Wiring Insanity Strikes Again?........

I'm beginning to wonder if electricity works differently around my place than it does everywhere else in the world. :confused: Here's another puzzler, but first some history.

Some of you may remember the challenges I had a few months back upgrading my CVC with Keystones and a 4-way. All of my many attempts to get it working using the conventional wiring scheme with the B/N Series in position #4 failed even though I wired it the same way the 4-way in my 95 MIM was wired which worked perfectly.

I ended up taking it to a luthier friend of mine nearby who also failed to get it working with that scheme even using a brand new switch thereby eliminating the possibility that the first was either damaged or defective. He was eventually able to solve this riddle with a totally different wiring scheme that placed the Series in position #1 with the typical 3-way sequence in positions #2-#4. I have no complaints because I actually like it a little better this way.

The puzzling thing was that it shouldn't really have worked this way at all based on how it was wired and neither he nor a couple of members here who offered valuable advice throughout this ordeal could explain it either. I even posted a diagram of that wiring scheme to see if anyone else had used it successfully and didn't get a single response in the affirmative.

Well my current project has me converting that same 95 MIM into a Nashville configuration using a RW/RP Middle Pickup from a 96 Strat. Since the 4-way was already wired and working perfectly I decided not to mess with it and simply install a P/P Tone Pot to actuate the Middle Pickup instead. This way I keep all four other combinations including the B/N Parallel that's lost on a traditional stock Nashville and just add the Middle Pickup whenever I want it in the mix. Simple enough even for me....I thought. :grin:

The Middle pickup is wired with the hot lead to the E terminal on the P/P Pot, ground to the Volume Pot, and a jumper from the D terminal on the P/P Pot to the outer Volume Pot lug. Pulling up on the switch turns the Middle on and leaving it down keeps it off. That checks with the wiring diagram and operation of the switch I have to go by. This works, but in a way I didn't expect at all and I can't figure out why. Maybe the wiring techs and builders can share a though or two. I'd love some advice since I'm stymied. :cry:

With the switch off there is still a very weak out of phase type output from the Middle pickup when it's in or near the pickup cavity or attached to the pickguard and set into the cavity. If I remove it from that area and any proximity to the other pickups and just lay it aside on the body it's dead silent as it should be. Put it back and tap on it and there is weak output. It's on a different switch isolated from the wiring of the other pickups so there's no possibility of contact or a short between the hot leads. So what would cause this? :confused:

With the switch on the Middle pickup combines with any of the four positions of the 4-way as it should but the B/N Series in position #4 remains B/N Parallel just as it does in position #2. I didn't expect the Middle to be in Series with the B/N Series combo because it's not wired into the Series circuit but I did expect the B/N to be in Series combined with the Middle in it's normal state. As it stands with the Middle on position #4 simply duplicates position #2, B/N/M Parallel. :eek:

If I switch the Middle off I get B/N Series in position #4 put with that weak out of phase output from the Middle pickup in there as well. So no matter what pickup selection I use with the Middle off it's still contributing that weak output to the other single pickup selections or combinations. Typically when I throw a switch to off what ever it operates turns off not half way off. Apparently someone forgot to let this switch in on those regulations. :wink:

Any best guesses out there. I'm a little out of them at the moment. :neutral:

You might try adding a jumper between the F lug, on the P/P, to ground. That way, when the middle pickup is not engaged, it will be shorted, so you shouldn't get any sound from that pickup, at all.

See if this works. It could be a bad push/pull. You could also try lugs A,B, and C, on the P/P, instead of D, E, and F. The two poles in that push/pull are supposed to be independent.

I can think of no reason why the B/M series should suddenly become B/M parallel. Is that new pickup in phase with the other two? An RW/RP pickup is only RW/RP with respect to some other pickup.

You might try adding a jumper between the F lug, on the P/P, to ground. That way, when the middle pickup is not engaged, it will be shorted, so you shouldn't get any sound from that pickup, at all.

See if this works. It could be a bad push/pull. You could also try lugs A,B, and C, on the P/P, instead of D, E, and F. The two poles in that push/pull are supposed to be independent.

I can think of no reason why the B/M series should suddenly become B/M parallel. Is that new pickup in phase with the other two? An RW/RP pickup is only RW/RP with respect to some other pickup.

Good thought on that extra jumper from the F terminal. I'll give that a shot in a bit and if that doesn't do it I'll shift the connections to the opposite terminals next. That might determine whether or not the P/P Pot is at fault.

The Middle pickup is RW/RP to both the Neck and the Bridge pickups which are stock Alnico V's. I confirmed that when it arrived since I was sent one previous to that which wasn't RW/RP. It is what it's supposed to be.

In position #1-B/M or #3-N/M with the Middle on the pickups are in Parallel just as they are when all three are on in combination in position #2. It's when the Middle is on and I shift to position #4 which is B/N in Series that they become B/N Parallel. My expectation was that those two would remain in Series with the Middle just added to that separately since it's independent of the 4-way switch and not wired in Series with the Bridge and Neck.

Apologies......

NO matter what the B/N wiring is in position #4, that middle pickup is still RWRP to them and throws that combination out of phase, doesn't it? MErely switching that middle pickup in for the B/N Series position cannot possibly change the B/N relationship. The B/N are still in series in that position. IT is the relationship of the middle pickp to that series combi that is giving you that thinner out of phase result.

I don't know Wally. That's what I'm trying to grasp. In Pos #4 B/N are in Series on my 4-way. With the Middle off they do combine in Series except that in this case the p/p is not shutting the Middle off completely. There is still very weak output in all positions even when it should be shut down completely.

In Pos #4 with B/N in Series when I actuate the Middle pickup the B/N in Series reverts to B/N Parallel. Despite the nature of the Middle pickup the B/N are still wired in Series to each other so why does the introduction of the Middle affect that? The Middle wouldn't also be in Series because it's not wired in Series with the other two so I would expect it only to add to the others not override the wiring. Isn't that what controls the relationship of the Bridge and Neck or is that what I'm not getting?

I took JCollins advice and wired the jumper from F to ground but the results were the same. Still weak output from the Middle with the switch off. I also wired it all to the opposite terminals (A,B,C) first without a jumper from C to ground then with but no change either way. There is still a very weak but audible output from the Middle with the switch off.

So does this lead us to the conclusion that the switch is bad? Unwired the meter readings from the terminals are; Switch On D-E = .01 and E-F = no reading. Switch Off D-E = no reading E-F = .01. Is this where the problem is coming from? Should there never be a reading between E-F no matter what position the switch is in?

Pardon my elementary level understanding of these micro electronic issues. I haven't had much experience with this stuff and though some of it is sinking in it's still sinking in slowly. That's why I appreciate the input and advice from the experts here. Little by little I'm getting better at it but since I learn by doing rather than from the telling unfortunately my lessons generally come from doing something wrong before I get it right.

Needless to say this attempt is going much better than the last (about a 100% improvement on my soldering skills) but I'm stumped as to why there is any output at all coming from the Middle with the switch in the off position. As I said in the OP, if I remove it from it's installed location in or around the pickup cavity between the two pickups it's silent. Put is back and there is weak output with the switch off.

Needless to say that has me stumped. As does the reason why although B/N are wired in Series in Pos #4 the introduction of the Middle pickup changes that relationship from Series to Parallel. B/M and B/N would combine in Parallel as would all three in Parallel but how does the B/N Series get overridden when the Middle is on?

If that's just the way it works then why doesn't the Middle interfere with B/N Series in the off position when there is still some output from it in the circuit?

So these are the two issues I'm trying to straighten out. How to get that Middle shut down completely in the off mode and how, if at all possible, to keep it from kicking B/N Series into B/N Parallel when it's on.

NO matter what the B/N wiring is in position #4, that middle pickup is still RWRP to them and throws that combination out of phase, doesn't it?

No, it does not throw that combination out of phase. Whether two (or three) coils are in phase is dependent upon how they are connected in the circuit, not whether one is RW/RP with respect to the other coil(s). In physics, there is a memory device known as the "right-hand rule". Make a fist of your right hand, with the thumb pointing out. Your thumb represents magnetic north, and your fingers represent the direction of current flow. This is also an excellent representation of a single coil. Notice that, no matter how you orient your hand, the fingers still point the same direction, relative to the thumb (magnetic north). Coils of different magnetic polarity can be wired into the same circuit, all in phase, as long as the normal direction of current flow, through each coil, is respected. A normal humbucker pickup, for example, can be thought of as two right hands, right next to each other, with the thumb of one pointing up, and the thumb of the other pointing down. This is exactly the representation of two coils RW/RP with respoct to each other. A third coil, in phase, is nothing but a third right hand, however you'd like to orient it.

It would help if you could draw a picture of the wiring. (Photos are never clear enough.)

Also, is this guitar shielded? It may be possible that the middle pickup is making accidental contact with the shielding, when the pickup is mounted.

Pardon...I hit the wrong button....

No, it does not throw that combination out of phase. Whether two (or three) coils are in phase is dependent upon how they are connected in the circuit, not whether one is RW/RP with respect to the other coil(s). In physics, there is a memory device known as the "right-hand rule". Make a fist of your right hand, with the thumb pointing out. Your thumb represents magnetic north, and your fingers represent the direction of current flow. This is also an excellent representation of a single coil. Notice that, no matter how you orient your hand, the fingers still point the same direction, relative to the thumb (magnetic north). Coils of different magnetic polarity can be wired into the same circuit, all in phase, as long as the normal direction of current flow, through each coil, is respected. A normal humbucker pickup, for example, can be thought of as two right hands, right next to each other, with the thumb of one pointing up, and the thumb of the other pointing down. This is exactly the representation of two coils RW/RP with respoct to each other. A third coil, in phase, is nothing but a third right hand, however you'd like to orient it.

It would help if you could draw a picture of the wiring. (Photos are never clear enough.)

Also, is this guitar shielded? It may be possible that the middle pickup is making accidental contact with the shielding, when the pickup is mounted.

That was my understanding too. The Middle won't combine with the other two in Series because it's not wired in Series with them but it should add it's character alone without changing that of the other two. Pos #4 B/N are wired in Series and should remain in Series whether the Middle is in or out of the circuit. Unfortunately right now that's not how it's operating. :confused:

The guitar is not shielded. The stock pickup and control cavities have only the LPB body paint covering them. Since the new rout for the Middle pickup (a single pickup rout, not a bathtub rout) was just bare wood I shielded it initially but pulled the shielding out when I was going through my normal process of elimination. No change.

I've changed all of wiring back to the D and E terminals again, including running a ground from terminal F to the Volume Pot as you suggested, with an interesting discovery. The Middle (off) is silent when the 4-way is in the Neck Only #3 position but not the others. :confused: The key question I still have is why will the Middle pickup (in off mode) become totally silent when it's not in or near the pickup cavity yet have a weak output in #1,#2, and #4 when it is? :confused: :confused:

This is a pretty simple straightforward conversion of stock Standard MIM Tele with a 4-way and treble bleed to a Nashville with a RW/RP Strat Middle dropped in between the other two and wired separately of the 4-way directly to a P/P Pot. Surely the other pickups shouldn't be affecting it or every Nashville would have the same problem.

I will draw a diagram of the new wiring to post but I probably won't get to it until tomorrow. Other priorities call this evening. But in the meantime the 4-way and treble bleed are wired as per the SD and/or Acme standard diagram for a 4-way with B/N Series in Pos. #4. Nothing out of the ordinary and it works exactly as it should independent of the Middle pickup.

Thanks for the help and advice guys. :mrgreen:

Like soulman said, the 4 way WAS in the guitar, working fine. STANDARD Fender 4 way scheme.
Installed the middle pup, and a p/p pot, the p/p switch doing the "middle on"

This is how he has the p/p:

Okay, I need education on the correct terminology, I suppose. SJtalon, can you expalin to us why the OP thinks that the #4 position is going to parallel from series when he brings that middle pickup online??? OBviously, the wirirng of those outside pickups in position #4 has not changed...they are still in series with regard to each other. So, if the sonics go 'thin'....what the OP is callling parallell.....when the middle is joined with the #4 series arrangemnt, what is the correct terminology for whatever that middle pickup's introduction to that series arrangement? IT has to be related to the RWRP of the middle pickup and its realtionship to that series arrangement, doesn't it?

The pickup might be out of phase with the other two, but that is independent of whether or not the pickup is RW/RP with respect to those other pickups.

The symptoms would normally make me think that something is out of phase, which is why I'd like to see a drawing of the wiring. Soulman969 mentioned that the wiring of the two pickups, with the 4-way switch, was done with a different wiring. That may be the wild card, here, because the description of the middle pickup wiring is simple, and would appear to be correct.

Not having seen a wiring diagram with a schematic of the new switch, I'm sort of postulating blindly here, but here's what I think:

You say in position 4 with the middle pickup off the B and N are in series. You think the B/N reverts to parallel when the M is switched on. I think what you have here is a series/parallel circuit where the B/N are still in series but that combination is now in parallel with the M when the M is turned on. Assuming this is the case, you would normally sense some diminution of the B/N output at this time.

I suspect you're trying to get some Strat "quack" with the middle pickup. It just might be to your advantage to not use it when you have the switch in B/N series position and just use it when you have B only or N only selected, just like if you had a 5-way switch on the guitar.

As to the M pickup still having some output when supposedly "off", the pickup is still creating a signal when you move the strings even though it's deselected at the switch (actually it's electrically disconnected from the signal path). Sometimes if several unshielded wires are routed parallel (not to be confused with electrical "parallel") to one another a signal from one can induce a signal in other wires. This may be happening in your guitar. A solution may be to change the wire routing as much as you can to where the wires do not run parallel to one another. Hard to do in a limited space.

Another solution may be to use shielded wires from the middle pickup and ground the shields. That should absolutely eliminate any spurious signals.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Okay, JCollins...I understand that. So, if that #4 position in combination witht he middle pickup is 'thinner' sounding and humbucking, it is parallel and out of phase, right? IF that combination is non-humbucking, then it is parallel and in phase, right?

And....since the OP 'hears' that the arrangement is parallel.....thinner sounding....I am going to say that the arrangement is parallel out of phase(humbucking) with regard to the neck/bridge series out of phase(humbucking) relationship combined with that RWRP middle p-up. ???

Okay, I need education on the correct terminology, I suppose. SJtalon, can you expalin to us why the OP thinks that the #4 position is going to parallel from series when he brings that middle pickup online??? OBviously, the wirirng of those outside pickups in position #4 has not changed...they are still in series with regard to each other. So, if the sonics go 'thin'....what the OP is callling parallell.....when the middle is joined with the #4 series arrangemnt, what is the correct terminology for whatever that middle pickup's introduction to that series arrangement? IT has to be related to the RWRP of the middle pickup and its realtionship to that series arrangement, doesn't it?

Sorry, it's taken me a day to get back on. I can explain that Wally. There is a definite sonic difference in the sound the Neck and Bridge pickups when you tap on them. Obviously the Series Combo will sound deeper and boomier than the sound when they're in Parallel.

Maybe my terminology is incorrect and I should be describing it as an "out of phase" sound but despite the terminology the relationship between the Neck and Bridge hasn't changed. They are still wired in Series in Pos. #4 and it's the sound of those two that changes. I also have Pos. #2 which is B/N Parallel to compare it to. It's the same. :confused:

The pickup might be out of phase with the other two, but that is independent of whether or not the pickup is RW/RP with respect to those other pickups.

The symptoms would normally make me think that something is out of phase, which is why I'd like to see a drawing of the wiring. Soulman969 mentioned that the wiring of the two pickups, with the 4-way switch, was done with a different wiring. That may be the wild card, here, because the description of the middle pickup wiring is simple, and would appear to be correct.

My adding that story about my experience with the CVC may have confused you JC. That guitar was wired differently. This MIM I'm converting is wired with a standard 4-way wiring scheme using the SD or Acme wiring diagrams that place the Series Combo on Pos. #4.

So if you look at either of those two 4-way wiring diagrams (the Seymour Duncan or the Acme) that is precisely the way this MIM is wired as far as the Bridge and Neck pick up are concerned.

Now add to that the exact wiring of the P/P Pot that sjtalon posted along with a jump wire from the outer to lug of the P/P Pot to the outer lug of the Volume Pot and you have it. Sorry I've been tied up and haven't had the chance to post a complete diagram but what I've described above is it.

With the P/P Switch on the Middle Pickup is in phase and operates normally in combination with the others; Pos. #1 = N/M, Pos. #3, N/M/B = Parallel, and Pos. #3 = N/M. Pos. #4 is the only one affected incorrectly with the switch on.

With the P/P Switch off the Middle is still providing weak output in every combination but Neck Only. There it is silent and it is silent when removed from the proximity of the other pickups.

Hope this clarifies a bit. :grin:

Thanks for the thinkin' caps guys ! I really can't explain the tone he gets there.

All my part in it was suggesting how he could EASILY (famous last words) add the middle pup.

To make things SO EASY, I say, leave your nice 4 way, and just put in a p/p tone pot to engage the middle pup.

So, simple deal right, he has a MIM Tele with the standard Alnico V pups from that era. 4 way switch, regular 'ol Fender wiring scheme. That has been how the guitar was set up some time ago and that all worked HONKY DORY.

So getting interest in a Nashville set up after hearing me brag about mine, he decides to make his a Nashville.

Those Tele pups are both North top. So he gets a USA STRAT middle, VERIFIED south top. This will give noise cancel with either the N & B. He was lucky and said the phase was right with the others with the white to the switch, red to ground, which is correct for that era AM Strat pup as well. Not that that means anything, it is just a coil connection, and could go either way.

Like soulman said, the 4 way WAS in the guitar, working fine. STANDARD Fender 4 way scheme.
Installed the middle pup, and a p/p pot, the p/p switch doing the "middle on"

This is how he has the p/p:

Thanks for posting this pardner. :mrgreen:

Yes, this is the exact wiring I'm using for the P/P Pot with one slight addition. There is a jumper going from the outer lug of this switch to the outer lug of the volume pot just as there is between a standard tone pot and the volume pot. Is that wire unnecessary in this scheme?

here she is :

Fender 4 way:

http://www.blueguitar.org/new/schem/_gtr/tele4way.jpg

There is a jumper going from the outer lug of this switch to the outer lug of the volume pot just as there is between a standard tone pot and the volume pot.[/COLOR][/U][/I] Is that wire unnecessary in this scheme?

I don't get what you are saying there ?? Saying there is an addition ??

You only have TWO wires on the p/p right ?? The SWITCH part.

Those pictured, BLACK AND BLUE ( or what ever you used)

You have to have a wire to the vol pot to send the signal (middle pup) there when you pull up on the knob. Is that what you are calling the "jumper"

Not having seen a wiring diagram with a schematic of the new switch, I'm sort of postulating blindly here, but here's what I think:

You say in position 4 with the middle pickup off the B and N are in series. You think the B/N reverts to parallel when the M is switched on. I think what you have here is a series/parallel circuit where the B/N are still in series but that combination is now in parallel with the M when the M is turned on. Assuming this is the case, you would normally sense some diminution of the B/N output at this time.

I suspect you're trying to get some Strat "quack" with the middle pickup. It just might be to your advantage to not use it when you have the switch in B/N series position and just use it when you have B only or N only selected, just like if you had a 5-way switch on the guitar.

As to the M pickup still having some output when supposedly "off", the pickup is still creating a signal when you move the strings even though it's deselected at the switch (actually it's electrically disconnected from the signal path). Sometimes if several unshielded wires are routed parallel (not to be confused with electrical "parallel") to one another a signal from one can induce a signal in other wires. This may be happening in your guitar. A solution may be to change the wire routing as much as you can to where the wires do not run parallel to one another. Hard to do in a limited space.

Another solution may be to use shielded wires from the middle pickup and ground the shields. That should absolutely eliminate any spurious signals.

Good luck and keep us posted!


That's exactly what's happening tf but the question is why? Nothing has happened to change the relationship of Neck to Bridge. In Pos. #4 they are wired in Series and operate in Series with the P/P off. That much I'm sure of. Introducing the Middle doesn't change that relationship. It's wired independently of the others and I would think that it would simply add it's tonal character to the mix. The Middle pickup doesn't effect the primary wiring of the 4-way. When the Middle wasn't there the 4-way did exactly what it was supposed to.

The only common connections are that black jumper sjtalon's pic shows that runs between the terminal D of the P/P Pot and the outer lug of the Volume Pot.

There is also a jumper connecting the top outer lug of the P/P Pot and that same outer lug of the Volume Pot. That connection exists when the regular Tone Pot and Volume Pot are used and I simply reattached it to the P/P Pot when I installed it.

So I ask again. Is that connection unnecessary with this wiring scheme and if so could that be creating the problem?

Sorry if I made this clear as mud before but I hope this does clarify things a bit. As I said before the 4-way is already in, wired as per the SD or Acme diagrams and was working fine. The P/P Pot is wired as per sjtalon's pic. It's the one he emailed to me that I went by. The ONLY addition is that other jumper between the two that I mentioned above.

Thanks for chipping in guys. As always your help and advice is invaluable to a neophyte like myself. It takes me a while to catch on to something and while playing them isn't new, wiring guitars is definitely something new to me. I'm one of those who learns best from the doing so your patience is much appreciated. Thanks to all. :grin:

NO....nothing is clarified, soulman. When you switch that middle pickup in with the #4 position, you are no longer just wired into the b/n series...you have added a coil that is changing the results of the circuit. Reread tfsails post above. You have 3 coils wired together when you bring that middle in with the #4 position. The reason that the sonics are made more different in this arrangement compared to the middle running with the #2 is that the #2 position has the B/N in parallel, and that arrangement acts differently with the middle than does the B/N series arrangement. Like tfsails said, you might not want to use the #4 with the middle pickup...unless you want that particular sound. In short, there is no way that the series humbucking wiring of the B/N in the #4 position is being changed...in and of itself. The middle pickup's addition to the circuit is yielding a new circuit and the resulting sound is different from the B/N #4 postion by itself. I tap on pickups to see if they are working. I listen to the instrument to hear what is going on. OR...put a multimeter on the output jack and go through your combinations...writing down the resistances as you go. Make a map....see what you find.
Positionss
#1 = ? resistance.....+ M = res.
#1 = resistance....+M = res.
#3 = resitance....+m = res.
#4 = resistance....+m = res.
Just as an exercise......

AS to 'sounds just like'.....many arrangements sound somewhat similar but have slightly different sonics. I once owned a Les Paul Cusotm with 4 push/pull. ON top of each of the 3 of those P/P pots, there was a terminal strip for connections. That guitar had...count 'em....33 combinations. There were some combinations that were very similar, but an experienced ear would be able to hear differences......and there were dfferences becasue no two combinations were identically wired. There had to be a difference. I have eleven pages of diagrams stapled together in case I want to reproduce that wiring scheme. There is a page for each pot. There is a page for each p/p switch, and there is a page for each terminal strip.

Goodl uck with it....rewire that middle p-up with some good shielded wiring like tfsails suggested...then play the guitar...like Frank Zappa urged us to do, right?

Don't know if soul is gone, so I have this:


NOTE: # 1 is BRIDGE pup. Also he has his probe on the p/p switch.

Middle Off: 6.04k
Middle On: #1 = 3.26, #2 = 2.32, #3 = 3.29, #4 = 4.15

These are the readings across terminals D, E, and F.

Switch Open: D-E = .02, E-F = no reading
Switch Closed: D-E = 19.07, E-F = .02

These are the resistance readings of the pickups themselves based on ones I took a month ago.

A V Bridge = 7.26
A V Middle = 6.06
A V Neck = 7.48

There is also a jumper connecting the top outer lug of the P/P Pot and that same outer lug of the Volume Pot. That connection exists when the regular Tone Pot and Volume Pot are used and I simply reattached it to the P/P Pot when I installed it.

So I ask again. Is that connection unnecessary with this wiring scheme and if so could that be creating the problem? :

Think of it this way; totally disregard the p/p pot switch wiring.

Those three terminals off the case of the POT would be wired JUST like ANY tone pot, one outer lead to the outer volume pot wire ( or inner if Fezz) like you have it, and the middle tone pot terminal to a cap. It has to be for the tone pot part of the p/p to function.

Soulman969 mentioned that the wiring of the two pickups, with the 4-way switch, was done with a different wiring. That may be the wild card, here, because the description of the middle pickup wiring is simple, and would appear to be correct.

Just to clarify, that was a different guitar. This 4 way IS STANDARD FENDER.


Thanks.

Side note:
SJTalon wrote: "ANY tone pot, one outer lead to the outer volume pot wire ( or inner if Fezz)"

Isn't this actually the Gibson '50's or '57 tone circuit....been around for over 60 years, right? This circuit has been called this since long before the TDPRI came into existence. How old is Fezz? Did he work with Seth Lover and Ted McCarty for Gibson back in the '50's??? IF so and if he designed this circuit, then I withdraw my observations and comments.
I respect the knowledge that Fezz has and shares, but imho this circuit should be called by its rightful name......the Gibson '57 tone circuit.....adn the acknowledgement of its origns continues instead of beign misappropriated by whatever cause. Just because this is a 'Tele/FEnder-dominant' forum
doesn't mean that proper acknowledgement of some other manufacturers'
accomplishments and contributions to the industry should be avoided.

End of rant....

Think of it this way; totally disregard the p/p pot switch wiring.

Those three terminals off the case of the POT would be wired JUST like ANY tone pot, one outer lead to the outer volume pot wire ( or inner if Fezz) like you have it, and the middle tone pot terminal to a cap. It has to be for the tone pot part of the p/p to function.

Gotcha, and that's what I thought. It made the most sense to me that part of the pot was no different than a regular pot so that's the way I treated it.

Thanks. That eliminates that possibility no matter how remote it seemed. Little by little I'm learning. :grin:

I don't get what you are saying there ?? Saying there is an addition ??

You only have TWO wires on the p/p right ?? The SWITCH part.

Those pictured, BLACK AND BLUE ( or what ever you used)

You have to have a wire to the vol pot to send the signal (middle pup) there when you pull up on the knob. Is that what you are calling the "jumper"


Yeah, you had it right in the post above. There are only those two wires your pic called for coming from the switch and they're wired as indicated. The other is the connection between the upper lug on the pot and and the lug on the volume pot.

So all is good. Nothing out of order. It may have been a foolish question but it was still part of the process of elimination. :grin:

I suspect you're trying to get some Strat "quack" with the middle pickup. It just might be to your advantage to not use it when you have the switch in B/N series position and just use it when you have B only or N only selected, just like if you had a 5-way switch on the guitar.

And that has dawned on me as the way to go tf. It's not so much that it's happening as trying to understand why just to add to my bank of knowledge. It's hard to know just what it will sound like until I restring it, set it up and plug it in. That's about where I'm at anyway. It may be more of an "out of phase" relationship and actually a very useful alternative, or maybe not and I just don't use it.

As to the M pickup still having some output when supposedly "off", the pickup is still creating a signal when you move the strings even though it's deselected at the switch (actually it's electrically disconnected from the signal path). Sometimes if several unshielded wires are routed parallel (not to be confused with electrical "parallel") to one another a signal from one can induce a signal in other wires. This may be happening in your guitar. A solution may be to change the wire routing as much as you can to where the wires do not run parallel to one another. Hard to do in a limited space.

Very limited.

The funny thing is that the only place that two sets of wiring are running exactly parallel to one another is in that channel where the Neck pickups wires are running. The Middle pickups wires must run through there as well and through the tunnel into the control cavity. Short of cutting another slot for them there's no other way. But, the Neck Only selection is the only one where the Middle is completely silent when it's switched off so apparently it's not affecting it. Go figure, LOL.

Another solution may be to use shielded wires from the middle pickup and ground the shields. That should absolutely eliminate any spurious signals.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Thanks tf. I think I'm just gonna put it all back together and play it then see what I've got. Time to let the ear override the electrons. The only way to pickup on nuances, if any, is gonna be that way and either I like it or I don't.

If not I always have the option of doing a rewiring using some different stuff. The main issue was just determining that I did have it wired correctly and I now know that I do. The results were a bit different than I expected so I just set out to see if I could find out why.

You've been a big help, thank you. :grin:

NO....nothing is clarified, soulman. When you switch that middle pickup in with the #4 position, you are no longer just wired into the b/n series...you have added a coil that is changing the results of the circuit. Reread tfsails post above. You have 3 coils wired together when you bring that middle in with the #4 position. The reason that the sonics are made more different in this arrangement compared to the middle running with the #2 is that the #2 position has the B/N in parallel, and that arrangement acts differently with the middle than does the B/N series arrangement. Like tfsails said, you might not want to use the #4 with the middle pickup...unless you want that particular sound. In short, there is no way that the series humbucking wiring of the B/N in the #4 position is being changed...in and of itself. The middle pickup's addition to the circuit is yielding a new circuit and the resulting sound is different from the B/N #4 postion by itself. I tap on pickups to see if they are working. I listen to the instrument to hear what is going on. OR...put a multimeter on the output jack and go through your combinations...writing down the resistances as you go. Make a map....see what you find.
Positionss
#1 = ? resistance.....+ M = res.
#1 = resistance....+M = res.
#3 = resitance....+m = res.
#4 = resistance....+m = res.
Just as an exercise......

AS to 'sounds just like'.....many arrangements sound somewhat similar but have slightly different sonics. I once owned a Les Paul Cusotm with 4 push/pull. ON top of each of the 3 of those P/P pots, there was a terminal strip for connections. That guitar had...count 'em....33 combinations. There were some combinations that were very similar, but an experienced ear would be able to hear differences......and there were dfferences becasue no two combinations were identically wired. There had to be a difference. I have eleven pages of diagrams stapled together in case I want to reproduce that wiring scheme. There is a page for each pot. There is a page for each p/p switch, and there is a page for each terminal strip.

Goodl uck with it....rewire that middle p-up with some good shielded wiring like tfsails suggested...then play the guitar...like Frank Zappa urged us to do, right?

Thanks Wally. I may skip the rewiring for the moment but setting it up and playing it is exactly what I had in mind anyway. I may actually like what I hear.

I got a lot out of this from all of you. I guess the part that I was missing is based on what I highlighted above. Since they're wired to separate switches I was expecting that the Middle would have no effect on the B/N Series except to add it's own singular tonality to it. From what you're telling me it actually creates another relationship between the three entirely and one that may well be somewhat different than I get when I add the Middle to B/N Parallel. That's useful knowledge for a guy who's a bit new to this whole process. I was questioning this to find out of this was the case. Thanks.

I did run some readings, and sjtalon posted them, but I have yet to sit down and digest them and completely understand what they're telling me. For that I'd need to dig out some old notes on that subject that I just haven't had the time to do this week. But I will. For me it's a learning process and I accomplish that best by doing. When I run in to an unexpected result I ask why and I've found no better place to get those answers than from the members here. I've been playing for over 35 years but only modifying guitars for about 6 months so the innards are new to me even though I've been doing my own setups longer than I can remember.

Thanks for contributing your expertise which I can see is significant. The more I learn the more I can pass on to others in a similar boat to the one I'm in. :grin:

Side note:
SJTalon wrote: "ANY tone pot, one outer lead to the outer volume pot wire ( or inner if Fezz)"

Isn't this actually the Gibson '50's or '57 tone circuit....been around for over 60 years, right? This circuit has been called this since long before the TDPRI came into existence. How old is Fezz? Did he work with Seth Lover and Ted McCarty for Gibson back in the '50's??? IF so and if he designed this circuit, then I withdraw my observations and comments.
I respect the knowledge that Fezz has and shares, but imho this circuit should be called by its rightful name......the Gibson '57 tone circuit.....adn the acknowledgement of its origns continues instead of beign misappropriated by whatever cause. Just because this is a 'Tele/FEnder-dominant' forum doesn't mean that proper acknowledgement of some other manufacturers' accomplishments and contributions to the industry should be avoided.

End of rant....

Wally I don't think those accomplishments or contributions are being avoided intentionally. It's described that way by most posters around here for expedience since that term, "Fezz Mod", is what posters here know it by. With all due respect to you, I don't think your opinion of what it "should" be called would change that.

In this case sjtalon was responding to my question and using a terminology both he and I are familiar with. I understood what he was telling me and that's all that was really important as it relates to his post.

If you called it the "Gibson 57 Tone Circuit" I wouldn't know what you were talking about without a specific explanation and I'd venture to guess many others would not either, but we do know what the "Fezz Mod" is. Whenever Fezz responds to a post where that term is used even he disclaims any ownership of that idea himself so I don't see anyone stealing anyone's else's thunder as far as the use of that terminology is concerned.

JMHO.

Again thanks to all for your contributions and advice. Right now all I have to do is pop the control plate back in and fasten it down. It's all working so now the question is exactly how and what does it sound like.

Tomorrow I'll restring do a setup and find out. Once I do I'll give an update on what I get and whether it stays that way or I do more rewiring as per tfsails suggestion.

It's a learning process so thanks for sticking with me on this. :grin:

Side note:
SJTalon wrote: "ANY tone pot, one outer lead to the outer volume pot wire ( or inner if Fezz)"

Isn't this actually the Gibson '50's or '57 tone circuit....been around for over 60 years, right? This circuit has been called this since long before the TDPRI came into existence. How old is Fezz? Did he work with Seth Lover and Ted McCarty for Gibson back in the '50's??? IF so and if he designed this circuit, then I withdraw my observations and comments.
I respect the knowledge that Fezz has and shares, but imho this circuit should be called by its rightful name......the Gibson '57 tone circuit.....adn the acknowledgement of its origns continues instead of beign misappropriated by whatever cause. Just because this is a 'Tele/FEnder-dominant' forum
doesn't mean that proper acknowledgement of some other manufacturers'
accomplishments and contributions to the industry should be avoided.

End of rant....

You seriously need to lighten up Wally. I learned this mod from Ted Greene 25 years ago. I've never called it the "Fezz Mod", nor have I ever claimed that I came up with it. Such pedantic and narrow minded views would have us calling all of our amplifiers "Western Electric's" or "circuit courtesy of the RCA Tube Manual".
We're a bunch of guys having a conversation, not giving a dissertation. There's absolutely no need for your post above, other than to give a cheap shot. I thought you may have been better than that. Obviously you're not.

Well here's the final summation on the conversion of my MIM to a Nashville.

When I put it back together, restrung it and plugged it in it was obvious that I had the Middle pickup wired out of phase even though it didn't sound that way while I was simply tapping on the pickups as I cycled through the settings. Wally your advice about "sounds like" was spot on. Playing it revealed the flaw so I just reversed the wiring for the Middle pickup and all was as it should be. Thank you.

I also found that Pos. #4 will only run in Parallel once the Middle is in the circuit so again Wally and tfsails, you guys were correct. Even though it's separately wired through it's own switch the introduction of that RW/RP coil does have an effect on the circuit itself. As best I can tell the sound is the same as B/M/N in Parallel so wired this way I'm gonna assume that's the only relationship that can be created by the introduction of the Middle. So that question is resolved and not a big deal as far as I'm concerned. The B/N Series is still there when the Middle is off and probably more useful in that combination anyway. Thanks for that thought tf.

Steve thanks for posting the pic and for chiming in with an explanation or two when I couldn't get back on here for a few days. As I said in my email I believe I may have screwed up when I checked the pickup leads with the meter and reversed them initially when I soldered them in. If I was better at interpreting those meter readings I might have realized that. More to learn there but playing it revealed that problem immediately and 5 minutes of soldering to reverse the wires took care of that "out of phase" issue you clued me into to begin with. Thanks for the heads up.

The only remaining mystery is why there is still a very weak output from the Middle pickup even with it switched off. That much I can tell by simply tapping on it. It may be an issue with the proximity of wiring and the shielding as tf suggested but it seems to have little or no effect on the tonality of any of the standard 4-way settings so I'm not even gonna worry about it. If it's in the mix it's so minor that I can't even tell it's there.

So I'm happy to report that in addition to the original 4-way settings I now have three more settings with all of the "quack attack" I was looking for when I began this conversion and the sound is great. That Strat Middle is a good match for the Alnico V's that are already in there. Now I have a nice combination of mellowness and twang along with some great "Strat like" selections to boot and I added another variation on a theme to my Tele herd.

Guys thanks for all of your help and your patience with a guy who's still in "learner mode" but progressively understanding more about this stuff and getting much better at it with each attempt. Since I need just one more Tele before I quit :roll: :mrgreen: next up should be an Esquire conversion. I'm betting that one will go without a single hitch. :grin:

Thanks again!

Soulman, kudos for stickign with it and coming to terms with whawt is going on there. AS for the leakage, I have a book by Donal Brosnac..'Guitar Electronics for Musicians' in which he makes mention of the posibility.occurrence of small leakage in multiple pickup arrangements. I'll try to reread adn find it, but IIRC it was not a major concern...especially if you don't hear in a playing situation, right? Shielding is always a good thing...both of the cavtities and of the lead wiring, imo.

Soulman, kudos for stickign with it and coming to terms with whawt is going on there. AS for the leakage, I have a book by Donal Brosnac..'Guitar Electronics for Musicians' in which he makes mention of the posibility.occurrence of small leakage in multiple pickup arrangements. I'll try to reread adn find it, but IIRC it was not a major concern...especially if you don't hear in a playing situation, right? Shielding is always a good thing...both of the cavtities and of the lead wiring, imo.

Yeah Wally, if that Middle is in the mix when it's off it's inaudible to my ears and even if it is there it's just adding another tiny bit of flavor that makes this guitar sound a little different than the others.

Of course the difference in the pickups and the bridges on the others is already providing most of that anyway but that was the idea between all of them to begin with. The reason I took the A V's out the CVC and put Keystones in was to separate it tonally from this MIM which also had A V's.

If there's a current leakage it may becoming from the wiring I used to extend the leads on the Middle pickup. In order to fit them through that tunnel along with the leads from the neck I had to use a very small gauge wire and it may not be shielded sufficiently for this kind of use.

Next time I get ambitious I may just enlarge that tunnel a bit and replace those lead extensions with a heavier guage wire with thicker shielding but for now as you and Frank Zappa suggested I'm just gonna play it and explore what I can get out of it. I have some guitar tracks to lay down for a friend and I'm anxious to use this one to do it.

Thanks again for the help and advice. I love the expertise of the long term members around here like yourself. There's very little a guy can't learn if he knows the right questions to ask of the right people. :grin: