Simple, Cheap Pickup Winder [Archive] - Telecaster Guitar Forum

R. Stratenstein

July 17th, 2012, 06:29 PM

There are a couple of good pickup winding/winder threads going right now, guitarbuilder's "Lets Make a Pickup" and Barncaster's "A New Pickup Winder Scratch Build." They're both excellent resources for pickup winder ideas, and winding itself, too.

I've been pretty impressed by Barncaster's research and implementation of a small DC motor powered winder, with the bobbin holder mounted directly to the motor shaft, and a variable voltage supply used to control speed. This does away with all the intermediate shafts, belts, pulleys, bearings and their need for precision alignment, plus saves a lot of space over the "classic" state of the art home made winders that use an old sewing machine.

Problem is, although the DC motors are cheap enough on ebay ($6-$20 range, depending on voltage, shaft size, geared speed, etc.), the variable power supply is fairly expensive, in the $60-90 range. Several of the posts on Barncaster's thread asked about alternative designs, components, etc. to save some money.

I thought of this idea too late to try it out myself, I already ordered the components similar to Barncaster's, but the idea occurred to me (don't remember if it was in the shower or not), what if it could be battery powered?:idea:

Speed control is highly desirable for a smooth start, and running at a reasonable speed. A resistance type speed control (rheostat) would work, but really waste battery power, and kill batteries prematurely.

My idea is to use multiple batteries linked in series to provide maximum voltage when all together, but tapped between each battery (1.5 volt batteries used), so that although there is not a continuously variable speed, there are 8 speed positions available, which in theory, could provide for a smooth, low-torque and non-wire-breaking startup, on up to full voltage. I used a 12 volt motor in my example, as the 16 batteries necessary to fully power a 24 volt motor seems a bit excessive, but could be done.

In rough numbers, assuming the motor cost $10, you pay a buck each for Duracells (D size) there's $8 bucks, $5 bucks or so for the reversing switch (completely optional, though), and $15-$20 for the rotary switch (or make a simple blade-and button switch that looks like my diagram), the basic components as shown would cost you about $40., plus wires, some scrap wood to mount everything, etc. A while back I helped one of my sons do a science fair project and we used split PVC pipe with strips of "tin" cans superglued in for contacts, for low-cost battery holders. Or for not a heck of a lot more, you could buy them at Radio Shack, etc.

I'm not sure about battery life. I don't think pickup winder motors have to work too terribly hard, and wouldn't demand a lot of current, but if it turns out that the batteries can't handle it, another 8 could be paralleled to the existing 8 to increase amperage capacity.

Like I said, I've already ordered up the power supply and motor, so I'm going the more expensive route, but for those who are only going to wind a couple of pups (like we suspect we may have to for next years' Challenge), I think this could have potential for a low cost approach. Think it would work?:?:

guitarbuilder

July 17th, 2012, 06:39 PM

fezz parka

July 17th, 2012, 06:42 PM

Sewing machine, reed switch, calculator, carpet tape.

R. Stratenstein

July 17th, 2012, 06:55 PM

Cool... What about using ones that you can recharge or maybe a lantern battery for pedal to the metal? I am thinking once you know what your doing with this stuff, you are only winding about 10 minutes per pickup. Actually what about taking apart a rechargeable drill for the motor,chuck, and battery connections?
This is variable up to 650 RPM or roughly 12.5 minutes per strat pickup.
http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-17191-19.2-volt-c3-cordless-drill-driver/p-00917191000P?&prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=L1

Seems like I read about rechargeable batteries not having a lot of "oomph" for some high-draw applications, but wouldnt hurt to try. I thought about lantern batteries for power, but part of what I was trying to accomplish was to establish several voltage points below max, to try and approximate as much as possible, a variable-voltage supply.

Disassembling an electric drill is a possibility (or just using one as is, with a bobbin holder chucked in the chuck)--many of them are already rechargeable, have variable speed triggers (controls), and can be had for cheap on Craig's list, ebay, or even new 18-volt models from Harbor Freight at various times for around $20, including the charger.

R. Stratenstein

July 17th, 2012, 06:59 PM

Sewing machine, reed switch, calculator, carpet tape.

Know what you're sayin, Fezz, no telling how many 1000's, maybe millions have been wound exactly like that. One of the things I was trying to address is the sloppy and sometimes jerky speed control of your typical sewing machine foot pedal. Not sure that my concept would be any smoother, but was just some blue-sky thinking for those who are interested in trying the DC motor approach as cheaply as possible.

Davecam48

July 17th, 2012, 08:45 PM

I'd look at using a car battery and a trickle charger. You can leave the charger connected and operating if you wanted to as the battery will regulate the output voltage but this isn't really important for a dc motor as it only sees + and - voltages anyway.
A resistive speed controller will work but will rapidly drain the battery, but if you can lay your hands on an "old style battery " with the exposed links between the 3V cells you can just tap onto those so you'd get 3 6 9 and 12volt output.

I havent seen one of those batteries for years, all sealed plastic cases now. You'd probably have the battery charger anyway.

A quality light dimmer will control a small AC motor as well.

I'll stick to my $15 sewing machine. (Sunday market special!)

crazydave911

July 18th, 2012, 12:20 AM

SCR motor controllers are the ultimate in controlling DC motors and can be found in many types and maximum voltages. The ultimate in batteries (unless you've got a rich uncle to buy you some lithium ions) for such applications are 6volt golf cart types that can be hooked up in series for up to 36volts. Of course trolling motors and their batteries wouldn't be bad either. Depends on what's available to you in your walk of life. Heck, years ago Radio Shack had a project motor and controller that would be perfect :lol:

Moldy Oldy

July 18th, 2012, 02:42 AM

I've never used one, but this seems like the ticket for cheap, easy speed controller.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-DC-5-30V-5A-150W-Motor-Speed-Control-PWM-Controller-Forward-Reverse-/170880115839?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c93fa47f

I don't think the 8-speed idea will work very well because you need to be able to increase/decrease the speed gently. I think you would break the wire every time you bump the speed up to the next notch... Or at least I would. The wire is pretty easy to break, especially when you're just getting started.

jimdkc

July 18th, 2012, 03:32 AM

A variable DC supply need not be expensive. I've been thinking about using either a wall wart or a laptop computer power supply feeding a simple voltage controller.

Here's a very simple circuit that I've drawn up. Very basic. No frills. Cheap. (Note... This is an initial design, it hasn't been tested. Posted here only as an example. Use at your own risk!):

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9pMexSMAKo0/UAZkQbre8UI/AAAAAAAAANI/r3_MPJvXnjM/s600/img002b.jpg

However, I've been eyeballing those Ebay PWM controllers, too.

Barncaster

July 18th, 2012, 10:45 AM

Ah Yes,

I love to see the mad professors at work!

Rob

jimdkc

July 18th, 2012, 10:56 AM

ah yes,

i love to see the mad professors at work!

Rob

bwaaaa haaaaa haaaa haaaaa!!!!!!!

^^^ (that was supposed to be all caps... the forum sofware "fixed" it for me!)

OpenG Capo4

July 18th, 2012, 11:16 AM

Most cars use a pack of resistors to control the blower motor speed. And automotive electrical motors are 12v/dc. And you can buy a basic Ford or GM blower motor fairly cheap from a parts store or junkyard. Use a 12v drill battery for the power source. Worth a try, maybe.

Another thought is that you may be able to use a cell phone charger, or some other type of plug-in power adapter as a power source. They all have the specs listed on them. I've gone through my dad's junk drawer and found a couple that worked for powering pedals.

I was given an old sewing machine to use as a winder recently. Been too occupied with other projects to fool with it any.

Warem

July 18th, 2012, 12:08 PM

Barncaster

July 18th, 2012, 02:41 PM

Here is a couple pictures of my winder. Very simple, but totally controllable.
Parts:
Cheap drill.
Calculator
Reed switch + magnet
12 v motorcyckle battery.
Wheel collars from rc aeoroplane and a shaft for guiding the wire.

For speed controlling I simply mounted the original push button (Right word?) in an old Ikea box. And screw it in or out from the front. Works like a charm :)
Takes aproximatly 20 minutes to wind one coil, thats due to the limit of speed the calculator can "reed" the impulses from the reed switch. The drill is actually faster.

Nice Warem!

I tried the calculator but quickly grew frustrated with the dance of constantly controlling the surging of the AC motor to keep the RPMs slow enough to keep the calculator counting. The used Red Lion Cub counters are so cheap on eBay and work so well I don't know why everyone here doesn't use them. I just bought one there for $10!

Rob

guitarbuilder

July 18th, 2012, 03:30 PM

Warem

July 18th, 2012, 03:42 PM

Nice Warem!

I tried the calculator but quickly grew frustrated with the dance of constantly controlling the surging of the AC motor to keep the RPMs slow enough to keep the calculator counting. The used Red Lion Cub counters are so cheap on eBay and work so well I don't know why everyone here doesn't use them. I just bought one there for $10!

Rob

Very good tips barncaster. I might upgrade to that one.
I just used some old junk I had laying around when I made it. I got the feel for how fast I can wind before the calculator starts dancing, so its work ok if you are not in too much of a hurry.
Anyway: your tip seems perfect. I will upgrade :)

Warem

July 18th, 2012, 03:52 PM

I like the chuck idea for holding the flatwork...well done!

Thanks Builder.
When winding my first pups I learned everything from this fine mans site :http://behindthetone.com/johnfisher/
Here is also a snapshot of the winder in action.

DLR Guitars

July 18th, 2012, 05:31 PM

Personally, batteries will have to be replaced at some point down the line. I too wanted a simple, small, DC winder that would be cheap. I got all my parts from radio shack. I use a DC power supply (a Danelectro wall wart for the vintage type tone) and a 12V DC motor. The power is controlled by an On/Off/On DPDT swith (so that you can do reverse windings just by flipping the switch. There is a resistor to lower the power to the motor (was spinning way too fast) and a rheostat for speed control.

It still starts a little fast, but, it is not strong enough to break 42 AWG wire. I haven't tried 43. The other benefit is that it is quieter than a sewing machine. I can sit and wind while watching TV and not annoy my wife who also wants to watch.

R. Stratenstein

July 18th, 2012, 11:45 PM

Ah Yes,

I love to see the mad professors at work!

Rob

I have achieved my evil intent !!!:twisted::twisted:

Lot of great ideas presented here. Love to see as many of them as possible tried and refined before we get to next years' Challenge.
And who knows, there may be an as-of-yet unfound, unbelievably perfect solution waiting out there to be thought up and presented.

If Paul doesn't require winding-yer-own, I think we should demand it, don't you?
:mrgreen:

Barncaster

July 19th, 2012, 12:41 AM

Hey Rick,

We could again have beginners and advanced classes where advanced would have to wind pickups and beginners could buy. It's all up to the Great and Mysterious Oz.

Rob

glen smith

July 19th, 2012, 01:00 AM

I would like to know ( link please ) where you are getting those counters for only $10.00, I can't find any that price on ebay.

Barncaster

July 19th, 2012, 01:11 AM

Hey Glen,

The one I found for $10 was used and without the cable but making leads is easy. Keep trolling regularly for "Red Lion Cub" on eBay as they come up all the time. I see new ones for $45 and used regularly between $10 and $25. These are lithium battery powered, built in the USA and heavy as a brick, really built well.

Rob

glen smith

July 19th, 2012, 01:23 AM

Thanks Rob. All the ones I have seen are $25 or more and shipping is very pricey. I don't need one any time soon so I will just wait for the right one.

sink

July 19th, 2012, 08:00 AM

Hey Rob,

For the Red Lion counters, what else is needed to get them going? A reed switch?

Barncaster

July 19th, 2012, 11:07 AM

Hey Rob,

For the Red Lion counters, what else is needed to get them going? A reed switch?

Hey Sink,

Yes a reed switch is needed. I got some like Herb used off of eBay for $2. I have also successfully used a bicycle cadence reed switch. The Red Lion Cub has it all, built like a tank, small, one simple zero button, lithium battery powered and when you plug one of the reed switch leads into the "h.s." terminal, it will count very accurately at high speeds. This I exactly what we need in a counter for a winding application.

I recently found one on eBay for $10 but it was missing the connector. I just went to the local electronics store and bought the parts to make 2 single pin connectors for a total of 8 cents and I'm in business! Troll eBay for a decent Red Lion Cub. It's a great unit.

Rob

JohnPurdy

July 19th, 2012, 06:57 PM

Hello all, i've been following this and the other winder threads with great interest. Been trying to get mine together for a while. The problem i've been having is the counter is not accurate. So i'm looking at the Red Lion cub but there seems to be several different Red Lion Cubs. Which model is the one that works in a winder application?

Thanks John

adirondak5

July 19th, 2012, 07:27 PM

R. Stratenstein

July 19th, 2012, 07:35 PM

Hey Rick,

We could again have beginners and advanced classes where advanced would have to wind pickups and beginners could buy. It's all up to the Great and Mysterious Oz.

Rob

Works for me, but pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!

From what I've seen, that $10 counter is an unusually good deal, most seem to cost more. I paid 19.95 for my Red Lion Cub3, including shipping, but the $25 range that Glenn cites seems to be more the norm. Mine has seen some service, and has a tiny LCD screen but the batteries have a little juice in them, and it works fine. (Testing manually, that is)

You can use anything that produces an open and close contact. Some people advocate using an optical sensor with a light source, make and break with a slot in an opaque disk. Great performance, but too involved for me. A mechanical switch (microswitch tripped by a "whisker") would likely work, but you may get some unwanted bounce. I like the idea of a sealed magnetic reed switch. I used to be in the security system business, and have a cache of magnetic security switches (reed switches encapsulated in plastic housings), which I am going to use.

FWIW, my counter is a Red Lion Cub 3R000, instead of a reset switch on the front panel, it has a flying lead that resets when crossed with the ground lead of the counter. I plan to wire up a simple pushbutton for a reset.

JohnPurdy

July 19th, 2012, 10:12 PM

Thank you for the info Adirondak5. Hopefully I'll get Bach on my winder project soon.

John

adirondak5

July 19th, 2012, 11:00 PM

Thank you for the info Adirondak5. Hopefully I'll get Bach on my winder project soon.

John

Your welcome John , and I just checked , that counter is a Red Lion Cub 3L000 , sorry for my lapse . I bought it new from a distributor in Connecticut (cant remember the name) , but I found them with a Google search , it was like $35. plus shipping .

Rob DiStefano

August 4th, 2012, 10:03 AM

the motor and housing aside - i have my need for speed and most of what i've seen and talked about is just too slow - it's the turn counter that's most important.

the red lion 3L is the way to go for the counter.

what's needed next is a good, foolproof, cheap, FAST, triggering system.

who's using what, where and how much? :mrgreen:

Guitarnut

August 4th, 2012, 12:03 PM

what's needed next is a good, foolproof, cheap, FAST, triggering system.

who's using what, where and how much? :mrgreen:

I have a coil winder and I'm not sure what technology it uses for triggering the counter but back when I was thinking about building a winder, this was my solution. I never tested it but I've seen guys use similar setups for motor winding on mini lathes.

The package contains a diode and a phototransistor mounted side by side. Since the diode and transistor are on the same plane, they can't "see" each other until a reflective object passes. The transistor then sees the radiation from the diode and produces a voltage.

Just mount the sensor where it can see a strip of silver Mylar or mirror on a flywheel or axle and you're G2G.

QRB1134 (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/QT/QRB1134.pdf)

QRD1114 (http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/QR/QRD1114.pdf)

A simple setup...

R. Stratenstein

August 4th, 2012, 12:16 PM

Guitarnut

August 4th, 2012, 12:29 PM

Hey, Guitarnut-- Thx for the great circuit. I've been looking for this as a possible backup for a mag switch pulse generator. The electronic version would have no possibility of "bounce", would it?

Also, would it work on 4.5V? 3-AA batteries in a little cradle is what I have in mind.

That's the cool thing about optical sensing...there's no mechanical connection between the 2 parts of the switch. It would work on any voltage within the operational range of the sensor. I think these are rated at 5vdc max and the diode wants to see 50mA max.

Hoopermazing

August 4th, 2012, 12:32 PM

Flame-gulping engine! How cool would that be?

rr8g62rM7dM

Rob DiStefano

August 4th, 2012, 12:37 PM

That's the cool thing about optical sensing...there's no mechanical connection between the 2 parts of the switch. It would work on any voltage within the operational range of the sensor. I think these are rated at 5vdc max and the diode wants to see 50mA max.

that's a fine optical i/r trigger - where to buy?

Guitarnut

August 4th, 2012, 12:53 PM

that's a fine optical i/r trigger - where to buy?

Very affordable at $1.15. Order several just in case you get a resistor value wrong and take out the diode. :oops:

It also detects white to black transitions so you could try painting a flywheel or axle black with a white timing stripe.

QRD1114 (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/246)

Guitarnut

August 4th, 2012, 12:57 PM

Something like this could also be used. It's the opposite...keeps a constant IR beam until something breaks the beam.

Photo Interrupter (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9299?)

Rob DiStefano

August 4th, 2012, 02:34 PM

Very affordable at $1.15. Order several just in case you get a resistor value wrong and take out the diode. :oops:

It also detects white to black transitions so you could try painting a flywheel or axle black with a white timing stripe.

QRD1114 (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/246)

your schematic up above shows the qrb1134 - will the qrd1114 work as well?

Guitarnut

August 4th, 2012, 02:55 PM

your schematic up above shows the qrb1134 - will the qrd1114 work as well?

The 2 are pretty much the same... a diode and a transistor. Just match up the pin outs...ie, anode to anode, cathode to cathode and so on. I'll update my drawing to show the pin numbers.

QRD1114 = QRB1134

Pin 1= Collector (C)
Pin 2 = Emitter (E)
Pin 3 = Anode (A)
Pin 4 = Cathode (K)

Rob DiStefano

August 4th, 2012, 03:32 PM

The 2 are pretty much the same... a diode and a transistor. Just match up the pin outs...ie, anode to anode, cathode to cathode and so on. I'll update my drawing to show the pin numbers.

QRD1114 = QRB1134

Pin 1= Collector (C)
Pin 2 = Emitter (E)
Pin 3 = Anode (A)
Pin 4 = Cathode (K)

that's good. i just ordered out four qrd114's, about to order a red lion cub 3L, all to create a nice, super fast, quiet, smooth, no-sticky-tape-required, high class lathe coil winder ... :cool:

nxs6gGVYHzQ

....

Guitarnut

August 4th, 2012, 05:11 PM

that's good. i just ordered out four qrd114's, about to order a red lion cub 3L, all to create a nice, super fast, quiet, smooth, no-sticky-tape-required, high class lathe coil winder ... :cool:
....

Excellent!

Unless I read it wrong, the Cub3 does 6000 RPM max...I know you like speed. Is that fast enough for you?

Also, make sure to check the output voltage of the sensor before you connect it to the counter. The Cubs only handle 3V max count signal. You may need a voltage divider at the counter input. I guess it depends on what power source you feed the sensor.

R1 is a current limiting resistor. It's value will depend on V1 and the current limit of the sensor diode. I've seen it as high as 3.3K. This also adjusts the brightness of the diode and thus the sensitivity of the switch.

New drawing showing the voltage divider. R2 has been adjusted to 2.2K to give a 3vdc output when divided by 3.3K R3. This is assuming a 5VDC max output. R2 can be adjusted for other supply voltages...10K for 12V, 24K for 24V.

Please check all the specs before you hook up your counter. I may not be as smart as I think I am. :eek: :shock: :eek:

Rob DiStefano

August 4th, 2012, 05:44 PM

Excellent!

Unless I read it wrong, the Cub3 does 6000 RPM max...I know you like speed. Is that fast enough for you?

yeah, the cub 3L spex say 6000 max. this chinese lathe is s'posed to do about 3200 rpm under load and i expect to wind at about 2000 to 2500 rpm. so the cub is good for me. :cool:

Also, make sure to check the output voltage of the sensor before you connect it to the counter. The Cubs only handle 3V max count signal. You may need a voltage divider at the counter input. I guess it depends on what power source you feed the sensor.

R1 is a current limiting resistor. It's value will depend on V1 and the current limit of the sensor diode. I've seen it as high as 3.3K. This also adjusts the brightness of the diode and thus the sensitivity of the switch.

New drawing showing the voltage divider. R2 has been adjusted to 2.2K to give a 3vdc output with divided by 3.3K R3. This is assuming a 5VDC max output. R2 can be adjusted for other supply voltages...10K for 12V, 24K for 24V.

Please check all the specs before you hook up your counter. I may not be as smart as I think I am. :eek: :shock: :eek:

since the optic trigger needs a dc p/s, i'd wanna go with a 3x1.5v battery tray (or perhaps a 4-5v wall wart?). maybe i can get the lithium batts in the cub 3L to also fire the optic led?

this whole lathe winder project is about creating a machine that can be easily cobbled together with readily available parts and be a solid machine for hobbiests and semi-pro winders. to that end, it needs SPEED. i'm currently winding at a tad over 1825rpm with the thomas, and i know i could wind faster. when you build 2 dozen bobbins, it's easy to appreciate the need for speed. :mrgreen:

the soft start on this lathe works just fine - i was concerned, but it's a non-issue for me. some folks like a kill switch foot pedal, but i run flat out pedal to the metal. :cool:

a lathe runs ccw, so that means it will wind cw. for me to wind ccw, it's just a matter of flipping the bobbin around or using the other side of the machine. no reverse needed. :idea:

having the lathe's live center to hold the bobbin is a GODSEND, and free's up relying on unreliable double stick tape.

the lathe is super smooth and Quiet. another big plus. (although the dc motor in the thomas is purty quiet, too).

as to the coil wire guide, easy enuf to rig up on the lathe chisel arm. :wink:

the loaded cost for all this, so far, is ...

harbor freight chinese lathe - $128.23/tax only, local pickup
red lion cub 3L - $44.15/shipped
optic i/r sensor - $5 (?)

now it's all about getting the counter to work ...... :!:

much obliged for all yer help! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/gremlins/thumbsup.gif http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/gremlins/thumbsup.gif

Guitarnut

August 4th, 2012, 06:36 PM

since the optic trigger needs a dc p/s, i'd wanna go with a 3x1.5v battery tray (or perhaps a 4-5v wall wart?). maybe i can get the lithium batts in the cub 3L to also fire the optic led?

I would go with the wall wart. As batteries weaken, their voltage drops. Since R1 sets the current limit on the diode based on that voltage, as it drops from weak batteries, the circuit changes. Might see a weaker output from the diode and start missing rotations. A steady, reliable voltage means one less thing to monitor.

Rob DiStefano

August 4th, 2012, 06:50 PM

Guitarnut

August 4th, 2012, 08:03 PM

the qrd1114 datasheet shows the distance to the reflective surface as .05" - what?!?!

check out the spex on this $14 op/ir unit ...

Infrared Proximity Sensor Short Range

Infrared proximity sensor made by Sharp. Part # GP2D120XJ00F has an analog output that varies from 3.1V at 3cm to 0.3V at 30cm with a supply voltage between 4.5 and 5.5VDC. The sensor has a Japanese Solderless Terminal (JST) Connector. We recommend purchasing the related pigtail below or soldering wires directly to the back of the module.

The chart shows .05" as a test condition. The smaller the gap, the higher the output. Of course they're going to use best case scenario for testing...like 1 watt, 1 meter @ 1K sort of thing for testing speaker efficiency. I believe the max usable gap is 10mm, or .40". See the specs in the one above. 3.1V at 3cm all the way down to 0.3V at 30cm. Same thing.

Rob DiStefano

August 4th, 2012, 08:29 PM

Bentley

August 4th, 2012, 08:32 PM

Rob DiStefano

August 4th, 2012, 08:35 PM

I would go with the wall wart. As batteries weaken, their voltage drops. Since R1 sets the current limit on the diode based on that voltage, as it drops from weak batteries, the circuit changes. Might see a weaker output from the diode and start missing rotations. A steady, reliable voltage means one less thing to monitor.

point well taken. 4.5-5v wallwart it is.

Rob DiStefano

August 4th, 2012, 08:39 PM

I think people are thinking in the wrong area. People have been refining small motors and the speed controls for some time now, in the RC world. If you don't think that any RC motors would work, then just use your own. You could get a cheap 3 channel receiver (not sure if you could find the one channel you would need) and get a remote, and badabing, speed control. As for the counter... Leave it to those guys. ^^^

i think yer right. any and all of that will work. i have a gaggle of r/c plane motors and those puppies are Powerful and Fast. wouldn't take much yankee ingenuity to rig one up.

however, the live center on lathe, plus it's Powerful torque and speed, as a near ready-to-go unit, has got me convinced it's the cat's meow of coil winders. love the lathe! :cool:

Bentley

August 4th, 2012, 08:45 PM

I agree, if I had a lathe, or shop smith, I'd definitely do that. but... I dont. :cry:
I'll steal my moms credit card. :twisted:

Guitarnut

August 4th, 2012, 08:50 PM

I'll steal my moms credit card. :twisted:

Now you just made us all accomplices. :razz:

Guitarnut

August 4th, 2012, 09:02 PM

the gp2d above is s'posed to start at 3cm (1.6"). that's easier to deal with than .3" or so. i'll see how it goes with the qrd1114. i'm learning. there is a simple answer for a good functioning trigger for a red lion cub somewhere out there ... and a great winding machine, too.

Did a little more digging on QRD1114. Looks like max distance is .25". But that's very doable. After all, it's just sensing a line or sliver of Mylar that's about .002' thick. You might consider an adjustable mount so you can use a feeler gauge and slide the sensor into position. Or replace it easily with another model if need be.

I'm anxious to see where this goes.

Rob DiStefano

August 4th, 2012, 09:02 PM

but, depending on yer budget and viewpoint, a lathe is not cheap - but it is nearly ready to go. scrounging for a motor, pulleys, belt, driveshaft, bearings switches, a box to stick it all in, is the cheap and doable way to go as long as it's lots cheaper than say, $125. still, there's the counter nut to crack and buy! :mrgreen:

Rob DiStefano

August 4th, 2012, 09:05 PM

Did a little more digging on QRD1114. Looks like max distance is .25". But that's very doable. After all, it's just sensing a line or sliver of Mylar that's about .002' thick. You might consider an adjustable mount so you can use a feeler gauge and slide the sensor into position. Or replace it easily with another model if need be.

I'm anxious to see where this goes.

yep, definitely going to trial the qrd114 - that's why i bought 4. :mrgreen:

now to look in all my junk bins and see what kinda walllwarts i've got squirreled away.

i need to get back to ya on hooking up the qrd ....

jimdkc

August 5th, 2012, 07:47 AM

R. Stratenstein

August 5th, 2012, 10:19 AM

I just ordered some similar reflective photosensors on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270835648245

5 for $5. Free shipping. Only gotcha... Transistor current on these is only 30mA max. Should be fine for this use... the circuit shown is only about 2mA.

Also, this is the counter I've ordered:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271030161848

Winning bid: $2.99 + $7.90 Shipping.

Wow, Jim, the sensors are a great score and the counter is an EPIC score.

I just ordered up 4 QRD1114's from Mouser. QRB1134's are listed as obsolete at Mouser, although Sparkfun and some others have them

I also ordered up 4 L7805 Voltage Regulator IC's, to convert any DC source from 35 V on down, to 5 volts. My original thinking was to use a 9V battery, but I may go to a battery tray of 4 D cells, or something else with a little more oomph, so the batts will last longer. Actually, though, I don't expect the circuit to draw much.

1114's were $1.30 each, and the 7805's were 58 cents a pop. Total $7.52, but shipping's gonna add another $5 or so.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how everybody's individual options, mods, and ideas work.

Question about using wallwart, though, is there going to be potential problems from AC ripple? That's the main reason I decided to use batteries. That and simpler circuitry (assuming you'd need some additional circuitry to smooth out the AC)

Guitarnut

August 5th, 2012, 12:33 PM

Question about using wallwart, though, is there going to be potential problems from AC ripple? That's the main reason I decided to use batteries. That and simpler circuitry (assuming you'd need some additional circuitry to smooth out the AC)

Good wall warts have some limited filtering but if you were concerned about ripple...I don't think it would be an issue in this application...you could add some filter caps to your Vreg and beef it up. This could be as simple as a .1uF across the pos and neg in the enclosure with the sensor or as much a filter network between the wall wart and the sensor enclosure.

The network would have caps both before and after the Vreg...something like this. This would cause a 3V drop so you would have to account for that on the supply side to make sure you have the desired Vout. You could add a fixed or variable resistor on the input side to dial it in.

R. Stratenstein

August 5th, 2012, 06:48 PM

Thanks, GN, not so complicated after all. :grin: But if ripple isn't going to be an issue for this application--even simpler. :mrgreen:

Rob DiStefano

August 5th, 2012, 06:56 PM

Bentley

August 6th, 2012, 01:36 AM

Okay, I'm glad all these pickup winder threads have been so popular lately. I recently aquired and almost ready to go winder! An airpump! We have a 12v airpump who's plug had been replaced and still wasn't working, so I took it apart to fix it. When I tested it, it worked fine. So long story short, I got a motor, with a fan attached to it, that can be modified to be a motor with a disc attached to it to mount a pickup to! I'll try and upload pics, I might just start a thread to avoid flooding this one.

jimdkc

August 6th, 2012, 02:09 AM

looks really good! what's gonna be yer power supply?

Was going to go with a 12vdc 1 amp wall wart, but then I remembered...

A while back when I switched from AT&T Uverse TV service to DirecTV, AT&T had me ship the set-top boxes back, but instructed me to not ship the power supplies, cables and remotes. That left me with 2 of these:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Y3azGf6c3M8/UB9d5Wi2nKI/AAAAAAAAAOk/KI6ilPjiiJg/s640/PowerSupply.jpg

12VDC, 2.5A... and best of all... Free!

The motor I got is 800 RPM... after reading your experiences, I'm considering buying a 1200 RPM motor which is otherwise identical to the one I have... Or maybe not... I'm not really planning on going into the pickup business!

jimdkc

August 6th, 2012, 02:46 AM

Just an engineering note on the reflective opto-sensor...

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/attachments/tele-home-depot/137639d1344114470t-simple-cheap-pickup-winder-sensor-diag-jpg

In this circuit, the IR LED drops 1.7 volts. With a 5 volt supply and a 1KΩ resistor, you're only delivering 3.3mA of current through the LED. Typical operating current for these is 20mA, and the maximum it can handle is 50mA (according to the datasheet). The LED is barely on at all. Now, this might work fine, but especially if you are concerned about range of the device, you should probably drive that LED harder to get a nice strong IR illumination. I would drive it at close to 20mA.

For a 5 volt supply, 5v - 1.7v = 3.3v. This will be the voltage across the resistor. 3.3v / 20mA = 165Ω. The next higher standard resistor value is 180Ω (which will actually result in 3.3v / 180Ω = 18.3mA ... close enough!)

Since I'm going to be using a 12v supply, my calculations are similar: 12v - 1.7v = 10.3v. 10.3v / 20mA = 515Ω. Next higher standard resistor value is 560Ω (which will result in 10.3v / 560Ω = 18.4mA ... again, close enough!)

Rob DiStefano

August 6th, 2012, 06:24 AM

.... The motor I got is 800 RPM... after reading your experiences, I'm considering buying a 1200 RPM motor which is otherwise identical to the one I have... Or maybe not... I'm not really planning on going into the pickup business!

800rpm under a load is fine, the schatten is 700rpm. the reason for increased rpm is really all about production speed. at a true 800rpm it will take about 12 minutes to wind a 10000 turn typical tele bridge pup, 8 minutes at 1200rpm and 5 minutes at 2000rpm. you would think "what's a few minutes?" - hah! you'll understand that all to well if you have a dozen pups to wind!

Guitarnut

August 6th, 2012, 08:19 AM

Just an engineering note on the reflective opto-sensor...

In this circuit, the IR LED drops 1.7 volts. With a 5 volt supply and a 1KΩ resistor, you're only delivering 3.3mA of current through the LED. Typical operating current for these is 20mA, and the maximum it can handle is 50mA (according to the datasheet). The LED is barely on at all. Now, this might work fine, but especially if you are concerned about range of the device, you should probably drive that LED harder to get a nice strong IR illumination. I would drive it at close to 20mA.

Definitely a good observation. The 1K value was taken from a circuit for a proximity switch. I figured it's better to start with a higher value and tune as needed, At such close proximity to the reflective object... 1/4" max gap... I'm not sure how much illumination the sensor needs in this application. Driving it to full brightness may cause issues. But, then again, I'm not an engineer. That's what makes experimentation so much fun. :twisted:

Guitarnut

August 6th, 2012, 07:58 PM

Thanks, GN, not so complicated after all. :grin: But if ripple isn't going to be an issue for this application--even simpler. :mrgreen:

Yeah, I think it's a similar approach to filter caps they use in tube amps. DC can't get past the caps so it goes along it's merry way and any remaining AC component passes thru the caps to ground.

I say give it a shot without filtering. It's easy enough to add a few caps between hot and ground if it turns out the need is there. You can eliminate one side and probably still be well protected. I learned this network from a robotics website...I'm sure they're being extra careful.

Power supplies like jimdkc shows above are probably well filtered internally. They're not really wall warts in the classic sense. If you can find one like that, you're probably G2G.

Guitarnut

August 7th, 2012, 03:37 PM

I did a little tweaking to the circuit I posted above. With jimdkc's input, I changed the fixed resistor R1 to a 100Ω trim pot. This would give a current range of 0 to 33mA and allow you to dial in the value that works best. I guess you could go as low as 75Ω and get 44mA...closer to the 50mA max.

I also put the 10K R2 back in the circuit. I had reduced it's value for the voltage divider but R2 is important to the way the phototransistor times. I moved the voltage divider to output to keep the 3VDC max for the Cub3 input.

Much appreciated if jimdkc could confirm the changes.

http://www.crenshawweb.com/jigs/sensor_diag.jpg

Rob DiStefano

August 7th, 2012, 03:58 PM

I did a little tweaking to the circuit I posted above. With jimdkc's input, I changed the fixed resistor R1 to a 100Ω trim pot. This would give a current range of 0 to 33mA and allow you to dial in the value that works best. I guess you could go as low as 75Ω and get 44mA...closer to the 50mA max.

I also put the 10K R2 back in the circuit. I had reduced it's value for the voltage divider but R2 is important to the way the PT times. I moved the voltage divider to output to keep the 3VDC max for the Cub3 input.

Much appreciated if jimdkc could confirm the changes.

http://www.crenshawweb.com/jigs/sensor_diag.jpg

just got my lion cub3 and stuck it on the lathe - ready to build the trigger using the qrd1114 ..... :?: :cool:

Guitarnut

August 7th, 2012, 04:04 PM

just got my lion cub3 and stuck it on the lathe - ready to build the trigger using the qrd1114 ..... :?: :cool:

:cool: :cool: :cool:

KenH

August 7th, 2012, 04:11 PM

Would a model train power supply be of use for a controlled voltage? Almost everyone has one of those in their attic or basement.

Rob DiStefano

August 7th, 2012, 04:24 PM

the cub is self powered with an internal lithium batt good for about 5 years (they say 10, but i doubt that). the qrd1114 trigger, as shown in the above diagram, wants about 4.5-5v dc and i'm using a 5v wallwart that was used as pcmcia cardbus p/s. :cool:

R. Stratenstein

August 7th, 2012, 11:33 PM

Guitarnut

August 8th, 2012, 06:29 AM

For simplicity's sake, I wanted to try and use 9 volt battery power for the counter trigger opto circuit. I found a 5V power supply IC that will supposedly use anything up to 35 volts.

So using the latest thoughts and tweaks of jimdkc and Guitarnut, I added the power supply to Guitarnut's latest circuit, except I reverted back to a fixed value for R1, which, if I read jimdkc's engineering notes post correctly a few ago, means optimal value for R1 and a 5 v power feed is around 180 Ohms.

I see also that the schematics have evolved to show the more widely-available QRD1114 units, rather than the QRB1134. Are specs the same for the LED's input?

The power supply circuit came directly from the IC's data sheet
Here's what I came up with, any comments or corrections would be welcome.

It looks like it would work. A few notes from a non-engineer. :twisted:.

The R1 value that jimdkc came up with provides the typical current for an LED. It's not been determined if it's optimal for this application.

All of the discussion has been about specs for the QRD1114...it just took me awhile to update the label in the drawing.

The regulator circuit looks like it was set up for a DC supply other than batteries. There would be no need for filter caps in a purely DC power supply.

I would recommend against using batteries for the power supply. As batteries lose their power, their voltage drops. As the voltage drops, the current across R1 changes. This will affect the tuning of the trigger and could lead to missed count cycles. And with addition of the regulator, you're now powering 3 devices instead of 2, making it even less advisable to use batteries. And, you just know they're going to die in the middle of a wind. :razz:

With a wall wart instead of batteries, there's no need for a regulator as you have it. The voltage divider (R3 & R4) at the output of the drawing controls the voltage going to the counter. The wall wart itself should be regulated.

Rob DiStefano

August 8th, 2012, 06:55 AM

i'm sittin' back, suckin' all this ee jabber, waiting for one of you 'lectronics gurus to post a tested qrd1114 trigger circuit for my cub 3L so i can show y'all how great a lathe coil winder can be. thank you very very much, :cool:

Rob DiStefano

August 8th, 2012, 07:17 AM

this $18 ready-to-go trigger (just needs regulated 5v d/c) has a longer range than the qrd1114 and may be the better way to go. i ordered out one ...

https://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/images/products/08959-03-L_i_ma.jpg

"Infrared Proximity Sensor Short Range - Sharp GP2D120XJ00F

Has an analog output that varies from 3.1V at 3cm to 0.3V at 30cm with a supply voltage between 4.5 and 5.5VDC. The sensor has a Japanese Solderless Terminal (JST) Connector."

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 08:13 AM

OK... Here goes...

I did a little tweaking to the circuit I posted above. With jimdkc's input, I changed the fixed resistor R1 to a 100Ω trim pot. This would give a current range of 0 to 33mA and allow you to dial in the value that works best. I guess you could go as low as 75Ω and get 44mA...closer to the 50mA max.

For the input circuit... DON'T DO THAT!!!

Think about what happens at each end of your pot wiper travel:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-h2WmQ8om4Hc/UCJNrsyFrHI/AAAAAAAAAO0/hk22MnICws8/s400/InputCircuitAnalysis.jpg

Turn the pot all the way down, and your LED is shorted out. Well... that's OK... but...

Turn the pot all the way up... and you are connecting the LED directly to the 5VDC supply! You will let the smoke out and it will stop working! (Bet you didn't know that electronics work by smoke... let the smoke out and they stop working! :lol:)

If you look at the datasheet for the sensor, you'll see that many of the specs are listed with the LED current specified at 20mA. Seriously, I'd just go with that!

I also put the 10K R2 back in the circuit. I had reduced it's value for the voltage divider but R2 is important to the way the phototransistor times. I moved the voltage divider to output to keep the 3VDC max for the Cub3 input.

Here's my analysis of your output circuit (the arrows indicate current flow with the transistor ON-red or OFF-blue):

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-dG5wbiKhE7Y/UCJNt2I-3hI/AAAAAAAAAO8/P56L_kLuU3U/s393/OutputCircuitAnalysis.jpg

A transistor in a switching circuit does 2 things. It turns on. And it turns off. My diagram here shows you what this circuit does in both of those states. As you can see, the output voltage is going to switch between 0V and 1.1V. This is probably not enough to trigger the counter circuit. In a 5V switching circuit, you want to get over around 3V for ON and below 2V for OFF. Your high level of 1.1V means the counter never counts!

Would a model train power supply be of use for a controlled voltage? Almost everyone has one of those in their attic or basement.

Model train power supplies vary widely depending on what exactly they are, who made them, and how old they are. With so many other low-cost options available, frankly, I wouldn't bother with one! But feel free to try it with the motor you want to use. It might work just fine.

But, keep in mind... if you have other circuitry besides just the motor (sensors, counters, etc.), you're probably going to have to supply a steady, regulated voltage source any way in addition to your train power pack...

the cub is self powered with an internal lithium batt good for about 5 years (they say 10, but i doubt that). the qrd1114 trigger, as shown in the above diagram, wants about 4.5-5v dc and i'm using a 5v wallwart that was used as pcmcia cardbus p/s. :cool:

Lithium batteries have a shelf life of 10 years. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see one go longer!

So using the latest thoughts and tweaks of jimdkc and Guitarnut, I added the power supply to Guitarnut's latest circuit, except I reverted back to a fixed value for R1, which, if I read jimdkc's engineering notes post correctly a few ago, means optimal value for R1 and a 5 v power feed is around 180 Ohms.

Yes.. the input circuit looks great... That's exactly what I'd do.

However, I'd simplify the output circuit significantly! Like so:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-IaUilBCgvLM/UCJNvSohSpI/AAAAAAAAAPE/3FrEyw8ixFE/s720/Recommended.jpg

And... actually... R2 may not even be needed at all! The counter probably has an internal pull-up resistor already. I'd probably include R2 with a CUB counter since it's powered by a separate internal supply (the battery)... but for my counter which is powered by the same supply as everything else, and probably has an internal pullup resistor referenced to that same supply, I probably wouldn't include it at all.

I see also that the schematics have evolved to show the more widely-available QRD1114 units, rather than the QRB1134. Are specs the same for the LED's input?

The input side of most opto-isolators, opto-couplers, or opto-sensors is usually an infrared LED. These typically have a forward voltage drop of 1.7 volts, and are typically driven at 20mA. This design would probably work for the vast majority of such devices!

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 08:22 AM

The R1 value that jimdkc came up with provides the typical current for an LED. It's not been determined if it's optimal for this application.

If you look at the datasheet, some of the specs will say something like "with LED current at 20mA". That's a clue that this is the design spec used to capture all the other specs. It's probably about as close to optimal as you're gonna get!

I would recommend against using batteries for the power supply. As batteries lose their power, their voltage drops. As the voltage drops, the current across R1 changes. This will affect the tuning of the trigger and could lead to missed count cycles.

Agreed. I would not attempt to run a winder from batteries at all. And, if I did, I'd probably use a car or motorcycle battery to provide enough juice to complete the job!

With a wall wart instead of batteries, there's no need for a regulator as you have it. The voltage divider (R3 & R4) at the output of the drawing controls the voltage going to the counter. The wall wart itself should be regulated.

If you're using a 9-12VDC wall wart and you are designing for a 5VDC logic circuit, then yes... the regulator is needed. For my own design, I will be running everything from 12VDC... no need to change voltage levels.

See my previous post regarding the R3-R4 voltage divider. It's a really bad idea...

Guitarnut

August 8th, 2012, 09:00 AM

OK... Here goes...

Thanks for taking the time to diagram and explain this.

I'm gonna go back to building guitars now...:oops:

Rob DiStefano

August 8th, 2012, 09:30 AM

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 11:17 AM

jimdkc ...

1. okay, lotta 'lectronic tech talk, all good - so, what's a good trigger circuit for the qrd1114 for us folks using a cub 3L? i wanna build a unit that's reliable and won't fry my cub. if i use a regulated 5v dc wallwart, will it require filter caps? is it safe?

2. i'm concerned about the really short field sensing of the qrd1114 and have the sharp GP2D120XJ00F (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/8959) pre-built sensor on order. it's short range and starts at about 1.5". according to the spex, it wants to be fed 4.5v-5.5v and wonder if a 5v dc wallwart is an acceptable ps?

tia! :cool:

1. I'd use my last circuit shown... 180Ω current limiting resistor in series with the IR LED, and 10K pull-up resistor on the output.

Extra filtering is probably not necessary, but wouldn't hurt.

2. Yes. A 5vdc wall wart is fine.

Regarding the sensing distance... You're really going to want the sensor pretty close to whatever it is you're sensing (shaft, disc, whatever...) And, you're also going to want it to be shielded from ambient light.

Everybody please keep in mind... I'm just commenting on the electronics design here... I haven't actually built ANYTHING yet! My parts are just starting to trickle in!

I'm sure your Sharp sensor there is a good product... but, to me, it seems unnecessarily bulky for this application...

Rob DiStefano

August 8th, 2012, 11:48 AM

1. I'd use my last circuit shown... 180Ω current limiting resistor in series with the IR LED, and 10K pull-up resistor on the output.

this one?

since the ps is 5v and not 9v or 12v, do i need that front end stuff?

i know squat about real electronics, sorta, kinda.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/V2LightTriggerwithPowerSupply.jpg

Extra filtering is probably not necessary, but wouldn't hurt.

2. Yes. A 5vdc wall wart is fine.

Regarding the sensing distance... You're really going to want the sensor pretty close to whatever it is you're sensing (shaft, disc, whatever...) And, you're also going to want it to be shielded from ambient light.

yes, concerned about both the distance and ambient light.

Everybody please keep in mind... I'm just commenting on the electronics design here... I haven't actually built ANYTHING yet! My parts are just starting to trickle in!

I'm sure your Sharp sensor there is a good product... but, to me, it seems unnecessarily bulky for this application...

not at all for me - it'll fit fine right on top of the lathe, next to the cub 3L, plenty of flat room to stick it down.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/cav_lion/lathe2.jpg

....

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 12:36 PM

Rob DiStefano

August 8th, 2012, 01:15 PM

Yes! Ignore the battery and the regulator and the capacitors in that circuit and just connect your wall wart to the + and - points shown.

Edit: OOPS... Also... Eliminate the R3-R4 voltage divider!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-djmxw8LOxHQ/UCKWxVpfrXI/AAAAAAAAAPU/5PpwE9bthm0/s508/Recommended2.jpg

For your sensor... Yeah... You have plenty of space to mount it there. I'd just aim it at that wheel and paint a white or silver dot on the wheel (or glue a piece of reflective mylar to it... very thin and light weight.) Test it like that, and see if you need to rig up some kind of ambient light shield (cardboard or opaque plastic or whatever...) It may be fine without any kind of light shield. On the other hand... somebody could press a button on a TV IR remote control and sent your counter into fits!

way cool, i'll build that super simple circuit and check it out before messing with the sharp sensor. i'll vom the the output voltage to the counter, to make sure it doesn't exceed 3v.

i have an isolated area in my shop dedicated to pup winding, so there will be no interference of any sorts. i'll build the qrd1114 sensor into a tube, secure it firmly to the top of the lathe housing and position it about 3/16" away from a .020" mylar stripe that's double stick taped to the back of the lathe flywheel. i'll probably also put a semi round hood over both the sensor and flywheel, and kick it all off in low light.

don't have a clue as to how to *positively* check the counter's accuracy, though. for sure, winding one of my known value pups and checking the dc value would probably be good enuf, but not particularly *exacting*,

if all this works well, it would be a Super Simple and Easy to "build" pickup coil winding machine that, though not "cheap", will be of worthy of semi-pro production work load ... Fast, quiet, no bobbin taping required, easy to wind in both directions, easy to replicate using a variety of mini lathes and counter systems. however, since the counter system is the primary nut to crack, *IF* the cub 3L coupled with a qrd1114 and a 5v dc source really does work well, that nut *IS* cracked,

now to build a simple, adjustable, coil wire guide for the lathe chisel arm.

many thanx!

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 01:51 PM

Rob DiStefano

August 8th, 2012, 02:02 PM

Rob, actually... that circuit will put out more than 3 volts... it will put out 0 to 5 volts. Probably wouldn't hurt the counter... but...

I looked at the datasheet of your CUB3L counter... and it turns out that you don't even need R2 at all, turning this simple circuit into an even simpler circuit:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-eP2vKJDmUCc/UCKjWSPueRI/AAAAAAAAAPk/9HzpfQDAKFM/s508/Recommended3.jpg

wow, too easy - now i'm skeptical. :mrgreen:

seriously - "Probably wouldn't hurt the counter" - that's kinda scary, the optic costs $2 and the cub $45, and i'd really rather not fry the cub ... how to inusure that :?: should R1 be tweaked so that the output won't exceed 3v :?: i hate all this 'lectronic mumbo jumbo :mrgreen:

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 02:14 PM

Actually... going a step further... you don't even need the connection from the 5V common to the counter common (although it doesn't hurt!)

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Lz3tQ2Tdrv4/UCKry1qUqFI/AAAAAAAAAP0/neaWBJX1Sx0/s508/Recommended4.jpg

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 02:31 PM

... how to inusure that :?: should R1 be tweaked so that the output won't exceed 3v :?:

No... Just leave R2 out completely and there's no chance of frying the counter. The CUB data sheet clearly shows that it will work with a transistor or switch input only. No external voltage is required (the voltage is provided internally by the counter battery).

Otherwise, you'll need some kind of voltage divider on the output to knock it down to 3v.

flatfive

August 8th, 2012, 02:37 PM

Is anyone here using a optical tachometer rather than
a counter? I see that accurate optical tachometers are
available on Amazon for only about $15. And they're
accurate to way past winding speeds.

Or do most winders not run at a consistent-enough speed
for this approach?

edit: I see optical tachs/counters on eBay for about $35.

Guitarnut

August 8th, 2012, 02:39 PM

Otherwise, you'll need some kind of voltage divider on the output to knock it down to 3v.

A question so I understand this a little better. The voltage divider works without R2?

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 02:43 PM

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 02:56 PM

A question so I understand this a little better. The voltage divider works without R2?

R2 could be part of the voltage divider... like this:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-cGAH8VmdfRY/UCK1hQ5WxVI/AAAAAAAAAQE/uKwa5vaYyEw/s508/Recommended5.jpg

This circuit will output a 0-3 volt dc output.

You guys just wanna see how many variations of that circuit I'll draw, don't you???

:lol:

Rob DiStefano

August 8th, 2012, 02:57 PM

No... Just leave R2 out completely and there's no chance of frying the counter. The CUB data sheet clearly shows that it will work with a transistor or switch input only. No external voltage is required (the voltage is provided internally by the counter battery).

Otherwise, you'll need some kind of voltage divider on the output to knock it down to 3v.

thanx, i'll wire up with yer last scheme - thanx again!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Lz3tQ2Tdrv4/UCKry1qUqFI/AAAAAAAAAP0/neaWBJX1Sx0/s508/Recommended4.jpg

flatfive

August 8th, 2012, 02:57 PM

Counting turns is pretty exact...

Using a tachometer would involve also measuring time and doing some calculations... seems overly complicated with less accuracy to me. So, if you start the winder slow and then ramp the speed up... how to you translate your tach reading into anything useful?

Well, the calculation is simple enough, but I was wondering about
speed variation of the motor, and about ramping up and down,
as you mentioned.

I also wasn't sure how exact the turns value has to be. What do
you look for -- getting within 100 turns of the target #, or less?

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 03:01 PM

If your counter and sensor system is working well, you can be pretty precise! Way closer than within 100 turns.

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 03:03 PM

thanx, i'll wire up with yer last scheme - thanx again!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Lz3tQ2Tdrv4/UCKry1qUqFI/AAAAAAAAAP0/neaWBJX1Sx0/s508/Recommended4.jpg

Yeah... Nice thing about that one is it's WAY safe... The counter is completely isolated from everything else. Almost zero chance of screwing up the counter (and, I only say "almost" because there is always the human factor to consider!)

:wink:

Rob DiStefano

August 8th, 2012, 03:07 PM

... I also wasn't sure how exact the turns value has to be. What do you look for -- getting within 100 turns of the target #, or less?

for the most part, you can go +/- by a few hundred turns and it wouldn't be an issue with tone. i Never go under, always better to "err" on the plus side. :cool:

Rob DiStefano

August 8th, 2012, 03:11 PM

Yeah... Nice thing about that one is it's WAY safe... The counter is completely isolated from everything else. Almost zero chance of screwing up the counter (and, I only say "almost" because there is always the human factor to consider!)

:wink:

that's almost stupid easy - stuff a small tube with the sensor and a 108ohm resistor and some soldered wire connections and it's a done deal. geez. simple is good. :shock: :mrgreen:

hmmm, would there be any inteference issues with the co-location of the 5v dc wires and the sensor output? envision about a 4" tube with the sensor at one end and all the wires coming out the other end.

Guitarnut

August 8th, 2012, 03:12 PM

You guys just wanna see how many variations of that circuit I'll draw, don't you???

:lol:

Can you do one in orange and purple? :razz:

Thanks for all the help and education. Much appreciated!

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 03:34 PM

that's almost stupid easy - stuff a small tube with the sensor and a 108ohm resistor and some soldered wire connections and it's a done deal. geez. simple is good. :shock: :mrgreen:

hmmm, would there be any inteference issues with the co-location of the 5v dc wires and the sensor output? envision about a 4" tube with the sensor at one end and all the wires coming out the other end.

Naw... a few inches of wire won't matter at all (I wouldn't go a couple hundred feet or anything!

Sounds like a toilet paper tube to me! :mrgreen:

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 04:10 PM

By the way... If anybody insists that they need to experiment with the drive current for the IR LED, here's the safe way to do it:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fKI2z-dgSCA/UCLGVU9o4TI/AAAAAAAAAQU/xIsyQCJcDQ8/s402/AdjustableIRCurrent.jpg

This circuit would allow you to adjust the IR LED current from about 5.6mA to just over 40mA.

Revv23

August 8th, 2012, 05:19 PM

Anyone ever think about usin something like this for the counter?

http://www.fargocontrols.com/136_mechanicalcounter.html

3000 rpm mechanical counter, shaft thru. Just need to figure out mounting.

Guitarnut

August 8th, 2012, 05:26 PM

Rob DiStefano

August 8th, 2012, 05:47 PM

Anyone ever think about usin something like this for the counter?

http://www.fargocontrols.com/136_mechanicalcounter.html

3000 rpm mechanical counter, shaft thru. Just need to figure out mounting.

not for me! an optic i/r sensor is frictionless, simple to install (nothing required other than a tiny reflective strip) and it just plain works. and simple add-on to any mini lathe (which imho makes for a great high speed winder).

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 05:58 PM

R. Stratenstein

August 8th, 2012, 09:01 PM

Yeah... Nice thing about that one is it's WAY safe... The counter is completely isolated from everything else. Almost zero chance of screwing up the counter (and, I only say "almost" because there is always the human factor to consider!)

:wink:

I'm a bit confused. (more than usual) what drives the transistor? Are we saying that the output of the module is driven to open and close simply by detection of the IR light? :confused::?::?::confused:

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 10:03 PM

I'm a bit confused. (more than usual) what drives the transistor? Are we saying that the output of the module is driven to open and close simply by detection of the IR light? :confused::?::?::confused:

Yes... Exactly! The IR input is what turns the transistor on or off.

But, think about what's inside the counter... Probably something like this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-weWO4qLGQNg/UCMZ949suFI/AAAAAAAAAQk/cVP6Y1f9dZ8/s439/CounterInput.jpg

As you can see... the circuit is completed inside the counter.

flatfive

August 8th, 2012, 10:10 PM

Counting turns is pretty exact...

Using a tachometer would involve also measuring time and doing some calculations... seems overly complicated with less accuracy to me. So, if you start the winder slow and then ramp the speed up... how to you translate your tach reading into anything useful?

I doubt ramp up/ramp down time is an issue. About how many
seconds is the ramp up time? More than 5?

To use the tach reading, you just divide the number of turns
you want by the RPM from the tach -- that's winding time
in minutes.

jimdkc

August 8th, 2012, 10:29 PM

Of course... 10 minutes at 1000 RPM = 10000 turns.

But, I can easily imagine situations where you start slow... maybe even stop and make adjustments... then slowly start back up again. Could easily take much longer than 5... 10... even 30 seconds. Even though we're using motors and controllers and counters, this is hardly a fully automated process at this stage of the game.

(Keep in mind... I still haven't actually wound a pickup! I may be full of crap!)

Barncaster

August 8th, 2012, 10:54 PM

Oh Jim,

There ya go doing math again........

Rob

flatfive

August 8th, 2012, 11:34 PM

...
But, I can easily imagine situations where you start slow... maybe even stop and make adjustments... then slowly start back up again. Could easily take much longer than 5... 10... even 30 seconds. Even though we're using motors and controllers and counters, this is hardly a fully automated process at this stage of the game...

Good point. My idea for a cheap way to get started may
not give the kind of forgiving setup a beginner (like me) needs.

Anyway, I don't even need a tachometer: I could attach something
to the spinning bobbin that would tap a surface each go around,
and then just figure out the resulting pitch. :lol:

jimdkc

August 9th, 2012, 12:27 AM

There ya go! You could probably even vary the speed to play tunes while you're winding!

:lol:

Rob DiStefano

August 9th, 2012, 06:37 AM

from a "semi-pro" perspective, having wound *thousands* :mrgreen: of pickups over the course of decades, and from what i've read on this winding thread and others, all of you folks are just "dabbling" with pickup making. though that my change once you actually start winding and the bug bites hard. and then yer perspective on the machines you've created will more than likely change, too, and you will realize their shortcomings. and some, if not most, of you who have seen the coil winding light will begin to appreciate the perfromance and functionality of a lathe coil winder. or, maybe not - you may never need to approach coil winding from a production perspective. but you'll see in time .... :mrgreen:

Barncaster

August 9th, 2012, 10:18 AM

Guitarnut

August 9th, 2012, 10:28 AM

Hey Rob,

Does the lathe have slow speed ability or is it just a high speed, high precision thing?

Rob

Hey Rob...see his demo video here.

Lathe Power Up (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/338763-simple-cheap-pickup-winder-2.html#post4348119)

Guitarnut

August 9th, 2012, 10:34 AM

...and some, if not most, of you who have seen the coil winding light will begin to appreciate the perfromance and functionality of a lathe coil winder. or, maybe not - you may never need to approach coil winding from a production perspective. but you'll see in time .... :mrgreen:

Having spent what I did on my coil winder, and the time I've spent adapting it, if I had known then what I know now, I'd have gone with the bench top lathe. Might still. :twisted:

Barncaster

August 9th, 2012, 10:40 AM

Having spent what I did on my coil winder, and the time I've spent adapting it, if I had known then what I know now, I'd have gone with the bench top lathe. Might still. :twisted:

Hey GN,

From Robs video I still can't see the initial rotations. I'd like to know if I can "walk" it like the ACW-2. I know it can run high speed.

Rob

Guitarnut

August 9th, 2012, 10:42 AM

Hey GN,

From Robs video I still can't see the initial rotations. I'd like to know if I can "walk" it like the ACW-2. I know it can run high speed.

Rob

:oops:

Rob DiStefano

August 9th, 2012, 10:44 AM

Hey Rob,

Does the lathe have slow speed ability or is it just a high speed, high precision thing?

Rob

the chinese mini lathe i have (harbor freight, $120) has a "soft start" that slowly starts rotation between 2 to 3 seconds and then it will idle at about 700rpm (so they say), the speed pot is s'posed to take it up over 3000rpm (we'll see about that, too).

re: lathe vs schatten style -

motor - a/c vs d/c
speed - 3000+rpm vs 700 to 1800+rpm (depends on yer motor and gearing)
5 digit counter - cub 3L vs whatever (sidewinder and thomas use a red lion cub)
sensing trigger - most are using optical infared
bobbin attachment - live center vs sticky tape (requires a blast shield!)
bobbin wind direction - reverse bobbin or reverse machine vs reverse motor or using a dual platform
noise level - ultra quiet vs reasonably quiet (lots depends on the machine/motor/gearing/bearings!)
footprint - medium vs medium to small
weight - 37# vs an average of about 6#
power - a/c for motor and d/c wallwart for trigger vs d/c wallwart for motor and trigger
coil wire guide - all are reasonably standard
10000 turn coil wind time - 2000rpm/5min vs 700rpm/14+min
approximate cost - $185 vs "cheap" :mrgreen:

what'd i forget? :cool:

flatfive

August 9th, 2012, 11:36 AM

Rob, I thought you were in the process of putting together
your lathe-based winder. You've already wound lots of
pickups with it?

from a "semi-pro" perspective, having wound *thousands* :mrgreen: of pickups over the course of decades, and from what i've read on this winding thread and others, all of you folks are just "dabbling" with pickup making. though that my change once you actually start winding and the bug bites hard. and then yer perspective on the machines you've created will more than likely change, too, and you will realize their shortcomings. and some, if not most, of you who have seen the coil winding light will begin to appreciate the perfromance and functionality of a lathe coil winder. or, maybe not - you may never need to approach coil winding from a production perspective. but you'll see in time .... :mrgreen:

Rob DiStefano

August 9th, 2012, 11:40 AM

this lathe has a "soft start feature", where it takes a second or two to come up to it's slow speed, which is about 700prm. this is no problem for me, but might be for others who have machines that max out around that rpm ...

NwuT_jIj4BY

now, the lathe instructions say it's ok to stop the machine at high speed, but to never start it at high speed. i forgot and flicked the on switch while the speed pot was maxed out and promptly blew the machine's fuse, put in a new fuse and completely lost both the soft start and motor speed control. something got fried. no problem. i had a router speed control gathering dust and simply plugged the lathe into it and now i have a pretty good range of speed. :cool:

pdK2NTqAD0c

Rob DiStefano

August 9th, 2012, 11:49 AM

Rob, I thought you were in the process of putting together
your lathe-based winder. You've already wound lots of
pickups with it?

the lathe winder isn't complete without a counter, but i did test it out by winding a coil and it's *killer*, i filled a strat bobbin (7k with 42awg) in just less than 4 minutes, at about 2/3rds speed. :cool:

the winder i'm currently using for production pups is the thomas (1800rpm), with the sidewinder (1300rpm) as a backup.

Barncaster

August 9th, 2012, 12:24 PM

Now to fit a proper DC motor to the lathe and you might have something there!

Rob DiStefano

August 9th, 2012, 01:07 PM

Now to fit a proper DC motor to the lathe and you might have something there!

convince me as to why i would need a dc motor ... :roll::cool:

R. Stratenstein

August 9th, 2012, 05:57 PM

Yes... Exactly! The IR input is what turns the transistor on or off.

But, think about what's inside the counter... Probably something like this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-weWO4qLGQNg/UCMZ949suFI/AAAAAAAAAQk/cVP6Y1f9dZ8/s439/CounterInput.jpg

As you can see... the circuit is completed inside the counter.

ah, yes. Everything is so simple when somebody points it out to you.

thanks, Jim

R. Stratenstein

August 9th, 2012, 06:14 PM

Rob D- I really like the lathe's smoothness, and the live-center is a great way to keep the bobbin in place and perfectly centered. A big down side as I see it is that with the 2-3 second soft start, you gotta be ready to go pretty fast, at a fast clip. Get a wire loop or something, and you're toast.
On the other hand, I like how the DC version pioneered by Barncaster starts from absolutely nothing, along a smooth continium to max speed the motor's capable of. Plus, it would take me about three tries before I forgot, left the speed control on full, hit the switch, and blew out the lathe's speed control. That's really disappointing QC/product design on the HF lathe.

I'm thinking the ACW-2 is a great tool for the beginner, until the noob winder gets a few dozen coils under his belt, then, as you do, lusts for speed and ultimate smoothness. And possibly, although I did not search fleabay for them, there may be 3K DC motors of the 12 or 24-volt persuasion that would get an ACW-2 up to the same speed level. (And next: a home-made live center to hold the bobbin in place----hmmm, haven't finished building mine, yet. . . .

flatfive

August 9th, 2012, 06:48 PM

Rob D- I really like the lathe's smoothness, and the live-center is a great way to keep the bobbin in place and perfectly centered...

I'm thinking the ACW-2 is a great tool for the beginner, until the noob winder gets a few dozen coils under his belt, then, as you do, lusts for speed and ultimate smoothness...

A sincere question: are most winders not smooth? And
why does it matter?

Bentley

August 9th, 2012, 06:55 PM

Smoothness is esential to be able to easily wind a coil without breaking or messing up the wire.

Mojotron

August 9th, 2012, 08:23 PM

A sincere question: are most winders not smooth? And
why does it matter?

I would think that most home made winders are going to vibrate a little - I don't think it matters unless the coil winds crooked. The tiny wobble in mine adds to the scatter-factor :wink:

Never had a problem with breaking wires.

glen smith

August 9th, 2012, 08:27 PM

If you have a winder that vibrates, get someone with Parkinson's to do the winding for you.

Rob DiStefano

August 9th, 2012, 09:33 PM

until you've operated a really good coil winder, you won't understand "smooth".

my sidewinder is smooth. my thomas is smooooth. my lathe is smoooooooooooth. :mrgreen:

Rob DiStefano

August 9th, 2012, 09:42 PM

Barncaster

August 10th, 2012, 01:50 AM

Bentley

August 10th, 2012, 02:18 AM

I'm surprised no one has built a live center type thing for a homemade winder... Maybe it wouldn't even need to be live?

Rob DiStefano

August 10th, 2012, 06:13 AM

I'm surprised no one has built a live center type thing for a homemade winder... Maybe it wouldn't even need to be live?

do you realize why a lathe live center must be "live"?

Rob DiStefano

August 10th, 2012, 06:24 AM

Hey Rob,

I think this is just two perspectives presenting themselves. You need speed and positive location and you have it. The OCD hobbiest needs low rpm controllability to check the winds to see if they are "right" every 500 turns :roll: ...... Sad but true. Little DC units are perfect for this. Now if I was in the business I'd be using your lathe to make time. That was a really sweet find. Someone had their eyes open there. Right tool for the job I say!

Rob

there is also the matter of portability. it's nice to stow away a little dc winder in a box somewhere and take it out a few times a year. that's not gonna happen with a mini lathe winder. also, realize that with a speed control, as i have now, yer lathe start rpm is less than 100 and that's like standing still. trust me - after you build a few dozen coils, starting at 200rpm will be like standing still, no big deal. then then you'll acquire a need for speed at the top end, where even 1000rpm will never do. AND, real speed will never work using finger tension, you must devise a tensioner of sorts as i have done - and this is when 700rpm and a 15 minute coil wind will make you antsy for a 2000rpm 5 minute wind. THEN, you will wind more coils and hafta think about what to do with them all .... :cool:

and a lathe winder is easy to replicate, once you have the counter/sensor thingy in yer back pocket. :mrgreen:

i build coils at least four dayze out of the week, the last batch was ten. a spit in the ocean compared to, say, duncan, but more than a hobbiest. :mrgreen:

Rob DiStefano

August 10th, 2012, 06:33 AM

I would think that most home made winders are going to vibrate a little - I don't think it matters unless the coil winds crooked. The tiny wobble in mine adds to the scatter-factor :wink:

Never had a problem with breaking wires.

consider that "scatter winding" will never get you a fully packed coil, with the benefits of maximum resistance. dittos for short rod mags. i'd never use less than a .688" rod and routinely use .710" and even .781" - lots depends on the pup tone yer after. :mrgreen:

for finger winding, motor speed breaks coil wire. slow rpms makes for relatively easy finger pinch tension winding. however, an uber simple built tensioner will safely allow 2000rpm without lots of shorts - or breaks. :cool:

Barncaster

August 10th, 2012, 09:50 AM

Hey Rob,

I saw your lathe video where you had a stacked coil chucked up. It is my understanding that to make a humbucker you need to have magnets with opposing polarity in each coil along with routing the signal to travel in opposing directions. The stacked coil will give you the latter but both coils sharing the same magnets will not give you the polarity difference. How does this work?

Thanks,
Rob

Rob DiStefano

August 10th, 2012, 09:54 AM

Barncaster

August 10th, 2012, 10:03 AM

think about - rod magnetic polarity is only at their ends. :cool:

Hmmmmmm,

So the real reason for opposing polarity on traditional humbuckers would be to negate excessive string pull or push from the two magnets if the were both oriented with the same polarity? I had read on a website that using humbucker magnets with the same polarity orientation would not work. Is the Ministry of Disinformation at work again?

Rob

Rob DiStefano

August 10th, 2012, 10:30 AM

a stack is essentially two coils, just as with a dual side-by-side coil standard humbucker pickups. what matters with a stack is how it's wound, with one coil clockwise and the other counter clockwise. dual coil humbuckers have both coils wound in the same direction, with their finish leads joined and their start leads going to hot and ground.

for maximum noise cancelling, a dual coil humbucker should have identical footprint bobbins and the exact same number of turns of the same coil wire = a symmetrical wind. some humbuckers are wound asymmetrically, where one coil has more turns of the same wire, and/or the coils have different footprints. this can shape/increase treble response, but the pup won't be perfectly noise free.

i build a stacked tele bridge or strat pup with a slightly taller top part of the bobbin than the lower part, because i'll put more wire on the more important top coil. i typically use .710" mags, to get more coil winding room. the coil wire goes through the hole of the "separator" bobbin flatware and gets wound on the top partition of the bobbin clockwise, then it's run down to the bottom partition of the bobbin and gets wound counter-clockwise. one continous unbroken wind of coil wire. after potting, the poles are charged and by golly, she's noiseless. there are lotsa folks doing this kinda stack winding. :mrgreen:

yes, you could wind both bobbin partitions in true humbucker fashion, but then you'd have a humbucker and not something more "single coil like". kinman, lawrence and others typically make that bottom bobbin partition sans any magnet, with either air in its center or something some non-magnetic ferrous in order to increase inductance. a much trickier build, but easy enuf to wind.

hope some of this helps.

Guitarnut

August 10th, 2012, 10:37 AM

Hmmmmmm,

So the real reason for opposing polarity on traditional humbuckers would be to negate excessive string pull or push from the two magnets if the were both oriented with the same polarity? I had read on a website that using humbucker magnets with the same polarity orientation would not work. Is the Ministry of Disinformation at work again?

Rob

The reason a stacked coil works is the coils are out of phase. The reason a humbucker works is the pole pieces are out of phase. There has to be an out of phase or reverse polatity relationship for cancellation to occur.

Rob DiStefano

August 10th, 2012, 10:48 AM

The reason a stacked coil works is the coils are out of phase. ....

'xactly!

Barncaster

August 10th, 2012, 12:10 PM

Rob DiStefano

August 10th, 2012, 02:09 PM

Thanks Guys!

Great info. Above Rob, for humbuckers, you said that you join the finish leads with the starts being hot and ground. I did the opposite with my Firebird pickups. The sound is great IMHO. Is one way right or wrong?

Rob

either way is just fine, as one coil will be reverse wound - then each coil is given a different polarity.

Barncaster

August 10th, 2012, 02:31 PM

Thanks Rob.

R. Stratenstein

August 10th, 2012, 05:48 PM

you musta missed this ...

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/338763-simple-cheap-pickup-winder-3.html#post4359791

Actually, Rob D, I did see the video. The start is indeed soft, but IT then decides when it will speed up quite a bit--maybe not to max speed, but to a noob with no experience with the tiny wires, it looks like "WHOA, I'm not ready to speed up yet. ." :shock:

Where as Rob Barncaster presents pretty well, the fear of the noob, below. I think it boils down to I wanna be able to wind at 2 RPM for the whole coil, if that's what I want to do.

Now, I'm completely willing to admit that of course I'll not wind any coils at 2 RPM or anything like it, and if all goes well, someday I hope to be competing with you for max winding speed awards. But just not yet. . .:cry::cry:

Hey Rob,

I think this is just two perspectives presenting themselves. You need speed and positive location and you have it. The OCD hobbiest needs low rpm controllability to check the winds to see if they are "right" every 500 turns :roll: ...... How about every 2 turns? :!::?::!::mrgreen:

Sad but true. Little DC units are perfect for this. Now if I was in the business I'd be using your lathe to make time. That was a really sweet find. Someone had their eyes open there. Right tool for the job I say!

Rob

Amen, and who knows, someday. . . .

BTW, who makes the winders for the big boys? Are they shop-built or are there companies out there who make real, high commercial/industrial scale winders?

guitarbuilder

August 10th, 2012, 06:01 PM

Rob DiStefano

August 10th, 2012, 06:54 PM

Actually, Rob D, I did see the video. The start is indeed soft, but IT then decides when it will speed up quite a bit--maybe not to max speed, but to a noob with no experience with the tiny wires, it looks like "WHOA, I'm not ready to speed up yet. ." :shock:

Where as Rob Barncaster presents pretty well, the fear of the noob, below. I think it boils down to I wanna be able to wind at 2 RPM for the whole coil, if that's what I want to do.

Now, I'm completely willing to admit that of course I'll not wind any coils at 2 RPM or anything like it, and if all goes well, someday I hope to be competing with you for max winding speed awards. But just not yet. . .:cry::cry:

Amen, and who knows, someday. . . .

BTW, who makes the winders for the big boys? Are they shop-built or are there companies out there who make real, high commercial/industrial scale winders?

some or most of you are just talking theory and have no real world winding experience. your suppositions about coil winding aren't grounded in reality.

there are many nuances to experience, understand, learn, adapt and grow with regards to coil winding. and you will create personal preferences. most newbies are afraid of speed, and if you finger pinch wind you should have that fear 'cause you Will screw up and bust wire. but build a simple coil wire tensioner and you will be bored stiff sitting there for 14 minutes trying to fill a 10000 turn coil. :mrgreenl:

i've already stated that a lathe soft start might not be for everyone, and if so, just plug the lathe into a light dimmer or harbor freight speed control and you will have a much better time kicking off the wind. once again, using a stupid simple wire tension jig means you can practically start at full speed boogie and not break wire.

start winding! :twisted:

Rob DiStefano

August 10th, 2012, 06:59 PM

From my limited winding experiences, I found that I was checking the winds about every 1000 turns, mostly because at the speed I was winding it was hard to really see the profile of the ends of the coil to determine where I should put some wire to keep it even across the coil. I'd slow down but not necessarily stop...well a few times I stopped. Now the sidewinder uses tape to hold the coil and that means centering the bobbin is a trick. I got closer to being centered after I got a few under my belt, but I was getting some vibration which may have impacted the tension some. I think having a centering bolt is the answer to that issue, so you all may want to think about that aspect of the winder design.

As far as using a dead center instead of a live one, you could just blast oil on the thing...:-).

there is no need to stop and look at the coil.

no matter what shaft speed yer running, you will look at the spinning bobbin as reflected off a pure white or pure black background so that you can see how the wire is laying down, and how the coil is shaped. there is no need to stop and look at the coil. yer only looking at the coil and occasionally at the counter to see where yer at.

i wind linear and with about 300 turns left to go i begin a scatter wind to "tidy up" the coil.

Mojotron

August 10th, 2012, 07:01 PM

The reason a stacked coil works is the coils are out of phase. The reason a humbucker works is the pole pieces are out of phase. There has to be an out of phase or reverse polatity relationship for cancellation to occur.

I noticed on a Dimarzio HS2 - which IMO sounds great with just the upper coil and OK with both coils - that the magnets did not extend to the lower coil; the lower coil is just a dummy coil. I suppose that was an early idea as the HS2 has been around for decades.

Also, on an Dimarzio Area 61, which sounds fantastic IMO, the coils were a lot like Rob described on his split coils, but they used a steel magnetic field reflector - sort of in the shape of a very small steel u-channel that concentrated the field on the upper coil... there's a few things to play with there on those stacked pickups. I like the idea of stacking a lot to add some beef and reduce noise.

Rob DiStefano

August 10th, 2012, 07:02 PM

... As far as using a dead center instead of a live one, you could just blast oil on the thing...:-).

hah! no way at the rpm's i wind at! live center lathe is the way to go for me - super smooth.

Mojotron

August 10th, 2012, 07:06 PM

there is no need to stop and look at the coil.
...
Rob - patience please - we are but mere mortals :lol:

Honestly, I'm checking that I did not overrun the flatwork too :oops: That seems to happen if I move too quickly when I'm coming up on the limits.

Rob DiStefano

August 10th, 2012, 07:26 PM

Rob - patience please - we are but mere mortals :lol:

Honestly, I'm checking that I did not overrun the flatwork too :oops: That seems to happen if I move too quickly when I'm coming up on the limits.

make sure to prepare the flat work for proper winding. file and sand (80-120 grit, i use an emory board) the inner eyelets dead flush. sand the inner edges of the flat ware round. when you start the intial winding, run the machine at a low speed and move the coil wire directly right up against both flat ware sides for a buncha turns. stop and check that the wire is correctly where it belongs. adjust the flat ware as need be. make sure the bobbin is centered on the platform and that it's not tilted (due to the eyelets). for me, i rarely use the coil wire guides - i use the inner sides of the flat ware as my winding guides. ymmv.

Revv23

August 11th, 2012, 09:04 AM

Rob, im interested in seeing what your wore tensioner involves. If you have time you mind sharing some info?

Thanks,

Mark

Rob DiStefano

August 11th, 2012, 09:11 AM

a very high tech, complicated. space-age coil wire tensioning device. :mrgreen:

the black stuff is stick-on velcro LOOP side.

never hangs, never ever breaks coil wire, yields a good tension without causing shorts or unacceptable wire stretch.

i've wound about a hundred lions with this little thingy so far, never a problem. i will NEVER go back to a thumb and forefinger human tensioner. :cool:

i will get together a video of it in action ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/cav_lion/tens1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/cav_lion/tens2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/cav_lion/tens3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/cav_lion/tens4.jpg

Keyser Soze

August 11th, 2012, 10:11 AM

Hmmmmmm,

So the real reason for opposing polarity on traditional humbuckers would be to negate excessive string pull or push from the two magnets if the were both oriented with the same polarity? I had read on a website that using humbucker magnets with the same polarity orientation would not work. Is the Ministry of Disinformation at work again?

Rob

Think of the poles of a stacked bucker as like the poles of the earth.

So long as the coils are centered on the length of the rods one coil will be in the northern hemisphere, the other in the south. So the magnetic polarity of each will be opposite. Wire the coils in reverse electrical polarity and you have RWRP coils, just like in a classic side by side humbucker.

R. Stratenstein

August 11th, 2012, 11:59 AM

Think of the poles of a stacked bucker as like the poles of the earth.

So long as the coils are centered on the length of the rods one coil will be in the northern hemisphere, the other in the south. So the magnetic polarity of each will be opposite. Wire the coils in reverse electrical polarity and you have RWRP coils, just like in a classic side by side humbucker.

Thanks Keyser soze this explanation makes the best sense of any I've heard of the stacked bucker. That, and consider what a magnetic field looks like running from the North to the South poles, and you do have pretty much the same effect as side by side humbuckers.

Barncaster

August 11th, 2012, 12:58 PM

Thanks Keyser!

That makes all the sense in the world. I knew there was a solid explanation out there!

Rob

Rob DiStefano

August 11th, 2012, 06:34 PM

Guitarnut

August 11th, 2012, 07:09 PM

jim, what's the value tolerance for R1? i've got 150, 177 and 200 ohm resistors.

Hey Rob, for a 5vdc supply, the 150Ω will work fine putting you at 22mA.

Rick has his circuit working at 68Ω but he's real close to the 50mA max current...48.5mA.

jimdkc

August 11th, 2012, 08:31 PM

Hey Rob, for a 5vdc supply, the 150Ω will work fine putting you at 22mA.

Rick has his circuit working at 68Ω but he's real close to the 50mA max current...48.5mA.

^^^^ --- What he said!

jimdkc

August 11th, 2012, 08:35 PM

Remember: (Supply Voltage - 1.7v) / R = LED Current

Don't exceed the maximum rated current (50mA). I chose 20mA as a typical value used in these circuits. More current should give you more sensitivity and range.

Rob DiStefano

August 11th, 2012, 09:16 PM

Hey Rob, for a 5vdc supply, the 150Ω will work fine putting you at 22mA.

Rick has his circuit working at 68Ω but he's real close to the 50mA max current...48.5mA.

thanx, but if you had originally specified 180 ohms, wouldn't 177 ohms be better than 150? what is the viable range of coupled resistance? fwiw, the dc supply i have produces 5v and 1000ma.

i should this up and running by monday ... and if it all comes together and works well (the counter, that is) i'll take a vid of it in action, winding a pup. :cool:

jimdkc

August 11th, 2012, 10:15 PM

180Ω gives 18.3mA, 177Ω gives 18.6mA, 150Ω gives 22mA... Any of those will work about the same... really minor difference!

If you think you need more range, reduce the resistor to provide 30 or 40mA...

Good design practice is to use components rated at least 50% over the design parameter... for example in a 200V circuit, use 300V rated capacitors... In this case the LED rating is 50mA... I usually would try not to run it at anything over 33.3mA.

48.5mA is really pushing it... but still within specs!

Guitarnut

August 11th, 2012, 10:16 PM

thanx, but if you had originally specified 180 ohms, wouldn't 177 ohms be better than 150? what is the viable range of coupled resistance? fwiw, the dc supply i have produces 5v and 1000ma.

i should this up and running by monday ... and if it all comes together and works well (the counter, that is) i'll take a vid of it in action, winding a pup. :cool:

Any of the values you listed will work within the circuit. Rick found that he needed a higher current to get his trigger to work. Lower R1 value means higher current to the diode. So, I chose 150Ω from the ones you listed. YMMV. :smile:

jimdkc

August 11th, 2012, 10:25 PM

Also... if the thing your sensing is bright white... or even better, mirror reflective silver (ie: silver mylar)... you probably don't need to push the current so much!

For my sensor, I'm probably going to point it at a disc painted flat black with a dot of silver mylar glued to it.

R. Stratenstein

August 11th, 2012, 11:31 PM

Since I'm running through the 5V regulator IC, it should produce 5 volt output regardless of input through its rated range, right? The power regulator is rated up to 35 volts, so a good strong 9V battery should be OK.

Reason I ask is that after I ran my first test last night, I put my VOM on the battery and it was reading about 8.6 V.

jimdkc

August 11th, 2012, 11:53 PM

R. Stratenstein

August 12th, 2012, 12:50 AM

You should get 5V out of your regulator as long as your battery remains above 7V.

Thanks!

jimdkc

August 12th, 2012, 05:59 AM

So... If anyone is still having problems figuring out how Rob's stacked coil humbuckers work, think of it like this:

Here is how a normal humbucker pickup is designed (cross-section view):

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NIgDhBmu2RQ/UCd6edUM6OI/AAAAAAAAARg/igPMOM1Hym8/s300/humbucker_guts2.jpg

The magnet magnetizes the steel pole pieces and the adjustment screws as shown.

Now, cut it apart at the red lines. Throw away the bottom part.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4v0wsdi4sSE/UCd6eSqK2DI/AAAAAAAAARc/Dfwavm89Gys/s300/humbucker_guts3.jpg

Now, pivot the left-hand coil at the blue dot until it's under the right-hand coil. Replace the steel slugs and screws with long slug magnets.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-MjIbGHUP2G8/UCd6ed4ZUUI/AAAAAAAAARk/Ud-RshmspL8/s171/humbucker_guts4.jpg

There ya go! Stacked humbucker!

Rob DiStefano

August 12th, 2012, 06:12 AM

R. Stratenstein

August 12th, 2012, 10:14 AM

Elegant, Jim, and an outstanding drawing, too!

Bentley

August 12th, 2012, 03:37 PM

Rob DiStefano

August 12th, 2012, 03:38 PM

jimdkc

August 12th, 2012, 04:07 PM

i wired up a qrd1114 with the 5v 1000ma wall wart, using a 177ohm for R1, in accordance with the latest and last schematic, and noticed the following ...

1. the led doesn't light up.
2. a vom across the emitter and collector legs shows 3.8 volts.

:?:

1. It's infrared... you won't see any visible light (unless you point it at a webcam, then you can see it on screen!)

2. That should be about right when it's not sensing. It should drop if you put something reflective in front of the sensor.

If you can't get it to work, try dropping R1 down to about 100Ω or so. Maybe that IR LED needs more current!

Guitarnut

August 12th, 2012, 04:12 PM

I've never really looked into the actual pieces of a humbucker. Is the bar magnet the only thing that is magnetized, then next to the pole pieces and screws it make them magnetized? Sorta like the cheapo single coil pickups with the pole pieces and one ceramic bag magnet?

HBs have screws and slugs instead of rod mags. The big difference is, unlike the cheap ceramic SCs, most HBs are made with Alnico mags. Though some are ceramic as well.

Rob DiStefano

August 12th, 2012, 07:58 PM

1. It's infrared... you won't see any visible light (unless you point it at a webcam, then you can see it on screen!)

2. That should be about right when it's not sensing. It should drop if you put something reflective in front of the sensor.

If you can't get it to work, try dropping R1 down to about 100Ω or so. Maybe that IR LED needs more current!

weird happenings ...

double checked the qrd1114 pin locations, used a 100 ohm R1 resistor, double checked all the leads. the sensor is 1/8" away from a 1/8" strip of shiny silver mylar taped to the back of the lathe platform wheel (it's matte black). the sensor is locked down tight.

without plugging in the 5v ps, the cub 3L starts counting Fast. plugging in the 5v ps and running the lathe Slow, with no lights on in the room, the counter stops dead and won't increment. unplug the ps and the counter starts counting.

ack.

even more weird ... with the 5v ps unplugged, and the sensor leads hooked to the cub 3L, it's now counting. poorly, but counting - it misses lots of hits and can't do better than what i think is about 300rpm or so.

more ack.

jipp

August 12th, 2012, 08:24 PM

i have a question. how much vibration does a pizeo type pickup need to pick up sound?
the type used in cigar box;s etc. im asking here since the diagram of the double stack pickup. you guys obv know your nuts and bolts of a pup.

now in short i spend up to 2 - 8 hours a month in the doctors office a month. it gets so boring.
i found a product called a shred neck. now this seems like a ideal tool. but it has some limitations which may hurt me as im a beginner at this guitar stuff. and to be honest i suck, but it still helps ignore the pain. and ill keep at it till i get better with just darn determination and practice and if i can fin d a teacher if my health allows soon. skill be damned, laughs.

anyhow, it seems this shredneck is basically a head stock of a neck with six fake tuners? not sure never seen one up close yet but will probably have to buy one for now.
but then it has 7 frets, and the head stock becomes the body. they scalloped the first fret so you could pick. and you do not tune this as its not a instrument. but i cant help you are gonna hear something, i do when i play my electric guitar unplugged.

so what i was thinking since this 7 fret neck probably has no truss rod. could i hollow that out. put a piezo type pick up in it with a 1/4" jack and use my vox amplug acoustic head phone amp to work with it? or is this a dumb idea. i would also make it 12 frets as i only need it for doctors, no planes. just not sure how much t his type of pickup needs in the way of vibrations. that is why i was thinking hollowed out sound chambers instead of a truss rod.

if this was the wrong place forgive me. im just a crippled and trust me it gets so damn boring waiting for doctors every month.

i did buy all the tools to build my own guitar tho before my health went really bad over the window. so i would not have to buy anything but the wood for and the cigar box type pickup. unless there is a better pickup for my task. or should i just let this stupid idea go. and just use the shredneck and go on with life best i can. chronic pain sucks. guitar sure helps ignore it.. thankfully. you be surprise how a few hours at the amp does compared to a couple of oxycotins+percets+valume.. yah 3 times a day.. its amazing iv not given up yet. laughs.

chris. *hell rob if i have too ill even buy two of your strat pickups. i have a super strat so would not need the third* yeah boredom is getting the best of me at the doctors each month. im ready to do anything to accomplish something. *

p.s
i was thinking a Dean V head stock. fit on the thigh etc. i could make this thicker and maybe even hollow body? with just enough wood for real tuners etc.

R. Stratenstein

August 12th, 2012, 09:55 PM

R. Stratenstein

August 12th, 2012, 10:05 PM

weird happenings ...

double checked the qrd1114 pin locations, used a 100 ohm R1 resistor, double checked all the leads. the sensor is 1/8" away from a 1/8" strip of shiny silver mylar taped to the back of the lathe platform wheel (it's matte black). the sensor is locked down tight.

without plugging in the 5v ps, the cub 3L starts counting Fast. plugging in the 5v ps and running the lathe Slow, with no lights on in the room, the counter stops dead and won't increment. unplug the ps and the counter starts counting.

ack.

even more weird ... with the 5v ps unplugged, and the sensor leads hooked to the cub 3L, it's now counting. poorly, but counting - it misses lots of hits and can't do better than what i think is about 300rpm or so.

more ack.

Very weird, Rob. Don't know what to say, except maybe try reversing the connections from the counter to the sensor. That worked for me, but mine wasn't runaway counting. Also check polarity connections from PS to sensor, although if you're able to make voltage checks, sounds like that isn't a problem.

jimdkc

August 13th, 2012, 12:37 AM

weird happenings ...

double checked the qrd1114 pin locations, used a 100 ohm R1 resistor, double checked all the leads. the sensor is 1/8" away from a 1/8" strip of shiny silver mylar taped to the back of the lathe platform wheel (it's matte black). the sensor is locked down tight.

without plugging in the 5v ps, the cub 3L starts counting Fast. plugging in the 5v ps and running the lathe Slow, with no lights on in the room, the counter stops dead and won't increment. unplug the ps and the counter starts counting.

ack.

even more weird ... with the 5v ps unplugged, and the sensor leads hooked to the cub 3L, it's now counting. poorly, but counting - it misses lots of hits and can't do better than what i think is about 300rpm or so.

more ack.

Sounds like maybe too much LED current, resulting in the sensor always sensing (flooded with IR light). Remove the 5V and there is enough ambient IR to allow it to count slowly. Maybe dial your LED current back to say 10mA... 330Ω resistor should do it... or, look back and find the adjustable circuit I posted (82Ω in series with a 500Ω trimpot) if you don't want to fiddle with replacing resistors and you just want to dial it in.

Another thing you can experiment with if you are missing counts when running fast is the size of your mylar target. The wider the mylar, the wider the count pulse.

Rob DiStefano

August 13th, 2012, 09:35 AM

Sounds like maybe too much LED current, resulting in the sensor always sensing (flooded with IR light). Remove the 5V and there is enough ambient IR to allow it to count slowly. Maybe dial your LED current back to say 10mA... 330Ω resistor should do it... or, look back and find the adjustable circuit I posted (82Ω in series with a 500Ω trimpot) if you don't want to fiddle with replacing resistors and you just want to dial it in.

Another thing you can experiment with if you are missing counts when running fast is the size of your mylar target. The wider the mylar, the wider the count pulse.

much obliged for all your input, jim. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/gremlins/thumbsup.gif

i need a sensor that'll work = accurate and fast to 2500rpm - and i have no time for any more experimentation. it was worth a shot to see if the qrd1114 would work - close but no cigar. so unless someone come's up with a *good* optic i/r trigger for the cub 3L i'm gonna hafta leave this mess bleeding for now. i have a ton of guitar and pickup work that needs my immediate attention ... :cool:

jipp

August 13th, 2012, 11:27 AM

Sorry to hear about your health problems and hope you're doing better soon. If the shredneck is made of wood (couldn't find that statedanywhere), you should get enough vibrations to make a piezo pickup work. I'd mount it near the "bridge nut" for maximum vibration coupling. Not sure how you'd add 5 frets though. From the reviews I read, the scale is very weird and you don't tune it so much for pitch as for feel. Would take me some getting used to, but for killing dead time, it might be interesting in the doc's office.

Good luck and best wishes for restored health!
Rick

( Skip this post, has nothing to do with the OP topic thread, so i do not waste your time. thx )

Rick:
thank you for the kind reply.
iv been asking and no one seem to have any kind of feed back on them, guess most people have no need for one when they can grab a small 3/4 or travel guitar to noodle around on the couch. i guess its because like you said the shredneck.com is something made for one thing. finger work, so ill just buy one and go from there. my fret template has Gibson and fender on the template. even tho a jaguar would probably be better at 24"

yeah, i had a motorcycle accident, in short compound fracture to my left leg, crawled 2 days, mile and half pulling my self along dirt road, two years to learn to walk again, fake knee in 2004. and im only 37 i got my fake knee on july 5th 2004 9am. hah, you would think id have a kid but i guess just like hitting t the tree, somethings no matter how hard you try.. time dose not erase everything. so i will email the company and see if the jason becker model( what a great player, wish we could of seen him mature.. damn the human body..) has the scalloped first fret for easier picking, . to me picking and finger movements at the same time are important. think its called synchronizing or something. get both hands working together.

if it does ill get that model to support Jason health. assuming any proceeds go to him witch id hope most of it would for his model. if not maybe i could scallop it my self. does not look to hard.

once i by the shredneck next month, i guess ill have to investigate to see if i need to try to do what i want, or if it will work fine jut to do finger exercises etc. ill be sure to start a thread on it needs improvement and if it could work, i do have a vision ( i would use a travel guitar, but doctors office i need to make sure it is as silent as possible and rather small chairs are always so close. as iv never built a guitar so any feed back positive or not will be good. but hey i did get he tools over the winter, on disability took me a while. but all brand name stuff so should last my life time. but its getting harder to work/stand in the shop. been looking into amp stuff i can do that sitting down been practicing soldering old on circuit boards, even bought one of them Kustom v5 combo tube amps for 49.00 they had a blow out on last month to learn on. my first mod will be master volume. etc.

once again, sorry for so much personal info, im from a small town and i wear my heart on my sleeve. and there were pretty much only three rules growing up in a small town. your word and a hand shake was worth more than a legal document, you never lied, and you did not go back on your word.

that logic does not work in the big city i found out real quick. i wish you guys the best of luck.

Rob - i still plan on upgrading the pickups in the strat copy. so rob ill be in contact with you in the future, see if we can find a matching bucker to go along with two of your vintage strat pups ( i like the vintage single coil tones for sure ). its alder body, maple neck nice and fat i love it.

on a side note when i was buying my tools to build a guitar over the winter i bought out a music store for cheap. 80.00 or something came out with two boxes of all NOS made in the usa stuff. pots, pick ups etc.. and NOS 50 year old gibson fretwire not even tarnish. enough to do two guitars. he told me this was the good stuff. whatever the hell that meant ( wont use it on a silly shredneck thing, that be silly if it really is as good as the guy made it seem. who knows, im new to this. picked up the hobbie when i joined the forum needed a sit down hobby, i should probably further along than i am, but learning on your own with no direction, add some days i cant get out of bed etc.. slows one down. . ok, i derail your thread, and ill gracefully exit now. you all have a great day. enjoy it like its your last because you you just never know. ( i know seems simple but i think we forget about that more than we should, one major accident sure wakes one up about how fragile life is)
chris.

thanks again, now i know it dose not take much for the cigarbox type pickup to work, and with the vox amplug acoustic. i think i can come up with something. building it will take longer than it would take most of you to build a full guitar at this point, laughs. rock on.

damn it, here i go again, talking and talking.

sorry rob.

back to your pickup building.

Rob DiStefano

August 13th, 2012, 02:41 PM

to all and fwiw, a reply from sparkfun to my query about all the sensors they offer, and with specific respects to their qrd1114 and sharp optic i/r sensors ....

"I am not entirely sure if any of our sensors are sensitive enough to count 700 or 2500 RPM. You can try with the products you mentioned, but I am not sure if you will get the results you want."

this what what i'd been thinking all along and why really *good* optic i/r sensors seem to command prices in the $100 range. food for thought ....

Rob DiStefano

August 13th, 2012, 06:24 PM

i had 20 minutes of free time this afternoon and did what i shudda done from the get go - call red lion and talk with their tech support. for my speedy lathe winder, none of the afore mentioned optic i/r triggers, if i'd gotten any to actually work, would have been fast enuf for a lathe winding machine at around 2500rpm and above. i tried to see what triggers were used in the sidewinder and thomas machines, but couldn't make out any significant identifying labels. the red lion RRMDC optic i/r is the sensor i'll need and i just ordered one for $118. yeah, no longer a "cheap winding machine" but definitely uber simple - and will meet my requirements and needs.

harbor freight mini lathe = $130 (purchased from a local harbor freight store)
harbor freight speed control = $32 (already had it, bought years ago)
red lion cub 3L = $44 (delivered price)
red lion RRMDC0000 optic i/r sensor = $118 (delivered price)
total = $324

money spent on a variety of sensors, dc ps and assorted other crapola = about $30

getting the deal done right = priceless :mrgreen:

hope to have this up 'n' running next week, video too. :cool:

adirondak5

August 13th, 2012, 06:43 PM

Barncaster

August 14th, 2012, 10:37 AM

Hey Rob,

I'd really love to see a real time video of a 2500 rpm wind with commentary. I can't imagine 10000 winds in 4 minutes. That's crazy fast. It's the Steve Austin of winding machines!

Rob

Rob DiStefano

August 14th, 2012, 10:47 AM

herb - all in all it'd be about $50-$100 over a sidewinder or thomas. as long as it works very well, i could care less. it's a means to an end, that's simply beyond turning out a few coils a week or month. :cool:

rob - well, i sure do hope it all works as expected. hopefully get the sensor by no later than early next week. winding with the thomas at over 1800rpm is just too easy. i don't think 2000rpm would be any different, but at 2500rpm i have no clue. i'll see. without a doubt, a proper tensioning device is super important, even at 700rpm. as mentioned, once it's working, i'll do up a full coil video wind. :cool:

Joe Sailor

August 14th, 2012, 01:21 PM

Rob DiStefano

August 14th, 2012, 01:32 PM

I've been thinking about trying my hand at winding, and been loving these threads. Learned a lot, never even heard if a reed switch before. While a cheap sewing machine seems okay, I was eyeing my old blender, it seems really fast, has multiple speeds, and a nice square 1/4 inch post. Am I just crazier than normal?

jump in, git yer feet wet, try not to get in over yer head though. :twisted:

for a hobbyist winder, 500 to 700 rpm will more than satisfy to get the job done for the few times you'll be winding coils. most machines utilize dc motors as they will easily allow the use of a dpdt reverse switch and variable speed. some guyz are even doing direct drive motors.

the absolute biggest hurdle will be a reliable counter system, which really equates to finding a proper sensing trigger. reed switches just can't handle the speed, and optic i/r is the better way to go and what all the better machines use. FAST motors need better counters/sensors. some folks are finding good 5 digit + counters and simple optic i/r sensors for uber cheap. how best to mate a digital counter and optic i/r sensor is the next nut to crack. OR, don't even bother with a counter and judge the by the size of the coil and take a resistance measurement as the winding progresses. heck, for that matter, just rig up v/s drill or screwgun for coil winding! see the www.stewmac.com site for how to do it thisaway.

have fun, enjoy the ride! :cool:

Guitarnut

August 14th, 2012, 02:59 PM

getting the deal done right = priceless :mrgreen:

hope to have this up 'n' running next week, video too. :cool:

Hey, Rob. Looking forward to your progress and seeing the video. Sounds like you're going to have the upper echelon of winders when you're done. :cool:

Guitarnut

August 14th, 2012, 03:01 PM

My curiosity is up now. I just ordered a half dozen QRD1114 sensors. I'm going to test this thing for myself. Judging from it's data sheet, it should handle the rpm needed for PU winding at any level. Heck, it's rise and fall times are shown in microseconds...that's millionths of a second. It should do 10,000rpm without breaking a sweat.

I've seen an experiment with this sensor where the guy ran it up to 3300rpm with a drill. Probably could have gone faster but the drill maxed out. His data shows 2000 interrupts per second, or 120,000 per minute with no missed events.

Spin'r Up Experiment (http://messingwithreality.com/spinr-up/)

hS3KlE0FgKE

I also plan to use them to control an auto traverse.

We shall see...

Rob DiStefano

August 14th, 2012, 03:10 PM

My curiosity is up now. I just ordered a half dozen QRD1114 sensors. I'm going to test this thing for myself. Judging from it's data sheet, it should handle the rpm needed for PU winding at any level. Heck, it's rise and fall times are shown in microseconds...that's millionths of a second. It should do 10,000rpm without breaking a sweat.

I also plan to use them to control an auto traverse.

We shall see...

i'd love to see how you can get that qrd1114 sensor working, and if it can handle 700rpm let alone 3000rpm. what counter are you using?

Guitarnut

August 14th, 2012, 03:13 PM

i'd love to see how you can get that qrd1114 sensor working, and if it can handle 700rpm let alone 3000rpm. what counter are you using?

My plan is to use my existing winder with a target object on it. Then hook the sensor to a serial port on my mule computer. I have a software counter app that's designed for counting triggers off the serial bus. I'll run for a minute at various rpm ranges and compare the 2 counters.

Rob DiStefano

August 14th, 2012, 03:17 PM

My plan is to use my existing winder with a target object on it. Then hook the sensor to a serial port on my mule computer. I have a software counter app that's designed for counting triggers off the serial bus. I'll run for a minute at various rpm ranges and compare the 2 counters.

way cool - keep us in the loop!

Guitarnut

August 14th, 2012, 03:21 PM

way cool - keep us in the loop!

Will do...

I haven't run my winder at full speed but my guess would be it's in the 3000 to 4000 range. I'll check it this evening and see what kind of speeds we can expect to push the sensor to. I guess I could also test on my Shopsmith...I know it hits about 5200rpm.

nosmo

August 14th, 2012, 04:58 PM

Barncaster

August 14th, 2012, 05:10 PM

Cool - you can wind a pickup and mix a Margaritta at the same time :cool:

Jimmy Buffett mojo

Hmmmm, Parrothead Pickups. I kind of like the sound of that :-)

Joe Sailor

August 14th, 2012, 05:18 PM

Hmmmm, Parrothead Pickups. I kind of like the sound of that :-)

Parrothead Pickups, perfect with a Margarita pick me up!
Dibs on the name.

Guitarnut

August 14th, 2012, 06:50 PM

way cool - keep us in the loop!

I just checked the top speed on my coil winder. Looks like 3800rpm is the max I'll be able to test with it. Once I know the sensor setup is accurate, I can move it to the Shopsmith and try up to 5200rpm.

R. Stratenstein

August 14th, 2012, 11:24 PM

i'd love to see how you can get that qrd1114 sensor working, and if it can handle 700rpm let alone 3000rpm. what counter are you using?

Rob-- I did it yesterday. 1000 RPM at least. http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/341159-yet-another-pickup-winder-build-thread-2.html#post4370983
Rick

R. Stratenstein

August 15th, 2012, 12:07 AM

Guitarnut

August 15th, 2012, 06:52 AM

adirondak5

August 15th, 2012, 07:11 AM

Great job Rick :)

tklaavo

August 15th, 2012, 08:56 AM

Also, this is the counter I've ordered:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271030161848

Winning bid: $2.99 + $7.90 Shipping.

That's cheap.. there's still some left for about 13 dollars + shipping.. Let us know how it works when you get it. I've almost already added one to basket!

This is all very exciting. I just burned a 12 volt dimmer while doing some research... Don't know why - it was rated at 12V and 8A, the power supply shouldn't exceed that, but maybe it did. It wasn't regulated.. The motor I had was from an old cordless drill and had way too high rpm for this, but it still works.

I'll build a winder eventually, something like nosmo's. Thanks to everyone for all this great information!

Barncaster

August 15th, 2012, 09:17 AM

It's kind of a pain to try monitoring two threads I started so, I'm moving my winder build thread here. Official notice I'm abandoning my "Yet Another Pickup Winder Build" thread is hereby served.

Anyway, my post in response to Rob D's comment above, is my last post on that thread.

In a nutshell, I got my winder rewired, put back together, and did a timed test run in which it seemed to do just fine. I actually got a PM asking me to upload the video I did of it running, showing the counting (:shock:What! Don't believe me?:shock:), so I thought I'd kick things off here with that video.

I'm pretty impressed with Spin 'er Up video that Guitarnut posted, although I couldn't make out the figures on the computer screen in the background. 120K is pretty impressive speed. I'm happy that mine seems to work fine at my maximum motor speed of 1000 RPM. For a hobbyist, at least for now, that seems to be fast enough.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVaRUZ9VGJs">YouTube Link</a>

Well done Rick!

My only concern in this race for RPM is safety for everyone. Rob D's blast shield seems a great idea for all us double- faced tape guys. I may just go with a wearable face version. At 600 RPM however it shouldn't be a problem as every bobbin has been a fight to unstick after winding.... As speeds increase, screw fastening seems appropriate.

Rob

Barncaster

August 15th, 2012, 09:20 AM

That's cheap.. there's still some left for about 13 dollars + shipping.. Let us know how it works when you get it. I've almost already added one to basket!

This is all very exciting. I just burned a 12 volt dimmer while doing some research... Don't know why - it was rated at 12V and 8A, the power supply shouldn't exceed that, but maybe it did. It wasn't regulated.. The motor I had was from an old cordless drill and had way too high rpm for this, but it still works.

I'll build a winder eventually, something like nosmo's. Thanks to everyone for all this great information!

Hey T,

My second experiment with a dimmer switch and a drill motor cast me a $200 visit from the electrician. DC and sewing machine motors seem friendlier and less expensive places to start. :-)

Rob

tklaavo

August 15th, 2012, 09:50 AM

Hey T,

My second experiment with a dimmer switch and a drill motor cast me a $200 visit from the electrician. DC and sewing machine motors seem friendlier and less expensive places to start. :-)

Rob

Wow, what happened?
I had sparks flying too, but not from AC equipment, so no electrician needed yet..

tklaavo

August 15th, 2012, 09:53 AM

Well done Rick!
blast shield seems a great idea for all us double- faced tape guys. I may just go with a wearable face version.
Rob

How about this ?

http://www.sareskoski.com/kuvat/20120618150533___m.jpg

No, I'm not going to suggest to use the chainsaw for winding, though!

Barncaster

August 15th, 2012, 01:01 PM

Wow, what happened?
I had sparks flying too, but not from AC equipment, so no electrician needed yet..

Hey T,

The drill drew too much current for the dimmer and the dimmer made awful electrical death noises and my shop went black. Something happened to the circuit breaker which was old to begin with. The electrician showed me the secret way of resetting an old "soft" breaker and lightened my wallet $200 for said knowledge. The good thing was he got it all done on a Sunday morning while my wife was out. Saved some drama there........ That episode was documented early in my pickup winding thread. Worth a laugh if it wasn't so expensive.....

Rob

Barncaster

August 15th, 2012, 01:02 PM

How about this ?

No, I'm not going to suggest to use the chainsaw for winding, though!

Looks like Gen 1 Darth Vader.....

R. Stratenstein

August 15th, 2012, 05:02 PM

Hey, Rick. Outstanding job on the winder! I'm glad to see you had success with the sensor. And, the housing looks good, too. Very earthy and warm compared to plastic and metal. Mojo!!!

Very interesting about the the R1 value you ended up with. If I remember correctly, you're using a 5V supply to the sensor...regulated I believe. The Spin'r Up guy used 5V off the Arduino with a 220Ω R1 and got stellar results. He also use a 4.7K pull-up resistor and states in his notes that this value can be adjusted to set the sensitivity of the circuit. That could be the difference I suppose.

Well done, sir!

Peace,
Mark

Thanks, Mark. I appreciate the kind words.

I only viewed the Spin'r up video. I obviously need to go back and look at the notes. The main reason I didn't try the trimmer pot idea was that I didn't have one in my parts, and I'd already ordered the other parts. It's kinda crazy to pay $6 shipping on $7 worth of parts, plumb nuts to pay $6 shipping on .25 of parts. :razz:

My power supply is the wall-wart I showed in the video and photos, 5V, 2.1 A, rock steady output at 5.16 volts on the old Fluke-O-Meter.

My results (using the simpler circuit) were exactly the same using the 9V battery and the LM7805 power IC, and using the wall wart. In both cases, nothing happened when I used the 180 Ohm R1, Some sporadic counts with the 82 Ohm R1, and apparently, good results with 62 Ohm R1. Maybe my QRD114 is an oddball example of its type. . .:?:

It never occurred to me to use my Arduino's 5V output for power supply. Kind of overkill, and a lot of circuitry wasted, if that's all the Arduino is used for. But again, I have not reviewed Mr. Spinr Up's notes, so I don't know if he used a shield to interface with his computer, or what. Will do so forthwith.

R. Stratenstein

August 15th, 2012, 05:16 PM

Well done Rick!

My only concern in this race for RPM is safety for everyone. Rob D's blast shield seems a great idea for all us double- faced tape guys. I may just go with a wearable face version. At 600 RPM however it shouldn't be a problem as every bobbin has been a fight to unstick after winding.... As speeds increase, screw fastening seems appropriate.

Rob

Thanks, Rob!

It would be a terrible tragedy if somebody lost an eye doing something like this that should be 100% good fun! I agree wholeheartedly with you about face protection, and Rob D's idea for a blast shield as a part of the machine. (I have pictured one of those ballistic blankets they used to use on dragster transmissions, so grenading transmissions wouldn't take off the drivers' legs! :shock:) I don't anticipate too serious a hazard from 1000 RPM, which my motor is rated for, but I plan to use the center screw if for no other reason than as a safety catch, along with 2 sided tape. Flatwork I make will have the center hole. Face shield or at least safety glasses would be a good idea any way, cuz who knows when one of those slugs might fly outta there. You may laugh, but those slugs look a lot to my like .17 cal bullets, only without the pointed tip. The only difference is velocity, which a fast pup winder imparts plenty of!

Nice finessing of the electrical blow up while your wife was out. :mrgreen: I usually reserve my stunts for when my wife is watching over my shoulder, or at least where she can hear, and be startled by the CRACK of a major electrical problem, and frighten her enough so I am properly chastized for the next,,oh. . . 3 weeks or so:roll: Of course, even if my electrical burn out had happened while my wife was out, as soon as she came in, it'd be "what's that burning smell? Did you burn something up again?" Ahh, gee. I never get away with ANYTHING. :sad:

I think I really scared her when I told her I was thinking about getting into valve amp building. Mentioning me fooling around with 400 or so volts has that effect on her.

R. Stratenstein

August 15th, 2012, 05:21 PM

How about this ?

http://www.sareskoski.com/kuvat/20120618150533___m.jpg

No, I'm not going to suggest to use the chainsaw for winding, though!

LOL, tklavvo! I guess I could ask, why not? This seems to be a period of experimentation with various winder innovations. With the power and speed of the chainsaw, you could wind 1,000 pups at a time, in 1 minute! Now there's some production!

Rob DiStefano

August 15th, 2012, 05:30 PM

It's kind of a pain to try monitoring two threads I started so, I'm moving my winder build thread here. Official notice I'm abandoning my "Yet Another Pickup Winder Build" thread is hereby served.

Anyway, my post in response to Rob D's comment above, is my last post on that thread.

In a nutshell, I got my winder rewired, put back together, and did a timed test run in which it seemed to do just fine. I actually got a PM asking me to upload the video I did of it running, showing the counting (:shock:What! Don't believe me?:shock:), so I thought I'd kick things off here with that video.

I'm pretty impressed with Spin 'er Up video that Guitarnut posted, although I couldn't make out the figures on the computer screen in the background. 120K is pretty impressive speed. I'm happy that mine seems to work fine at my maximum motor speed of 1000 RPM. For a hobbyist, at least for now, that seems to be fast enough.

IVaRUZ9VGJs

rick, what counter and sensor are you using?

....

R. Stratenstein

August 15th, 2012, 05:34 PM

rick, what counter and sensor are you using?

....

Hi, Rob--

I'm using the QRD1114 sensor, and the Red Lion Cub 3R counter. I can post an updated schematic, if you want.

Rick

Rob DiStefano

August 15th, 2012, 05:39 PM

Hi, Rob--

I'm using the QRD1114 sensor, and the Red Lion Cub 3R counter. I can post an updated schematic, if you want.

Rick

yeah, would appreciate the schmatic, thanx. i've still got a bunch qrd1114's and another counter coming to mess with. :mrgreen:

sensor to reflective object space? what are you using to reflect, and what's its size?

....

jimdkc

August 15th, 2012, 06:10 PM

Interesting... the Spin'r Up guy is only using 15mA of drive current for the IR LED...

I can't for the life of me figure out why Rick needs so to push it so hard!

Rob DiStefano

August 15th, 2012, 06:16 PM

Interesting... the Spin'r Up guy is only using 15mA of drive current for the IR LED...

I can't for the life of me figure out why Rick needs so to push it so hard!

easy - electricity is really all about black magic, smoke, and mirrors. :mrgreen:

R. Stratenstein

August 15th, 2012, 07:17 PM

See schematic below:

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/Version4LightTriggerwithPowerSupply.jpg.

I also drew the pin ID diagram from the data sheet. Not implying you had trouble with it, but I did, it's a bit confusing. The numbers on the diagram correspond with those on the schematic to the right.

I took out the reset circuit that I used, cuz apparently I'm the only one with a 3R and the flying lead for reset.

Values for R1 are anywhere from 220 ohms down to 68 ohms. I could only get mine to work with 68 ohms.

Here's a shot of the reflector on the backside of the winder beam:

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5612.jpg

And here's another with a ruler for scale. The piece I used measures about 1-5/16" long by 5/8" wide.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5611.jpg

The reflector material I used came from Home Depot, in the hardware section where the signs like "For Sale", "House For Rent", and street numbers, etc. are.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5616.jpg

Cost about $2.50 as I recall, for 2 white and 2 red strips. Almost overlooked them, because the red ones were in front.

I had earlier estimated the distance from the reflector to the sensor at about 1/32". It's actually more like 1/16" to 3/32".

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5614.jpg

Ruler doesn't help much in this photo, but you can see how close the black square sensor is to the reflective piece in front of it. Please ignore the sloppy stain job on the wood in the background. :oops:

I hate it when I can't get a project to work like its supposed to. If it makes you feel any better, I've got a compressor pedal I built collecting dust for about 9 months now, because the guts work fine out of the box, but in the box, it won't work at all. Clearly a grounding problem, but I am too stupid to see it. Have combed and combed and combed through until I'm so frustrated, I've just given up for a while. Or maybe I'm looking for a grounding problem and it isn't that at all ?? Who knows? Certainly not me, not right now, anyway. :roll:

R. Stratenstein

August 15th, 2012, 07:19 PM

easy - electricity is really all about black magic, smoke, and mirrors. :mrgreen:

Yeah, maybe some of the smoke leaked out of it, so it doesn't work like its supposed to!

R. Stratenstein

August 15th, 2012, 07:30 PM

Interesting... the Spin'r Up guy is only using 15mA of drive current for the IR LED...

I can't for the life of me figure out why Rick needs so to push it so hard!

Would the pull-up resistor affect the R1 value that much?

Guitarnut

August 15th, 2012, 08:57 PM

Would the pull-up resistor affect the R1 value that much?

My guess would be that it depends on what the output is feeding...Arduino, Cub counter or other. And I'm not sure it affects R1 as much as it affects the sensitivity of the phototransistor. But, that's just a guess. :shock:

R. Stratenstein

August 15th, 2012, 11:38 PM

My guess would be that it depends on what the output is feeding...Arduino, Cub counter or other. And I'm not sure it affects R1 as much as it affects the sensitivity of the phototransistor. But, that's just a guess. :shock:

You're right. I took a little more time to study the breadboard shot he posted. Couldn't find a schematic, I guess he figured its too simple. Anyway, as I read the breadboard, the pullup resistors would have NO effect on R1 value that I can see. Unless the pullup resistor makes the IR sensor so very sensitive that extremely low light levels are needed to trigger an "event".

Damn clever how he used the high frequency and low frequency patterns on the reflector drum to make a comparator to do the error checking! I wondered how he could be so damn sure what his count and RPM values were. Electrickery at its finest!

Bentley

August 15th, 2012, 11:54 PM

I think I really scared her when I told her I was thinking about getting into valve amp building. Mentioning me fooling around with 400 or so volts has that effect on her.

Volt's don't kill you, you can touch van de graff machines that generate 20 000 volts and not get hurt, it's the amperes that'll get ya! :cool:

adirondak5

August 16th, 2012, 07:29 AM

I think I really scared her when I told her I was thinking about getting into valve amp building. Mentioning me fooling around with 400 or so volts has that effect on her.

Ha , I didn't tell my wife about that part of amp building when I started .

jimdkc

August 16th, 2012, 08:36 AM

I looked up the datasheets for CUB3 counters. The models with "L" in the suffix are powered by a 3.6V Lithium battery, while no "L" models are powered by 2 - 1.5V Alkaline N cell batteries (3V total). The models with "R" in the suffix have remote reset and no front panel button, no "R" models are reset via a front panel button.

So...

CUB3 - Alkaline batteries, Pushbutton reset on front panel
CUB3R - Alkaline batteries, Remote reset via extra wire
CUB3L - Lithium battery, Pushbutton reset on front panel
CUB3LR - Lithium battery, Remote reset via extra wire

Also, the datasheet for the alkaline battery models show how to replace the batteries. The Lithium batteries are not intended to be user replaceable.

The triggering (count input) for all these models is identical... Either a switch or transistor. The pull-up resistor for this circuit is internal to the counter. An external pull-up is not necessary, or desirable (you'd be pulling the voltage up to a different power source than the counter is powered from...)

And... I think I've figured out what's going on with Rick's counter! The schematic he posted clued me in!

The transistor is connected backwards. Emitter should go to common, Collector should go to count.

Now, a transistor is NOT a symmetrical device. Base to Collector and Base to Emitter are both similar PN junctions, but are not identical (a full discussion of this is outside the scope of this... and I'd have to dredge up some nasty physics stuff I haven't used for 30 years!)

The PN junctions in the transistor are similar enough, however, that what I believe is happening here is that Rick is hitting it with a high enough IR signal (by virtue of pumping 50mA through the IR LED) that it is actually turning the transistor on BACKWARDS...

I believe the only saving grace that hasn't destroyed the phototransistor is the fact that this is only a 3.6 volt circuit. If it were a 5V or higher circuit, you probably would have fried the transistor... The phototransistor specs say maximum reverse voltage is 5V.

Rick, I believe if you reverse the pin 1 and 2 phototransistor leads, you could increase the LED resistor to 220Ω and drive it at a much safer 15mA level. (Overdriving it as you are WILL decrease its life!)

jimdkc

August 16th, 2012, 09:20 AM

By the way... I'm still waiting on my RPR-220 photosensors from China... The estimated delivery is 08/21/12 - 09/04/12... (sigh...)

The specs on my RPR-220's are quite similar to the QRD1114's, except the reflective distance is listed as 6mm (.236") instead of .05". Also, the "Reflector object" listed in the specs: plain white paper!

R. Stratenstein

August 16th, 2012, 10:27 PM

[

And... I think I've figured out what's going on with Rick's counter! The schematic he posted clued me in!

The transistor is connected backwards. Emitter should go to common, Collector should go to count.

Now, a transistor is NOT a symmetrical device. Base to Collector and Base to Emitter are both similar PN junctions, but are not identical (a full discussion of this is outside the scope of this... and I'd have to dredge up some nasty physics stuff I haven't used for 30 years!)

The PN junctions in the transistor are similar enough, however, that what I believe is happening here is that Rick is hitting it with a high enough IR signal (by virtue of pumping 50mA through the IR LED) that it is actually turning the transistor on BACKWARDS...

I believe the only saving grace that hasn't destroyed the phototransistor is the fact that this is only a 3.6 volt circuit. If it were a 5V or higher circuit, you probably would have fried the transistor... The phototransistor specs say maximum reverse voltage is 5V.

Rick, I believe if you reverse the pin 1 and 2 phototransistor leads, you could increase the LED resistor to 220Ω and drive it at a much safer 15mA level. (Overdriving it as you are WILL decrease its life!)[/QUOTE]

Jim, it did not work at all with the phototransistor leads connected reverse from how I have them. I might give it another shot at lowering the amp level when I get my other 2 strat pups wound. Don't want to mess around with it just now while it's working. If I burn out the QRD114, I've got 3 more to go. . .:grin:

R. Stratenstein

August 16th, 2012, 11:15 PM

Well, tonight I became a pickup-windin' man. BARELY. . .:shock:

Here's how it went:

I wanted to do one last test to assure myself the counter's trigger circuit was picking up each roatation but not adding any.

So I reasoned that if I wound a number of turns on a bobbin, unwinding the same turns would double the count, right?

So here's the setup. Got my bobbin double-foam-taped and center screwed to the winder, and 230 turns of some old fishing line I stole from the Smithsonian museum. Have you ever seen an older reel of fishing line? And no cracks from you young guys about "extra limp". You're gonna get old someday too--if you don't go around making fun of old guys. :smile:

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5620.jpg

Wound on 230 turns. . .

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5621.jpg

Wound off 459. Probably some physics or electronics thing I don't understand that ate my missing turn. But close enough. I'm lighting my cigar, and putting on some winding music.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5622.jpg

A few days ago, I ordered up a Lonnie Mack CD of his greatest hits. Memphis is probably the one song most responsible for me getting interested in electric guitars. He was also an idol of SRV, if you haven't listened to Wham by SRV, it's excellent cover. Anyway, we're winding to Lonnie Mack tonight. Lonnie even autographed my CD case insert:mrgreen:
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5609.jpg

Broke out the impossibly thin, fine 42 gauge wire. . .

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5624.jpg

Actually, the wire was a bit more robust than I'd been led to believe. The old crappy junk pickups I've taken apart before had windings that were at least 2-4 times thicker.

Anyway, got everything arranged, clamped on Rob DiStefano's velcro tension device, had the winder set to go the right direction, and off we go. Piece of cake! Easy. Watch this, I'll change hands! Hmmm, maybe I'll just whip out a dozen or so of these things, won't take more than 15 minutes. . . Stopped at about 4000 turns to look things over, and except for the coil being a wee bit looser than I'd like, everything's go. I decide I can wind one-handed and shoot video with my other hand. Video goes OK. (maybe will post tomorrwo)

I hadn't noticed that B*stard Murphy had crept up from the basement shop to my office where the winder is. I was getting frankly, a bit too cocky for my own good. Cranked the speed way up.

WHAM! DEE-ZASTER! All of a sudden there were some weird tugs on the wire, and I could see loops of it forming around places it shouldn't be forming. In my panic, I cranked the speed knob up to max for a second before I recover and turn it off. It's bad enough. . .

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5627.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5628.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5629.jpg

It's a bigger mess than it looks like in these shots, and it's too deep in to unwind and try to do a partial rewind. :cry::cry::cry:

R. Stratenstein

August 16th, 2012, 11:34 PM

Dang it, nothing to do but cut it off and try again. This is an expensive mistake. It feels like losing a boxing match. Not only do you lose the game, you get some pain to remind you that you lost. D'OH

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5630.jpg

4000 turns--half of a full humbucker--shot to hell!

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5631.jpg

My analysis of the problem is that I was too complacent--it seemed too easy at first. Also, I had my collars set a wee bit too wide-every so often I could feel the wire scrape along the surface of the flatwork. And most of all, I don't have any experience with the tensioning device. I think it's a great idea, but I was being very timid about squeezing down on the wire to get some decent tension on the winds, because I was afraid to break the wire. Like I said, the wire is more robust that I'd been lead to believe. I think more than anything, I was not winding with enough tension to keep tight, well-positoned turns.

So I started up again, going more slowly, feeding traverse slowly and carefully, and I think, with more tension on the wire. I was shooting for 8000 turns, but started having looping problems again around 7850 turns, so I called it good.

Counter shows a few extra turns I made to unwind looped wire.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5637.jpg

I have to confess, I pushed a couple of loops back into the coil, and covered 'em up with more turns of wire. Probably gonna be some confused electrons going merrily along for 7700 turns or so, then Whoa! what's this, a 180, then another! Consider it my patented internal hum bucking reverse wind feature. No extra charge.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5636.jpg

There are also some loose winds that I was afraid would lop out over the edge of the bobbin and get pinched off by the pickup cover, so I taped the coil, and ran super glue along the edge of the tape where it meets the flatwork. Pretty, No. Successful? Let's see- - -

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5635.jpg

Hot Damn! 5.91k ohms--right smack dab in the the range for Strat pups. I'm calling this a wrap. Next stop is magnetizing and potting. Sorry, with this loose coil, I feel like I gotta pot it. Besides, I bought all this beeswax. . .

This one, being a bit underwound--where would it sound best, bridge, middle or neck of a Strat?

Bentley

August 17th, 2012, 12:49 AM

Guess you'll have to make 3 pups and decide which will be best for each position. ;)

Barncaster

August 17th, 2012, 01:18 AM

Dang it, nothing to do but cut it off and try again. This is an expensive mistake. It feels like losing a boxing match. Not only do you lose the game, you get some pain to remind you that you lost. D'OH

[/IMG]

4000 turns--half of a full humbucker--shot to hell!

[/IMG]

My analysis of the problem is that I was too complacent--it seemed too easy at first. Also, I had my collars set a wee bit too wide-every so often I could feel the wire scrape along the surface of the flatwork. And most of all, I don't have any experience with the tensioning device. I think it's a great idea, but I was being very timid about squeezing down on the wire to get some decent tension on the winds, because I was afraid to break the wire. Like I said, the wire is more robust that I'd been lead to believe. I think more than anything, I was not winding with enough tension to keep tight, well-positoned turns.

So I started up again, going more slowly, feeding traverse slowly and carefully, and I think, with more tension on the wire. I was shooting for 8000 turns, but started having looping problems again around 7850 turns, so I called it good.

Counter shows a few extra turns I made to unwind looped wire.

[/IMG]

I have to confess, I pushed a couple of loops back into the coil, and covered 'em up with more turns of wire. Probably gonna be some confused electrons going merrily along for 7700 turns or so, then Whoa! what's this, a 180, then another! Consider it my patented internal hum bucking reverse wind feature. No extra charge.

[/IMG]

There are also some loose winds that I was afraid would lop out over the edge of the bobbin and get pinched off by the pickup cover, so I taped the coil, and ran super glue along the edge of the tape where it meets the flatwork. Pretty, No. Successful? Let's see- - -

[/IMG]

Hot Damn! 5.91k ohms--right smack dab in the the range for Strat pups. I'm calling this a wrap. Next stop is magnetizing and potting. Sorry, with this loose coil, I feel like I gotta pot it. Besides, I bought all this beeswax. . .

This one, being a bit underwound--where would it sound best, bridge, middle or neck of a Strat?

Sweeeeet Rick!

Honestly, we should only care about what they sound like. This OCD stuff has to go. Fez winds em loose and says there awesome. 5.91 would be a really nice neck pup. That's about what my first Firebird neck pickup was. You'll love it. I've been thinking, which is dangerous but why don't folks string wrap Strat pups? I think it would look awesome. Give us a video!

Rob

jimdkc

August 17th, 2012, 01:47 AM

Don't want to mess around with it just now while it's working. If I burn out the QRD114, I've got 3 more to go. . .:grin:

Oh, I understand... If it works... It works!

But, it does explain WHY you have to drive the LED so hard.

As to reduced life... You're just at the edge of the spec, so I can't really say if it will last 10 more minutes, or 10 more years!

nosmo

August 17th, 2012, 02:52 PM

Bentley

August 17th, 2012, 03:29 PM

R. Stratenstein

August 17th, 2012, 07:13 PM

You have no idea how much this is helping me. I have seen the Bozo hair PU pictures so many times in threads, I have already come up with a plan B for when I do it. I'm just going to rename my winder to something like Copper Wool Pad Fabricator and I'll use the results to polish out my finishes. That way I can say 'I meant to do that' :grin:

I was visited by the Gawds of Pickup Winding last night in a dream. They informed me: "It is written ye shall chump at least one coil, and wasteth painfully expensive copper wire, and cutteth it into small shards which resemble the hair of hamburger clowns or hamburger girls. No one shall windeth a successful pickup lest he ruineth at least one of his efforts so."

but you may be on to something about polishing. I was holding this handful of copper wool last night wondering, jeez, there must be SOMETHING I can do with this stuff.

R. Stratenstein

August 17th, 2012, 07:19 PM

Sweeeeet Rick!

Honestly, we should only care about what they sound like. This OCD stuff has to go. Fez winds em loose and says there awesome. 5.91 would be a really nice neck pup. That's about what my first Firebird neck pickup was. You'll love it. I've been thinking, which is dangerous but why don't folks string wrap Strat pups? I think it would look awesome. Give us a video!

Rob

You're right, Rob. Maybe since I don't have a mule, I should build a test board with some cheapo tuning machines, pots, etc. to see how it sounds.

Funny you should mention string winding Strat pups. Cleaning out the garage a couple of weeks ago, I found a roll of string that looks very similar to Tele pup winding string, and thought, "hey, I'm gonna set this aside and finish off some pups with this" Did not think of it in this case, and actually the coil was loose and 'puffy' enough so there was room only for tape, or the covers wouldn't fit. But string wound and potted, it would probably be protected enough to mount without the cover. I'll see how the other two come out, and retrieve the roll of string, just in case.

Oh, I understand... If it works... It works!

But, it does explain WHY you have to drive the LED so hard.

As to reduced life... You're just at the edge of the spec, so I can't really say if it will last 10 more minutes, or 10 more years!

I am going to try to do it "right. You do like it when something works like it should, and when it works when something's wrong, it's a bonus, but makes you nervous--that's where I am right now. :lol:

adirondak5

August 17th, 2012, 09:09 PM

Dang it, nothing to do but cut it off and try again. This is an expensive mistake. It feels like losing a boxing match. Not only do you lose the game, you get some pain to remind you that you lost. D'OH

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5630.jpg

4000 turns--half of a full humbucker--shot to hell!

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/Pickup%20Winder/IMG_5631.jpg

It happens Rick , not to worry , even a bit of broken wire is education , and gives the rest of us an razz opp. :lol: , won't be the last time Ronald McDonald loses his hair , for me too .

http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/adirondak50/image.jpg?t=1345251743

Barncaster

August 18th, 2012, 02:25 AM

Hey Rick,

No worries man. Ronald visits every winder at some time. At least your coil wasn't saturated with uncured CA when you had the hair-fest...... or was it? :shock: Keep going, you can do it!

Rob

Rob DiStefano

August 18th, 2012, 06:28 AM

stick with it, rick - there are dues to pay for everything in life and those that don't pay them sooner will just pay them later, and maybe harder, too. winding coils with hair wire takes some getting used to, and once you get yer winding chops, you'll be good to go.

i wound 7 pups last night - 4 tele bridge lions and 3 tele neck lioness coils. if yer lax about anything, murphy will smite you hard and fast. i took a chance of reusing the platform double stick tape for a fourth time at over 1800rpm, and with 6700 turns of the required 8500 turns laid down, the lioness bobbin loosened, hit the blast shield, and went into orbit. i dunno why, it never ceases to amaze me, but i've yet to break a coil wire when a coil spins off the platform. and that was 43awg plain enamel coil wire, too. unfortunately, the top flatware on the lion got dented and that bobbin, and wire, is useless. i'll salvage the magnets, lick my wounds, and build another lioness. lesson learned - ONE reuse of the 3m tape only!

oh where oh where is my live center lathe winder?!?!?!?!?!? :twisted:

....

R. Stratenstein

August 18th, 2012, 01:16 PM

Ouch, Rob, that hurts. Live center will totally cure THAT problem.
7 pups at 1800 RPM, in one night is pretty intimidating at this point. . .
Are you having any luck with the IR trigger circuit for your Cub counter?

R. Stratenstein

August 18th, 2012, 01:20 PM

jimdkc

August 18th, 2012, 01:38 PM

My understanding is that having the wire spool turn leads to breaks when you stop/start or make speed changes.

nosmo

August 18th, 2012, 01:55 PM

I was looking for some PU info yesterday and I ran across this article.

http://online.physics.uiuc.edu/courses/phys406/Student_Projects/Spring10/Dan_Carson/Dan_Carson_P498POM_Final_Report_Sp10.pdf

Somewhere in there he says 42AWG wire can be rolled off the spool but 43AWG is too fine and needs to come off the end. Seems like if you can have the wire roll off (make sure you go top to top or bottom to bottom to eliminate twisting) that would be the best way. I guess you have to start slowly and build up to speed to overcome the initial shock to the wire. I bet you have to stop slowly also to keep the spool form backlashing. I don't know but maybe this will help.

Rob DiStefano

August 18th, 2012, 03:02 PM

Rob DiStefano

August 18th, 2012, 03:03 PM

Has anybody ever tried using a spool axle support, so pup wire actually spools off the reel, rather than sitting on the floor and having the wire slide off the side of the spool? .....

HUGE no-no.

just let coil wire unwind off its spool and yer good to go.

Guitarnut

August 18th, 2012, 03:33 PM

Has anybody ever tried using a spool axle support, so pup wire actually spools off the reel, rather than sitting on the floor and having the wire slide off the side of the spool? At least with the small spool I was using on my first wind, it seemed like the wire was strong enough to pull the spool around.
I thought I felt little kinks go through my tension pads every so often, and was wondering if spooling off would stop that from happening.

Or are the larger spools too big and heavy to do this with?

Spooling the wire would require a fairly intricate feed system. As the PU coil gets larger more wire per wrap is needed. And, with each pass the diameter of the wire remaining on the spool would get smaller requiring a faster feed rate if the coil winder is to maintain winding speed. The tape path of a reel to reel tape machine comes to mind, but the reels constantly change speed to keep pace with the capstan and pinch rollers. A fool-proof tension system would be needed or, as Jim pointed out, breakage during start up would be an issue.