What Constitues Preformance?

The threads name pretty much says it all but I'm interested in thoughts on what constitutes performance vs real worship. We all know people and churches who see our pedal boards and think we are flashy but see a 30 voice choir in robes and that's not performance. A delay pedal is a rock show but not 4 part harmony.

Where is the dividing line?

I would note there is nothing immoral or wrong about just enjoying a good performance, including in church, for the glory of God. In a sense, everytime we play, we perform. If we are doing it right, we are bringing Glory to God, not ourselves, but being fallen man, it is impossible to do this perfectly.

Where is the dividing line?

Doing a duckwalk across the Chancel?

I've made the mistake of judging others motives. Our desire should always be only for ourselves - to bring our best. I try to remember that I'm playing for an audience of one. It's a heart issue. We can really only judge our own hearts.

Talk openly with the persons in doubt of your motives. Many folks don't see things the way we do, only because they have no understanding of what we are doing, other than making music. They don't see tools, they don't see the gift we've been given to use those tools. They see chrome and flash, and a stack of Marshall's, when it's really a Tele and a Champ. They can't begin to understand a dotted eighth note delay...

The dividing line is between letting talk hurt your gift to God and conversing with the misinformed before talk escalates.

I hate the "it's not performance, it's worship" argument with a passion. When you play music, you perform. Simple as that. I can't stand still when I play. I've had more people say they like how our band interacts vs. just standing there staring at our sheets. When we as musicians are into what we are doing, that usually spreads to the congregation.

I'd say if you lower yourself down via wires in the middle of the congregation and float to the stage, with Ace Freely sparks shooting out of your headstock, you may be overdoing the performance thing in a worship setting.

I'd say if you lower yourself down via wires in the middle of the congregation and float to the stage, with Ace Freely sparks shooting out of your headstock, you may be overdoing the performance thing in a worship setting.

I actually had to hold back tea spewing out my nose at the imagery there :lol:

Doing a duckwalk across the Chancel?

I laughed pretty hard, thanks :)

:lol: Spit take.

Doing a duckwalk across the Chancel?

I'd say prefromance is what happens before formance. Hope that helps. ;)

I hate the "it's not performance, it's worship" argument with a passion. When you play music, you perform. Simple as that.

I agree.

If you are so hung up about people thinking that you're "just" performing, then maybe your band needs to be in the music room and have worshiping people on stage.....with your music piped in.

Our leader is very good at pointing out what we need to do to perform. It's our job to be enhancing what the congregation experiences. One of the recent phrases is "if you're not playing, you're singing". Going along with the fact that it's alright to not be playing every second of every song....or maybe not even playing most of a song....if you're on stage, people look at you. If you're singing (even with no sound, if you don't sing well), it enhances the congregation's experience. In similar way, he's pointed out that a bad fall back is for us to close our eyes while playing. This isolates you from the congregation. You might think that since you're worshiping that it's ok, but it's not supposed to be about you.

We watch our "performance" from our first service every week. The whole idea is to learn from what we see and hear. Yah....if I'm just holding on because the solo is right at the edge of my ability and I'm not able to smile and look like my eyes are glued to my fingerboard, ok. Maybe next time, I tone down the solo to something easier.

I hate the "it's not performance, it's worship" argument with a passion. When you play music, you perform. Simple as that.


I agree.

If you are so hung up about people thinking that you're "just" performing, then maybe your band needs to be in the music room and have worshiping people on stage.....with your music piped in.

Our leader is very good at pointing out what we need to do to perform. It's our job to be enhancing what the congregation experiences. One of the recent phrases is "if you're not playing, you're singing". Going along with the fact that it's alright to not be playing every second of every song....or maybe not even playing most of a song....if you're on stage, people look at you. If you're singing (even with no sound, if you don't sing well), it enhances the congregation's experience. In similar way, he's pointed out that a bad fall back is for us to close our eyes while playing. This isolates you from the congregation. You might think that since you're worshiping that it's ok, but it's not supposed to be about you.

We watch our "performance" from our first service every week. The whole idea is to learn from what we see and hear. Yah....if I'm just holding on because the solo is right at the edge of my ability and I'm not able to smile and look like my eyes are glued to my fingerboard, ok. Maybe next time, I tone down the solo to something easier.

What is really at issue here is the idea of leading the congregation closer to God, or putting on a concert. In that context, what we do is not a performance in the usual sense of the word. It should never be about "look at this cool lick," or "how about this new effect pedal?" If I even think of my solo in terms of how much of my ability it takes, I truly believe I may need to re-think why I am doing it.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will take my hands and play the guitar in a more meaningful way than I ever could on my own, and that the music that comes out of it would bring the congregation into the place of worship in their hearts that God is calling them to. Everything pretty much falls into place when I get my heart right before I play.

The best advice I've heard on this subject is:

"Are you primarily focused on
1. leading them and being their accompanist and conduit to God, or
2. being seen and heard as the sponge soaking in the audience worship?"

Performance, in this thread's context, is about you while the other reflects their approval, commendation, love, and adoration to God. Worship bands become transparent in congregational participation while the performance band is all they themselves allow you to see.

To answer the OP question, Its really 2-way street; your heart and their's. Are you accompanying? Do they perceive that? I went to a conference a couple years ago and stood with an older woman (late 50's) who exclaimed during the guitar solo "Did you hear that guitar?! He's goin' crazy!!" She wasn't worshipping, just enamoured with the show - moving lights, 3 projection screens, 5 piece band "with an acoustic guitar" (a +1,000 for her because out church band didn't have one despite her repeated appeals that we needed one,) guitar led instead of keys, etc.

Bottom line: when they spend more time "seeing" you than displaying Approval, Commendation, Love, and Adoration, its received as performance. Your goal - ACLA-mate them to focusing on God.

What is really at issue here is the idea of leading the congregation closer to God, or putting on a concert. In that context, what we do is not a performance in the usual sense of the word. It should never be about "look at this cool lick," or "how about this new effect pedal?" If I even think of my solo in terms of how much of my ability it takes, I truly believe I may need to re-think why I am doing it.

That is the issue except who decides what leads the congregation? There is a vocal minority that says anything with drums is a concert, anything with electric guitar is a rock show. But that same minority will often have no trouble with strings, 5 part harmony and massive choirs with soloists.

Thats kinda the point of the thread, what's the difference between a hundred voice choir with soloist and pipe organ and a young band wielding telecasters and tubescreamers?

That is the issue except who decides what leads the congregation? There is a vocal minority that says anything with drums is a concert, anything with electric guitar is a rock show. But that same minority will often have no trouble with strings, 5 part harmony and massive choirs with soloists.

Thats kinda the point of the thread, what's the difference between a hundred voice choir with soloist and pipe organ and a young band wielding telecasters and tubescreamers?
I agree I was just on a board of a more traditional church and it had a news story about a woman with a tambourine being escorted out of a church and eventually cop tazed her.

The first joke was I hope they get the guitar players next. Now their churches have guitar players but the more fundamental among the members wish for pipe organs and chants, anything else being dismissed as a rock or folk concert and not for for church and honoring God.

The entire worship versus show discussion is just an opportunity to say where you fall on the scale of using "church only" instruments to tearing off our clothes and praise dancing as David danced using modern technology as he used a 10 string harp

For me, too much performance is distracting and elaborate soloing also. The reason I have trouble with it, is because music worship is not my best form of worship. I am a daydreamer and need to be more focused on the words. If the "performance" is too entertaining, I'm watching that instead of where I should. Hymns are really better for me in that respect, even though I'm a guitar guy at heart. Now I've learned over the years that I am not unique in anything, so if I feel this way there are others who are similar. The worship team needs to be sensitive to all sorts of folks in the congregation.

you gotta watch it, personal worship may be playing with your God given talents, but a 40min blues solo isn't suitable for congregation worship,

i always kept my playing to a minimum because of this but recently i heard a dude play in a worship with lots of bluesy lead lines and snippets throughout, many many people said it made the whole worship setting deeper because of someone using their talents. you just gotta gauge whats appropriate

Duncas, I agree, but assuming the arrangement allows for congregational participation, then what constitutes Preformance?

Seems to me some church folk think of well practiced, great sounding musicians as putting on a "performance" and the same playing tentatively and tensely, sometimes on the edge of a train wreck, after only practicing just enough to get it as "worship".

You can leap, dance, play with all your might, be undignified, be humiliated and be half naked. (2 Samuel 6)

Any time I play a solo, I keep it short so that the congregation can get back to singing. Personally, I am not comfortable with the idea that I may be coming across as trying to be the center of attention because that is never, in any way, my intention. I am 100% thankful for the honor of being able to take whatever talent I have and using it in worship for Him. However, as I said in a previous thread, I've never understood why we can have lengthy piano or violin solo's with no questions or worries, but the minute it's an electric guitar solo it becomes controversial.

You can leap, dance, play with all your might, be undignified, be humiliated and be half naked. (2 Samuel 6)

man, i need that printed on my parts caster! haha.

in terms of congregational participation, for singing parts then keep it simple, between singing parts add little bits. make worship a more special occasion

A performance is to entertain people. Worship is entertaining the Lord; so to speak.

People confuse worship with performance at times because they equate things like guitars as being rock concert items. So wrong.

There are some churches out there that seem to cater more to the entertainment side of things and it does come of as a performance rather than worship.

But like it was said before, when you judge it always blows up in your face. Best thing is to be humble and always worship and give thanks to the Lord wether you have a tiny pedal board or a huge one. Keep your heart right and the rest will follow. God will tug at the heart strings of those that mistake worship as a performance because regardless did they not come to worship? He'll tug at 'em.

On occasion we have had a painter or sculptor work during a service to illustrate a point
Their art is an expression of the heart through their hands. Don't see how that is different than what we are doing....As stated above..it is possible to cross the line...however,
In my opinion...well played music and musicians interacting, like musicians do, and people are used to seeing is less distracting than a stage full of guys with headphones
hunched behind music stands with nary a tapping of the foot. It might as well be trax at that point.

Where the line is definitely depends on the church and pastor. I know I have my own ideas about what is acceptable, but it may not work where I am serving. I know what God expects is that I figure out how to work within what the WL/MD/Pastor decide.

I also agree with the statement that when we play we perform. How could we not? Everything we do is a performance. Jesus performed miracles. I spent a couple hours Saturday in the woodshed to nail a hard riff for a Sunday song, for two reasons: (1) I wanted to perform it technically correctly because the band depended on it, and (2) I wanted to perform it with my personal expression and feeling, not just be a mindless robot whose fingers could copy a lick yet not be able to respond to the flow of the music during that song. And people who know the song are gonna notice either way: if I nail it, they notice, if I bonk it, they notice, if I replace it with something else, they notice. None of that matters ultimately.

So maybe the answer should focus on who the audience is. Make it God and let the rest of it work itself out.

Where the line is definitely depends on the church and pastor. I know I have my own ideas about what is acceptable, but it may not work where I am serving. I know what God expects is that I figure out how to work within what the WL/MD/Pastor decide.


+1... You beat me to it. So much of the stuff discussed here (volume levels, song choices, conflicts, etc) is ultimately up to the Pastor & WL to decide... a democracy, it ain't (in most churches anyway). Fortunately, my pastor & I are almost always on the same page about WT stuff, and for those occasional times when we aren't, we discuss it, and he makes the final decision.

Btw, our band tries to lead the congregation in worship, but at the same time, disappear. We don't want to do anything that distracts from the worship. That doesn't mean we don't take solos, but we try to make them a good fit for the song... when folks are praying out loud or singing over the instrumental, it's a good sign that we're not drawing attention to ourselves.

"I heard there was a secret(sacred?) chord that david played and it pleased the Lord".

Pleasing the Lord is worship. I have spent most of the last 18 months out of the pulpit and out of the music ministry. I have taken time to worship personally that I didn't have when I was playing and preaching.

As musicians, pastors etc. our job is to make it possible for OTHERS to worship. We create the atmosphere for their experience. Often we must sacrifice our own worship to accomodate their needs which in itself is a form of worship.

When we fail to make this sacrifice we fall into the realm of performance because it becomes more about us than about the one we seek to worship.

For the biblically minded among us I point us to Hebrews 13:15 where we are admonished to give the sacrifice of praise. We as the leaders must always make possible for those who are following to be easily able to enter the place where God dwells. This means we must walk through the door first and then step out of the way so that they can enter also.

This isn't an issue of style but one of attitude. When we are challenged because of styles we must remember that we must "become all things to all men that we might reach some". Not easy if you like country, I like funk and the deacons like opera. Accomodating by holding back on some of what we want and doing some of what they want is what having a servant heart and washing feet is all about.

Anybody up on stage is performing, IMO.

Anybody up on stage is performing, IMO.

Yep, but musicians in church have a different audience.

Doing a duckwalk across the Chancel?

Spandex and skull-laden metal guitars?

Spandex and skull-laden metal guitars?

I think Spandex and leather both automatically constitute a performance.

True worship turns into performance when you don't allow the Holy Spirit to do his thing.

You're suppose to play skillfully.
"Sing to Him a new song; play skillfully on the strings, with loud shouts." (Psalm 33:3)

1 Chronicles 25:6-7 says, "All these were under the direction of their fathers as they made music at the house of the Lord. Their responsibilities included the playing of cymbals, harps, and lyres at the house of God. Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman reported directly to the king. They and their families were all trained in making music before the Lord, and each of them—288 in all—was an accomplished musician."


Its also about where the hearts of the musicians are pointed. If the lead guitar player is soloing and thinking to himself "Oh I'm awesome, go me!" vs "God, what do you want this to sound like?"

When it comes to me, the song can go perfectly and wonderfully, but if it doesn't move God's heart then it means nothing!

Eccl 5:1 "Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. Go near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools, who do not know that they do wrong."

Don't get so caught up in the music that you miss the moment, slow down, listen and follow the leader!

Love you guys, hope this gives insight to someone.

When you use your talent for the Glory of the One who gave it to you, That is performance. When you survive a self-percieved trainwreck of a solo or song you don't know or play well, and nobody seems to notice or care (they probably notice), that's Grace. I think it is important for the Worship Team to worship as they play. It just seems to happen that way for some of us. Occasionally, one might drift off a bit, but it's in the right place.

I agree with those who would say that what we do is a performance... the line under consideration for me becomes, "does the praise go to me" (my playing skill, my equipment, my tone, etc...) or "does the praise go to The One" who gave me the gift, blessed me with a church that lets me play... The One who created light and music and should be praised for every good notion our minds can imagine, our bodies can produce, and our being can experience? Unless I can prove otherwise (through scripture), I will look forward to every performance that God provides.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will take my hands and play the guitar in a more meaningful way than I ever could on my own, and that the music that comes out of it would bring the congregation into the place of worship in their hearts that God is calling them to. Everything pretty much falls into place when I get my heart right before I play.

^ That is a beautiful way to put it and thank you for sharing it with us, I'll be using it.

I hate the "it's not performance, it's worship" argument with a passion. When you play music, you perform. Simple as that. I can't stand still when I play. I've had more people say they like how our band interacts vs. just standing there staring at our sheets. When we as musicians are into what we are doing, that usually spreads to the congregation.

I'd say if you lower yourself down via wires in the middle of the congregation and float to the stage, with Ace Freely sparks shooting out of your headstock, you may be overdoing the performance thing in a worship setting.


I actually had to hold back tea spewing out my nose at the imagery there :lol:

LMAO! :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen:

This is exactly what I feel. Ya know, it's not my fault (well.....maybe a little) that God put these guitar licks in my heart! And by God I'm gonna play the darn thing! With all my heart, with all my strength, with all my mind, with all my soul! Because that crowd sittingout there hungry for inspiration - for all intents and purposes - that crowd is God sitting there! (I think you all know how I mean that!)

Our rhythm section has been talking and we are putting our frustrations aside. We say play with all our hearts, be the inspiration, let the wet blanket WL either keep up or get outa the way. His style of Klingon funeral dirge worship might be putting our church to sleep, but......not on our watch!

I have never gotten the "quit performing" thing either. No, I'm not gonna show up in spandex and lacquered hair, I don't want any spotlights, but by God I am going to play every ounce of inspired guitar rhythm and lead that God puts in my heart! That church will get my best music and best inspiration that my heart has to offer. And people comment on it and they love the feeling they have for worship when our team plays with conviction, and they love how it makes their kids WANT to be there! We have other teams that play like wax robots, and it's like being at a funeral sometimes.

Now....... lets plug in that Mesa......:cool::grin:

.....an older woman (late 50's) who exclaimed during the guitar solo "Did you hear that guitar?! He's goin' crazy!!" She wasn't worshipping, just enamoured with the show - moving lights, 3 projection screens, 5 piece band "with an acoustic guitar" (a +1,000 for her because out church band didn't have one despite her repeated appeals that we needed one,) guitar led instead of keys, etc.

Maybe it's HER heart that's in the wrong place? :idea:

That's not the guitar player's fault. Maybe God is using that guitar player to get her to pay attention to just what kind of powerful influence God can have on our lives?

Seems to me some church folk think of well practiced, great sounding musicians as putting on a "performance" and the same playing tentatively and tensely, sometimes on the edge of a train wreck, after only practicing just enough to get it, as "worship".Unfortunately, in my church those folk are most of the musicians!


On occasion we have had a painter or sculptor work during a service to illustrate a point
Their art is an expression of the heart through their hands. Don't see how that is different than what we are doing....As stated above..it is possible to cross the line...however,
In my opinion...well played music and musicians interacting, like musicians do, and people are used to seeing is less distracting than a stage full of guys with headphones
hunched behind music stands with nary a tapping of the foot. It might as well be trax at that point.YUP!

Seems to me some church folk think of well practiced, great sounding musicians as putting on a "performance" and the same playing tentatively and tensely, sometimes on the edge of a train wreck, after only practicing just enough to get it as "worship".

This.

In your heart and spirit. And that's between each of us and God. He searches and knows our heart, and the spirit of what we do. Being attentive to His guidance and sensitive to the holy spirit are key. And allowing Him to do the work in us, unto our perfecting in Him. Then our praise worship become pure and holy and worthy to Him. That's all that matters. Some people will come to worship, others will come to see a "performance" or be entertained, that is NOT our concern and is between THEM and God. Only please Him, He will do the work in others.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will take my hands and play the guitar in a more meaningful way than I ever could on my own, and that the music that comes out of it would bring the congregation into the place of worship in their hearts that God is calling them to. Everything pretty much falls into place when I get my heart right before I play.

ME TOO!!! This sums it all up, this is they key to the whole issue.

LMAO! :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen:

This is exactly what I feel. Ya know, it's not my fault (well.....maybe a little) that God put these guitar licks in my heart! And by God I'm gonna play the darn thing! With all my heart, with all my strength, with all my mind, with all my soul! Because that crowd sittingout there hungry for inspiration - for all intents and purposes - that crowd is God sitting there! (I think you all know how I mean that!)

Our rhythm section has been talking and we are putting our frustrations aside. We say play with all our hearts, be the inspiration, let the wet blanket WL either keep up or get outa the way. His style of Klingon funeral dirge worship might be putting our church to sleep, but......not on our watch!

I have never gotten the "quit performing" thing either. No, I'm not gonna show up in spandex and lacquered hair, I don't want any spotlights, but by God I am going to play every ounce of inspired guitar rhythm and lead that God puts in my heart! That church will get my best music and best inspiration that my heart has to offer. And people comment on it and they love the feeling they have for worship when our team plays with conviction, and they love how it makes their kids WANT to be there! We have other teams that play like wax robots, and it's like being at a funeral sometimes.

Now....... lets plug in that Mesa......:cool::grin:

AMEN TO THAT!!! LOL!
I was at a Christian music event this summer, it was kinda dry and droll, very "un-inspired/un-inspiring". Nothing about it was worshipful, about all they sang about was "someday by and by I'm gonna get a reward and I can't wait!". A friend of mine looks at me and says, "sounds like they all just want to die!" lol! Worship should never be that!!!

I look at this issue this way...

A worship team (every member included) should be transparent during worship. It's not the team or the music that is the worship. It's the act of using those things and writing a personal love letter to God. That's worship.

It totally kills a worship service in my opinion to all of a sudden have someone breakout in a solo at stage center. Takes the worshipers attention off God and puts it on the "performance" at hand.

If a worshiper is noticing that you as a team member has multiple gadgets for whatever instrument your playing then that worshiper is not lost in worship. They are stuck on the performance. This is in no way your fault.

It's all a matter of where the worshipers heart is. As long as you the team member is using your God given talent to the best of your ability and being transparent to the worshiper you've got nothing to worry about. :-)

Reading this thread, and others, here is my conclusion:

It's way too subjective, based on your particular church, worshipers, style of worship, style of music, etc.

There is celebration worship, thoughtful worship, etc etc. Whatever is working for your church is the right answer, I think.