"Beebop" Scales

Okay. So we see these "beebop" scales, which add an extra note so you have both major and minor sevenths. This, as I understand it, helps keep chord tones on the beat when you add the M7 to a scale which has a b7, (or at least evenly spaced), and it is a nice chromatic touch.

True or false? Or, what's up with all that?

Yes to all that but there's probably five dif bebop scales that guys use.

1 -bebop dominant scale is derived from the Mixolydian mode and has a chromatic passing tone between the b7th and the root. Use for dominant and extended dom chords (9th, 13th the occasional lightly altered 7th chord).

2 -bebop major scale is derived from the Ionian mode and has a chromatic passing tone between the 5th and 6th tones. Major 6th and maj.7th chords.

3 -bebop melodic minor scale is derived from the ascending form of the melodic minor scale and has a chromatic passing tone between the 5th and 6th. Minor 6th chords (or dom.9th a fourth up; Gm6 = C9).

4 -bebop harmonic minor scale is derived from the harmonic minor scale and has a chromatic passing tone (an additional b7) between the 6th and the nat 7th. Treated respectfully it can be used over all three chords of a minor ii V i (*watch b3 and the natural 7 over the ii chord - which type of ii you use and how you approach it over a minor ii V is worthy of it's own treatise).

5 -bebop Dorian scale is derived from the Dorian mode and has a chromatic passing tone between the minor 3rd and the 4th. This is really just a 'mode' of the bebop mixo scale. It does have a cool M3/m3 sound that can be useful.

*I don't consciously use 'bebop' scales when I play. That's not a critique at all, just a personal choice - I play jazz very chromatically and more often than not probably play elements of these scales. I just don't think that way. I may at some point(?). I wasn't a melodic minor guy for a long time and now I'm a disciple. So many ways to skin a jazz cat.

Re: ^^^^^

My name is Tonemonkey and I'm a moderately gifted performer ..... yet clearly a musical Idiot.

The Bebop scales as well as the modes of Melodic Minor scale are much more revealing (and for me more interesting) when you start harmonizing them.

For example adding the b6 to a maj7th chord .
Cmaj7b6: X36453 Use this voicing for the first two changes of 'Dindi' - Cmaj7b6 to Bbmaj7b6. Works great with the melody and sounds super hip in a creepy sort of way.
*(You 'can' think of this as G13b9/C - or play it with a low G: 3X6453). Sounds great as the pk up chord to 'Misty' ... "look at me" Cmaj7. See it that way can also open up some nice new melodic ideas as well.

**I mentioned in my first post here to watch how you treat the nat.7 of the bebop harm min scale over the ii chord in a minor ii V i (the scale is based off the i). Again for an interesting chordal treatment try adding the natural 7th.
Ex: Em7b5 - X7888X to A13b9 - X 10 11 11 11 X to Dmin/maj7 - X 8 11 10 10 x

I wasn't a melodic minor guy for a long time and now I'm a disciple. So many ways to skin a jazz cat.
love to read more about that, if you would.

This is what turned my head around ... http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Secrets-Melodic-Minor-Revealed/dp/0769215564
The title is kinda stupid. It's not a 'secret' or a secret, easy way to playing better. It's just VERY concise. He focuses on one thing and one thing only - how to use melodic minor over dom7th chords in jazz (and fusion).

I started simple: mm 1/2 step up over dom chords in a ii V (or ii V I).
Ex: ii V I in C ... Dm7 - G7 - C
D minor arp/line - Ab mm - C major arp/line. *If it's a really burning tempo you can just play Ab mm lines as long as you resolve nicely to C or wherever it's going.

Over a static dominant chord. Ex: D9 (funk) think A mm and to a lesser extent C mm.

something a great local (jazz) guitarist said to me once as advice when i asked him to teach me: "the difference between you and me is: where you see scales (or notes on the fingerboard), i see chords."
then i heard, long ago, that guys like Metheny and friends/students would practice soloing on standards (of course) using chord tones only.

sorry to be off-topic!

This is what turned my head around ... http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Secrets-Melodic-Minor-Revealed/dp/0769215564

I started simple: mm 1/2 step up over dom chords in a ii V (or ii V I).
Ex: ii V I in C ... Dm7 - G7 - C
D minor arp/line - Ab mm - C major arp/line. *If it's a really burning tempo you can just play Ab mm lines as long as you resolve nicely to C or wherever it's going.

Over a static dominant chord. Ex: D9 (funk) think A mm and to a lesser extent C mm.
awesome, thanks for sharing!

something a great local (jazz) guitarist said to me once as advice when i asked him to teach me: "the difference between you and me is: where you see scales (or notes on the fingerboard), i see chords."
then i heard, long ago, that guys like Metheny and friends/students would practice soloing on standards (of course) using chord tones only.

sorry to be off-topic!

Lest I forget my standard caveat and disclaimer ...
I will always and unfailing recommend that before anyone messes with mel.min/modes/bebop scales/etc. that you know what and where the chord tones are - jazz, rock, klezmer, whatever.

The Bebop scales as well as the modes of Melodic Minor scale are much more revealing (and for me more interesting) when you start harmonizing them.

For example adding the b6 to a maj7th chord .
Cmaj7b6: X36453 Use this voicing for the first two changes of 'Dindi' - Cmaj7b6 to Bbmaj7b6. Works great with the melody and sounds super hip in a creepy sort of way.
*(You 'can' think of this as G13b9/C - or play it with a low G: 3X6453). Sounds great as the pk up chord to 'Misty' ... "look at me" Cmaj7. See it that way can also open up some nice new melodic ideas as well.

**I mentioned in my first post here to watch how you treat the nat.7 of the bebop harm min scale over the ii chord in a minor ii V i (the scale is based off the i). Again for an interesting chordal treatment try adding the natural 7th.
Ex: Em7b5 - X7888X to A13b9 - X 10 11 11 11 X to Dmin/maj7 - X 8 11 10 10 x

jesus christ...this all looks like some crazy abstract mathematical equations too me with chemistry thrown in...i might have a better chance at rocket science than understand this lol :grin:

A great resource of info on adding half steps to scales is Barry Harris, he has a website with teaching links. He is very thorough in his method and brings up many situations based on what scale tone you start your line on and where you start the line rhythmically ( triplets, on the beat, on the upbeat, etc.). Barry's DVD series of his seminars are valuable master classes in bebop playing approaches. I think the earliest user/originator of the term "bebop scales" is David Baker, he also has a three volume series of "How to Play Bebop" texts which is based on his transcription research of hundreds of solos by Clifford Brown, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, and Charlie Parker. I find these two educators to be definitive sources for learning these scale types.

jesus christ...this all looks like some crazy abstract mathematical equations too me with chemistry thrown in...i might have a better chance at rocket science than understand this lol :grin:

Well, at least you own a tele.

A great resource of info on adding half steps to scales is Barry Harris, he has a website with teaching links. He is very thorough in his method and brings up many situations based on what scale tone you start your line on and where you start the line rhythmically ( triplets, on the beat, on the upbeat, etc.). Barry's DVD series of his seminars are valuable master classes in bebop playing approaches. I think the earliest user/originator of the term "bebop scales" is David Baker, he also has a three volume series of "How to Play Bebop" texts which is based on his transcription research of hundreds of solos by Clifford Brown, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, and Charlie Parker. I find these two educators to be definitive sources for learning these scale types.

+1 for both Harris and Baker.

Among others David Baker played trombone on the seminal George Russell record 'Ezz-thetics' and Barry Harris played on the Lee Morgan tour de force, 'the Sidewinder' (among others). These two guys know their $h1t whether it be playing or teaching. I admire them both greatly because they refuse to adhere to the tradition that improvisation and jazz is somehow mystical and unknowable with the conscious mind. Dave Liebman is another one who's not afraid of education.

And to quote jbmando's signature ... "Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann (1959-2012)

Lest I forget my standard caveat and disclaimer ...
I will always and unfailing recommend that before anyone messes with mel.min/modes/bebop scales/etc. that you know what and where the chord tones are - jazz, rock, klezmer, whatever.
actually, i believe you did include the benefits of harmonization right from the top. :razz:

edit: ok, second post, at the top. :oops:

Sort of.
I mean you need to know what and where the tones of each chord you're playing over are.
Dm7 = D F A C
G7 = G B D F
Cmaj7 = C E G B

This before you worry about anything else!
*When you know your chord tones then the scales make WAY more sense and are much easier to apply musically.

I`m no expert but I believe Charlie Parker did not think in terms of scales? That did not start until George Russell`s book "lydian chromatic concept of tonal organization" was published in 1953. Starting the modal jazz style. Parker was thinking of chord tones and passing tones etc.

Parker was way into melodic and harmonic minor - he runs them all the time in his solos. Yes of course he also equally thought in chord tones.

Check out the way he plays over the bridge changes in 'Yardbird Suite'. Melodic minor straight up starting at the 5th ... with chrom. passing tone. I can cite dozens of other examples ... bar 5 of the bridge of 'scrapple/apple' - G mixo, D to D ... bars 1 and 2 of the melody of 'Donna Lee' - Ab maj scale desc from the root with a b5 passing tone ... etc, etc, etc.

It's his as well as Dizzy's (not too mention Charlie Christian) use of the passing tones usually between either 6 and 7 or b7 and 1 that was 'codified' later (by David Baker, coincidentally the trombone player in George Russell's band). Baker coined the term 'bebop' scales (see mine and gtroates earlier posts). Russell's book is not a book of scales per se but a book/technique about how to use and think about a particular scale - the lydian mode.

*Parker practiced scales (sometimes 13 hours a day according to his contemporaries) and he played them in his solos. He was always very musical about it but so should any musician be.

I`m no expert but I believe Charlie Parker did not think in terms of scales? That did not start until George Russell`s book "lydian chromatic concept of tonal organization" was published in 1953. Starting the modal jazz style. Parker was thinking of chord tones and passing tones etc.

Yep - the bebop guys were for the most part, chord oriented although Russell always maintains that his theory was contrived from the music of Parker - and others. I dont know if Russell really started the "modal style" as we know it - I always imagine Miles modal stuff as a reaction against it actually.
Russels' theory puts the chord first too - except that he is definitely pushing for musicians to appreciate the value of the 'other consonants in the chord - the 9th the 13th etc - probably because he could hear how adept Bird was at targeting those tones in his own playing. Jamey Aebersold -who studied with George - simplified the chord /scale idea to a greater degree - firstly as I understand it, to help Classical musicians(who knew all their scales but didnt know much about how to improvise on harmony) and this resulted in a real increase of noticeably scalar playing in 'schooled' players. But I've never come across a teacher or mentor who was any good, who didnt make the chord - or the progression, the primary concern in playing changes.

[how] to play "outside"; outside what? (rhetorical)

Yes to all that but there's probably five dif bebop scales that guys use.

1 -bebop dominant scale is derived from the Mixolydian mode and has a chromatic passing tone between the b7th and the root. Use for dominant and extended dom chords (9th, 13th the occasional lightly altered 7th chord).

2 -bebop major scale is derived from the Ionian mode and has a chromatic passing tone between the 5th and 6th tones. Major 6th and maj.7th chords.

3 -bebop melodic minor scale is derived from the ascending form of the melodic minor scale and has a chromatic passing tone between the 5th and 6th. Minor 6th chords (or dom.9th a fourth up; Gm6 = C9).

4 -bebop harmonic minor scale is derived from the harmonic minor scale and has a chromatic passing tone (an additional b7) between the 6th and the nat 7th. Treated respectfully it can be used over all three chords of a minor ii V i (*watch b3 and the natural 7 over the ii chord - which type of ii you use and how you approach it over a minor ii V is worthy of it's own treatise).

5 -bebop Dorian scale is derived from the Dorian mode and has a chromatic passing tone between the minor 3rd and the 4th. This is really just a 'mode' of the bebop mixo scale. It does have a cool M3/m3 sound that can be useful.

*I don't consciously use 'bebop' scales when I play. That's not a critique at all, just a personal choice - I play jazz very chromatically and more often than not probably play elements of these scales. I just don't think that way. I may at some point(?). I wasn't a melodic minor guy for a long time and now I'm a disciple. So many ways to skin a jazz cat.

Great explanation.
I understand the theory of it all. Putting it to use and having it appear in my playing is the hard part.

Sent from my iPhone using TDPRI

It's a good time to reiterate that most folks who even play 'a little' jazz probably do this w/o even realizing it. Adding the above mentioned chromatic passing tones - however you want to codify them - IS the sound of jazz from Charlie Christian thru mid 60's Coltrane (or anybody that still plays traditional bebop). It's the 'standard practice'. It's what our ears hear. A lot of modern country lead players essentially employ these same 'rules' or tendencies, if you wanna call it that. Whether a player calls it that or even knows it is immaterial - it's part of the language at this point.

It's a good time to reiterate that most folks who even play 'a little' jazz probably do this w/o even realizing it.+1
Adding the above mentioned chromatic passing tones - however you want to codify them - IS the sound of jazz from Charlie Christian thru mid 60's Coltrane (or anybody that still plays traditional bebop).x.50's to mid '60's? x.milestones, kind of blue, giant steps... is bebop?

beautiful posts, love it, dig it. :cool:

Interesting, got some more bebop questions. Any ideas of how to use the b5 interval in bebop? I use it as a passing tone but it don't really sound that outside that way.

Any ideas of how to use the b5 interval in bebop? I use it as a passing tone but it don't really sound that outside that way.
context/anti-context...context is everything? ..., perhaps try the b5 as something other... or maybe a jumping off point...in a whole tone activity, for example. or, try it on different beats/accents. anything that'll help you hear it as a dissonance.

I wanted to chime in on some of this bebop stuff. I tried to deal with those David Baker books years ago and was just FRUSTRATED! I couldn't get this into my playing, it seemed way too planned out and formulaic. I'm not quite as critical now on it but here's my take.

The bebop 'scale' is more of a rhythmic device. The idea is that you're getting chord tones on beats, NOT putting in half steps. B natural is not a 'bebop note' in C7, it's a passing tone to get the Bb and other chord tones on the beat. I think the best resource out there on this now is "The Jazz Line" by Jerry Bergonzi. He goes through a lot of ways to put in chromatic notes in order to get chord tones on beats. It made WAY MORE SENSE than David Baker's stuff.

Bergonzi's other idea that I think really makes this work is to practice the exercises like crazy because it trains your ear to naturally hear when you need the passing tones. It's weird, but after a lot of practice like that you start to almost naturally feel where you need them.

So try using it as more of a rhythmic device than a harmonic set of notes.

Interesting, got some more bebop questions. Any ideas of how to use the b5 interval in bebop? I use it as a passing tone but it don't really sound that outside that way.

Context is everything. The b5 is not usually an 'outside' note.
One common place you see it is on dominant II chords-like in Take the A Train (the D7). It's also very common on tonic Major 7th chords and IVmaj7 chords.

Notes won't sound out when they're being used as passing tones. The passing tone is used to bridge two other notes.

Try playing it more blatantly to get a more outside sound. In other words don't prepare and resolve it like you would if you're using it as a passing tone.

Thanks guys

@Ken: I have not read George Russell`s books but Terje Rypdal who did take lessons with him said his (Russell) method was about learning what scales would work over the chords. But again I'm no expert on this.

+1
x.50's to mid '60's? x.milestones, kind of blue, giant steps... is bebop?

beautiful posts, love it, dig it. :cool:

Though 'milestones' and 'kind of blue' have a sub-classification of modal, the solos are still squarely in the bop camp - other than Miles' solo on the tune 'So What'. *There's only two 'modal' songs on Kind Of Blue - so what and flamenco sketches. Giant Steps is still a bop record - maybe harkening the end of it but still there.
Miles and Co. went back to bebop after KOB though it's generally called post-bop. Albums like ESP, Nefertiti are loaded with tunes that have a ton of changes and burning tempos. They may not sound like Parker too much but they owe a lot to Bird and his legacy. The more forward thinking jazzers didn't really back a way from bebop until maybe 1967 or so.

*Of course there was always Monk and Ornette. Two guys that followed no ones path. Albert Ayler, Cecil Taylor also.

*All jazz players still to this day are very 'bebop' influenced when they solo. There are other more modern elements of course but if you seriously play jazz today you need to at least go through and assimilate the bop thing. It's like if you're gonna be a mathematician, physicist or astronomer you can't just stop at geometry.

Big +1 to Sam's last couple of posts. The Jerry Bergonzi books are all great!

As to George Russell's thing, 1) it's pretty complicated and deep. 2) it's based on this concept: he posits that tonal gravity emanates from the first seven tones of the Lydian mode. Hence the name of his method - Lydian Chromatic Concept.
Of course he extrapolates from that how to use his lydian concept over all manner of chords/keys/etc.

Thanks guys

@Ken: I have not read George Russell`s books but Terje Rypdal who did take lessons with him said his (Russell) method was about learning what scales would work over the chords. But again I'm no expert on this.
when we would look at that book in the window of a back alley music store... it was viewed,e.g., as method to playing outside.
(and subsequently a reorganization.)

Thanks guys

@Ken: I have not read George Russell`s books but Terje Rypdal who did take lessons with him said his (Russell) method was about learning what scales would work over the chords. But again I'm no expert on this.
love the first cut on Descendre.

when we would look at that book in the window of a back alley music store... it was viewed,e.g., as method to playing outside.
(and subsequently a reorganization.)

It's not a treatise on specifically playing 'outside' over changes.
Just a different way of tonal organization.
George Russell's music is not that out.

It's not a treatise on specifically playing 'outside' over changes.
Just a different way of tonal organization.
George Russell's music is not that out.

lol...busted! :lol:

It's not a treatise on specifically playing 'outside' over changes.
Just a different way of tonal organization.
George Russell's music is not that out.

tonal organization...has to be cosmic. i'm all in. :-)

I'm not gettin ya Tedro - ? It's too early :mrgreen:.

I downloaded The Barry Harris Approach to Improvised Lines & Harmony: An Introduction, by Fiona Bicket off the Barry Harris website ($15), and have been playing around with it. I like having a system or method to learn from. This is good for non-jazz players because this intro is key of C, with straight up unaltered G dominant scale.

But all of the examples, and others I have stumbled upon in my limited internet searching, have been descending lines for the scalar stuff. Coincidence? Clarity? Or some other consideration about descending as opposed to ascending lines?

Second Wondering Question or observation. We non-jazzers, meaning I, don't use as much major 7th stuff. The dominant lines are useful, but for major sounds we use major pentatonic more. To make it come out even as far as chord tones are concerned, we need a chromatic note or something. The 4th scale degree in the major hexatonic scale without the 7th scale degree seems to fill that role pretty nicely, as opposed to putting in a chromatic note in one of the whole steps. At least to my ear this afternoon. Is that one of the touted virtues of the scale? I see it in fiddle tunes.

I downloaded The Barry Harris Approach to Improvised Lines & Harmony: An Introduction, by Fiona Bicket off the Barry Harris website ($15), and have been playing around with it. I like having a system or method to learn from. This is good for non-jazz players because this intro is key of C, with straight up unaltered G dominant scale.

But all of the examples, and others I have stumbled upon in my limited internet searching, have been descending lines for the scalar stuff. Coincidence? Clarity? Or some other consideration about descending as opposed to ascending lines?

Second Wondering Question or observation. We non-jazzers, meaning I, don't use as much major 7th stuff. The dominant lines are useful, but for major sounds we use major pentatonic more. To make it come out even as far as chord tones are concerned, we need a chromatic note or something. The 4th scale degree in the major hexatonic scale without the 7th scale degree seems to fill that role pretty nicely, as opposed to putting in a chromatic note in one of the whole steps. At least to my ear this afternoon. Is that one of the touted virtues of the scale? I see it in fiddle tunes.

The true master is one who asks a great question.
Second question first.
Yes the 4th will facilitate that as well as as the minor third. The m3 will also make it more chromatic - if that's what you want sometimes.
C D Eb E G A - this is sometimes called the C major blues scale.

Question one - Yes. Descending is where we tend to 'commonly hear' the chromatic jazz lines that are now classified as coming from/using the 'bebop' scale. (Again, this is a modern term)
Ex: C B Bb C A G F E C (octave below first C).
*That line descends - except go back up to the fourth note C in the line.

Note that the bebop scale sounds like (is) the John Phillips Sousa intro to the 'Thunderer March' ... C - D E - F G A Bb B C.
XvCJzP7Oeoc

Thanks. I do like the b3 with pentatonic scale. The b3 2 1 is a sound I use a lot.

Jerry Bergonzi teaches that stuff very well. He has a bunch of books out there; many of you all probably have them. If not, buy them. Not much $$; less than yet another fuzzbox etc. Fantastic tenor sax player, who also plays about every instrument ever thought of. He can kick ass on the Fender bass! Drums too, and look out if he's on piano! Sounds like McCoy. I studied with Jerry for a year or so in the early 80's. A jazz "beer drinker & hell raiser".

http://www.jerrybergonzi.com/books.htm

Descending is where we tend to 'commonly hear' the chromatic jazz lines that are now classified as coming from/using the 'bebop' scale.

Why?

You still have the basic problem of getting off the evenly spaced chord tones when you get above 5. Or is it that you don't get off until 5 and so you get a nice long string of notes before you get off? Descending you get off right away if you start on 1. Is that the deal?

Or is it that if you just have one note for the basic bebop scale, (either 1 M7 b7 in the dominant scale or 6 b6 5 in major scale), it sounds fine but if you have two or three notes added it kind sound of calliope like, starting out with ascending 1 b2 2? It doesn't sound like that descending. Is that it?

I'm just trying to get the textbook approach on these next questions. I like Sam Smiley's statement that it is about the rhythm rather than the notes, but it is nice to know the note choice doctrine as handed down by the masters.

Question the next: You either need no extra notes, or one extra note, or two extra notes to make things come out right, depending on where you start and how far you go. (Would JoeBob call that the ambitus?) And so if you want to add extra notes beyond those necessary, you have to add two at a time. After the M7 for dominant and b76 for major, the next preferred note is 2 b2 1, then 3 b3 2. Those are the only possible notes if descending from 4, but if descending from 5, the preference is still to use those instead of b5. Right?

Ken said to treat dorian as a mode of dominant, but what is the preferred order of other notes if you need them? Seems like 1 M7 b7 from the root of the dorian would be right. Wrong?

The best I can do is re-quote myself. The lick in bold below.
This is the quintessential/cliche desc bop lick on a I7 or even I major chord.

Descending is where we tend to 'commonly hear' the chromatic jazz lines that are now classified as coming from/using the 'bebop' scale. (Again, this is a modern term)
Ex: C B Bb C A G F E C (octave below first C).
*That line descends - except go back up to the fourth note C in the line.


*I 'learned' there was be-bop scale long after I learned the sound of it.
As far as it being more of a rhythmic thing for landing chord tones on strong beats - sure, it probably works out that way and I've heard guys talk about that for years. This is one of those things where my ability to explain it fails. I've listened to jazz music literally all my life (father played trpt, bass and piano professionally and was an arranger). The phrasing thing and adding chromatic tones is natural for me.

*as for adding chrom tones to dorian ... I like it between the b3 and the 4, adding a maj 3rd.

Okay. Formulating these questions is a way of posing them to myself also. I'm comparing the Barry Harris system to my own ad hoc approach and it has really helped focus things. I've been playing Right or Wrong trying to put a ii7 before each dominant chord and adding the Barry Harris chromatics. It'll drive you to drink. (Bless him.)

I've been playing Right or Wrong trying to put a ii7 before each dominant chord and adding the Barry Harris chromatics. It'll drive you to drink. (Bless him.)

Seriously, that's true.
Every jazzer that I know has kinda their own way of doing it. A favored way. Their thing.

I dig the dorian or minor conversion thing in general - which is like putting a ii before every V (Bb7 = Fm7) and I usually think just the minor chord (and it varies between dorian, mel.min., harm.min. or phrygian depending on the rest of the rhythm section and what I'm hearing that night/moment).
Some guys like thinking lydian (george russell), some the m6/dim7 (barry harris), others chord/scale relationship (berklee), modal, etc. Once you get used to 'your' particular method - by applying it - it's really no harder than thinking chord to chord. Whatever works for you. 50 jazzers will do it 50 different ways.

*And of course while you're playing/performing you don't really think 'theoretically' - that's for your practice time.

Most tend to be aware of many or even all the 'other' ways to think - and will occasionally use them in various circumstances. Also you can (and most do) migrate your approach to improv. I moved from chord/scale thinking to more key center thinking. Though I do definitely 'hear' the changes and add chrom (chord and alt tones per specific chord) tones accordingly.
Nobody that I know uses it all at all times.

... I moved from chord/scale thinking to more key center thinking....



Ken, would you further elaborate your approach to 'key center' thinking, please?

Ken, would you further elaborate your approach to 'key center' thinking, please?

I will. But I need to think about it for a few hours (or a day maybe).
It's still a work in progress. Playing jazz and/or any type of improvised music is a continuum. I edited my last post (#42) literally 5 or 6 times because I'm trying to be clear. Clear within a subject that has MANY different answers and approaches - that's the beauty of it.

*Briefly I can tell you why I'm attracted to trying to be more key center oriented.
Take a tune like 'There is No Greater Love' or 'There Will Never Be Another You'. Tunes with some chords. Why is it that Jack McDuff and Gene Ammons can basically play 'blues' over it and it works just as well (or maybe even better - ?) as when Sonny Rollins runs every change?

Thanks.

I'm answering jbdrumbo in a new thread - Tonal Center thinking.

I want to recommend this book.
'Elements of The Jazz Language for the Developing Improvisor' by Jerry Coker
http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Jazz-Language-Developing-Improvisor/dp/157623875X

It has examples and VERY concise explanations covering everything we've been talking about in this thread (notation only).