restoring a narrow panel princeton

Been having this thing for years. Last time I powered it up it ten years ago it smoked some, most likely a power cap. They need changing, two leaked out.

Other than that what else should I do to it?

I have always wanted to restore an amp with originality in mind, but the amp still has to be up to par for full throttle playing. I want to change as little as possible on the amp, only things that would be necessary to safely play it without getting hurt of destroying it. I also want to change the speaker. As far as I know the original is fine, but I want to put it away and use a newer excact spec replacement.

I want to use a NOS 6v6, what about the others? I dont really like using NOS tubes because I simply dont like paying more for something that usually is a gamble these days.

I also am going to put a original looking replacement three prong cord and either find an original handle or put a replacement on it. I need a handle.

THIS AMP WILL BE PLAYED. Amplifiers are not allowed to take up space in my home with out me being able to play them! And I will be cranking it to 12 in honor of Spinal Tap.. What good is a knob that goes to 12 if your not going to use it?

EDIT: I forgot to mention its the amp with the 6SC7 preamp tube according to the chart. I think it has a 12AX7 in it now, and somebody wrote 12ax7 next to 6SC7 on the tube chart. I cannot read the stamp on the chart.

Here are some shots of it...

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/dragonbat13/DSCN0404.jpg
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/dragonbat13/DSCN0403.jpg
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/dragonbat13/DSCN0405.jpg
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/dragonbat13/DSCN0406.jpg

dragonbat13, that is a nice looking amp there. IT is not a narrow panel, though. IT is a wide panel.....5D2...and likely is a 1954 amp. The 'D' indicates a 1954 circuit....with a 9-pin 12AX7 in place of the octal 6SC7 that was used in the 5C2.
Fender would cross out the 6SC7 and write in the 12AX7....can't throw a tube chart away over a minor detail like that, right? The 5E2---1955 schematic, came out in 1955 in the narrow panel cab.
I would look at a Weber Vintage SEries Alnico speaker to use in there after the recap. I agree it is a good idea to preserve the orignal speaker's cone by storing it.

HA I knew these were earlier, just had the names backwards.. What makes it called wide panel anyway? One thing though, it has fenders business marketing of low cost and using up whats on the shelf... The preamp socket has an adapter to go from the octal socket to the nine pin.

When I first got it in about 1993 it played fine. What an awesome amp. Thats why I dont want to replace any more than I have to so it has the same tone.

You're between a rock and a hard place with these old amps. See those brown Astron electrolytics? Look closely. See the "317" code? That means they were manufactured the 17th week of 1953.

Capacitor technology was primitive back then.

Those are close to 60 years old.

The trick is to find new caps that are close to the right size and certainly the right value. Carefully pick apart the shotgun shell roll crimp on the original brown ones. Slide off the paper shells. Build up your new caps with masking tape until they're a good fit in the original shells. Carefully tweeze your roll crimp back together.

Alternatively:

Decide which side of your shells are going to show. Carefully slit the shells with a utility knife. Use a fresh blade but don't slip. You can glue the old shells on your new caps seam side down. Do a tidy job and you'll have to look really close to see the seam.

If I really want to get tricky I can cut open one end of the original cap and hollow out the spent guts. New caps are much smaller than old so I can stuff new ones in the old cans. Epoxy an aluminum disc on the - end of the cap. Betcha you couldn't tell I messed with them no matter how hard you looked.

If you want to practice on some junk vintage electrolytics I'm sure I can find some for you to mess with.

I'd test those original Astron firecrackers but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

I could go through big bins of old capacitors and find a few that by some miracle are still good. That's how you restore someting like this, buy a lot of old parts to find a few good ones.

There's a reason these are worth a few bucks in good shape.

You can pick up NOS to GOOD condition USA made 5y3 and 6v6 tubes for the same price or less than the current new ones from overseas.

I would like to cut open the old filter caps and slide new ones in. Is there any type of nonsense about destroying bad but original caps on this amp? In any case what I would probably do is find some other caps that are the same and cut those up, using their shells instead. I had heard of this before, and am kinda wanting to go that route.

As far as everything else, I am going to change all caps that have high voltages out with the exact same values. I want to buy an old heathkit cap tester also, so If I could measure what the current caps have drifted to I would try to go with that value.

Another thing is, I can put in modern stuff until I find a good NOS replacement for anything. Thats probably what I will do.

I wouldn't torment myself over the "exact same values" for the filters. Schematic shows 8, 8 and 8. Yours are clearly 8, 8 and 8. Probably nuthin', nuthin' and nuthin' now. :lol:

I have 10uf / 450v GSCs that are tiny. They would slide right inside the old ones with wiggle room. Same with the 25/25, new ones are tiny.

A 16uf for the first filter wouldn't hurt a thing.

Wide panel versus narrow panel....look at the top of the front of the amp.
That top piece is about 3/8 the size of your amp's top piece on a narrow panel. muchxs might have seen a factory am pwith an adapter socket, but I haven't had that experience. I thought you meant that the socket was a noval socket formt he fatory. In the case of an adapted socket, then one starts looking at the particulars of the circuit to understand what circuit you have there. There are definite differences between the 5C2 and the 5D2.

I just thought of something, while this goes totally against what I was wanting to do, it may be the best route.

What about replacing the entire board? That way the leads could be disconnected from the board or the sockets, leaving everything in one piece. The reason is because I have to change all the expensive stuff anyway, and I am sure that a resistor or two is on its last leg. With this option I could take the entire board and the speaker and put them away. I read some other threads and one stated "how often are you going to have the back off anyway? And thats a good point. Instead of cutting up original caps I could use new stuff on a new board. I have a feeling that I would enjoy the amp more that way.

The rock and a hard place mentioned also includes this factor. If this restoration is done right not only do you have one of the most legendary tone monsters to play, but if you decided to sell it, it is worth as much as a new Fender EC deluxe maybe more. If done wrong the amp will drop in value like a rock.
You are fortunate to have drawn the attention of just the people who know how to do this right.
What you have imho may not be the holy grail, but it's close.

I just thought of something, while this goes totally against what I was wanting to do, it may be the best route.

What about replacing the entire board? That way the leads could be disconnected from the board or the sockets, leaving everything in one piece. The reason is because I have to change all the expensive stuff anyway, and I am sure that a resistor or two is on its last leg. With this option I could take the entire board and the speaker and put them away. I read some other threads and one stated "how often are you going to have the back off anyway? And thats a good point. Instead of cutting up original caps I could use new stuff on a new board. I have a feeling that I would enjoy the amp more that way.

Hmmm... antique dilemma!

If you replace the guts in that beat up old cab, it'll sound great and look old. Very cool! :cool:

But what if you damage the original box?! (gasp!) ... or have to mod the original chassis to mount a modern board?! ... or bend the prongs of that gorgeous original power cord?! :wink:

Hehe! Just joking, OK? :grin:

There's no end to 'preserving' a vintage amp, except to find old exact replacements. Then you can't have fun! Actually, I really like your idea, Dragonbat. Outwardly a beat up old Princeton, that sounds like a new one, maybe even better than the original. Way cool! :cool:

(... waiting for the onslaught of those who clearly remember what the original Princeton sounded like with maybe 104VAC at the wall socket :wink:)

((come to think of it, I have 104VAC at the wall socket here, today! I can get REAL vintage tone au natural!))

Have fun playing that beauty!

If all you want is a great sounding amp, you could have any amp you want custom built and have plenty money left over for other things, like guitars.

If you had a civil war sabre you found at a swap meet, would you take it home and polish off all the patina?

Again if all you want is a great amp, sell this one to someone who is willing to pay for it's vintage collectors value and then buy whatever you want.

Yeah, clearly those caps are gone.

What a sweet amp though. If I were you I would have a good amp guy (or gal) do a complete cap job on that (with your brand of choice) and then keep the old ones should you ever sell it. Keep the cord too should you (wisely) upgrade to 3 prongs.

Grab a new handle from Mojotone and you're off.

I've got a little stock of old (but good) Tung Sol 5y3 tubes that fit the bill for your recto, and ya might be able to talk be out of one for a 10 spot ;)

It seems that the general thoughts are to do a complete cap job, and throw the old ones in a bag in the box with the speaker. Now for the real fun, what NEW caps should I replace them with?

I am not a fan of paper in oil installed in amps that are supposed to sound dirty. I did see those jupiter clones. I have also always wanted to try some mallory 150s but I dont know if this is the right place for those.. Orange drops? Paper/Film?

What I really need to know is what capacitor construction style I should use.

What about Filter caps? I used to swear by sprague atoms, but I dont know if they would fit (Never worked on an amp this small), and also dont know about availability. Usually atoms are larger than most others.

I am not gonna say cost no object, but I wouldnt mind spending extra coin on something nice.

Just so everybody doesnt have to worry about me messing up this amp, here are some pics of a cap job I did on my SF twin about five years ago. Still going strong, and I have gotten MUCH better with eyelet boards since then (and PCB for that matter).

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/dragonbat13/DSCN0391.jpg
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/dragonbat13/DSCN0390.jpg

dragonbat, since you have posted 'what if' concerning this old FEnder and then posted the pics of your 'recap' on the TR, I'll share my opinons....fwiw, right?
IF you want a new amp, build one. IF you want this vintage amp to function, then do as little as possible to get it sounding good. Imho, that starts wiht fresh electrolytics and general service. IF...IF other components like tone and/or coupling caps or resitors are out of spec, then replace ONLY the components that are out of spec. That way, the amp stays as original as possible to make it functional. Replacing the board would not be an option for me...unless the board itself had gone conductive and the amp would not function with the orignal board. IF you replace the board, all of the solder connections will have been made non-original and a lot of 'vintage value' will have been lost, imho.
As to your recap job on that SFTR....
Imho, that amp has been compromised regarding vintage value. Why? Because a 'recap' does not include replacement of ALL of the tone and coupling caps on the board. Those ORange drops are not a part of a recap. AGain, imho, the only tone and/or coupling caps that should be replaced are those that are out of spec. A recap should however include replacing that electrolytic bias cap. And...there are at least 3 electrolytic capacitors in that circuti that are original that imho shuld be replaced during a proper recap of the electrolytics.
IF I were to be offered your SFTR and another TR from the same year that had had no service or had had only the electrolytic caps replaced, I give more for the other amp. What has been done to your amp is about half of the
'work' that was done on the BFTR and the BF Vibroverb amps that I have posted about in the Amp Forum as examples of the 'buyer beware' situations when buying vintage amps. Your amp may serve you well, but its value has been decreased, imho. Repalcement of electrolytics is a 'normal' and expected service, imo. Wholesale replacement of other components is not 'normal', ime.

Uh, yea. That SF was given to me by my father. The caps in the can were all relpaced to get rid of the severe hum. SilverFaced twins dont loose near as much of their value because all of the lame, undesirable blue caps were changed out. They loose their value because the weigh 80 pounds. If you ever do see a a fender amp in a good amp collection I am pretty sure its not going to be the SFTW. I already had the amp, will never sell it, and after I got done with what I did the amp sounds incredibly better. If you dont like the caps you for sure wont like the DPDT switches I installed in the normal channels bright switch. I just posted that pic to show that I have experience with a solder gun.

BUT, a mid 50s tweed princeton and a silverface twin reverb are different animals altogether. I know that changing anything out in that amp, INCLUDING THE FILTER CAPS, will reduce its value. If you want to talk about amp collectors then they are going to pay more for the original filter caps. But most guitar players would rather play the thing. If thats the case then the filter caps just have to be changed.

If you will notice so far in this thread people have noted several different things about what to do with this amp. Some are recommending changing anything with high voltage, some like the whole board idea, some say sell it ( I really cant, its a family amp, sorry I forgot to mention that). Thats what I wanted, different opinions about what to do.

I knew when I posted the twin up this would happen, even though I clearly stated that I have gotten alot better at working on these amps. I just wanted to show that I have done more than change out a guitar jack, OK? AFWIW, I didnt know five years ago that the caps mentioned needed to be changed, but they havent failed and the amps sounds great.

I am sorry for the hostility in this post, but it seemed rather crummy to slam my workhorse twin that I have had for twenty+ years. If that wasnt your intent than I apologize.

Also, If you ask me changing out the board would be the best route to keeping its value up. The only thing that would really be changed from factory is the solder joints from the flying leads.

If I came across an amp that had the Filter caps changed out, or an amp here the whole board was replaced and the original was still intact sitting right next to the original speaker in a box I would buy the one with the new board.

"lame undesirable blue caps"??? Other than the yellow Astrons, these are the most valuable vintage caps in the market for FEnder amps. These are what were ripped out' of the "67 TR and the '74 Vibroverb that I mentioned....and they were taken out for the value.
The only amps.....tweed, blonde, BF, SF.... any Fender amp...that will lose value with a change of electrolytics will be a dead mint museum piece that noone expects to use anyway. For amps that are going to be played, changing electrolytics is like changing spark plugs in a matching number Corvette. IT has to be done if you are going to utilize it. Making wholesale changes like stripping a board is like changing out the engine in that matching numbers Corvette, imho. That is where the value is...not in the spark plugs...or the e-caps.
I am sorry that you got upset. I prefaced my observations with a staement that I was responding onl y because that you had asked for opinions. IF you don't find my opinions to be useful, please just ignore them. I don't see a need for hostility whether oen disagrees with the observations or not. MY observations about vintage value are based on experience...not opinons, though. I am happy that you have a good workhorse TR there. You might want to change that bias cap at some point, though. (;^)
Anytime a board has been removed, a knowledgable buyer will know it and will question the originality of everything there. But then....I have seen some many compromised amps sold to unsuspecting buyers in the last few years for sometimes more than twice what they are actually worth that it seems that it might not matter what is done to these things. One can eventually find a buyer who doesn't know for what they are putting down their money.
But....thsi '64 Vibroverb here should be worth somethign just over $4K....and I would estimate its value in the market to a knowledgable buyer to be at themost $2500.....as a player becasue that is all it is despite its near mint cosmetic condition. That is $1200 less that was paid for it buy the fellow who didni't do his homework.....and who has made his last personal purchase in the vintage Fender amp market becasue of the duplicity involved in the last two he has bought.
IMe, what one doesn't know can actually hurt one.
Have a good day, dragon.....didn't mean to upset you.

The caps that were replaced by the orange drops weren't blue mallory caps, I would not have changed those. They were blue Paktron. The caps on the normal channel/right side of the board are original.

So I am going to change out the filter caps on the main board, change tubes, handle, and a three prong power cord. Thats it, nothing else.

Which brand does everybody recommend for this? I would like to use something comparable to Atoms, or use atoms if they would fit.

Thanks for the heads up on the Paktrons....I didn't know what year SF we were discussing.

So I am going to change out the filter caps on the main board, change tubes, handle, and a three prong power cord. Thats it, nothing else.


A perfect start and a hearty +1. Plus you mentioned removing the speaker and storing, +1 there too. Also all the general stuff like spraying the pots and scrubbing and re-tensioning the jacks and sockets. Just bag all those parts and keep 'em, some über nerd (who am I kidding, myself included!) will appreciate that down the road.
I promise though that Wally rules and was only trying to be helpful and not mean. That's the drawback of the internetz!!
Such a cool old amp!! Jealous! >_<

I apologize to wally for getting so bent out of shape.. The simple story on the twin was that when my dad gave it to me he said "dont ever mess with it". Well after he died, about a year later I plugged it in and tried to play it, total crap. So I learned how to fix it, and put a cheap blackface kit in it, so much better. And that was how I got started working on tube amps and electronics in general. The last thing I did was reflash an RC car remote.

I looked on ebay some and these amps, while expensive, are not going for that much. I think the most I saw was around 500 with a day or two left, so I am thinking at the most 800. Not enough for me to sell anyway.

But I am going to get some filter caps that will fit in some other old capacitor labels and glue them in. I think that would be cool.

One other thing for the speaker that I forgot to mention is that the output transformer is mounted to it. I dont know what to do about that.