Is my acoustic ruined?

Hi, everyone. I've received this vintage Silvertone for free from a friend. It was missing a couple strings so I just replaced those, played the guitar a bit and then the guitar has sat in the corner for a couple years.

THIS IS MY FIRST ACOUSTIC I'd like to state... so go easy on me lol.

I recently just got it out again to learn some acoustic songs and put a fresh set of strings on it. The guitar sounds really good actually. I decided to start doing some research on my guitar and notice ones that look similar to mine are classical nylon string guitars! Mainly by the headstock design (I'm a newb i know...). and now looking at the bridge I can see where marks where the nylon strings would have wrapped around and been tied... also the saddle isn't compensated (i just figured it was a low end guitar when i got it, I was going to figure out how/install a universal bone compensated saddle...)

I bet this guitar has had steel strings for a VERY long time and I just restrung it AGAIN with steel strings... I imagine it's had steel strings for over a decade or more.... The bridge obviously hasn't ripped off and is showing no signs of doing so. There is a decal on the neck that says "Steel Reinforced Neck" if that means anything...

What do you think I should do? It sounds really nice and upon further inspection, someone had filed down the saddle (rather crudely) to lower the action and I must say it plays nice with no buzzing. Now, the intonation sucks... but I was just going to make a universal compensated bone saddle work (when I thought it was a steel string guitar)

This is a low budget guitar, I so far have $10 invested in it (steel re-string...) and I've taking a liking to it, so much so that I've made a pickguard for it out of a vinyl record that turned out really nice. I really like the look and feel of this thing.

So... should I keep it like this and intonate the saddle? get another classical saddle and restring it as nylon? or is thing already structurally ruined by the steel strings?

Any input would be great, I hope I can save it.

here are some pics.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/elcam/IMG_5782.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/elcam/IMG_5788.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/elcam/IMG_5784.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/elcam/IMG_5786.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/elcam/IMG_5785.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/elcam/IMG_5789.jpg

Looks like a nylon string guitar , look at the style of nut .

try these on it http://www.zzounds.com/item--MRTM130

Everything I see points to it being nylon string. Is the fretboard flat or radiused?
But off it has survived for years tuned to pitch with steel strings, you probably don't need to worry. Some of those older cheap nylon string acoustics were built with very thick tops and bracing. I might switch to nylon, but if it shows no signs of damage, stick with steel if you want!

Steel strings!

The tuners are just plain wrong for nylon classical stings, those have larger diameter "bone" (plastic) posts.

The bridge however does look superficially like a classical until you notice the recess at the back, a classical is square and straight down to the soundboard (it has to be to get the knot to grip). That recess is for ball end strings.

And then the "steel reinforced neck" is a dead give-away - a concert classic neither wants nor needs a heavy truss rod.

I think what you have there is a "folk" guitar, and this one is for steel strings.
It can probably run either. I have something similar but not in such good shape.

I have to disagree with Jeffrs, I'm certain it was designed for nylon. It looks like it has held up remarkably well. Slip a classical set on and go!

One more for silk and steel.

I believe Jefrs is correct. There were some Japanese made cheap guitars that came out in the 1960s that were overbuilt for nylon strings and I think they were intended to be nylon or steel. They were beginner instruments and not especially well built for their sound.

I don't think it is ruined at all (except for the saddle).
If the top isn't bellied up behind the bridge or caved in, in front of it.
I think you could use a set of light guage steel and be OK.

I believe Jefrs is correct. There were some Japanese made cheap guitars that came out in the 1960s that were overbuilt for nylon strings and I think they were intended to be nylon or steel. They were beginner instruments and not especially well built for their sound.


The other way to check is to look for X bracing. Some cheap nylon classics do have this but the construction is intended for metal strings.

The other clue for me is that it is a Silvertone.

Almost certainly 60s beginners jobbie, what became known as a "folk" guitar, looks like a classic but has steel/bronze/brass strings.

I'm coming to the conclusion that this is a Nylon string guitar.... It has a flat fretboard radius, nylon style tuners, an non-compensated high action saddle, markings showing it did have nylon strings wrapped around and tied at the bridge... looking at it closer, it does look like the soundboard is warping a little under the tension... Even if it was designed for both, I think it was more intended for nylon.

So thank for the help everyone, the saddle loose in the bridge, so i slid it out and flipped it over, there are tiny little marks where strings sat, so this person flipped the saddle over and carved away.

For now, I'm going to flip the saddle back over to it's original position without the carved grooves and restring it with nylon strings and just continue to play and have fun with it.

What would you recommend for strings? Something a little bright and a steel sounding as possible lol. I wont be playing classical music on it...

Thanks!

It does not have nylon style tuners, they are 1/4-in diameter metal, completely wrong for nylon.
Nylon tuners have to be a larger diameter because the nylon stretches an unbelievable amount. Nor does a nylon have to have a high bridge saddle.

Martin slot-head (random pic grab)
http://www.richtonemusic.co.uk/Data/Product_Images/MARTIN00015SMb.jpg

Ok, that one has buttons on the bridge but they do not have to have that.
The recessed groove behind the bridge on yours is for ball-end strings (you can get ball-end nylon).

A nylon classic has a very light body like an eggshell, a truss rod would over-balance it, the nylon string tension does not require a truss rod.
You have a steel truss rod.

If you want to fit nylon, you can. I suggest high-tension or it will be practically silent. You could try the Thomastik-Infeld silk and steel rope Classic-S.

Apparently the 26952 was also available as a peg-head and button bridge
Note the pickguard, nylon classics don't have those ...
The other clue is the narrow neck, nylon have a wide neck for fingerstyle.
I'm afraid your neck is warped, twisted and raising action on the bass side, you may be able to compensate with a new saddle. Cure is to remove frets and plane the fretboard true after resetting the neck join. But a re-fret job is like £200
The need for a lower and lower saddle is because of "neck hump" where age and string tension has pulled the neck join towards the body. When you run out of saddle, the cure is to knock the dovetail out and re-set it.

http://www.silvertoneworld.net/prices_images_TWO/sept_2010/curren206.jpg
http://www.silvertoneworld.net/prices_images_TWO/sept_2010/curren210.jpg

jefrs, you do have a good argument and I'm starting to agree with you, i'm just worried because I see some slight warping going on near the bridge area of the soundboard and the center of the bridge has a tiny gap on the backside like it's slightly lifting off the soundboard (could just be because it was a cheaply made low end guitar of the time)

I'm running light steel stings on it right now. I just don't want to make things worse. I really wish these guitars were more popular and well documented in their time....

Either way I'm keeping it, and if stays steel it NEEDS to be intonated.

Regardless, throw a set of "silk and steel" on it and it will be fine.

This is a really good question as the bridge looks classical but the tuners look like a steelstrung guitar. The slotted headstock really means nothing as those can be found on a lot of different instruments.

I would put some Silk and Steel on it as stated above. Even most old gut-string Martins can handle them w/o a problem.

Ok guys, i'll try some "silk and steel" strings tomorrow. Should I still try an intonated saddle? How do these strings feel to play tension wise and what height should I run for action?

i'm just worried because I see some slight warping going on near the bridge area of the soundboard and the center of the bridge has a tiny gap on the backside like it's slightly lifting off the soundboard

Inconclusive, this happened to my Seagull steel string acoustic, and I had a tech remove the bridge and glue it back on. It's happening again now because the whole top is bulging in the center. .. :cry:

The silk & steel should be lower tension than pure steel since the core is not metal, but higher tension than classical strings

Lol what a complicating guitar I have. BTW did I mention I love this forum! Soo much knowledge and input, I love it.

The reason it need some serious intonation is because the neck has moved towards the heel.

The reason the bridge is lifting is because of its age and, lets be honest, it's a cheap guitar. But this is fortunate in a way because it means you will be able to remove the bridge and shift it back where it needs to be now. New saddle!
The belly bulge is also normal for its age but can be dialled out with a lower saddle, you get a new bone saddle and file the back down to size.
Intonation for steel is different to nylon, it's the stretch.

Me, I'd be looking at knocking the neck out and resetting the join.
It is easier than it sounds. Hot palette knife, some courage, and a mallet.

That is a steel string guitar. Lots of those style/era guitars had flat fretboards. I have a similar one from Sears. The tuners, the pickguard and the steel reinforced neck are the confirmation.

...that is an inexpensive "folk" guitar from the mid-60's I would wager...had the same thing, except branded for Woolworths...paid $24 or so for it in 1966. Came with steel strings, unadjustable steel reinforced neck.

"Silk and steel" may prolong the agony a little bit, but you have a 46-year-old guitar that was a poor student model to begin with at that time and it has done well to weather so many years as it has done. When you hear talk of the "cheese-cutter" guitars we learned on back then, you are looking at one! It may play well for you at this moment, but time and physics stand still for no man...

Really, it is a wall-hanger. Pretty little thing. You may be best doing just that with her and saving for a little better guitar. :sad:

I ordered an compensated saddle for it and a new nut. I think I'm leaving the steel strings on it until they need replacing and then I might try the silk and steel strings. I'm not too worried about hurting this thing anymore. I love playing it, even without a radius I can still play chords easily on it. The action is really low and easy to play without buzzing. When I get the compensated saddle I'm going to set the action at a similar height. The only real thing to be concerned about now is the bridge lifting, but maybe it could be a good learning experience to learn about to reglue it myself. I play this thing everyday and nothing seems to be changing, so I think ill just keep playing the crap out of it till it folds in half.... (Which I dont think will happen)

..dont think it matters at this point..its well built ...and with the steel strings on ...it hasnt blown up...

you could get fancy rainbow coloured nylon strings like these......:wink:

just did a string job for an old kurri mate, Billy. .... this old guitar has spent a lot of time inside the big house and could tell a few stories.....:cool:

you can see the larger diameter tuning pegs for nylons.... as jefrs alluded to..:wink:.

..dont think it matters at this point..its well built ...and with the steel strings on ...it hasnt blown up...

I agree. There's no cracks anywhere, the neck doesn't appear to be twisted and seems to have just the right amount of bow to it with the tension of these strings to give me no buzzing or fretted out notes. The current saddle plastic and is loose as a goose in the bridge so the new bone one, once I have it fitting properly, I'm hoping will make this thing sound even better and a little fuller. So I'm on the play it until something goes horribly wrong team now.

you could get fancy rainbow coloured nylon strings like these......:wink:

just did a string job for an old kurri mate, Billy. .... this old guitar has spent a lot of time inside the big house and could tell a few stories.....:cool:

you can see the larger diameter tuning pegs for nylons.... as jefrs alluded to..:wink:.

That is awesome! and I definitely see what you mean about the larger diameter tuning pegs for the nylon strings. I'm going to stick with the steels, but now I kinda want to play a classical acoustic to see what it's like lol. I've got a little fender ukulele with the telecaster headstock on its way, so that should give me some nylon string fun.

The two pearloid dots on the bridge probably mean that the bridge is screwed to the top, maybe glued as well, maybe not...you can determine that at a point when you have all the strings off by either putting your hand into the sound hole and feeling for the nut ends or using a small examination mirror.

Good luck!

I was reading my trusty guitar repair manual written by Dan Erlewine and he describes the reason why nylon string guitars don't need compensated saddles. I don't recall what he said not do I have vast experience with nylon acoustics. I know the action in a classical guitar will have higher action.

If you use it as a steel string then use a compensated saddle. If you use it as a nylon then but a new saddle for it. Either way you will be doing some saddle work.

I was reading my trusty guitar repair manual written by Dan Erlewine and he describes the reason why nylon string guitars don't need compensated saddles. I don't recall what he said not do I have vast experience with nylon acoustics. I know the action in a classical guitar will have higher action.

If you use it as a steel string then use a compensated saddle. If you use it as a nylon then but a new saddle for it. Either way you will be doing some saddle work.

I would like to learn why a nylon string guitar doesn't need a compensated saddle, heck even a good ukulele has one.

I've already have got 2 new bone compensated saddles on their way with 2 new bone nuts (i got 2 just in case I make a mistake). Dirt cheap from china... lol $11 total. If their measurements are actually what was stated in the auction, I should be able to make them work perfectly, but we shall see...

This is my first taste of guitar lutherie, should be fun. I'll be watching this video many times.

Such a good video. I'm so thankful informational vids like this are available.

Q9ywORU5EUs

Geez, the bridge alone tells you is is a nylon string guitar. It is an all laminate guitar made in the later 1970s.

As suggested - silk and steel in the way to go. The neck and probably bracing and bridge plate are not designed to handle the tension of steel strings. If you put too much tension on the neck it can cause the top to rotate and distort.

The two pearloid dots on the bridge probably mean that the bridge is screwed to the top, maybe glued as well, maybe not...you can determine that at a point when you have all the strings off by either putting your hand into the sound hole and feeling for the nut ends or using a small examination mirror.

Good luck!

I just loosened off a couple strings and got my skinny hand in there, it's definitely bolted, so that's good! Now I don't have to worry about it ripping off! lol. It does also appear to be glued but the glue is letting go in the center between the two bolts. Maybe I can add a covered 3rd bolt in the center between the D and G strings to clamp in back down and shoot some glue in the lifted opening for a little added hold. There is a wood brace on the other side of the bridge about the same size are the bridge that the bolts go through to. So adding a center bolt will tie into that brace also.

Getto guitar luthier 101 LOL.

I would like to learn why a nylon string guitar doesn't need a compensated saddle, heck even a good ukulele has one.

I've already have got 2 new bone compensated saddles on their way with 2 new bone nuts (i got 2 just in case I make a mistake). Dirt cheap from china... lol $11 total. If their measurements are actually what was stated in the auction, I should be able to make them work perfectly, but we shall see...

Dan states "The wound strings have a stranded core rather than a solid one, and sharp out at a rate similar to that of the solid nylon treble strings. Classical strings have a more even tension across the fingerboard than steel strings. Therefore they require close to the same amount of compensation per string, and in general are more uniformly spaced from the fingerboard in terms of height."

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Great info thanks for posting!

Just thought I'd update this, I got an intonated bone saddle for it. Sanded it down and got it fitting nicely with nice action. I leveled out and re-crowned the frets in I'm sure an unconventional way but it worked for me. I left the steel strings on it and it hasn't ripped the bridge off or folded in half yet. I ended up with a really nice sounding and playing acoustic, at least to me anyway, for about a $10 investment and a sacrificed vinyl record. The bone saddle really brought out the tone even on the low end, intonation is slightly off by between 3-7hz sharp per string but that's ok. I still have to install the bone nut but for now I'm really happy and play this thing like crazy. I take it everywhere with me lol. Here are some pics!

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/elcam/IMG_6693.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/elcam/IMG_6694-1.jpg

Thanks for the input, advise and help everyone!

Looks good. Glad to hear it worked out for you.

Jim

I am a bit confused. This guitar appears to have been put up for sale last November.

I am a bit confused. This guitar appears to have been put up for sale last November.


No clue what you are talking about.