Cream - British invasion pop or serious musicianship?

I will start by saying I love all types of music, much of it being fluffy, fun pop (too many great acts to mention here) and "serious" music such as opera, Chopin, Joe Satriani, Larry Carlton, Jeff Beck, Joe Pass, etc. What's great is when a band can be both such as the Beatles, or some say Cream.

Were they serious, ground breaking musicians, or was the focus of this band to write pop hits and reach an icon status on those levels? What got me thinking this was a guitar magazine stating Clapton did not reach his true potential, musicianship, and artistry until he hooked up with Duane Allman and did Layla. Other than that, there's no doubt today as to having Clapton at this point having conquered the serious musicianship test and sell as many top 40 songs as almost anybody around.

I think Cream was both, and also was Clapton's apex. However, I was listening to Fresh Cream the other day, and I have to say it suffers severely from Stigwood's production. It's very regrettable that such a milestone album sounds the way it does. The handling of the vocals in the mix is especially atrocious.

I can't speak to whether they were serious or not but as to when he reached his potential I have to say I liked EC's SOUND better with the Bluesbreakers than at any other point in his career.

cream is my fave of all the clapton incarnations

I will start by saying I love all types of music, much of it being fluffy, fun pop (too many great acts to mention here) and "serious" music such as opera, Chopin, Joe Satriani, Larry Carlton, Jeff Beck, Joe Pass, etc. What's great is when a band can be both such as the Beatles, or some say Cream.

Were they serious, ground breaking musicians, or was the focus of this band to write pop hits and reach an icon status on those levels? What got me thinking this was a guitar magazine stating Clapton did not reach his true potential, musicianship, and artistry until he hooked up with Duane Allman and did Layla. Other than that, there's no doubt today as to having Clapton at this point having conquered the serious musicianship test and sell as many top 40 songs as almost anybody around.

Clapton hasn't been a towering presence on the pop charts.

In recent years, he's gotten way too much of the credit for Cream. The primary voice and overwhelmingly dominant songwriting presence (along with lyricist Pete Brown) was Jack Bruce. I don't thing Clapton has ever been particularly impressive as a songwriter.

I'd have to say they were both. Even if they were playing British invasion pop, they nevertheless invented much of what we still hear today. If Cream came on the scene now, they might be relegated to "just another Brit pop band", but they didn't have hundreds of famous rock bands/guitarists/drummers/bassists to be inspired by or to emulate. There were a few inspirations back then, but Cream was one of the bands that stuck the pieces together in such a way that they formed something new, or at least newish. I'm not a Clapton fan, and not really a Page fan. Compared to the serious musicians of today, they're just not all that. But for their day, and what they were attempting to invent, yes, absolutely they were serious musicians.

Just my opinion of course.

My take is Clapton was always a great musician and he ventured forth in his two hit bands, Yardbirds and Cream, to come up with pop music with some flair, but changed dramatically with Layla. When he did that album, he had already made his mark with the Yardbirds, Cream, and Blind Faith for the chart topping stuff and his latest project was more personal in nature (Patti Harrison, for starters). He wasn't just writing and recording catchy tunes to impress chicks, he was in love with a woman and that inspired him to no end, and great composers have a long history of producing great works based on a love of a single woman. Also, I don't think Clapton worked with guitarists/musicians better than him previously but Duane Allman coming into the studio and doing most of that album with him made him rise to the occasion.

I think while he did return to chart toppers and pop music, his apex was with his trading solos with Duane. I think Duane himself had the freedom to do all the licks he couldn't with his regular band, so he was free to explore too. It was probably one of the greatest collaborations in rock music history. It's the only old rock CD I have that I can play and not get tired of. The only other CDs that hit me as being that fresh each time is anything Neil Young with Crazy Horse.

They were serious musicians of undoubted skill making (mostly) darned good music that resonated with the time.

All ya need to know!

I think Cream was both, and also was Clapton's apex. However, I was listening to Fresh Cream the other day, and I have to say it suffers severely from Stigwood's production. It's very regrettable that such a milestone album sounds the way it does. The handling of the vocals in the mix is especially atrocious.

Hunt down the mono version of FRESH CREAM because the stereo mix is a complete mess.

Were they serious, ground breaking musicians, or was the focus of this band to write pop hits and reach an icon status on those levels? What got me thinking this was a guitar magazine stating Clapton did not reach his true potential, musicianship, and artistry until he hooked up with Duane Allman and did Layla. Other than that, there's no doubt today as to having Clapton at this point having conquered the serious musicianship test and sell as many top 40 songs as almost anybody around.

The real muscle in CREAM was Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker. If you ever heard The Graham Bond Organization you can hear the seeds of CREAM.

Hunt down the mono version of FRESH CREAM becuase the stereo mix is a complete mess

Will do. Thanks for the tip.

The real muscle in CREAM was Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker. If you ever heard The Graham Bond Organization you can hear the seeds of CREAM.

I can go with that and especially the Jack Bruce factor. That being said, Clapton did have some fine moments in Cream, as he did with everything he did. He was even more of a background player in Blind Faith. I think Layla was where he got the chance to steer the ship for the first time.

They were serious musicians of undoubted skill making (mostly) darned good music that resonated with the time.

All ya need to know!

Very true! :cool:

I think Cream was the peak of Claptons playing - Layla is banal, just the riff from 'As The Years Go Passing By' speeded up. Good piano in it though...

They were serious musicians of undoubted skill making (mostly) darned good music that resonated with the time.

All ya need to know!
+1 to that !

I will say ,as someone who lived and played through that time, that Clapton left the Yard Birds because he was not interested in Pop music in the least. Cream was a platform for his personal expeiriment. He was just as astounding for 1968 as EVH in 1980 or SRV was in 1984 . Maybe more so because he was the Captain Kirk of the Les Paul-Marshall sound. Post Cream he was a serious drug addict. And a post script, Nobody plays drums like Ginger Baker to this day !
BTW where's DrumBob ?

I can't speak to whether they were serious or not but as to when he reached his potential I have to say I liked EC's SOUND better with the Bluesbreakers than at any other point in his career.

This.

...and the musicianship on Cream's first album isn't really debatable is it?

I've never thought of Cream as pop.

At their best, they were up there with anybody. But they did have some throwaway tunes also.

I was a huge Cream fan. I never thought once of it as pop. I think it was the apex of Clapton's playing and tone. He had some great moments on Layla and on the Blind Faith album, but then mostly downhill from there.

In recent years, he's gotten way too much of the credit for Cream. The primary voice and overwhelmingly dominant songwriting presence (along with lyricist Pete Brown) was Jack Bruce. I don't thing Clapton has ever been particularly impressive as a songwriter.

I would have to agree with this - though he has made a few memorable songs.

Maybe that's why he lets himself be inspired to new heights when playing songs (or on songs) by some of the best songwriters there is. I only have to mention While My Guitar Gently Weeps (George Harrison), City Blues (Brian Wilson), Don't Think Twice, It's All Right (Dylan] or his fantastic version of Border Song by Elton John. With a horn section, a funky Little Feat groove and a guitar solo that soars straight into heaven, this has got to be one of his finest moments IMHO.

VMKRgVwaXK4

Cream "live" = endless variations on the same thing.

Cream studio = great, loved them

I discovered Cream right at the same time as Coltrane and I had to finally just listen to all their pop/studio tunes.

The live tunes where they tried to "improvise" were just a little lacking compared to Tyner/Garrison/Jones/and Trane...:lol:

I have some bootlegs from 67 from the Grande Ballroom in Detroit where I'm from. Eric is playing balls to the wall and hasn't been intimidated by Ahmet Ertegun from Atlantic telling him he should be the leader and not Bruce. At 22 he was rewriting the electric guitar as we know it.It's too bad he stopped growing and got tired of trying keep up with Bruce. Comparing the Cream to Coltrane is like comparing the Sex Pistols to the MC5 Mike.

To me, Cream was a turning point in rock. They were the bridge between pop and hard rock. In 1966 (year 1 for Cream) few had yet heard of Hendrix...the Beatles were mainly pop as were the Stones, although they were starting to turn a bit sinister...The Who had yet to reach the hard 'n' heavy plateau that made them legendary...there was no Led Zeppelin or Black Sabbath either.

(The) Cream were a ground breaking band, and still one of my all-time faves!

Gotta respect the classics!!

Felix.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Felix_Pappalardi_Grave_1024.jpg/220px-Felix_Pappalardi_Grave_1024.jpg

Comparing the Cream to Coltrane is like comparing the Sex Pistols to the MC5 Mike.

I like the MC5, but the Sex Pistols were a lot better, so... whaddya saying?

I don't think Cream was all that great. I like pre and post Cream Clapton better.

I like the MC5, but the Sex Pistols were a lot better, so... whaddya saying?

The MC5, Pistols, Coltrane, all versions of Clapton, are all great in my book.

But back to Clapton, what's great about him is he worked pure blues (Bluesbreakers at least, but also great collaborations), well deserved popular hits (Blind Faith, Cream, Yardbirds, solo career), acoustic (Unplugged sessions), and the then more obscure stuff (Bonnie, Dominoes). If he doesn't qualify as British rock and roll royalty, I don't know who does. Part of what makes him interesting is that he tried, not always successfully, to bridge across a lot of styles and even though he may have been dogged by the fans at certain times, it's all good as long as he's doing it and really never giving up. What's also interesting is that different sides of his playing speak to different sets of fans. I know he played a tele in the Yardbirds and Gibsons during Cream, but I still consider him at his best, and among the best when toting a strat.

Cream was NOT a pop band, in the words of Clapton "it was supposed to be Buddy Guy and a rhythm section"... didnt' quite work out that way of course... :lol:

I'm a devout Cream fan (still have all the official releases in vinyl!) and yeah, there's some tripe in there, both studio and live, but the gems far outweigh the trash. I still think Disreali Gears was their best record, and (along with Hendrix) really paved the way for the heavier direction that rock was taking at that time.

Clapton on record has been uneven over the years, but has generally been good live-he's also, as noted above, a pretty decent interpreter of someone else's tunes, and he has written a few decent ones himself (Layla, Wonderful Tonight, Let It Rain). I think 99% of us would happily claim credit (and royalties!) for a tune that Clapton made famous-I know I would...

Jack Bruce certainly got the lion's share of Cream's royalties, and it's a shame Ginger Baker didn't get more dough-he's about the only rock drummer whose drum solos I can actually listen to-lots of texture and dynamics, and how he inverts and reinvents the beat makes it far more interesting than the usual superfast drum rolls...

Franc Robert

Hendrix was a big fan.

I think the fact that we're still talking about them all these years later says a lot about the band. Whether you think they were pop or not, you can't deny their impact or their influence.

And yes, Bruce and Baker were more integral for the band than EC. Clapton didn't really come into his own until Derek and the Dominoes. But Cream is really what catapulted him to international guitar god status, and made his later successes... not possible, but easier?

Cream were serious musician's at least that is how Ginger Baker Look at it. He didn't like the show off like Hendrix. Ginger said it was the music that they wanted to sell.

When Cream started out they were considered underground or progressive rock even
with the blues influence. Local pop stations didn't play their music (too "far out") and
their only play was on early FM underground stations in the US.
Cream and Jimi Hendrix were the top musician skill based groups then.
Pop never came up in the conversation or media then for either as both pretty
much just did whatever they wanted songwriting and otherwise.

When Cream started out they were considered underground or progressive rock even
with the blues influence. Local pop stations didn't play their music (too "far out") and
their only play was on early FM underground stations in the US.
Cream and Jimi Hendrix were the top musician skill based groups then.
Pop never came up in the conversation or media then for either as both pretty
much just did whatever they wanted songwriting and otherwise.

Yeah, I never thought of Cream as being anywhere near pop music. though they were enormously influential with just about every musician I knew, back in the day...I still think Disraeli Gears has some of the best guitar sounds ever recorded...we can thank Pappalardi for that, I suppose...

Cream were amazing in my mind... all three masters on their instrument. I do not hear many (if any) 'pop' elements in their music.

On the other hand... I am currently more impressed by Blind Faith. One PERFECT album, and that's it.

I was a huge Cream fan. I never thought once of it as pop. I think it was the apex of Clapton's playing and tone. He had some great moments on Layla and on the Blind Faith album, but then mostly downhill from there.

+1. Because the airplay and attention that "Sunshine," received, Cream albums, especially "Best of" also got attention. For many, including me, it was their first exposure long jams, riveting lyrics, and incredible playing by all three.

For Clapton, downhill since Blind Faith seems about right, and that was 1970, so downhill for 42 years.

Cream was NOT a pop band, in the words of Clapton "it was supposed to be Buddy Guy and a rhythm section"... didnt' quite work out that way of course... :lol:

I'm a devout Cream fan (still have all the official releases in vinyl!) and yeah, there's some tripe in there, both studio and live, but the gems far outweigh the trash. I still think Disreali Gears was their best record, and (along with Hendrix) really paved the way for the heavier direction that rock was taking at that time.

Clapton on record has been uneven over the years, but has generally been good live-he's also, as noted above, a pretty decent interpreter of someone else's tunes, and he has written a few decent ones himself (Layla, Wonderful Tonight, Let It Rain). I think 99% of us would happily claim credit (and royalties!) for a tune that Clapton made famous-I know I would...

Jack Bruce certainly got the lion's share of Cream's royalties, and it's a shame Ginger Baker didn't get more dough-he's about the only rock drummer whose drum solos I can actually listen to-lots of texture and dynamics, and how he inverts and reinvents the beat makes it far more interesting than the usual superfast drum rolls...

Franc Robert

I read a quote from Buddy Guy. He was talking about sitting with Clapton at some point and Clapton played part of the Strange Brew riff. Buddy said, " I like that" Clapton said," you should. You wrote it."

Gotta love the fact that he, along with most of the acts that came from England seemed to always acknowledge the influence of the greats.

as a kid growing up in the 60's listening to radio "pop".. and watching the Beatles/Monkees tv shows.... by the time we were teens at junior high...

this came along... White Room.. Sunshine of your Love...with that deep bluesy back beat and heavier tones... before Sabbath/Zep days...
unless you were there... you won't know how good Cream came across ...compared to the available sounds.. ... or how far from "pop" they were....

Clapton was just one player.. not a demi god then.... a punk kid really...
JB&Baker were driving it...

and the Blind Faith LP is a masterpiece of the times ... :smile:


Cqh54rSzheg

Music that is sold/designed to be sold, is "pop' or "popular"
music.
Cream was a great pop band, and they were wildly successful.
They blessed/cursed us with the long solo.
We still talk about them 45 years later, and they sold and continue to
sell their "product".
Cream took themselves seriously, and they had great songs.
They also played a lot of tiresome, self indulgent junk.
We stood in line to see them do it, and bought the records.
Looks like we both won!

I will start by saying I love all types of music, much of it being fluffy, fun pop (too many great acts to mention here) and "serious" music such as opera, Chopin, Joe Satriani, Larry Carlton, Jeff Beck, Joe Pass, etc. What's great is when a band can be both such as the Beatles, or some say Cream.

Were they serious, ground breaking musicians, or was the focus of this band to write pop hits and reach an icon status on those levels? What got me thinking this was a guitar magazine stating Clapton did not reach his true potential, musicianship, and artistry until he hooked up with Duane Allman and did Layla. Other than that, there's no doubt today as to having Clapton at this point having conquered the serious musicianship test and sell as many top 40 songs as almost anybody around.

No, Cream doen't cut it, anymore than the Bluesbreakers.

It's the cats like Magic Sam & Otis Rush, Buddy Guy, Guitar Shorty (who taught Hendrix!) etc...that played serious soulful music, ferocious guitar, with attitude & musicality.

After all these years, i am beginning to agree that all this is based on something related to discrimination. "Keef" here & Clapton there...

But - as ususal - I'm preaching & will be soon burned by the guardians of the "British-Blues Sect"; the most powerful sect in America (of all the places...)

recently I bought an "albert hall" concert Tshirt on the 'bay...

the front is a huge Disreali Gears LP cover....:smile:

so many people come up.. who've never heard of Cream... and go WOW!! lemme check your t shirt out....Unreal!..

Iconic to say the least....:wink:

No, Cream doen't cut it, anymore than the Bluesbreakers.

It's the cats like Magic Sam & Otis Rush, Buddy Guy, Guitar Shorty (who taught Hendrix!) etc...that played serious soulful music, ferocious guitar, with attitude & musicality.

After all these years, i am beginning to agree that all this is based on something related to discrimination. "Keef" here & Clapton there...

But - as ususal - I'm preaching & will be soon burned by the guardians of the "British-Blues Sect"; the most powerful sect in America (of all the places...)

Clapton himself will be the first to acknowledge that fact and he considers the old blues guys the real thing. Anyway, see any of the Crossroads Benefit Concerts and the interviews.

Music, and let's say blues, does not belong to any one race. Sure, there's no doubt that the original guys did it best. Due to their relative obscurity, I was able to watch a very small show (75 people maybe) in a small room with Otis Rush and I was sitting on the floor 10 feet away from him (front row) and saw him plug a hollowbody straight into a Twin and get a ton of sounds.

He came in by himself (totally unprepared) and had a local backup band that had never played with him and for each song he just made stuff up and jammed with the band. His performance was better than anything I had ever seen. I knew then and there that a Clapton or Keef could never do this type of thing.

In recent years, he's gotten way too much of the credit for Cream. The primary voice and overwhelmingly dominant songwriting presence (along with lyricist Pete Brown) was Jack Bruce. I don't thing Clapton has ever been particularly impressive as a songwriter.

Overstated a bit, but you're on to it here.

Most of everything else Eric did was more intuitive, more "fun" for him; I just think Cream required too much discipline, too much teamwork and some of these other guys were a handful (especially Ginger) and it got to be too much work.

You see Jimi tail down after a period of high intensity; better to eject and get safely out of there than to not survive at all.

After all these years, i am beginning to agree that all this is based on something related to discrimination.

It never fails...some self-loathing soul always has to trot out this old gem.

Give it a rest, already.

Someone once said it best; something like 'Clapton spent 7 years playing incredible ground breaking music, and since then has been merely good.' I love everything he did from the bluesbreakers to Layla. Had he died right afterwards, his reputation would be just as great (or even greater).

In recent years, he's gotten way too much of the credit for Cream. The primary voice and overwhelmingly dominant songwriting presence (along with lyricist Pete Brown) was Jack Bruce. I don't thing Clapton has ever been particularly impressive as a songwriter.

And... don't forget Felix. Starting with Disraeli Gears, I think Felix was their George Martin. The guy had incredible skills, and ears. Too bad he blew them out playing with Mountain. And then there's the whole getting killed by his wife thing. Keep your wife close, keep your ammunition closer.:cool:

Someone once said it best; something like 'Clapton spent 7 years playing incredible ground breaking music, and since then has been merely good.' I love everything he did from the bluesbreakers to Layla. Had he died right afterwards, his reputation would be just as great (or even greater).

I'm not a huge Clapton fan, but I think in recent years, he's played some of this best GUITAR. Not necessarily new songs, but playing his best guitar. Like with the Cream DVD from around 2005, and his Robert Johnson DVD. It's all older stuff, but his playing/tone/sounds are as good as ever.

Per Claptons autobiography ... he states that when Cream formed they were just a blues band, Stigwood wanted them to be pop stars to make HIM money.

Hey notice how Detroit is heavily represented on this thead. In the late 60's Cream and the other British blues bands loved 'Motown' and visa versa. Grande Ballroom thank you.

I agree, CREAM was great as far as their albums, but live, it was like a jam band, and their sound mix live was not very good for whatever reason. They most certainly were not a pop band, and their musicianship could only be questioned by Hellen Keller, I mean Ginger Baker is one of the best jazz drummers of all time, this is a known fact by working musicians, Jack Bruce is a technician, and Clapton come on now your taking the piss as they say.
Also why does everyone think Clapton after CREAM was the worst? I mean he actually started to write some of the songs he was playing, his records sold at a higher rate than ever, he actually started to sing, he became a great bandleader and bandmate, and he was able to not only retain his chops, but expand them.
We can argue whether his tone was thicker or more round with a les paul all day, but his tone is still rather similiar, and the chops no doubt around the early 90s when he released From The Cradle were at their peak. IMO

Also why does everyone think Clapton after CREAM was the worst? I mean he actually started to write some of the songs he was playing...

That might be the problem.

He's always had a very recognizable style and that's saying a lot.

Per Claptons autobiography ... he states that when Cream formed they were just a blues band, Stigwood wanted them to be pop stars to make HIM money.

What is amazing about Cream is that they were everything: a serious/experimental band, a blues band, and if judging from record sales (and what Clapton calls the female "fans"), they were a very popular/big selling rock and roll band. It's kind of like the Beatles where some want to focus on the British invasion and record sales but others rather point to an amazing evolution of ground breaking studio work in their second half of their careers. John Lennon called them a "boy band" and there's no doubt they were that on some level and as bad as it was, it wasn't as bad as being "trained monkeys" like George Harrison likened them to be towards the end. Luckily, he (George) showed everybody who was the creative and most serious one after the first couple of years after the Beatles breakup.

I dont know Layla, I shot the sherriff, Bell Bottom, Wonderful Tonight, Tears, Running on faith, etc all better songs IMO than strange brew an albert king rip off as stated by eric, which was creams biggest hit. Their best songs White Room, Sunshine, Ulysses, Badge, etc. didnt sell as much as the songs he wrote and co-wrote, and also IMO were not as well crafted, mixed, and the chops are way more mature on his later solo albums and DADD.

I dont know Layla, I shot the sherriff, Bell Bottom, Wonderful Tonight, Tears, Running on faith, etc all better songs IMO than strange brew an albert king rip off as stated by eric, which was creams biggest hit. Their best songs White Room, Sunshine, Ulysses, Badge, etc. didnt sell as much as the songs he wrote and co-wrote, and also IMO were not as well crafted, mixed, and the chops are way more mature on his later solo albums and DADD.

Bigger hits don't mean better songs. I'd rather listen to White Room, Sunshine, Ulysses, Badge, etc than any of his solo material. Maybe I just don't like his mature chops. And I'd be happy if I never heard Wonderful Tonight again.

I agree on wonderfull tonight. Lol

I dont know Layla, I shot the sherriff, Bell Bottom, Wonderful Tonight, Tears, Running on faith, etc all better songs IMO than strange brew an albert king rip off as stated by eric, which was creams biggest hit. Their best songs White Room, Sunshine, Ulysses, Badge, etc. didnt sell as much as the songs he wrote and co-wrote

You got that bassackwards. "Strange Brew" was not their biggest hit. In fact, it was not a hit, period. They had two Top Ten hits in the U.S., "White Room" (#6) and "Sunshine of Your Love" (#5), and one other song that made it into the Top Forty, "Crossroads" (#26).

According to Jack Bruce who said on a bbc documentary 'we got Eric to play jazz without him realizing'

yet gimme Santana

sans McLaughlin

We're still talking about stuff he did 50 years ago?
He must have done some things right.
I saw Cream in 1968 in Miami on the Farewell Tour. There wasn't much "POP" music that night.

They were serious musicians of undoubted skill making (mostly) darned good music that resonated with the time.

All ya need to know!

This sums it up quite nicely!

You got that bassackwards. "Strange Brew" was not their biggest hit. In fact, it was not a hit, period. They had two Top Ten hits in the U.S., "White Room" (#6) and "Sunshine of Your Love" (#5), and one other song that made it into the Top Forty, "Crossroads" (#26).

Depends where you're looking.

Their biggest international hit was White Room. It made #1 in Australia, #2 in Canada, #6 in the US...

...and #28 in the UK :rolleyes:

Strange Brew charted in both Britain and Oz.

Ginger Baker is a bit of an arse by all accounts.

"Sunshine Of Your Love" got am radio play when it came out but most of their stuff was on the new fm underground stations. WDAS in Philly. I distinctly remember driving from Ocean City N.J. to Longport across the bridge on a beautiful summer day with my cousin who just got back from Nam the day before and Sunshine came on the radio. I was driving the family wagon. My cousin looked at me and said wow, who's this? "Wheels Of Fire" late at night with headphones. Pop? No.

Cream was brilliant----and one of the stones blues rock was built on. It is not black, American blues......and certainly not Guitar Shorty, thank you Jeezus!

His performance was better than anything I had ever seen. I knew then and there that a Clapton or Keef could never do this type of thing.

I am sure they could .

Jeff Beck is the overrated one, classic albums? No. Classic songs? No. Fantastic player no doubt but nowhere near Clapton in terms of rock history.

Depends where you're looking.

Their biggest international hit was White Room. It made #1 in Australia, #2 in Canada, #6 in the US...

...and #28 in the UK

Strange Brew charted in both Britain and Oz.

#17 in the U.K.