Fuzz/Envelope Filter Interaction: Specific Scenario (11 Gauge?)

I've been pulling my hair out trying to figure this out. Of course, the Internet is full of geniuses, every one of whom has the right answer and no two of which agree. So, I decided to post this rather tiresome question in the hope that somebody with more knowledge of the actual electronics involved might be willing to help me out...

I'm in the process of completely re-doing my bass pedal board. I will be using a Frantone Lo-Tone Classic Fuzz, a Source Audio Bass Envelope Filter, an EXAR Bass Compressor, and an EXAR Bass Flanger. Based on experience with guitar pedals, it seems to me that the order should be:

Envelope Filter > Compressor > Fuzz > Flanger

However, the Frantone Classic Fuzz is a germanium-based fuzz, which I am given to understand should preferably be the first thing in the chain, as germanium fuzzes like to see the load from the guitar's pickups. This is my dilemma...

The Source Audio Bass Envelope Filter (BEF) is not a true-bypass pedal; all of the other pedals in my lineup *are* true bypass. According to the Source Audio Web site (http://www.sourceaudio.net/techtalk/question/joseph-asks/), the ideal situation is to have a buffered pedal like the BEF first in the chain. But, that means that I'll be placing a buffer *before* a germanium fuzz, which a lot of folks seem to think takes away from the sound of the fuzz.

I don't know if the Classic Fuzz is any relation to a Fuzz Face circuit, which is the circuit most known to have issues with being behind buffered pedals.

(By the way, I am waiting for the two EXAR pedals to be delivered, so I can't really wire everything up and try it out right now. In the meantime, I'm driving myself crazy thing about it.)

So, can anybody tell me if putting the Envelope Filter, which is essentially a Wah, before the germanium fuzz pedal should or will have any detrimental effect on the sound of the fuzz? This is not a crazy fuzz to begin with, but I absolutely love the sound I get out of it. It is Jack Bruce from Disraeli Gears, straight up! I don't want to lose that tone!

I'm thinking this question may be best proferred to one of the pedal gurus here, like 11 Gauge or some of the other very knowldgeable people that take the time and have the patience to answer questions from those of us who are ignorant of the ins and outs of exactly how the pedals we love actually work. And, I'd like to thank them in advance for any contribution they might make to this thread.

So, a buffered pedal before a fuzz pedal -- Yeah or nay?

(And, that assumes that the BEF is buffered. I know it's not true bypass; does that automatically mean that it's buffered?)

Thanks in advance -- Any help would be appreciated!

Buffers are fantastic to have in your chain. They do a lot of good, but sometimes they can throw off finicky pedals, like germanium fuzz makers. Ideally, you'd want your buffer to follow these pedals. That therein lies the problem because your envelope will want to be first for the best possible tracking.

If a buffers is messing with the germanium, you'll be able to hear it straight away if you give it a little test. That said, your envelope filter should really go first. Maybe you could get a small true bypass looper to bring it in and out as needed.

Another scenario... you might like the sound of the buffer hitting the germanium. So give that a thought too. Maybe.

However, the Frantone Classic Fuzz is a germanium-based fuzz, which I am given to understand should preferably be the first thing in the chain, as germanium fuzzes like to see the load from the guitar's pickups. This is my dilemma...

The Lo-Tone uses germanium clipping diodes, and not germanium transistors.

Fran must have been trying to do a "soft clip for bass" variation on the Big Muff, and germanium diodes are a popular method.

Germanium diodes in a Muff became a kind of big deal in the early 90's, most notably with David Gilmour using a Cornish Soft Sustain - both a SS-1 for earlier parts of the process towards recording of The Division Bell (in '93), and then the tweaked SS-2 in the latter part (actual recording sessions, '93-'94).

...I believe the SS-3 was made by Cornish, too, but Gilmour seems to have stuck with the SS-2 from Pulse up to the live stuff in '05. I kinda lost track after that.

Anyway, a digression of sorts (sort of), so I'll try to reel this one back in...

The Big Muff-type circuit definitely has a lower input impedance because of the bipolar transistors, and even silicon bipolars suffer the same fate as germanium units.

...So this need not really even be a germanium transistor thing...

But - a Big Muff typically has a pretty big series input resistor - usually 39K. This offsets the effect quite a bit.

And - the clipping diodes offset the effect even more, as the Big Muff isn't really known for it's cleanup abilities compared to something like a Fuzz Face.

And - this particular pedal uses germanium clipping diodes, which start to clip/compress your signal even sooner than the original silicon Big Muff types.

So - putting anything buffered in front will have some effect, but it might be negligible. I generally don't like anything buffered in front of one, but that is for six string uses.

Also - a buffer may actually be beneficial with some rigs. All of the Cornish Muff variations built for Gilmour feature buffered bypass TTBOMK.

IME, it audibly gets a bit brighter, and that is like an "anti-Muff" trait to me.

So again, the bottom line is for YOU to experiment and find out if you prefer one or the other, or if it even matters.

But this "generic germanium issue" seems to pop up from time to time, and it gets confusing because:

- it could be an issue of germanium diodes vs. germanium transistors, with the diodes being a non-issue

- whether or not certain types of fuzzes like a FF use germ or silicon does not matter - it is the bipolar transistor part that is important

One of the biggest confusing germanium issues of late has been the Pigtronix pedal that inserts the term in its name, and it's a single germanium clipping diode that allows for that. What is kinda humorous is that the germanium diode is in series with a silicon diode and a LED in the OD and not compressor part of the circuit, so it gives the complete opposite effect of just a single germanium unit on its own. The TS9DX uses a pair of LED clipping diodes in the "hot" mode for this - you may have experienced the effect that they have if you've tried that pedal.

Unless the manufacturer goes to really specific lengths to explain exactly what is going on because of their targeted component choices that I suggest that folks just experiment on their own to set up the rig for their needs. Even the new MXR Classic 108 is a FF variant with a buffer switch built in to potentially make it more flexible at different spots in a pedal chain, with the presumption that it will come after a buffered wah or something.

And, there it is, in language even a novice like me can understand -- Thanks ever so much!

...in language...a novice...can understand...

Excellent - always my goal to try and present it in a way that isn't techie geek verbose!