P/P Switch Wiring

I want to use just 1 vol p/p pot and 3 way switch on my cabrinita style project , could i use this as a simple alternative , this is my first attempt at making my own wiring

The way you have drawn that, the cap is connected to the cold lug of the pot in both positions and you disconnect the ground connection in one of them to send entire signal through the cap. The vol pot is wired "backwards" with input to the wiper instead of the top lug (this causes a loss of tone as the load drops). To see what is happening, you need to draw this out as a circuit diagram instead of a layout schematic, see attached PDF

You either have a volume control or a tone control, not both?
I'm not sure if that is usable, but it is doable - you need to re-think your switch wiring.

IMHO even a concentric pot would be 1400% more usable

The question here is... What is the goal of your switching?

The question here is... What is the goal of your switching?

To use a push/pull switch as vol and tone and a 3 way switch thought about using a stacked pot but it's too chunky i want to keep the look simple 1 knob 1 switch

The way you have drawn that, the cap is connected to the cold lug of the pot in both positions and you disconnect the ground connection in one of them to send entire signal through the cap. The vol pot is wired "backwards" with input to the wiper instead of the top lug (this causes a loss of tone as the load drops). To see what is happening, you need to draw this out as a circuit diagram instead of a layout schematic, see attached PDF

You either have a volume control or a tone control, not both?
I'm not sure if that is usable, but it is doable - you need to re-think your switch wiring.

Got this to use in my wiring from Stew Mac , so you say it's wired wrong ?

It's cuckoo.

Vol = Hot from pickup goes to top lug. Wiper to output. Bottom lug to ground
Tone = hot from pickup goes to top lug and to output, wiper goes to cap and cap goes to ground. Bottom lug n/c.
Need to swap a few wires about or the volume will do a tone control as you roll it off.
And you have no can/case ground with that layout.
I can visualise electronic circuit diagrams not these weird layout schematics.

22nF with humbuckers or 47nF for tele ;)

I think maybe "Hot from pickup or selector switch" and "Hot to output jack" should be exchanged for one another... but i don't know.. you think about it

It does say at the start of this thread " first attempt at doing my own wiring " , so i was hoping to get some help , if it does'nt work , ok , perhaps someone will jump in a give me a clue how to make this work

The StewMac diagram should work... I'll try to post a clearer schematic of it that is easier to trace this evening when I get home from work.

Found this link that's the same wiring as the Stew Mac example

http://www.ehow.com/how_12164407_wire-pushpull-potentiometer.html

As i'm only using 1 vol control the switch wiring i drew must be right

OK... First a quick discussion of how volume controls work. Here are the 2 most common ways of wiring a volume control (the tone controls are not shown for clarity):

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Kwm7N0GbLAk/UAoA48tsXLI/AAAAAAAAANk/4X_CHEIZ3jU/s356/VolumePotWiring.jpg

The top drawing is the standard "Fender" way of doing it. You basically connect your pickup's output across the length of the potentiometer, then you just use the slider to pick off the signal level you want. Pretty basic. Works great...

Until...

Someone comes along and decides to design a guitar with a volume control for each pickup. If you use the top circuit, and wire two of them together, when you turn either one all the way down, you are grounding the output. Doesn't matter how the other pot is set... all the amp sees is ground.

To get around this, somebody decided to swap the in and out connections and wire it up backwards. Without getting too technical here, it's kind of a wonky, kludgy circuit... but... it works well enough that most people don't mind! If you turn one pot all the way down, you still get output from the other.

Now, here's the StewMac circuit, redrawn as a schematic to make it easier to follow the signal flow (I like to try to do it without any crossing lines and left-to-right signal flow to more clearly visualize what's happening):

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-mVP5T73T_i8/UAoA5tV_n5I/AAAAAAAAANs/IGD5kcZjoLk/s400/StewMacRedrawn.jpg

As you can see, StewMac used the second type of volume control. That means if you use two of these circuits to control 2 pickups, it will still work. The disadvantage that I see with this circuit is that in Tone mode, as you turn your tone down, you are also putting more of the pot in series with your output... which means you are also turning your volume down.

Now... Here's how I would wire it if I were going to do this with a single pot with a push-pull switch:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Br-yXvniUro/UAoA6X7eGUI/AAAAAAAAAN0/yQmYxfzHnfE/s380/Improved.jpg

As you can see, I've gone back to the standard "Fender" master Volume style of wiring, and when I'm in Tone mode, it's not going to also decrease volume as I turn it down.

There's nothing wrong with using the StewMac circuit. I'd just prefer mine for this application!

Hope this helps!

Jim (Not sure why I've been drawn to wiring problems lately!)

I think it might be more useful to have the pull switch just engage a preset tone setting (high rolloff), and have the knob always control volume.

I think it might be more useful to have the pull switch just engage a preset tone setting (high rolloff), and have the knob always control volume.

Yep... that would be a good way to go also... and you'd only need 2 terminals on the switch!

OK... First a quick discussion of how volume controls work. Here are the 2 most common ways of wiring a volume control (the tone controls are not shown for clarity):

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Kwm7N0GbLAk/UAoA48tsXLI/AAAAAAAAANk/4X_CHEIZ3jU/s356/VolumePotWiring.jpg

The top drawing is the standard "Fender" way of doing it. You basically connect your pickup's output across the length of the potentiometer, then you just use the slider to pick off the signal level you want. Pretty basic. Works great...

Until...

Someone comes along and decides to design a guitar with a volume control for each pickup. If you use the top circuit, and wire two of them together, when you turn either one all the way down, you are grounding the output. Doesn't matter how the other pot is set... all the amp sees is ground.

To get around this, somebody decided to swap the in and out connections and wire it up backwards. Without getting too technical here, it's kind of a wonky, kludgy circuit... but... it works well enough that most people don't mind! If you turn one pot all the way down, you still get output from the other.

Now, here's the StewMac circuit, redrawn as a schematic to make it easier to follow the signal flow (I like to try to do it without any crossing lines and left-to-right signal flow to more clearly visualize what's happening):

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-mVP5T73T_i8/UAoA5tV_n5I/AAAAAAAAANs/IGD5kcZjoLk/s400/StewMacRedrawn.jpg

As you can see, StewMac used the second type of volume control. That means if you use two of these circuits to control 2 pickups, it will still work. The disadvantage that I see with this circuit is that in Tone mode, as you turn your tone down, you are also putting more of the pot in series with your output... which means you are also turning your volume down.

Now... Here's how I would wire it if I were going to do this with a single pot with a push-pull switch:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Br-yXvniUro/UAoA6X7eGUI/AAAAAAAAAN0/yQmYxfzHnfE/s380/Improved.jpg

As you can see, I've gone back to the standard "Fender" master Volume style of wiring, and when I'm in Tone mode, it's not going to also decrease volume as I turn it down.

There's nothing wrong with using the StewMac circuit. I'd just prefer mine for this application!

Hope this helps!

Jim (Not sure why I've been drawn to wiring problems lately!)


Jim--
Am I missing something? In both your and the Stewmac schematic, it looks tp me like when switched with the throw up (on the diagrams), the signal enters at "in", encounters the resistance of the pot, and flows completely past the rntire circuit to the V terminal in the SM redrawn and to the T terminal, and then in both cases, directly to the out jack. Straight through. Is this the intent?

Redevo, your intent is not clear. If you're shooting for switching one pot to be both V and T, as in, adjust the pot for tone, then push/pull it to switch the pot to volume, (while it holds your tone setting), its not possible.

If I'm reading it right, Jim's circuit is about as close as you'll get, but when you select adjustability with the pot for the one function, you'll lose the setting for the other.

Oh, yeah, I forgot--high impedence.:oops:

Jim--
Am I missing something? In both your and the Stewmac schematic, it looks tp me like when switched with the throw up (on the diagrams), the signal enters at "in", encounters the resistance of the pot, and flows completely past the rntire circuit to the V terminal in the SM redrawn and to the T terminal, and then in both cases, directly to the out jack. Straight through. Is this the intent?


Yes, that's exactly right. However, the higher frequencies are bled off through the pot resistance and the capacitor. You'll note that the pot and capacitor in series run from the straight-through signal path to ground. (That's how a tone control works... by varying the resistance of the pot, you vary the amount of high frequencies bled off.)

Redevo, your intent is not clear. If you're shooting for switching one pot to be both V and T, as in, adjust the pot for tone, then push/pull it to switch the pot to volume, (while it holds your tone setting), its not possible.

In the "T" position, it works as a tone only control with no volume control.

In the "V" position, it works as a volume only control with no tone control.

Completely separate functions depending on switch position.

In the "T" position, it works as a tone only control with no volume control.

In the "V" position, it works as a volume only control with no tone control.

Completely separate functions depending on switch position.

Sorry guys should have explained more , i know you can't have adjustable vol and tone from a p/p pot as when you pull up it's just a switch and not a pot , i'm looking for a vol and and when you pull up a change in in tone like a simplified S1 switch , looked at the S1 switch but you can only get the 250k in the UK and have a luthier wire it , but i'm not learning that way so i thought i'd start with a simple setup that i can do my self

Oh... well, that should be simple. Just wire the pot portion as a normal volume control. Then wire 1 pole of the switch to switch in a capacitor or a capacitor-resistor-in-series across the output when you pull it out.

Oh... well, that should be simple. Just wire the pot portion as a normal volume control. Then wire 1 pole of the switch to switch in a capacitor or a capacitor-resistor-in-series across the output when you pull it out.

I'm sure it's very simple but it's only simple if you know how to do it , as i've never wired a vol pot and i've 6 different wiring diagrams in front of me and all the vol pots are all wired differently with one common 1st lug goes to middle lug on tone pot , some have middle lug vol pot to hot jack plug , 2 have middle lug vol pot as input from 3 way toggle switch , one has centre from 3 way to first lug on tone pot another has centre of 3 way to hot on jack plug , all very confusing to a novice like me .

As every one said my wiring would'nt work , perhaps someone would like to make me a diagram from the pic below that will work .

3 4 5 6 will be the switch down as a vol control , 1 2 3 4 will be switch up as a fixed tone with a cap the value is yet to be determined ?

You picked an interesting project for a first wiring job ! :!::lol::!:
Anyhoo, here's a sketch based on jimdkc's circuit. I think I got everything consolidated right--maybe somebody could check behind me--

OK... Here you go...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xrS5cVOwmZc/UAs7HT8yRcI/AAAAAAAAAOA/DVuBJC7aWa0/s700/Vol%252BSwCap.jpg

All grounds go back to a common point... usually pot case... but you might want to add a star ground point. Don't forget you need a ground to the bridge, also!

Working with a drawing like this can be confusing... that said: If the volume control works backwards, swap connections at A and C. If the push-pull works backwards, move the cap from 6 to 2. (Edit: Pretty sure the cap needs to go to 2!)

Also... not sure I read your output jack correctly... ground goes to the sleeve connection... signal goes to the tip connection...

It does say at the start of this thread " first attempt at doing my own wiring " , so i was hoping to get some help , if it does'nt work , ok , perhaps someone will jump in a give me a clue how to make this work

I did that and provided diagrams too.


jimdkc's "THIS!" is the one to use.

Thanks guys great diagrams both very different one thing concerns me is where to put all the grounds ? as there's no base to solder them to could i take a jumper from the vol pot to the side of the case of the switch part , say in Jim's diagram fold back first lug (a) and solder to pot when solder a wire from this to the case of the switch , there's 8 grounds to solder somewhere

Then there's the question of what type and value of Cap to use , Mylar , Orange Drops , 0.22 or 0.47 or a different value

In R. Stratenstein's diagram am i right i'm thinking what the Cap works in both positions ? when it's down in Vol position and up in the Tone position and in jimdkc's diagram it will only work when you pull the switch to Tone position at the moment the Caps on 6 which is Vol so if i move it to 2 which will be Tone position when i pull up .

Cap value... I'd experiment and figure out what sounds best to you. 0.022 or 0.047 are good starting points. Value could be anywhere from .001 to 1 microfarads. The higher the value, the more high frequency will be bled off and the darker and muddier it will sound.

And you can use just about any kind of cap you want. Orange drops are a good quality product in my opinion... but there's nothing really magic about them!

For grounding, what I'd do is find someplace to put a screw and run all the grounds to that. You could get some solder lugs (3 or 4 would be enough) solder the wires to them then screw them down with the screw.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-AVZarqRmkOg/UAvr-e0gQ7I/AAAAAAAAAOQ/wtiMyszEMJU/s225/lug.jpg

Thanks guys great diagrams both very different one thing concerns me is where to put all the grounds ? as there's no base to solder them to could i take a jumper from the vol pot to the side of the case of the switch part , say in Jim's diagram fold back first lug (a) and solder to pot when solder a wire from this to the case of the switch , there's 8 grounds to solder somewhere

Then there's the question of what type and value of Cap to use , Mylar , Orange Drops , 0.22 or 0.47 or a different value

In R. Stratenstein's diagram am i right i'm thinking what the Cap works in both positions ? when it's down in Vol position and up in the Tone position and in jimdkc's diagram it will only work when you pull the switch to Tone position at the moment the Caps on 6 which is Vol so if i move it to 2 which will be Tone position when i pull up .

There is an obvious earth solder-pin on the tail of the p/p switch :!:

47nf for a telecaster or 22nF for humbuckers

"Orange-drop" and Mylar are both polyester.

Top quality capacitors cost as much as 15 pence each
http://www.cricklewoodelectronics.com/Cricklewood/product.php?productid=1965&cat=150&page=1

Do not get ripped off on capacitors - buy from electronics suppliers.

There is an obvious earth solder-pin on the tail of the p/p switch :!:

47nf for a telecaster or 22nF for humbuckers

"Orange-drop" and Mylar are both polyester.

Top quality capacitors cost as much as 15 pence each
http://www.cricklewoodelectronics.com/Cricklewood/product.php?productid=1965&cat=150&page=1

Do not get ripped off on capacitors - buy from electronics suppliers.

Not obvious to me as i've nothing to look at yet , so lose the attitude , just because i don't have a degree in electronics does'nt make me a idiot so don't talk to me as if i am

£2.50 to send a 15p Cap and that's not a rip off

Cap value... I'd experiment and figure out what sounds best to you. 0.022 or 0.047 are good starting points. Value could be anywhere from .001 to 1 microfarads. The higher the value, the more high frequency will be bled off and the darker and muddier it will sound.

And you can use just about any kind of cap you want. Orange drops are a good quality product in my opinion... but there's nothing really magic about them!

For grounding, what I'd do is find someplace to put a screw and run all the grounds to that. You could get some solder lugs (3 or 4 would be enough) solder the wires to them then screw them down with the screw.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-AVZarqRmkOg/UAvr-e0gQ7I/AAAAAAAAAOQ/wtiMyszEMJU/s225/lug.jpg


Good idea thanks , take a tag from the vol pot and screw this to the body , what about the end of the Cap where to solder that .

Forgot to add what value "v" would be best thinking of getting a 0.15 and a 0.22 as a starting point .

There is an obvious earth solder-pin on the tail of the p/p switch :!:

47nf for a telecaster or 22nF for humbuckers

"Orange-drop" and Mylar are both polyester.

Top quality capacitors cost as much as 15 pence each
http://www.cricklewoodelectronics.com/Cricklewood/product.php?productid=1965&cat=150&page=1

Do not get ripped off on capacitors - buy from electronics suppliers.
I'd put money on those not being real Orange Drop caps - Orange Drop is the registered trademark of Vishay Sprague/SBE, not a generic name for orange poly caps.

Good idea thanks , take a tag from the vol pot and screw this to the body , what about the end of the Cap where to solder that .

Forgot to add what value "v" would be best thinking of getting a 0.15 and a 0.22 as a starting point .

The leg of the cap that is grounded is also soldered to that (ground) terminal, or a jumper you've soldered to the housing of the pot, or where ever you choose to consolidate your grounds. If there is a ground lug on the p/p switch, it's probably small, but could serve as an "anchor" point for a jumper to which all the other grounds are soldered. I think I have at least one P/P switch/pot combo that does not have the ground, though, can't remember what brand it is. Important thing is just to make sure you have a good connection between all the grounds in the circuit.

Orange Drop (the name brand) has been discontinued, so if you find them, they tend to be expensive due to their "cachet". Like the ones rolled by hand out of old pre-wwII oil-soaked newspapers by Romanian women, and hand seasoned in special vaults for 30 years to be sold as having special guitar tonal qualities. :roll: A cheap disk cap is plenty adequate, and you can order a dozen or more from an electronics supply house for the price of a botique cap or probably even an Orange Drop. The ones in the link provided by jfrs are just fine, also, although I have some reservations about a supplier who misleads intentionally or no, by using a desirable trademarked name to describe a product that is only the same color.

The Orang Drop line is certainly not discontinued.
Brief History
SB Electronics is a former Sprague Electric manufacturing plant. In 1986 SBE purchased the equipment and process specifications from Sprague to continue the manufacturing of high quality film capacitors. We remain located in the same building where we manufacture the Orange Drop®.
SB Electronics manufactures product for sale to the OEM market, these units are marked with our logo, SBE. We also continue to manufacture the Orange Drop® for Sprague marked with their trademark symbol.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:2DQLJI69sFAJ:orangedrop.sbelectroni cs.com/sprague_distributors.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a
http://www.sbelectronics.com/standard-products/
IMO the reason they are higher priced than other similar caps is two-fold; US based manufacture and brand recognition.

Cap values are 100v , 200v , 400v , my supplier of guitar parts sells the ones listed below in orange drop

0.15 100v
0.22 100v 400v
0.33 100v

So which is best 100v or 400 v, or find another supplier who does 200v as well .

The voltages you're dealing with coming from a guitar pickup are around 1 to 5 volts max. Any of those will work (actually they are all overkill!) Orange drop capacitors were originally designed as high voltage caps. They probably made it into guitars because they were frequently used in tube amplifiers, so they were readily available.

You're really going for dark and muddy, eh?

The voltages you're dealing with coming from a guitar pickup are around 1 to 5 volts max. Any of those will work (actually they are all overkill!) Orange drop capacitors were originally designed as high voltage caps. They probably made it into guitars because they were frequently used in tube amplifiers, so they were readily available.

You're really going for dark and muddy, eh?

No i hope not i want i want it crisp and clear , i'm not putting all 3 together i'm buying 3 different values to try 1 at a time .

The reason I said that is the values you chose. Most guitars use a 0.022 or 0.047 microfarad capacitor in the tone circuit. As you turn the tone pot down, you are rolling off more and more high frequencies (a passive tone control can only take away, it cannot add). All the way down you have the capacitor directly across the signal. This is what my switching arrangement does: pull and you put the capacitor directly across the signal.

You chose capacitor values an order of magnitude larger in value. You're rolling off 10x more high frequencies! You're rolling off not just treble frequencies... you're well into mid-frequency range. You're gonna be way down in the mud!

A value or .022 or .047 is going to sound like a normal tone pot bottomed out. If you want darker and muddier, use a higher value. If you want brighter, use a smaller value.

What exact value to use? I can't tell you. You're gonna have to judge that yourself, but use a value like 0.022 or 0.047 as a starting point. If you want darker, try 0.1... brighter, try 0.01.

If a darker sound is not what you want, then this switching arrangement is probably not really what you want, either!

I'm getting to understand this now , so i've i put a 0.022 cap in and pulled the switchup it would sound like a normal tele with humbuckers with tone pot off but if i used a 0.015 and pulled the switch up it would sound brighter .

OK... Here you go...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xrS5cVOwmZc/UAs7HT8yRcI/AAAAAAAAAOA/DVuBJC7aWa0/s700/Vol%252BSwCap.jpg

This diagram is what I would use but as others have said, using a high value capacitor will give quite a dark sound, which may be what you want.

I'd use something close to 0.0022μF which would just take the top off the treble, like the Esquire "cocked wah" mod.

I'm getting to understand this now , so i've i put a 0.022 cap in and pulled the switchup it would sound like a normal tele with humbuckers with tone pot off but if i used a 0.015 and pulled the switch up it would sound brighter .

ding... ding... ding... ding... ding!

Give that man a cigar!

Edit... Wait... Wait... Wait... Let me make absolutely sure you understand this... No value of cap you can put in the "pull" position will make it sound brighter than the "push" position (no cap at all). The function of a cap is to roll off treble. The 0.015 will sound brighter than the 0.022, but neither of those will sound brighter than no cap! A cap removes brightness.

It looks like 50's Esquires used 0.05 microfarad cap in series with a 3.3K resistor.

Esquire Service Diagram (http://support.fender.com/service_diagrams/telecaster/013-1502A_SISD.pdf)

The popular "cocked wah" modification typically uses a 0.005 microfarad cap.

Experiment.

Thanks jimdkc i did'nt doubt you for a minute , i emailed the diagrams to Steve and he confirmed yours was the best to use

The popular "cocked wah" modification typically uses a 0.005 microfarad cap.
Oops that's what I meant! :oops:

Not obvious to me as i've nothing to look at yet , so lose the attitude , just because i don't have a degree in electronics does'nt make me a idiot so don't talk to me as if i am

£2.50 to send a 15p Cap and that's not a rip off

Steady on now, you yourself posted a pic of the pot/switch at post#6
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/attachments/tele-home-depot/135665d1342800417-p-p-switch-wiring-ts0112volumetone-jpg
The ground is the one at the back (with nothing connected to it).
For p/p pots try http://www.axesrus.com/axeElectronicsPots.htm#MiscPots

And it costs about £2.50 to send an empty jiffy bag in the post these days. So don't buy one capacitor, buy a selection and some spares.

I would not be at all surprised if Cricklewood's orange or blue drops were Vishay because they are one of the largest manufacturers in the world. In any case they sound the same. Btw you do get fast delivery from Cricklewood.

Personally I'd go for the somewhat more expensive audiophile polyester at a 80p each. They are a trifle less noisy than the Sprague perhaps. Noise from the guitar electronics mostly depends a lot on how short, neat and tidy you can make the wiring. The higher voltage rating just means longer thicker wire as far as a guitar tone cap is concerned because you'd be lucky to get as much as 2Vrms out of a pair of the most rabid humbuckers. Thicker wire means stronger wire and guitars do get bashed about and so wires fall off in compliance with Murphy's Law, when it is least convenient.
http://www.cricklewoodelectronics.com/Cricklewood/product.php?productid=1983&cat=151&page=1
http://www.cricklewoodelectronics.com/Cricklewood/image.php?type=P&id=1983
(generic polyester cap pic)

The Orang Drop line is certainly not discontinued.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:2DQLJI69sFAJ:orangedrop.sbelectroni cs.com/sprague_distributors.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a
http://www.sbelectronics.com/standard-products/
IMO the reason they are higher priced than other similar caps is two-fold; US based manufacture and brand recognition.


Sorry, I stand corrected. My information came from my recollection of this:

http://torresengineering.stores.yahoo.net/topqualcapre.html

Not sure what the hell they were talking about at Torres Engineering, but I certainly see now that orange drops are available, (but still a bit more expensive).

Just thought I'd bump this thread with some news - SBE have sold the Orange Drop line to Cornell Dubilier
http://www.sbelectronics.com/2012/10/sbe-announces-the-sale-of-the-orange-drop-product-line-to-cornell-dubilier-cde/
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/10/prweb9965785.htm
For the time being production stays at the SBE plant but will move to "other CDE manufacturing locations.” I wonder how long until they move manufacturing out of the US?
I also wonder if CDE will continue to manufacture Orange Drops for Vishay or if all future Orange Drop caps will be CDE branded and the "Sprague Orange Drop" name will disappear (Vishay-Sprague/Sprague Barre Electric)?

My experience in the electronics industry tells me that Cornell Dubilier will be a good home for this product line.