Live: Play parts/solos note-for-note or improvise?

These questions came to me after watching The Police, SRV, and Rush DVDs back-to-back-to-back. To be exact, I was particularly focused on the drummers of each band--Stewart Copeland, Chris Layton, and Neil Peart, respectively.

Stewart, possibly one of my favorite musicians of all-time, is a great improviser. He never plays the same part twice, and each time is absolutely inspiring and incredible to hear/watch. To me, he's the closest thing to a melodic drummer playing untuned percussion--if indeed that's possible--as I've ever heard.

On the other hand, Neil, another of my absolute favorite musicians, can replicate his inscrutably difficult drum parts note-for-note every time, yet his performance is never stilted, in my opinion. It's amazing to me that he has every single drum/cymbal hit--and each hit with its own particular phrasing--of every Rush song filed away in his brain. The man has total recall, but his playing doesn't sound mechanical.

Chris Layton is somewhere in the middle. Whenever Stevie Ray stretched out a solo, Chris would be right there with a really nice groove with little bits of magic here and there. But Chris could/can also play a song in concert pretty much the way he played it on the studio album.

I've come to the conclusion that it all depends on the musician, the band, and the song/solo. (I have to admit, though, that I like to hear/see a particularly difficult passage and/or solo replicated live just to know that it can be done! :P)

Also, what do you ladies and gents do when you're playing live?

Joel

I like seeing people improvise playing live, but throwing in a couple familiar licks. There's always those few identifiable riffs in a good solo that you associate with the song, and it's cool to hear an artist stick those in during the course of the improv.

... on who i'm working with, i do like a bit of "latitude" to stretch out on but some times folks want it "as per" the original.
If you are playing "Folsom prison blues" i would take the view that those first two or four bars of the solo would have to be "as per" and then maybe stretch out a bit after that, sometimes it can be fun and testing playing in someone elses "box".
On the other hand, i saw the 'Eagles' live and i think its the only time i have ever heard an audience sing a solo when it came to "Hotel California", i still dont know wether thats good or bad but it would seem to be a bit "predictable ?", i would find it hard not to throw in a curve of some sort just to see who notices.
I do prefer just to "Strap it on and go" and some of the folks i work with will let me do that but maybe you have to go through the "as per" years to earn that.
You just can't not play those 'signature ' licks though, "Honky tonk women" without that intro ?, i dont think so.

Improvising can be an expected thing depending on the band (many famous examples). Sometimes even these bands' best moments are when they come closest to their records though - or at least not stray too far.

One band that replicates their complex recordings live which I've enjoyed in concert is Yes. When they play 'Close To The Edge' it's going to sound like the album which is pretty cool considering that the recording itself was one massive edit (I think that's why Producer Eddie Offord was pictured/treated as 'one of the band' on the back cover). It is exciting to see a laboriously crafted studio creation replicated live with feeling. I'm thinking here also of The Beach Boys' 'Good Vibrations' from their Knebworth DVD.

When I play, I'm a compulsive improviser. I play the theme but I always add or take away things - but only if I feel it. On bass, I tend to stick to my part but I'll throw in a little nudge or drag here and there depending on what the mood is.

The bigger issue I have with seeing a band is if they've changed their classic gear. There's nothing worse than seeing someone who's famous for playing a Gretsch, say, come out with a Steinberger or something (and the opposite would be true as well).

...But that's a whole other post!

there's nothing worse than hearing a covers band guitarist fluffing the difficult bit of a well known and loved solo. it's like waving it under your nose and then taking it away from you.

there's nothing worse than hearing a covers band guitarist fluffing the difficult bit of a well known and loved solo. it's like waving it under your nose and then taking it away from you.

I'll go you one better, Cap'n: I know a fellow who gradually lost all respect for Edward Van Halen when EVH couldn't nail his original solo in "Jump" in three different Van Halen concerts. :lol: (Edward is definitely one of those musicians who improvises quite a bit, and he's pretty inspiring at it, in my opinion.)

Joel

for some reason it doesn't bother me when it's the original artist (there's that word again gah!) re-working something. i'm just thinking of all the bar bands i've seen launching into something like sweet child of mine only to settle for "well it goes something like this" when it comes to the twiddly bits!

For me, what's special about the live performance is that it has the potential to be unique. There needs to be some aspect of improvisation there, or I'd rather save my money and listen to the CD at home.

There are a few songs that were so well-crafted in the first place that the instruments should really be played exactly as they were arranged the first time (symphonies & Motown songs, for example), but the vocalists should at least let you know that they're not lip-synching.

I never want to be at a show and have to ask myself "is it live, or is it memorex?"

If I'm gonna go see a band do all the songs like the records, I'd just as soon stay home.

I think if you're covering a song, you should have all of the original parts/nuances down. Then, when you play live, you will have the confidence to be able to put your touches on it without getting lost.

Or at least, work up an original arrangement of it. Competence, I guess, is what I really appreciate.

As a musician, I suppose I should say I'd rather they improvise, and experience the music and vibe of that particular situation. Seems like the right answer right?

But the winning answer is BOTH. Start the solo with all the memerable good stuff, hitting it note for note. Then take it into a blazing spiral of improved energy, then bring it back and finish big, playing a grand version of the recoreded ending. Give the fans what they want, but take it to the next level, beyond the recording.

it depends
on the tune, the venue, etc....

if you play McCartney's "Maybe i'm Amazed", and lay out during the solo section, i can guarantee the crowd will sing it to you, same with Hotel California, as was noted.....

great thread Joel !

While I think you have to be "in the ballpark" with songs, I think copying note for note, whether it's the original or a cover band, is a complete waste of time.

One of the things I admired about the Who before Keith Moon dies was that they would take both their own songs and covers, and change them up. Summertime Blues sure didn't sound like Eddie Cochran and Young Man Blues sure didn't sound like Mose Allison.

If you play the first three or four notes of the solo in Sweet Home Alabama the way it is onthe record, after that you can do whatever you want.

OTOH, if you play "Can't get Enough of Your Love," you better have that solo down. If you have two guitar players, you both better have it down.

So for the most part, I'd say I want improvisation but there are a *few* exceptions. I want to see a band stretch out live, show me something different.

I usually *can't* do the thing note for note on whatever song it is, but I try to something that sounds familiar on it, at least...a couple of signature licks or whatever but the rest is usually up to me.

As others have said, it totally depends on the tune and the situation. By my own choice, I've gravitated over time toward being in a couple of song-oriented original bands. Four and eight bar "solos" are the norm, and really, the ticket here is more about parts and concise melodic statements than it is incendiary improvisational prowess (think Mike Campbell, Davey Johnstone, George Harrison - guitaristically speaking). Given said vehicles, by the time you're settling into "improvising", it's time to step up up to the mic and catch your vocals for the refrain... so, for the short little bits, I'm more comfortable with coming up with something that somebody could hum or whistle - more like a "hook" (melody) than a "solo".

Having said that, I'm an old guitar wanker from way back... if I had a nickel for every time I've waxed modal over 73 choruses of a tune with reckless abandon, I'd be a rich man (God knows the wanking itself didn't pay dividends!). If the tune and vibe are right, I'm still up for it... just depends on the mood of the room and the musicians involved; I'm always up for riding a tangent if it's truly sincere and visceral. The pop rock band is prone to toss out a tune by Robert Johnson, Howlin' Wolf, Neil Young, and others, at live shows from time to time... so, sure, I'm down with some spirited wanking. With the acoustic duo, 90% of my rides are off-the-cuff, so I can get my ya ya's out with that. I haven't held a straight-up jazz or blues gig in at least ten years, but I couldn't imagine approaching that sort of thing (including chord work) with anything other than an improvisational bent.

Nonetheless, I'm mostly a song-oriented guy anymore. I mostly concentrate on supplying decent hooks and backing vocals that are reasonably in tune. I enjoy the music, as an entity unto itself, much more than pursuing the art of the improvisational whiz, anymore. "Lead guitarist" is sort of a title that makes me shudder, although that's what I'm usually called upon to supply; I'm perfectly cool with it, as I'm no less fascinated with the possibilities of improvisation than I was thirty years ago, and I've no regrets digging in if there's a barn to burn, musically speaking. However, I'm perfectly content to play bass or mandolin, and sing harmonies. From time to time, I'm invited to participate with, or join, "jam bands". I appreciate it, but I don't think I could hang with that structure for very long... I will say though that the prospect of not really needing to rehearse ad infinitum is quite appealing!

The drummer thing is an interesting study. My personal tastes in groove and meter and economy have changed fairly drastically over time, and I'll respectfully decline to comment on the artists mentioned within the thread.

The two guys that I work with most often couldn't possibly be more different... I've worked with the drummer in my pop band off and on since 1976... he's what I'd call a "stylist". The guy doesn't even have a kit at his house. He plays whenever the band rehearses (not that often), gigs, or records, and that's it, period. However, the guy has soaked up so much music in his lifetime, and has chops to spare, that he seems to have an 'on/off' switch, as to delivering the goods. That said, I've never heard the guy play the same song once. His whole deal is improv. He pulls it off because he's friggin' good. It's funny, we'll hold "arrangement rehearsals" prior to cutting a round of tunes, but all bets are off as to what the guy will actually play. That's why that band doesn't cut "live". The arranger in me is occasionally driven to distraction by this, but I have to remind myself that it's a "band", not a studio project with session players for hire. Sometimes it's a bit of a trick to drag the right groove for the tune out of the guy, but it's worth the effort. His parts absolutely make the song; he has the ability to make a simple snare pop sound like "himself"; he's probably the most gifted hi-hat player I've ever heard; and for the life of me, I'll never understand why he's so opposed to providing a bell ride on the quarters during a refrain. "Style", I suppose.

The other guy that I regularly work with is a walking encyclopedia of drums and percussion. You want swing, zydeco, rock 'n roll, country two step, shuffle, waltz, "making soup"? On the beat, ahead of the beat, behind the beat? Peter Erskine, Charlie Watts, Steve Gadd, Jeff Porcaro, Ringo, Simon Kirke, Copeland, Peart, Zigaboo, Bonzo, Terry Bozzio, Simon Phillips, Buddy Rich? No problem, the guy's got it down cold, it's uncanny. He can wing it with the best, but he's all about the song. Once he's learned a tune, that's it, that's the way it'll sound. Dude's a Rock of Gibralter, probably the most anal-retentive musician I know, and certainly one of the best drummers I've been fortunate enough to work with.

There ya go, $.02.

i saw an eagles dvd lately and the guys could have played a bit more "loose" in my opinion.
other that that i like to hear it played with competence, improvised with the landmarks sticking out so to say.

I usually *can't* do the thing note for note on whatever song it is, but I try to something that sounds familiar on it, at least...a couple of signature licks or whatever but the rest is usually up to me.

Hi, welcome to the club, we're right in the middle of a membership drive...lol


if it's a certain part in a song that just blows me away, and I don't know what they were doing then yeah I would like to see them do it live, but I like just seeing them explore, noodle, whatever you want to call it....

Speaking from my position as a guitar player...
I play a Thinline or '52 RI plugged into a '72 Pro Reverb. I rarely use my overdrive pedal or any other effects. So I can't really sound like a Les Paul, Strat, ES-335, or (insert other guitar name here). My tones are stritcly Telecaster.

Add to that, I don't have the insight and technique of David Gilmour, Danny Gatton, Albert Collins, Django Reinhardt, Fast Eddie Clark, Tony Iommi, Trey Anastasio, Trey Azagthoth, Paco De Lucia, Mantias DiPlata, Jimmy Herring, Jerry Garcia, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Jimmy Vivino, etc.........

I cannot effectivly play a solo EXACTLY like it appears on a recording, so why would I want to make an obvious muck of a great song. So I'll quote the melodies and keep it in the same thematic neighborhood as the song/solo/part, but play it as thought it's being played by Chris Ragan (that's me) on a simple Telecaster-cord-tube amp setup.

As far as when I go see a band.....
I want to hear something I can't get on their CDs. My favorite bands to catch live are PHISH (9 times, and no more :( ), Gov. Mule, Derek Trucks Band, The Allman Brothers, and other assorted Post-Classic-Rock bands (a.k.a. Jambands). All of those bands mix it up with lots of covers and extended segments based upon audience reactions. These bands stray from their own recorded versions, and that's a big part of what appeals to me about their music.

Sometimes it would be nice to see a band hit it note for note. In '94 when I saw Pink Floyd, Dave Gilmour took liberties with some solos, he can do that, it's his band. But he did do solos on things like Comfortably Numb and Wish You Were Here note for note, which still sent shivvers down my spine.

Joel - you know where my heart is at on this one. I never play the same thing once. :shock:

When I first started playing with bands in jr high and high school, I was too lazy to learn solos note for note, and I've never had any formal music training, so I have no idea how to write out a solo in script form.

For a long time, I thought this was my weak link. So about 10 years ago, when I founded my first band whose goal was to "make it big", I thought I needed to conquer this percieved deficiency, and thoroughly write and properly document all of my solos and leads, and play them all the same way at every rehearsal and gig.

I did this for about 6 months. We cut an album and I wrote every note of it in pre-production, and nailed it all during tracking.

After a couple of months on the road, playing these songs note-for-note-for-note, the entire band got bored. So we decided that we all needed to improv....and listen to each other better.

We did that, and the music began to evolve, and improve. We found changes that sounded better. We were able to make the set flow better. Songs began to breathe more, and really take on a life of their own.

So my new mentality is this - rehearse as little as possible. The magic happens when you're not sure what to expect.

As far as going to see established original bands play, I like to see something new every time I see the same band, as long as they are improving. Something that "erks" me is bands like the current ensomble of Lynard Skynard....who are mostly just a coverband of the real Lynard Skynard. They all play the same exact song every-single-time, for years and years and years. Seems to be little creativity there anymore.

Stewart, possibly one of my favorite musicians of all-time, is a great improviser. He never plays the same part twice, and each time is absolutely inspiring and incredible to hear/watch. To me, he's the closest thing to a melodic drummer playing untuned percussion--if indeed that's possible--as I've ever heard.


YEAH! YEAH! YEAH! YEAS! YES! YeS!
Have you seen that early gig on VH1 after the first album with the lame tv studio audience?
Stewart is the man!

Joel - you know where my heart is at on this one. I never play the same thing once. :shock:

(M)y...mentality is this - rehearse as little as possible. The magic happens when you're not sure what to expect.

As far as going to see established original bands play, I like to see something new every time I see the same band, as long as they are improving. Something that "erks" me is bands like the current ensomble of Lynard Skynard....who are mostly just a coverband of the real Lynard Skynard. They all play the same exact song every-single-time, for years and years and years. Seems to be little creativity there anymore.

Oh, I know you well, Mr. Cullom; might I say that playing along side you is one of the greatest musical pleasures I've had up to this point in my life--and I sincerely mean that, br'ah. :D

Man, if only you, Bruce Gust, and I could start a band. Should I ever hit the lottery, my plan is to hire you guys for the rest of your lives at a salary (with full benefits, of course) that you won't be able to refuse. We'll groove our way into a market share. :lol:


Stewart, possibly one of my favorite musicians of all-time, is a great improviser. He never plays the same part twice, and each time is absolutely inspiring and incredible to hear/watch. To me, he's the closest thing to a melodic drummer playing untuned percussion--if indeed that's possible--as I've ever heard.


YEAH! YEAH! YEAH! YEAS! YES! YeS!
Have you seen that early gig on VH1 after the first album with the lame tv studio audience?
Stewart is the man!

Yes--The Police in the early days! I've seen it! I first saw it back in the '80s on the U.S. cable channel, Nickelodeon; this was before Nickelodeon primarily targeted children viewers. It was shown as a Nickelodeon "Special Delivery" episode. Very cool!

The guys kick ass in that taped-for-TV gig, lame studio audience notwithstanding. Sting is wearing that green jumpsuit of old and playing that natural Precision Bass with the fretless maple neck. :wink:

Joel

Was that the one that was taped in Germany?

It's an English show called "the Beat Club"(?). Often on Vh1 classics they have individual videos from this tv program featuring Stevie Wonder, Bowie etc doing live in studio stuff. Very period at times, often amusing. The best vid i have ever seen is Bowie playing with Adrian Belew in 72' and doing TAPPING with his pick at the end of his crazy solo. Belew is too cool.

I don't think there's anything I play note for note the same way twice. Hwoever, there are certain songs where I try to capture more of the flavor of the original.

If you want to hear the part note for note, buy the CD.

One of the best compliments I've ever had was when someone came up to a member of my band after a gig and angrily said, 'I thought your guitar player was pretty good until you did Rock Around The Clock and I realised that he was faking it to backing tracks.':roll:
That's one of the songs where I try really hard to get it note perfect. We used to do Sultans Of Swing and that was the same. Mark Knofler can ad lib it live since its his song, but with a cover band everyone in the audience will almost unconsciously expect the guitar licks to be as on the recording and you look a right prat if you flub them.
But with most songs I improvise a lot. With one of our songs...an old Irish showband song called The Hucklebuck...I'm always messing with the solo. Last night I did a verse of Wipe Out, and other times I've done the Batman theme. Other nights it's part of the Love Struck Baby solo. Whatever comes to mind.
But it didn't really have a guitar solo to begin with so I can mess around. With songs with set recorded solos I tend to either get them close to the original or else I improvise them in the general flavour of the original. It depends on how memorable the thing is. As I mentioned above, Rock Around The Clock and Sultans have well known guitar licks. Another Brick In The Wall is another. Crazy Little Thing Called Love is another. I try to get them as close as I can. But with something like La Bamba I may start the solo the way people are used to and then wander off into an impro.
But most of the night I'm making it all up.

If you can nail the last 4 bars of the solo on rock around the clock then your a better man than I !

If you can nail the last 4 bars of the solo on rock around the clock then your a better man than I !

Cheers.
That's the bit that's always challenging. Sometimes I get it right and sometimes not. I don't find fast runs easy and I have to really concentrate to get both hands coordinated. It sometimes comes out a mush.