior
i found them all to be pretty good amps and kept a 93 deluxe and 03 junior.
they both have v30's which really bought these two amps to life. typical fender clean with a drive channel which is good with the master wide open only.

i dont like the cheesey jacks which break easily

i have 2 tweed clones which are like chalk and cheese

5e3 is dark and gritty with great overdriven tone from quite low volumes - more marshall than fender in character

5f4 is big sweet and sparkling - typical fender tone

I like that Blues Deluxe amp. Lots of tone and flexibility for the money, it'd be a great gigging amp on a budget. Aside from the covering it has little in common with the earlier tweeds. Me, Im partial to bandmaster and pro types, to the mid-50s two input bassman too (that was 35 watts, vs. the later, famous 45 watter.) As Wally and others state, there is no one tweed tone. What unites them all IMHO is the fat cleans, toneful overdrive and responsiveness. Deluxes and champs will have much less clean, bandmasters and bassman more, but however much clean you get, it's softer and rounder than the stark, pristine clean you'd get from BF and SF.

I always thought

"woody tone" = cathode biased, paraphrase PI output
"tweed tone" = cathode biased, cathodyne PI output
"brownface tone" = cathode biased, LTP PI output
"blackface tone" = fixed biased, LTP PI output
"silverface tone" = fixed biased, LTP PI output w/oversized output tranny

but then again, I'm wrong alot

Of course I realize it's not the covering that affects the tone, but there are a couple of Fender tweed covered amps marketed as tweeds, and I was curious if they all are considered to provide that "tweed tone".

No, dood, a Blues Deluxe, despite the cosmetics, is NOT a "tweed" amp. Not even close.

Get this book, it comes with 2 CD's with sound samples of many Fender amps. Greg Koch (the guy who does the playing) is annoying, but its interesting to hear the differences.

http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Tone-Celebrating-Years-Fender/dp/0634056131/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196371067&sr=8-1

I'm so glad to find I'm not the only person who is irritated by Greg Koch.

I'm so glad to find I'm not the only person who is irritated by Greg Koch.

:lol:

I saw Koch once at the Fender Blues Fest in 2001, first night party he and his band demoing the new Cyber Twin, he could lead, play and entertain, he was OK, I wasn't impressed much by the Cyber Twin though.

Mik

Thanks guys, while the hand-wired varieties are beyond my reach, there was a Bassman RI in the shop and it wasn't all that much more the Blues Deluxe I ended up buying, but I wanted switchable channels and reverb (and I've found I don't use the drive channel and very little reverb), and the size was perfect, and the Bassman just seemed too much amp for my needs, but I am reconsidering. Buddy Guy almost had me buying the Bassman but I chickened out over the extra expense and size. Maybe after Christmas......

I've been an on a off player since the late fifties I guess..And getting the urge to play agian a few years ago caused me to try a new 59bassman ltd...since i used to play on stage some and outside venues where more wattage was wanted for that TONE in my ear as a monitor...I like this RI ltd so much I ordered another one....and to play thru 2..welll it's neat.

I also am blessed with a new 57 twin custome shop ptp...when you patch that wiht a bassman...you get a unique tone as welll....

I love the natural tone of that amp...but i also like to play at 4+....

I'd say for recording....or the tone the smaller amps are great but you may need to mic it to get it to work with the band...which is ok too.....

the search for tone will NEVer end

[QUOTE Keep on listening to everything you can plug into.[/QUOTE]

And take anything you read here with a grain of salt. Most of the advice people give comes from experience: and there IS a lot of wisdom here about amp tone.

That said, a lot of guitarsists play for other guitarists. Owning a "cool guitar" and "cool amp" is part of that deal, as well.

Learning how to use the cool stuff, once you have it, is the hard part. I remember going to a jam session where many of the players had $3,000 guitars, "The Kind" pedals and boutique amps, etc. Most of them seemed to get 'bee-in-a-jar" tone. This little red-headed guy walks in with a beat up Squire Strat without a case, plugs into a borrowed amp and blows everyone eles's tone into the weeds. Everyone's got a similar story.

Most of the "tones" we now use in the lexicon of rock, blues, and country were originally discovered, by accident---in most cases, by someone doing something outside of the box. Plugging a guitar into a Bassman would be one of those things, or even overdriving an amp.

The rig you've got right now: 52 RI Tele---Fulldrive 2---- Blues Deluxe has a LOT of useful sounds in it. I'm wagering someone you know can mange to get a tone that fairly approximates "tweed" out of it, and do it mostly by playing technique. Let one of them play through your rig and you'll be amazed at what it is capable of. Seeing how close you can come to the sounds you are after with what you currently own will do you a lot more good than chasing sounds by trying dozens of amps.

By the time you're ready to get the amp of your dreams you'll have the ability to make it sound like you want it to

look everyone has bad things to say about the PCB tube amps around today but the one you got the blues deluxe is a great amp - just dont get it confused with the fender tweeds built 1/2 a century ago - they are nothing alike - but of all the crappy amps available today, the blues deluxe is head and shoulders above 90% of em - its a fender with great tone, a good solid amp with 14 years of development of the model behind it. there is millions of them out there for a reason - they are a great amp for the money

forget about whether its tweed tone or not its blues deluxe tone and thats plenty - so get out there on a stage and enjoy your amp

Check out the schemtaic for the Blues Deluxe. You will see that there is just a bit in common with the old tweeds in that there are two stages of gain before the tone controls....disregarding the Drive swtiching. THis gain structure is one aspect that makes the original tweed amps do what they do. I am not the biggest fan of these modern PCB Blues Deluxe amps....as a matter of fact there is on sitting here right now that came in for bad connectino on teh board....but the straight sound is something that is usable imho....as long as the amp is working. ONe can get something like a punchy big Tweed sonic if the biasing is set properly and one knows how to set the amp controls up for the guitar. It isn't a Bassman RI, but it is closer to that than a BF RI just because of the preamp gain structure.

If I had the money I would probably get a 57RI Tweed Twin used.

I do love tweeds, but appreciate everything. One of the best recorded tones I ever got was strat into blues deluxe in a rehearsal studio. No effects. It sounded good in the room ... on tape, really something else. I can't buy every amp I like, but that one ever after gets propers from me.

I'm so glad to find I'm not the only person who is irritated by Greg Koch.

+1.

Tom Wheeler obviously spent a lot of time on the book. It's a shame he couldn't have made better arrangements for the CDs.

using both amps on 3 [BD clean channel]
dial in good tone on the super then on BD
using a 12" V30 for both amps
the super runs at 4 ohms but for the sake of the exercise decided use the same speaker for both amps

guitar 1 is a thinline with SD hot stack bridge vintage stack neck
both sounded quite similar with the BD showing a little more mids
in a blind test you prolly could hear a very slight difference

guitar 2 strat with SD alnico 2 pro's
heres the rub, the tweed super sounded much more articulate and complex than the BD which sounded flat and middy -

obviously the super circuit is tuned for the older style guitar while the BD is more in tune with the wide variety of different pickups around today

i realise there will be a difference with the super running at 4 ohms on its native speaker setup but i have to say that i was surpised how close they were in some aspects

i then plugged into the deluxe i have here [5e3 circuit] and mmm no comparison is possible with this little gem, the Super and the BD are on a different planet soundwise

back to the blues deluxe - obviuosly when you bring in the 2 nd chanel it opens up a whole new ball game with the drive / master config - people either love it or hate and i never liked the middy tone it gives - if you want heaps of saturation you wont get it here - at best you will get a gritty drive tone

the super has two chanells which interact nicely when you run a patch cable from bright to normal inputs - dialing in the normal chanel gives increasing drive and warmth and there are plenty of nice tones just by tweaking the normal volume

i loved the BD from the day I got it but for some reason it never went out to gigs much - i always saw it as my best amp but i tended to take the blues junior a lot as i play in a lot of small rooms and even used it in big rooms when my back is bad - the BD is a heavey mother also - i often asked myself why i kept it and in the end it was i think more that i loved the look of the amp more than the sound - if it was photo shoot or a gig to impress i always took it along with the best clothes and fanciest guitar - when it got down and dirty in a bar for a night of blues or country boogie it was the junior or or the tweed deluxe and an old tele or strat that went along

to sum it up the BD is getting sold and the super is staying [the super is head / cab config and lite to carry]

Yes! I love to annoy!

I'm glad I succeeded. I have always gotten a kick out of those who find me about as funny as the runs. Usually, they at least get a kick out of the playing. Sometimes I am equally successful at losing on both counts and that is utterly satisfying as I thrive on negative reinforcement.

So, for love of God, avoid my 9 records, 13 books and dvd's like the plague because they are all exceedingly annoying.

Tom Wheeler should have known better as well. Can't trust anyone's judgement these days.

We ride!

Greg Koch

Jackass at large.....

huahuahauhauah!!!!!!!!

you never know who's reading these things when you decide to talk some smack!

Cheers Greg!!!

Tweed Tone sounds like a broken Marshall. Not my favorite amp type by any stretch.

Checked you out on YouTube Greg-when I grow up I wanna play just like you. In the meantime, it is annoying that you're so dang good and funny too!

Loved you in Halifax Greg! Engaging and entertaining, and not the least bit annoying......don't change a thing! Next time you're in town, I'll buy the beer!

Thanks for all the excellent feedback. On further reflection, the Bassman is still too much amp for my needs, and at my level of skill, it wouldn't much matter what I plugged in to.

My BD is up for some modding anyway. I was quite happy with it as is but some guys I jam with are forever modding everything they own, and I finally gave into their "..change that speaker man" and gave Ted Weber a call. Early Muddy Waters, Lightning Hopkins, T-Bone Walker and some Keith Richards tone is on order (thats pretty much exactly what I asked Ted for) so we'll see what I get!

I think Muddy played through a Super later on, some of T-Bone's recordings were with a tweed Bassman, Keef used tweed Twins a good amount of the time.

If I remember correctly, of course.

Tweed Tone sounds like a broken Marshall. Not my favorite amp type by any stretch.

Without the 5F6A, where would Jim Marshall have gotten a clue about where to start?