Intonation problem on telecaster

Im new to Guitar setup and maintenance and have been learning how to set my guitar up properly.

I know the basic steps off intonating the guitar. I start of by tuning the guitar up to pitch and then checking the 12th fret harmonic with the 12th fret fretted note and adjust the saddles accordingly I then tune the string back upto pitch again. After doing this the note always seems to stay sharp how ever much I adjust bridge saddles. I will get close, tune up my guitar to pitch again and the tuner will just show up as the note being sharp

Is there a rough measurement the saddles should be at before you start intonating guitar?

I have taken a picture of the position my saddles are in at the moment:

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/3797/photobbh.jpg

also I am using Ernie ball skinny bottom heavy top strings
the string gauges are: 10,13,17,30,42,52

Any help would be appreciated.

cheers

Did you start adjusting the truss rod so that the relief is set properly?

The harmonic isn't accurate enough to use effectively. You need to compare the fretted note to the open note, and you need to test different frets as well. It's not possible to get it perfect everywhere on the neck, but you can find a compromise that makes it sound good enough everywhere.

You also need to be using a pretty accurate tuner. It helps to be testing the guitar in playing position. If you're resting the guitar on a typical bench rest, it's pushing the neck forward enough to make a difference. If the guitar is just resting on the body, the weight of the neck is pulling the strings sharp enough to make a difference.

Welcome aboard.
Fender has a page dedicated to Telecaster setup. There is a section with rough measurements for the saddles. I always find it best to use the open string to the 12th fretted note for intonation. I don't use the harmonic.

http://www.fender.com/support/articles/telecaster-setup-guide

A good setup must be done in this order: neck relief, action height, and then intonation. Adjusting relief or action will always affect intonation. Make sure you're doing the setup in the correct order.

I don't use harmonics either.

Make sure you don't press hard or sideways when you fret the 12th, which will pull it sharp.

I don't use harmonics either. Just open, then lightly fret the 12th.

I'm a bit confused. If you use the open the string rather than 12th fret harmonic, you are comparing an octave rather than a unison. I.e. you are not matching pitches at all!

Not sure why so many of you feel the harmonic is unusable, where did that theory come from? It does have a different timbre but so .... ? Or are you chaps all using an electronic tuner to match these pitches rather than ears? Is the operative theory here that the harmonic somehow fools the tuner? Never heard that before.

I'm all ears ... Pile on!

Brian

I'm a bit confused. If you use the open the string rather than 12th fret harmonic, you are comparing an octave rather than a unison. I.e. you are not matching pitches at all!

Not sure why so many of you feel the harmonic is unusable, where did that theory come from? It does have a different timbre but so .... ? Or are you chaps all using an electronic tuner to match these pitches rather than ears? Is the operative theory here that the harmonic somehow fools the tuner? Never heard that before.

I'm all ears ... Pile on!

Brian

Use a tuner

There are two reasons why the harmonic isn't reliable for intonation:

1. Part of the reason the string needs to be intonated in the first place is because it needs to be slightly stretched in order to be fretted. When you play the harmonic, the string is not stretched at all.

2. If you play the harmonic anywhere except the precise mathematical node point, the note sounded will be slightly off of pitch.

> When you play the harmonic, the string is not stretched at all.

And when you play the open string, the string isn't stretched at all! :shock:

The whole exercise of compensating the string length is so the 12th fret note (with the inevitable stretching) matches the half-length natural harmonic.

You may not feel the harmonic is reliable, but that's the only real choice in this endeavor, and certainly gets us more than close enough.

Brian

>You may not feel the harmonic is reliable, but that's the only real choice in this endeavor

A tuner???

unlikenon-fretted string insturments, guitars are deflected string instruments with predetermined stops (aka "frets"). when you fret a string, depressing it down to meet the fret and your finger to meet the fingerboard, sharpens the note. striking the harmonic at that fret will be at least a few cents flatter because the string isn't deflected/sharpened. don't tune and intonate with harmonics.

> A tuner???

You're confused.

You can use a tuner or your ears to compare the pitches, but either way the proper comparison is between the 12th fret note and harmonic (a unison comparison.)

Brian

Rob,

By definition the 12th fret harmonic is one octave above the open string. In that sense it is a useful proxy for the open string pitch. You can tune and intonate after a fashion without using harmonics, but why bother? As long as the harmonics are not used in an error-compounding (i.e. invalid) tuning scheme, there's a reason why harmonics feature prominently in tried-and-true schema that have been accepted and used successfully for centuries.

Brian

If the string is properly intonated, the harmonic directly above the 12th fret will not be purely the octave and will be 'contaminated' if you will by other complex waveforms.

Also, my tuner (Boss TU-3) doesn't require me to strike two notes to tell me the pitch of one... :smile: and since intonation is about getting the fretted notes to be in tune and tempered why should I waste time on some proxy of the quality im trying to adjust. A tuner will tell me if my 12th fretted note is e.g. a "D", directly. Sounds good to me.

brian,

i don't play harmonics, i play both fretted notes and those 6 open note strings. i want to know that those open note strings are 8va to the closed, 12th fretted note note strings. as with most guitarists, it's a moot point since we all compromise some or most of those 6 strings in order be "in tune" across the board. tuning and intonating via harmonics is a mistake. but to each their own.

rob.

The subject of tuning and intonation is highly, well, subjective. You all can use whatever method floats your boat, but until I hear you play the guitar you set up and tuned to your satisfaction, and it sounds pleasing to my ears, it's all just blather. Oh, and playing guitar with a bass, and even another guitar, is a whole lot different from playing with keyboard and horns. So there's sweetened to sound good solo vs being able to blend in with the orchestra. In any case, ultimately either the audience or the record producer will decide if you sound in tune. Having spent decades playing in mixed ensembles both in academia and on the professional stage, I trust my ears implicitly, and I trust my tuning/intonating method, and it happens to be based on one of the harmonic-based systems you all seem to eager to boot out the door as somehow archaic.

There's no winning this argument via a written forum, only hearing is believing.

Brian

The subject of tuning and intonation is highly, well, subjective. You all can use whatever method floats your boat, but until I hear you play the guitar you set up and tuned to your satisfaction, and it sounds pleasing to my ears, it's all just blather. Oh, and playing guitar with a bass, and even another guitar, is a whole lot different from playing with keyboard and horns. So there's sweetened to sound good solo vs being able to blend in with the orchestra. In any case, ultimately either the audience or the record producer will decide if you sound in tune. Having spent decades playing in mixed ensembles both in academia and on the professional stage, I trust my ears implicitly, and I trust my tuning/intonating method, and it happens to be based on one of the harmonic-based systems you all seem to eager to boot out the door as somehow archaic.

There's no winning this argument via a written forum, only hearing is believing.

Brian

dude, whatever floats Your boat. it's all good if yer happy with yer results, which is all that matters - in tune or not. :cool:

I keep invoking Arlo Guthrie here, but once more with feeling:

Once you take acid you realize there's no such thing as "in tune."

I keep invoking Arlo Guthrie here, but once more with feeling:

Once you take acid you realize there's no such thing as "in tune."

too funny! and too freakin' true! :mrgreen:

An octave harmonic can not be lower than double the fundamental. It's just plain physically impossible. If my fundamental is A=440, my octave harmonic will be double that at A=880. It is possible, due to inharmonicity, to have an octave harmonic which is slightly higher than an exact doubling of the fundamental. Inharmonicity is caused by stiffness of the steel itself. Over the whole length of the string, stiffness doesn't exert much influence, but as we divide the string into smaller harmonic lengths, the stiffness prevents full excursion. So, that section returns to center sooner, which means a higher pitch. A theoretically 'perfect' string would be flexible, like a chain.

If harmonics are inaccurate, that's news to this piano technician! In fact, not only are harmonics 'accurate', they are more accurate than fundamentals because the beat rates are faster. A faster beat rate is like riding a bicycle in a higher gear, or turning up the resolution on your microscope.

So, it is possible to have an octave harmonic which, due to inharmonicity, is slightly higher than an exact doubling of the fundamental. You'll need a machine to measure this. Your ears can only compare pitches played at the same time, the machine has 'memory', and the distance will be quite small. In theory, it should be better to intone so that the 12th fret pitch is an exact doubling of the fundamental, rather than match the harmonic (which could be a tad sharp).

pianos are not deflected string instruments, and therein lies the difference.

open string and 8va 12 fret harmonics are fine, but since most of us deflect the string during playing (fretting), that will sharpen a note to some degree whether we like it or not. so, it makes more sense to intonate the way we play, by fretting at the 12th fret as compared to the open string. ymmv.

I use what ever is convenient. But I have found when properly intonated the harmonic and the fret are the same according to a fairly decent tuner. I believe that under certain theoretical circumstances, the harmonic could be very slightly higher but If have never experienced it myself.

(Actually, if you are in a group with a piano, you end up under its mercy as to what and A or E is. Can't use a tuner when they want to go European, but the harmonic still remains.)

Ed

So there's sweetened to sound good solo vs being able to blend in with the orchestra.
...omg, tell me about it! :roll:

Once you take acid you realize there's no such thing as "in tune."
...same reply. :twisted: ...actually, i wish some one would have told me that...before i started tuning! :confused: anytime during that unduly elongated "adventure" would've been nice, too. :shock:

I just play the first D chord 23200X until it sounds right .If D is OK then its in tune .I know this a bit agricultural but it works for me . You cant intone most acoustics so why bother with electrics either after a basic set up .I have played a strat parts caster at several jam sessions and everyone likes it.I had to drill out my own bridge mounting holes .I realized the other day that I had put the Wilkingson bridge on and not ever checked the intonation , just tuned it up and away we go :grin:.I still havnt .It plays fine and sounds great .i think maybe some more playing and less friggin around trying to achieve what many deem impossible is what is called for ,but ...............:twisted::grin:

this was fascinating, especially since just the other day i told a buddy i thought i needed to "adjust" my tuning attitude to slightly sharper. get 'er done.

I know how I like it and that's what I do. Fret the twelfth. The harmonic I believe is just above the twelfth and at other spots but how accurately are you placing your finger directly above the twelfth fret. The fret never moves so if you actually fret it, I think theoretically that should be more accurate. Regardless I have watched a fairly accurate tuner while fretting notes (100 cents per semitone accurate) and I have actually found that there are times I bend the string to 20 cents off ( not really intentionally but it happens) and then being extremely careful not to bend the string it can be bang on. In actual playing I feel one is going to end up playing the note the way they want to hear it. In reality then one should do it whatever way makes them happy. I prefer to fret the twelfth. String height makes a huge difference and too much of the same will definitely cause the 12 fretted note to be sharper than it should. I wasted a lot of time on intonation at one point and when I do it my way and it is all on, it definitely sounds best. Even open strings sound better properly intonated for some reason. If the harmonic works well and you're on or above the exact point where it should occur best, directly above the fret and then fretting it shows sharp then I would be looking at string height and errant string bending as the most likely culprit. If the fret board is perfectly flat and true and the string height is not too high, the 12th note should not go sharp. I have found that it takes a pretty good neck setup to achieve this which must be done first before messing with intonation which is the last thing I work on. I don't understand how playing any chord can check intonation but I still have a lot to learn. I would like to hear the reasoning behind that theory so I can learn more.
There was a time I checked intonation every time I tuned up for the day. Nowadays I find once you get it on, there is not much reason to go back and check it too often. It IS worth it to get it right once though in my opinion. When I am actually playing will the twelfth note within a musical passage show up as being intonated every time I fret that note? I seriously doubt it due to the variables in my fretting technique while I impart feelings into my playing. A computer will play the note right on all the time but a person's mood and feelings show through by varying the notes in a wide variety of ways. Is anyone ever going to say let's play a song but I want the 12th fret to be bang on every time? Not likely. People sound much better than computers playback because of the varying notes to each musicians preference does it not? 2 points in closing this post I wasn't going to post in the first place pertaining to the writing and playing of music.
1. Perfection is ugly
2. Music is what FEELINGS sound like.
One point on intonation
1. Everything sounds better to my ear when the beginning is a properly intonated string (fretted).
That's just my opinion and I am no Sound Engineer, Luthier or Accomplished guitarist but I have set up 40 or 50 guitars and that's what I have learned so far.
On acoustics I bought a Fender acoustic a month or so ago and when checking intonation after a few weeks of tweaking the action and string height and tuned to pitch, I find it is right on as I have found with a few acoustics I have owned. That took lowering the bridge saddle AND the nut string slots. (psst a new epiphone required no adjustments at all). Like I said before, once it is intonated once, it usually stays pretty close especially if you stick to the same strings and everything else is brought up to snuff first.
Oddly, I have never found a used electric that was even close and some I have purchased (and most sold now) had been used for years. The vast majority of people out there messing with guitars are doing it very very wrong. Sometimes I would just eyeball the bridge quick and often tell myself "I can make that sound a whole lot better."
The people here who really know their stuff have indirectly (from sifting through posts and trying things) taught me how to do it the way I personally have determined to be best. A real good proper neck setup first is imperative. The right bridge in the right place for the fretboard radius, and string type seems to have proven very important as well as well as what has already been mentioned.
Everyone will never agree on the methodology for achieving proper intonation, that"s for sure. DO what makes YOU happy.
I'll shut up now.

T
2. If you play the harmonic anywhere except the precise mathematical node point, the note sounded will be slightly off of pitch.

I usually find myself in agreement with you, but there is no way to to mis-play a harmonic by having your finger slightly misplaced. Because it is a harmonic, it is the only thing that will create a sound (non fretted) anywhere near the harmonic point.

No opinion on the sharpening or flattening (you guys ought to get into agreement) due to string anomalies, etc. But the harmonic is usually "correct". Intonation is about getting the deflected fretted string at the same pitch. Just a technicality, since with a good tuner you can omit the harmonic and look at the light or needle or whatever.

Ed

i don't understand what can't be understood about the anomalie of using harmonics to tune/intonate. this is not a debate, it's call "reality".

you deflect a string to meet a fret and during that process it goes sharp to some degree. therefore, tune/intonate via delfection and not harmonics.

you would do the same thing when you go a step further and compromise that intonated tuning, so that fretted notes sound compatible up and down the fingerboard.

it's all done in the same way you play, by fretting. well, that is, unless the majority of yer playing is via plucked harmonics. doh. :roll:

I use to hit an open string and compare with the fretted at 12 and adjust. I then play the 12 fret harmonic and compare with 12 fretted. And hear ye hear ye it usually is as accurate as the open versus fretted note. Then I do the same on other harmonics and fretted and open positions up and down the neck and try to find the best compromise. Also use iPhone Peterson strobe but it usually is nor mandatory. And at the end of the day I still bend out of tune now and then ;-) It is all about compromise anyhow...

I'm a real dummy so bear with me. I replaced the saddles on my tele last weekend. Replaced compensated brass barrel for compensated steel saddles.

Since I knew my neck relief was right I went right for the saddles. First thing I noticed is that the strings were buzzing, so I raised the action on the saddles. That was fine around the 7th fret, but they were still "fretting out" above the 12th fret when bending. Raised the action a bit more till the noise stopped. Done with setting action for now.

New strings were put on, so STRETCH the strings, Tune up at the open strings and octaves at 7th fret using a TUNER. Tune the cowboy chords and stretch again using a TUNER.

Next I use the TUNER to set the intonation at the 12 fret harmonic. I just get it close as I can with my Korg Pitchblack on all the strings.

Then play a barre chord at the 12 fret. Low and behold , IT"S SHARP! As was said before I am now pressing down on the strings, making them sharp. At this point I flatten them to ear so it is still in tune at the nut and at the 12th fret. Pretty close really.

It's a tempered tuning don't forget.

My personal solution was to buy a set of Glendale compensated saddles for my two Teles. Problem solved ! http://www.glendaleguitars.com/saddles.htm YMMV