Probably a basic theory question (blues)

I don't really know anything about theory, the books have a tendency to confuse me, but I'm trying to learn.

Quick question: When soloing over standard blues progression, do you change the scale with the chord changes, or can you stay with the root scale? It seems like you could add a little more interest to solos if you did.

Thanks,

Britt

Yes its a good idea to change scales over the chords. Does give you a bit more of a jazzy sound, if you want to i can give you some of the scales Robben Ford uses.

That would be cool, I'm a huge Bloomfield fan, and I just found a tribute CD that the Ford Blues Band did for Mike. Great stuff! Thanks

Many years ago when I was younger I jumped from scale to scale trying to follow the chords... so if I was in G on the 1 and we went to the 4 I switched to a C pentatonic and so on... eventually I began to feel that this approach had too much of a "I don't know how to solo" sound.

Flash forward to today and I tend to use the scale of the key I am in but I use the patterns all up and down the neck in that key as well as a bunch of notes that sound good but don't officially belong in that scale. Look uo the CAGED theory that presents each scale at different positions relative to a basic set of chord inversions.

Wahtch these 8 videos on the 5 essential blues boxes and he covers what I an trying to say. He leans to SRV style in many of his videos and he may be tuned down th all his videos but there is a lot of good info there. I have been thinking about buying some of his other lessons that he sells. Some of these are referred to as the "Albert King box" and the BB King box" and so on.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEC5C2D9A5DEFF956&feature=plcp

http://steviesnacks.com/5-essential-blues-boxes

i4ZLMgFZLso

Yes, you can take both approaches. You can also work with Arpeggios and Chord Tones.

Mix it up!

ok here we go:

say we are in G so we got 3 chords I7: g7, IV7: c7 and V7: d7

Over the g7 you can play (in random order):

- the g minor pentatonic (g-Bb-c-d-f-g)
- the g blues scale: (g-Bb-c-Db-d-f-g) just add the b5 as you probably know.
- the g major pentatonic (g-a-b-d-e-g)
- g dominant scale (mixsolydian) (g-a-b-c-d-e-f-g)
- the "Robben Ford" minor pentatonic scale in g: (g-Bb-c-d-e-g)


Over the c7:

- the g minor pentatonic (g-Bb-c-d-f-g)
- the c major pentatonic (c-d-e-g-a-c)
- c dominant scale (mixsolydian) (c-d-e-f-g-a-Bb-c)
-the "Robben Ford" minor pentatonic scale in g: (g-Bb-c-d-e-g)

over the D7:

- the g minor pentatonic (g-Bb-c-d-f-g)
- the d major pentatonic (d-e-f#-a-h-d)
- D dominant scale (mixsolydian) (d-e-f#-g-a-h-c-d)
- D minor pentatonic (d-f-g-a-c-d) you can also add the b5

bonus: the albert king scale in g: (g-Bb-b-c-d-f-g) minor pent with the major 3.

bonus #2: The bb King Scale in g: (g-a-BB- C-DB-D-E-G) its like a mix of minor and major pentatonic.

Are you still at the beginner level? You forgot to say...

Start with the same key. Stay with that idea for months until your chops start to develop further.

Many years ago when I was younger I jumped from scale to scale trying to follow the chords... so if I was in G on the 1 and we went to the 4 I switched to a C pentatonic and so on... eventually I began to feel that this approach had too much of a "I don't know how to solo" sound.

Flash forward to today and I tend to use the scale of the key I am in but I use the patterns all up and down the neck in that key as well as a bunch of notes that sound good but don't officially belong in that scale. Look uo the CAGED theory that presents each scale at different positions relative to a basic set of chord inversions.

Wahtch these 8 videos on the 5 essential blues boxes and he covers what I an trying to say. He leans to SRV style in many of his videos and he may be tuned down th all his videos but there is a lot of good info there. I have been thinking about buying some of his other lessons that he sells. Some of these are referred to as the "Albert King box" and the BB King box" and so on.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEC5C2D9A5DEFF956&feature=plcp

http://steviesnacks.com/5-essential-blues-boxes

i4ZLMgFZLso

Thanks for this- found it really useful

If, like me, you're looking to learn blues theory, progressions and patterns from the basics up, I would definitely recommend the site steviesnacks.com that Mike Simpson references above.

Anthony Stauffer, who runs the site, puts a ridiculous level of planning, effort and detail into all of his lessons, like nothing else I have seen out there. There are some interesting premium series lessons, for which you have to pay, but even if you're just after some good free content he releases a new free lesson each Friday and there is even enough in some of the previews for the premium lessons to give you some good pointers.

To be honest, it is a little SRV heavy (though not as much as the name would suggest), which may or may not be to your taste. Personally it's not where I'd like to focus. But even so, I've found his lessons most helpful as his method of teaching is really excellent and there is obviously a lot in the way of general concepts to pick up.

It's probably worth checking out all the free content, absorbing as much of it you can and then, if you find his style of teaching helpful, invest in some of the individual series or bundles. That's what I did.

And no, I'm not affiliated with the site :) I just really appreciate the effort Anthony makes and felt he deserves a big up!

I couldn't think of the name of the book yesterday.... The CAGED theory is covered in the Fretboard Logic books. The " blues boxes " are basically the part of the CAGED theory that many blues players use.

I know the "theory people" will beat me about the head and face with a bat for saying this.... But, for some styles of music, too much theory can have a negative effect on how " musical " a player sounds. The " theory player " can begin to have a sound that primarily appeals to other music theorists.

I know the "theory people" will beat me about the head and face with a bat for saying this.... But, for some styles of music, too much theory can have a negative effect on how " musical " a player sounds. The " theory player " can begin to have a sound that primarily appeals to other music theorists.

One thing is clear; this certainly is a widely held 'cause and effect' belief. Learn theory > become unmusical.

I'd love to understand the origin of it.

Certainly it can often be the case that when someone begins to practice scales and learn the fundamentals their playing can sound a bit mechanical and unmusical but how this gets blamed on learning theory as the culprit is the logic I don't get. The culprit is more than likely how it was taught not that it was taught.

How many crappy, unmusical players are out there that don't and never will trouble themselves to learn a bit of theory. Are we to assume their already crappy playing will degrade even more if they undertake learning some music theory. That darn music theory!! Ruins everything!!:lol:

Conversely if we have someone who plays very musically and decides to learn a bit of theory is it predictable that her musicality will suffer as a result?

I really believe that what you hold to be a reasonable and true observation is a 'red herring' and what you think you're seeing/hearing is not what's really happening.

Besides, what you're describing really has more to do with understanding a particular musical style or genre more than it does with understanding music theory. Being able to play convincingly and appropriately in a particular style is probably the hardest thing to do in music beyond actually learning how to play the instrument. That's a real challenge for anyone and a person's level of theory knowledge has no real bearing on that.

I know the "theory people" will beat me about the head and face with a bat for saying this.... But, for some styles of music, too much theory can have a negative effect on how " musical " a player sounds. The " theory player " can begin to have a sound that primarily appeals to other music theorists.


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*This is the theory and technique section. Not the superstition, magic and alchemy section.

One thing is clear; this certainly is a widely held 'cause and effect' belief. Learn theory > become unmusical.

I'd love to understand the origin of it.


Yes strange, but the most sad people are those who do know theory but pretend not to.:roll:

See.... That didn't take long....

I am not against knowing theory... Really... I know some myself and even took a class at the Jr College

Yes... I have seen other players study theory to the point that they used to be a better player before they became consumed with theory. And no... I am not going to name them here.

The irony is... studying theory to learn to emulate players that knew little theory and expecting to sound like them.

The question was about Blues. If you want to play blues, listen to it all the time. Listen to different players and study their timing.

Ok.. Now All Y'all theorists can hit me some more...

"Being able to play convincingly and appropriately in a particular style is probably the hardest thing to do in music beyond actually learning how to play the instrument. That's a real challenge for anyone and a person's level of theory knowledge has no real bearing on that."

Amen.

The question was about Blues. If you want to play blues, listen to it all the time. Listen to different players and study their timing....

Absolutely. Whether you are ignorant of music fundamentals or posess the highest knowledge of them this is always the process that you have to go through to learn any style. So how does this negate the usefulness of knowing theory AND playing the blues. Who learns theory in order to be able to play the blues? I've never met anyone who's done so and if people are actually doing that then that's where the problem is.


Ok.. Now All Y'all theorists can hit me some more...

You know it's perfectly acceptable to just call them musicians. :mrgreen:

Yes... I have seen other players study theory to the point that they used to be a better player before they became consumed with theory. And no... I am not going to name them here.



Those are just bad musicians plain and simple regardless of what they do or don't know. I would argue they probably weren't that great to begin with(?).

*I've never met anyone that suffered ill at knowing (or just 'hearing') that it's cool to hit chord tones when you go to the IV and/or the V chord ... in a blues.
From Albert King to Johnny Winter ... explaining to someone with words (which is the only way I know how to when someone asks a question in a theory forum) that they 'hit a few chord tones' is barely any theory. It ain't rocket science as they say.

ok here we go:

say we are in G so we got 3 chords I7: g7, IV7: c7 and V7: d7

Over the g7 you can play (in random order):

- the g minor pentatonic (g-Bb-c-d-f-g)
- the g blues scale: (g-Bb-c-Db-d-f-g) just add the b5 as you probably know.
- the g major pentatonic (g-a-b-d-e-g)
- g dominant scale (mixsolydian) (g-a-b-c-d-e-f-g)
- the "Robben Ford" minor pentatonic scale in g: (g-Bb-c-d-e-g)


Over the c7:

- the g minor pentatonic (g-Bb-c-d-f-g)
- the c major pentatonic (c-d-e-g-a-c)
- c dominant scale (mixsolydian) (c-d-e-f-g-a-Bb-c)
-the "Robben Ford" minor pentatonic scale in g: (g-Bb-c-d-e-g)

over the D7:

- the g minor pentatonic (g-Bb-c-d-f-g)
- the d major pentatonic (d-e-f#-a-h-d)
- D dominant scale (mixsolydian) (d-e-f#-g-a-h-c-d)
- D minor pentatonic (d-f-g-a-c-d) you can also add the b5

bonus: the albert king scale in g: (g-Bb-b-c-d-f-g) minor pent with the major 3.

bonus #2: The bb King Scale in g: (g-a-BB- C-DB-D-E-G) its like a mix of minor and major pentatonic.

This is great stuff, thanks. See I look at that and I have no idea why you can play a D minor Pent over the D7 but not a C minor Pent over the C7! All Greek to me! But this helps quite a bit.

Are you still at the beginner level? You forgot to say...

Start with the same key. Stay with that idea for months until your chops start to develop further.

I have been playing for about three years. I consider myself to be a beginner still. I'm just starting to try to figure out how people put songs together. I have given up on tab, I am trying to train my ear to listen. But having a basic understanding of where someone is likely to go in a solo of song could help me map what I hear and want to play, if that makes sense. I have a pretty fair understanding of the "extended" blues minor pent scale pattern, just trying to figure out how this whole thing goes together. I'm a huge Bloomfield fan, and people refer to his liberal use of chromatic notes in his solos and I have no clue what they are talking about.

See.... That didn't take long....

I am not against knowing theory... Really... I know some myself and even took a class at the Jr College

Yes... I have seen other players study theory to the point that they used to be a better player before they became consumed with theory. And no... I am not going to name them here.

The irony is... studying theory to learn to emulate players that knew little theory and expecting to sound like them.

The question was about Blues. If you want to play blues, listen to it all the time. Listen to different players and study their timing.

Ok.. Now All Y'all theorists can hit me some more...

I think I know what you are saying, "I don't know about art but I know what I like." I'd rather be one of those people who just feels it and knows where to play it and make it sound like I want it to, but I'm not. Yet. And just like practicing scales, I'd like to practice what they go over and kind of understand why as well.

I just don't want to grow up being locked inside that box, limited to playing that pent scale pattern and being predictable.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys, I appreciate it. I know most of the guys I listen to played in fairly straight forward pent scales, Otis Rush, Muddy Waters, ALbert King, Bloomfield etc.

But then I listen to someone like McHouston Baker...

Great that you found it useful. These are just guidelines, if you think the c minor pent sound good over C7 use it.

Here's really simple chord tone move. In a dominant blues if you play the major third of the I and go one fret up on the beat as it changes to IV it sounds really cool. In C it would be E to F.

Here's really simple chord tone move. In a dominant blues if you play the major third on the I and go one fret up on the beat as it changes to IV it sounds really cool. In C it would be E to F.

I'll have to look into that once I know what a dominant blues and a Major third are!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzxAhS1CI3I

I know the "theory people" will beat me about the head and face with a bat for saying this.... But, for some styles of music, too much theory can have a negative effect on how " musical " a player sounds. The " theory player " can begin to have a sound that primarily appeals to other music theorists.

I call bull****...

I hear a lot of unmusical players who can't play very well, and obviously don't know any theory either. (you know the ones, they play in the same "box" for every solo...)

Here's really simple chord tone move. In a dominant blues if you play the major third of the I and go one fret up on the beat as it changes to IV it sounds really cool. In C it would be E to F.

Or go down one fret to Eb - the b7 of F. Very hip, very common.

"I'll have to look into that once I know what a dominant blues and a Major third are!"

All blues that's not minor is dominant. I'm not much of theorist but what little I have managed to learn has been helpful to me. Learn the major scale, everything derives from it. The major 3d is the third degree - Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do. All chords have a Root, Do a 3rd, Mi and a 5th, So. Blues needs 4 part harmony and here it gets a little strange, in a I IV V each chord is dominant and has a 7th Ti. A domnant 7th is flatted.

Sticking with the C scale, C D E F G A B C the B or 7th becomes Bb. I would suggest before you start lessons that are solely about Blues or or any kind of music you learn the major scale and how to harmonize it. You'll get a lot more from what you turn to afterwards.

The "books" call a blues in which the I, IV and V chords all have the b7 a dominant blues, as opposed to just playing the triads for I and IV.

The "books" call a blues in which the I, IV and V chords all have the b7 a dominant blues, as opposed to just playing the triads for I and IV.

I always found that strange. Playing a 7th on the one & four sounds funny and I rarely hear that in actual songs.

But if you look at most of your basic piano/guitar/vocal song books, they seem to make most of the guitar chords 7th's for some reason.

I always found that strange. Playing a 7th on the one & four sounds funny and I rarely hear that in actual songs.

But if you look at most of your basic piano/guitar/vocal song books, they seem to make most of the guitar chords 7th's for some reason.

Because it's so common to have the 7th somewhere in the band, even if the guitar isn't necessarily playing it. The overall tonality is dominant.
Here's a good example: Freddie may not ever play an actual '7th' chord voicing but he certainly implies dom7 with the licks behind/between the vox as well as his vocal melody and the keys players are constantly hitting and emphasizing the '7th'.
*I rarely hear (dominant) Blues as being only triads on the I and IV.

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Someone is playing the 7th. Often the bass player covers it. Most blues bass figures contain the dominant 7th.

Oops! Ken got here before me. He's more credible anyway. :smile:

I was referring specifically to guitarists hitting the 7th chord voicing. I agree that someone is often playing it, especially with piano and horns in the band.

So I guess you answered my eternal question of why music books always make the guitar chords 7th's.

I've alway had the philosophy that if other players are hitting all those other notes, it's best for the guitar to keep it simple.

I use 7ths all the time, 3 notes without the 5th.

I use 7ths all the time, 3 notes without the 5th.

Me too, well, sometimes, I guess. Other times 9th chords, or simple triads. It depends on the song and we need to mix it up so as to not get bored.

But I haven't played blues much for a few years anyways....

Theory discussions remind me of computer programing. I read them anyway. Learn songs OP, feeling first. Learn theory as your temperament allows. The boxes could be all you ever need.

I'm surrounded by assassins.

I don't know why some of y'all even read this forum.

Those that ridicule the striving towards excellence are usually very successful at achieving mediocrity.

Ridicule?! Apologies if I came off that way because I truly admire you theory savvy. But sometimes you guys walk the line between inspiration and intimidation (*to me*). The OP asked a simple question.

Stop arguing and answer my question in the thread next down! :roll:

Those that ridicule the striving towards excellence are usually very successful at achieving mediocrity.

Nice! :cool:

I'm surrounded by assassins.

Not me, Brute'

Ridicule?! Apologies if I came off that way because I truly admire you theory savvy. But sometimes you guys walk the line between inspiration and intimidation (*to me*). The OP asked a simple question.

Yeah, but in the Theory section and with the word, "theory" in the title. And, other questions were raised along the way.

The "books" call a blues in which the I, IV and V chords all have the b7 a dominant blues, as opposed to just playing the triads for I and IV.

Because it's so common to have the 7th somewhere in the band, even if the guitar isn't necessarily playing it. The overall tonality is dominant.



*I rarely hear (dominant) Blues as being only triads on the I and IV.

Aha. Thank you. Increased understanding.

A lot to digest here. Thanks for everyone's input. I think it might be time to take some lessons. I play every day, but I think I'd do better if I was able to understand at least how chords are made instead of just how they are shaped.

Great thing about this art, you can learn something new every day, no matter how good you are! I always look forward to that opportunity. Last night it just happened to be Let it Ride by BOC. My iPod picked it, not me, but a fun song to play!

Yeah, but in the Theory section and with the word, "theory" in the title. And, other questions were raised along the way.

Actually... it is only ONE of the FOUR words in the title... Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique

...and may be the most unfriendly section on the whole TDPRI forum.

I don't agree at all. We mostly help one another here. Maybe you are mistaking unfriendliness for striving for accuracy and excellence and correcting erroneous information.
BTW, I meant that the OP had "theory" in the title.

...and may be the most unfriendly section on the whole TDPRI forum.

No, Tele-Technical gets that honor :twisted:.

"and", not "or".

Room for all!

Well back to the original question ... Erik8 offers a great guidline. Working within that text here is a great blues move. Start on playing the C maj pentatonic on the I and when it switches to the IV hit the C minor pentatonic hard. Also a simpler way to understand Mjark's suggestion of moving a half step up from the 3rd ... would be to approach the root of the IV chord from a half step down (or to approach it down from a half step up both of these are traditional jazz moves.) Again the suggestion of using the b7 in blues is a great idea. So whatever chord you are playing accentuated the note a whole step down from the root. As for learning theory ... it can only help ... many of the blues players mentioned have studied theory. I would be very surprised if none of them couldn't understand the terms and basic theory that I used.

This is a great question to ask! Ill try to keep my answer simple. You can do either one you like, it just depends on what you're going for. Like someone said, if you want a more complex, jazzyish feel you might try changing or thinking in different scales for different chords (but learn the modes. Those will let you play any scale at any place on the fretboard, even 'inside' other scales), but if you want a tight, bluesey or rock sound, staying in one position is great. For example, the comfortably numb solo is played primarily in just a standard b blues scale, without changing.