5c1, 5c3, 5f1, 5e3 concurrent builds

The bill of materials off of the taweber website has been down downloaded and the passive components from mouser arrived in the mail. I didn't include the chassis, wires and screw and stuff or wood for that matter, but these lists should be enough to get me started. I'll be building the board and chassis from scratch. One thing. the BOM lists the 2 500 ohm resisters for the 5C1 as 10 watts, the layout calls for 5 watts, I ordered the 10 watt resisters already and will be using them.

5C1
1 Transformer, Power USA
1 Transformer, output
1 5Y3GT Rectifier
1 6V6GT Vacuum tube
1 6SJ7 Vacuum tube
1 Fuse, 2 amp
3 Tube socket, octal
1 RCA plug, male, cable mount
1 Pilot light
2 Chassis mount phone jack, shorting
1 Potentiometer, 1 meg audio
1 Switch
1 EC Capacitor, 25uF, 25 volts
2 EC Capacitor, 8uF, 450 volts
1 EC Capacitor, 16uF, 450 volts
2 Capacitor, .022uF, 630 volts
1 Capacitor, .047uF, 630 volts
2 Resistor, 75K, 1/2 watt
1 Resistor, 250K, 1/2 watt
1 Resistor, 2 meg, 1/2 watt
1 Resistor, 5 meg, 1/2 watt
1 Resistor, 22K, 2 watt
2 Resistor, 500 ohms, 10 watt
1 Speaker, Signature Series, 8", 4 ohm, AlNiCo, S type

5C3
1 Power Transformer USA
1 Transformer, output
2 6V6GT Vacuum tube
2 6N9P Vacuum tube or equivilant
1 5Y3GT Rectifier
1 CF-2 Fuse, 2 amp
5 SKT8 Tube socket, octal
1 PP-C Phone plug, cable mount
1 Pilot light,
2 Carling Switch, toggle, panel mount, SPST
1 Chassis mount phone jack
5 Chassis mount phone jack, shorting
3 Potentiometer, 1 meg audio
1 Capacitor, 500pF, 500 volts
2 EC Capacitor, 25uF, 25 volts
3 EC Capacitor, 16uF, 450 volts
1 Capacitor, .0047uF, 630 volts
4 Capacitor, .047uF, 630 volts
2 Capacitor, .1uF, 630 volts
1 Resistor, 2.5K, 1/2 watt
1 Resistor, 25K, 1/2 watt
2 Resistor, 75K, 1/2 watt
5 Resistor, 250K, 1/2 watt
2 Resistor, 1M ohm, 1/2 watt
2 Resistor, 5M ohm, 1/2 watt
2 Resistor, 10K, 2 watt
1 Resistor, 250, 5 watt
1 Speaker, Signature Series, 12", 8 ohm, AlNiCo

5F1
1 Power Transformer USA
1 Transformer, output
1 5Y3GT Rectifier
1 6V6GT Vacuum tube
1 12AX7B Vacuum tube
1 CF-2 Fuse, 2 amp
2 SKT8 Tube socket, octal
1 SKT9 Tube socket, 9 pin
1 RCA jack, chassis mount, diamond fiber base
1 RCA plug, male, cable mount
1 Pilot light
2 Chassis mount phone jack, shorting
1 Potentiometer, 1 meg audio
1 Switch
2 EC Capacitor, 25uF, 25 volts
2 EC Capacitor, 8uF, 450 volts
1 EC Capacitor, 16uF, 450 volts
2 Capacitor, .022uF, 630 volts
2 Resistor, 1.5K, 1/2 watt
1 Resistor, 22K, 1/2 watt
2 Resistor, 68K, 1/2 watt
2 Resistor, 100K, 1/2 watt
1 Resistor, 220K, 1/2 watt
1 Resistor, 1M ohm, 1/2 watt
1 Resistor, 10K, 2 watt
1 Resistor, 22K, 2 watt
1 Resistor, 470 ohms, 5 watt
1 Speaker, Signature Series, 8", 4 ohm, AlNiCo

5E3
1 Power Transformer USA
1 Transformer, output
2 6V6GT Vacuum tube
2 12AX7B Vacuum tube
1 5Y3GT Rectifier
1 CF-2 Fuse, 2 amp
3 SKT8 Tube socket, octal
2 SKT9 Tube socket, 9 pin
1 Phone plug, cable mount
1 Pilot light
2 Carling Switch, toggle, panel mount, SPST
1 Chassis mount phone jack
5 Chassis mount phone jack, shorting
3 Potentiometer, 1 meg audio
1 Capacitor, 500pF, 500 volts
3 EC Capacitor, 25uF, 25 volts
3 EC Capacitor, 16uF, 450 volts
1 Capacitor, .0047uF, 630 volts
1 Capacitor, .022uF, 630 volts
4 Capacitor, .1uF, 630 volts
1 Resistor, 250, 5 watt
1 Resistor, 820, 1/2 watt
4 Resistor, 1.5K, 1/2 watt
2 Resistor, 56K, 1/2 watt
4 Resistor, 68K, 1/2 watt
3 Resistor, 100K, 1/2 watt
2 Resistor, 220K, 1/2 watt
3 Resistor, 1M ohm, 1/2 watt
1 Resistor, 4.7K, 2 watt
1 Resistor, 22K, 2 watt
1 Speaker, Signature Series, 12", 8 ohm, AlNiCo

more to follow when I get a little more work on the boards finished.

Man, you are a glutton for punishment! :grin:

Have a great time, and let us in on it... and as always, pics or it didn't happen. :wink:

charisjapan

Very cool!!

wow

Cuttin' the garolite with the jigsaw. Bandsaw didn't like this stuff. Too hard I guess. Blade broke two seconds into the cut. I'll stick with the trusty jigsaw.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_001.jpg

Now I take my BOM and some ziploc bags and start sorting out the box of stuff from mouser. I made sure I labeled each part that wasn't easily identifiable. I will be building 2 5f1s for now. tht is why I have a second bag labeled 5f1.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_002.jpg

The paper temlpates are adhered to some card stock with a quick shot of aerosol sticky in a can.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_003.jpg

The holes are marked into the garolite using a pointy thing that used to be a screwdriver.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_004.jpg

The dimples are marked into the garolite and now the holes are drilled.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_005.jpg

1/8 inch solid copper and brass eyelets can be had for about 3 pennies each. just search "scraobooking" or "eyelets" on ebay. Just make sure you get solid copper or brass. Most eyelets are anodized aluminum and will not work.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_006.jpg

This a pretty neat tool. Once again craft stores or sewing outlets is where you will find this.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_007.jpg

I'm using brass eyelets for the octals and copper eyelets for the others to keep them easily identifiable. 5C1 ready to be populated.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_008.jpg

5c3
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_009.jpg

5f1
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_010.jpg

and finally the 5e3
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_011.jpg

The board is done on the 5c1. notice the ten watt resisters instead of the 5 watt. The weber BOM calls for 10 watters but the layout shows 5 watters. The bigger resisters will be fine.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_012.jpg

Here is another photo from a different angle. I like to leave the ends of the components sticking out of the holes. I made a little u-bend in the wire. I'm thinking that it will help keep the solder from running out of the bottom of the eyelet. I do not want any blobs of solder forming on the underside of my boards, that could pose a "short circuit" issue down the road.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_013.jpg

Very Cool. Haven't built a 5C1, but I do own an SE 5 watter someone built with an octal preamp tube. Nice amp with great tone and a lot of grit.

It is beneficial to leave a good air gap between bypass caps and cathode resistors.

What is the thickness of your garolite?

If you install your cut wire as you go, you will have more metal in the eyelet hole. If you cut your wire to 3.5 inches in length (from wherever it comes off the board), you will have sufficient wire length to install the board in a typical chassis. Adjust wire length as required for your custom chassis.

garolite is 5/32

So you decided to build 'em all huh? 8-)

So you decided to build 'em all huh? 8-)

Yesh, I'd like to have at least six amps built and ready to go by November.
5c1, two 5f1 a 5c3 and two 5e3 plus the boothill 5e3 and the hammonator.

I'll probably keep the boothill 5e3 and the hammonator for myself. The remaining 6 will have to find new homes.

I'm hoping this heat finally lets up a bit and I can work on these amps in the backyard.
c'mon 101 degrees, that's ridiculous.

You do very interesting builds, MCT,I'll be watching for sure.

the 5c1 has it's connecting wires soldered
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_014.jpg

backside 5c1
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_015.jpg

for the 5c3 I'll do what David suggested by stuffing all the necessary wires into the hole and soldering just once as I go along
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_016.jpg

The wires on the bottom get stuffed into the hole from the bottom. I like my weller soldering gun. It heats up quick and does the job quickly.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_017.jpg

5c3 board is done
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_018.jpg

5c3 back
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_019.jpg

move onto the 5F1 front
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_020.jpg

5f1 back
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_021.jpg

Here's a good tip:

That small bit of wire at the cut end - exposed as it exits the eyelet - frame 4 close-up shot - if you find that you can easily bend that wire away from the joint...

Get your iron good and hot...

And flow some really hot solder on that joint...

The solder will crawl up that wire at the joint and stiffen it. It will become rigid.

This will strengthen the joint...

Helping to eliminate potential vibration and wear-related issues down the road.

First day under 95 in a long while. I'll work in yard.

5e3 started side by side.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_022.jpg

finished 5e3 top
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_023.jpg

finished 5e3 back
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_024.jpg

I ordered my 12 inch weber speakers direct from the factory. I'm sure the customer service I might need down the road will surely make up for the little bit extra I had to pay to ship.

Motor City, I'm developing a theory that weather near you is always 10 degrees hotter! You are like your own sun!! Hard workin' and whatnot :)

Being the cheapskate I am, I went ahead and picked up three of the Peavey 8" Guitar Speaker 4 Ohms 70777082. Has anyone gave these a listen in a Champ 5c1/5f1 circuit?

It was impossible not to click the parts-express (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=299-202) link when you see an 8 dollar 8 inch 4 ohm speaker. They got me. I just wonder how they knew I was researching 8 inch 4 ohm speakers for my champ builds. Then outta the blue, an internet ad shows up in the margin for exactly what I was searching for. hmmmm. It's like they were reading my mind. (or browser history, one of the two)

It was impossible not to click the parts-express (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=299-202) link when you see an 8 dollar 8 inch 4 ohm speaker. They got me. I just wonder how they knew I was researching 8 inch 4 ohm speakers for my champ builds. Then outta the blue, an internet ad shows up in the margin for exactly what I was searching for. hmmmm. It's like they were reading my mind. (or browser history, one of the two)

have you tried the 8 inch weber? if you have can you let me know how much of a difference there is between the eber and peavey?

It was impossible not to click the parts-express link when you see an 8 dollar 8 inch 4 ohm speaker.

I'm in. Thanks for the tip. Great Deal. It's a steal.

It was impossible not to click the parts-express link when you see an 8 dollar 8 inch 4 ohm speaker.


I'm in too. I needed to buy some things anyway as I needed a small $2 part anyway.. bough two of those and a handle for an amp cab while I was at it.

I wonder how one of these speakers would sound in my Champ 600???

I think it would be a great improvement. Does the 600 require a 4 or 8 ohm speaker? The Peavey Specials are 4 ohm speakers which require a 4 ohm output transformer.

I think it would be a great improvement. Does the 600 require a 4 or 8 ohm speaker?

Champ 600 is 4 ohm. I have a "spare" Weber Sig that's 8 ohm, and about once a month I get the brilliant idea of making a new speaker baffle so I can put it into my C600. Cool! Then I remember it needs a 4 ohm speaker. D'oh! Then I forget it until next month. Repeat. Getting older is fun!

(Sorry for the threadjack , MCT!)

Champ 600 is 4 ohm. I have a "spare" Weber Sig that's 8 ohm, and about once a month I get the brilliant idea of making a new speaker baffle so I can put it into my C600. Cool! Then I remember it needs a 4 ohm speaker. D'oh! Then I forget it until next month. Repeat. Getting older is fun!

(Sorry for the threadjack , MCT!)

it's a four ohm minimum though. so you could use it, but it just wouldn't be as efficient. i think. or it'll blow up.

I'm still undecided on how I'll build the chassis for my builds. I will not be purchasing them unless they are so cheap it will cost less than the materials to build them. Not gonna happen. I'll first build a set of templates out of garolite. I'll use these to finish the wiring and then transfer everything to the real chassis where I'll add the trannies and ground bus. I'll also use these templates to mark out my measurements onto my metal, whatever that might be.

I printed out the images using PhotoShop at a reduced percentage.
95.24% for the champs (http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/5f1_chassis.gif) and
77.62% for the deluxes (http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/5e3_chassis.gif).
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_025.jpg

probably the cheapest tool I own.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_026.jpg

5f1 chassis at 100%
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_027.jpg

two of the three sides of a 5e3 at 100%
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_028.jpg

The one process that I can't seem to figure out is the bending of the chassis. I will not have the proper tools for this and using a hammer just seems wrong. Even if I clamped some of the big steel plates I have and used leverage, I don't see me getting the corners sharp enough. I do have access to a welder and may just weld up the chassis. I'm not worried about the appearance, anything exposed will be covered up by a faceplate.

I am really liking your idea of a build from scratch amp(s)! What are you figuring to use, 18ga steel?

Mark

Nothing wrong with a hammer. Now if I was trying to make it look nice I would have done a better job. But being a test chassis it was not worth the effort. What you want to do is use a metal block to transfer the hammer blows to the metal. You just work from one end and go to the other doing a bit of the bend at a time. A couple of passes and you are done.

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp142/printer2_photo/guitar%20amp/25L6ampchassis02.jpg

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp142/printer2_photo/guitar%20amp/25L6ampchassis03.jpg

My Weber speakers were on the doorstep when arrived home from work yesterday.
Sig12F-S
Ceramic 12 inch Weber Signature Series Speaker.

Any love for this speaker?

That's pretty ambitious I must say. When you get close to finishing the 5E3 be sure to get your hands on a 12AY7 for V1. It made all the difference in the world for my build.

That's pretty ambitious I must say. When you get close to finishing the 5E3 be sure to get your hands on a 12AY7 for V1. It made all the difference in the world for my build.

I will be wiring my 5e3's to use the Russian 6n2P-EV twin triode pre-amp tubes.
I bought a bunch of these for like two bucks each. Every review I've read claims that these are comparable to the 12ax7 as long as the sockets are wired for them. pins 4 and 5 are heaters - pin 9 to ground.

I'm still undecided on how I'll build the chassis for my builds. I will not be purchasing them unless they are so cheap it will cost less than the materials to build them. Not gonna happen. ...

The one process that I can't seem to figure out is the bending of the chassis. I will not have the proper tools for this and using a hammer just seems wrong. Even if I clamped some of the big steel plates I have and used leverage, I don't see me getting the corners sharp enough. I do have access to a welder and may just weld up the chassis. I'm not worried about the appearance, anything exposed will be covered up by a faceplate.

As to your definition of 'cheap', that depends on what you want out of it. The hammer method will leave welts in the chassis, which you can selectively 'hide' (up to a point) depending on which side of the fold you use the hammer on.

But it never looks as look as using a proper folding brake. (Which you might want to consider investing in, if you're going to do this again and again)

IME, 6N2P are good tubes.

Got me a brand new shiny chassis all soldered up.
Got me a homemade glass telecaster.
Got me a new 12 inch speaker.
Got me some juice 'cuz I pay my bills.

Good thing I got me some patience.

http://www.paulrubyamps.com/info.html#FirstPowerUp

I read this article and boy I'm glad I did.
I checked my work and noticed I had created myself a ground loop.

I'll be fixing that tonight.
Then it's golf on Wednesday.
Thursday evening will be the first test.

I'll also be consulting my expert on steel about the chassis designs I have.

Maybe even break out the potato cannon.

tootles - jb

Success. Boothill kit amp rocks

One voltage value seemed out of place though.
pin 7 of V2 gave us 16 volts and should be around 3 volts.

The 56k resister in that circuit gave us a 69k value.
we brought down the resistance with another in parallel but
the voltage was still higher than expected at 12

maybe a leaky cap?

I took a quick video of the maiden voyage by plugging in OldGloryCaster.
I'll post it soon. - I'm a pretty crappy guitar player.

btw tweed cabs are way overrated - a cardboard box makes a great speaker cab. :lol:

Success. Boothill kit amp rocks
One voltage value seemed out of place though.
pin 7 of V2 gave us 16 volts and should be around 3 volts.


Upon further research, it looks lilke 16 volts at V2 pin7 might not be all that wrong.

I located an updated 5e3 schematic with voltages (http://support.fender.com/schematics/guitar_amplifiers/57_Deluxe_Fender_57_schematic.pdf) on the Fender website that more or less agrees with the values I got yesterday. I'm not going to worry about it any more.

anybody want to see a video of the potato cannon?

anybody want to see a video of the potato cannon?

MotorCity,

Glad the voltage issue seems settled!

Lessee your cardboard cab, and...

Yeah, the potato cannon, too! :grin:

a couple quick videos
CtuNwl28Drs
Elhi1pls3yw

That sounds like a 5E3 all right. It's a little boxy but I expect that'll improve when you ditch the box. LOL! Potato canon looks fun too!

a couple quick videos

Keith beat me to it, but yeah, new definition of "boxy" for cab builders. :grin:

Love that MacGyver Cannon!! We aren't allowed guns here in Japan, so if aliens land I'll know what to do. :twisted:

charisjapan

motor_city_tele: what is the estimated cost so far for 5e3 the way you're building? I still have the urge to build from scratch, but lack the scratch ($$) if you know what I mean.

I scrounged my brothers barn for any scrap metal that he has hanging around. I need 3 pieces 9 x 9 about yay thick. will this do? It will, thank you very much.

He didn't have exactly 9 x 9 inch pieces so I had to pull out the saw.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_0291.jpg

Next i dinged a dent where the center of the big hole goes.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_0301.jpg

It's just a ding.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_0311.jpg

Now with a fully charged battery and some clamps, I took on the big holes.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_032.jpg

Piece of cake - boom, done.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_033.jpg

The octals will go there.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_034.jpg

Drilling the remaining holes and cutting out the center for the Power tranny. Whoever was trimming their weeds at 8:30 this morning, I chose to use my jigsaw and a dull blade to cut through my sheet metal, just for you. Hows that sound?
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_035.jpg

PT fits
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_036.jpg

Now mark the holes for the OT
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_037.jpg

PT from the inside. hey - who bent the shape without any pictures? - thanks alot.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_038.jpg

OT in position
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_039.jpg

grommets in place
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_040.jpg

Board will fit with plenty of room to spare.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_041.jpg

Sorta looking like a champ
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_042.jpg

One down (almost) two more chassis to bend. I promise to take pictures of the process. nothing out of the ordinary - just a hammer, clamps and a thick piece of steel.

'till next time - tootles - jb
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_043.jpg

Nice folds for a hammer!

motor_city_tele: what is the estimated cost so far for 5e3 the way you're building? I still have the urge to build from scratch, but lack the scratch ($$) if you know what I mean.

You know, I haven't been keeping track of the materials cost. I treat this as more of a hobby than business. I can probably come up with some ballpark numbers though.
The nice and shiney 5e3 is a boothill kit, buck fiddy nine.
PT - NOS Crest - 22.00
OT classicTone - market price - 31.65 each
speaker - weber ceramic sig - 35.00
Pine from Lowes - 10.00 or so
tweed covering for grill cloth - 3.00 / yard
tubes - 20.00

that puts it at about 283.00

The scratch builds will come in slightly less because I plan on building the chassis and turret boards.
board - garolite from mcmaster-carr - less than a buck
copper eyelets - 0.03 ea.
chassis - scrap sheet metal - free
hookup wire - less than a buck
sockets - 2.50 each

tube-20.00? no way . . . way

the pre-amp tubes cost about 2-3 each. 6n2p Russian. NOS
6V6 - 5.00 each - NOS or Russian or even a good used tube.
Rectos - 5.00 each - usually used but tested good.

I like to search the internet for deals on this stuff, it's a big part of the hobby for me. like a 22.00 nos PT - play things from the past.
No, it doesn't say "fits a tweed deluxe" in the description and no, there are no colored wires. but the specs seem on the money. sometimes searching for odd text strings can yield interesting results. ie. "325-0-325" might lead to an out of the blue place.

Got me a couple hours before Coronation Street (R.I.P. Geoffrey Hughes) and I find myself completely surrounded by no beer. I'll bend up the two remaining 5#1 chassis.

Got me two major league clamps, a honkin' piece of steel, a scrap of ash leftover from the x12 build, and my favorite little hammer I used as a kid.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_044.jpg

I clamp down the steel with about 1/4 inch sticking out.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_045.jpg

I then give it a bunch of tiny little taps and work the edge up 90 degrees.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_046.jpg

Undo the clamps and give it a quick look see. - then repeat it for the other side.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_047.jpg

With my trusty paper printout I mark the chassis where I want to make the next folds.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_048.jpg

I placed the inside dot on the edge.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_049.jpg

Then I place the edge of the steel in the middle and crank down the clamps.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_050.jpg

Now while pulling up wards and giving the chassis little taps, I work up and down the edge slowly until it is 90 degrees.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_051.jpg

Took less time than I thought. I have some time to enlarge the octal socket holes and mount them from under the chassis. I like this look better. Picture the chassis with a finish on it, maybe powder coat or something in the automotive category, like a two part epoxy resin. not sure yet.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_052.jpg

till next time - tootles - jb

Two majot league clamps, a honkin piece of steel, a scrap of ash leftover from the x12 build, and my favorite little hammer I used as a kid.

Man, that looks like fun! (and probably a good idea to be sober when doing those 'little taps' :wink:)

Love those clamps!!

charisjapan

Man, that looks like fun! (and probably a good idea to be sober when doing those 'little taps' :wink:)

Love those clamps!!

charisjapan

Def been around the yard a few times :wink:

Nicely done.

A chassis is only as strong as it's weakest point. without sides on them, I don't believe they will support the weight of the tranny. Trouble is, I don't have enough scrap sheet metal to make six sides for my boxes. I'll have to design around it. A triangle shape will give sufficient support.

First thing is to measure up the chassis and transfer the design onto the scrap.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_053.jpg

start removing the waste.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_054.jpg

then cut in half
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_055.jpg

I fold the long side first, then the two short sides. I do a final check before folding the shortest side to make sure it is going to fit, and adjust accordingly.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_056.jpg

I'll tweak the corners with a file to get a good snug fit. I sure wish I had a spot welder right now.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_057.jpg

One thing I need to do is mark each piece so I don't mix them all up.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_058.jpg

all six sides labeled and ready either paint, drill or weld. not sure yet. let me have a think on it.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_059.jpg

I requested a quote to have six of these things powdercoated but haven't heard back from them.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_060.jpg

Any suggestions out there from the members? I hate to apply a finish, have it look decent then 2 months later see it wearing off.

tootles - jb

Any suggestions out there from the members? I hate to apply a finish, have it look decent then 2 months later see it wearing off.

Hey, JB,

** disclaimer ** I'm no expert on how to coat amp chassis....

As a former mountain bike novice racer, powder-coating is the coolest texture/luster of anything on steel. Just about any paint will flake or wear off, except maybe industrial enamel (which is also nice!)

With enough elbow-grease prep, chrome is nice, but kind of... boring. I mean, on a normal tweed chassis, perfect! But on your hand-made hammer-bent beauties... nah!

Leave them the way they are is an option, kind of a 'neanderthal' approach, which I like. :grin:

Final thought, a thin anodized aluminum faceplate should be pretty easy to fabricate for you! I was thinking gold anodized might look nice with tweed.

I'm sure whatever you finally decide will look great, as those are obviously not your typical MIC chassis!!

Re: attaching the side plates. Spot-welding definitely the easiest. Arc or gas can be messy. How about drill and rivet? Honestly, I would think that chunky plate you used would hold any reasonable set of trannys, but just having that plate riveted in place should handle any flex/vibration.

VERY much enjoying your builds, man!! :cool:

charisjapan

Lots of fun and great pics. There's a hammered finish spray paint that might be cool. Probably the key to good adherence is clean chassis with naptha, primer then paint.

One consideration about powdercoating is ensuring that the holes do not become too small.

They are looking great. Thanks for sharing it's been quite humbling watching you knock em out.

Rivets work fine. Ask the place you will have the coating applied by what they want as a surface. They will know better than the rest of us.

Awesome thread motor... This is very entertaining and informative.

I need to find me one of those old metal desks, preferably one with 3 drawers. One for each of the 5#3 chassis. This would solve my finishing concerns too. I'll have to take the scenic route home from work on garbage night and see if anything jumps out at me.

I did the math and it looks like I need to acquire 3 pieces @ 10.125 x 14.5
and 6 pieces @ 4.875 x 3.

Didn't get a whole lot accomplished over the weekend, but I post some pictures anyroad.

No welding allowed. Just and old fashioned mechanical bolt and nut to fasten the side on.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_061.jpg

I bolted in the trannies and sockets.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_062.jpg

On Sunday I decided to make my way down the road 10 miles to the second closest airport to my house where the Annual Thunder Over Michigan airshow was being held. Here is a P-51 up close and personal.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/airShow2012_001.jpg

A couple more of the 13 P-51 Mustangs that were displayed in the air.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/airShow2012_002.jpg

They even had one of the extended range Mustangs with the disposable paper fuel tanks.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/airShow2012_003.jpg

Not sure what these are but they sure do fly close to each other.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/airShow2012_004.jpg

B-29 Bomber
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/airShow2012_005.jpg

Same B-29 bomber. For 500 bucks I could have gone for a ride. Maybe after I unload my amps I'll have some disposable cash for a plane ride.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/airShow2012_006.jpg

This the only remaining flyable P-38 Lightening in the world. This thing is pretty fast - 400 mph.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/airShow2012_007.jpg

Like my sunshade? a B-52 engine mount blocked the sun all day. This is part of the permanent collection of the museum.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/airShow2012_008.jpg

This a pretty cool airplane - It can take off and land vertically, like a helicopter. Harrier they call it.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/airShow2012_009.jpg

Here is proof. a short video of the Harrier landing right in front of me. Very Loud indeed.
DWkXGA6MR4Y

My dad (an old sheetmetal worker) taught me to wipe galvanized down with vinegar prior to painting so that the paint will stick. I have always done this and never had a problem.

I picked up some more #2 grade 1 x 12 pine boards from Lowes yesterday and began putting some measurements down for my cabs.

Here is a quick tip that I use to make my radius cut on the top.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_063.jpg

Use a hole saw.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_064.jpg

Stop before the hole saw is all the way through to the back.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_065.jpg

Turn the board over and finish the hole from the back. This will eliminate any tearout from the saw.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_066.jpg

1 x 12, you break my heart. All I can get is 1 x 8. Well at least there is laminated pine.

All at once? Wow. That's awesome

Didn't get a whole lot accomplished over the weekend, but I post some pictures anyroad.

No welding allowed. Just and old fashioned mechanical bolt and nut to fasten the side on.

On Sunday I decided to make my way down the road 10 miles to the second closest airport to my house where the Annual Thunder Over Michigan airshow was being held. Here is a P-51 up close and personal.

Not sure what these are but they sure do fly close to each other.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/airShow2012_004.jpg

Like my sunshade? a B-52 engine mount blocked the sun all day. This is part of the permanent collection of the museum.



Motor,

Bolts work fine, but watch your fingers when installing (was gonna say mounting, but that usually gets a snicker or two) the chassis. (potential ouch!)

Thanks for the airshow pics. Takes me back to my childhood, always living on/near airbases. Back when the right connections (Dad was wing commander) could get you on the planes. B-58s, KC-135s, F-104s (sigh). I even sat in an X-15 and SR-71 ("SshhhH! Don't tell anyone.") Mustangs are definitely one of the most cool airplanes aver made!

Those formation flyers are trainers, probably a North American T6 Harvard or Texan? But yeah, pilots are nuts when 'allowed' to be. :wink:

charisjapan

I finally got around to placing my last order for this project. Tubes and more was the lucky candidate this time.

I had a bunch of these sitting around. I need to figure a way to use them.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_067.jpg

bend, bend, bend, drill, bolt - good to go
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_068.jpg

I'll be screwing these jewels directly to the chassis
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_069.jpg

enlarged my 1/2 inch hole a bit and stuck the strain relief thingy in place
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_070.jpg

got a bunch of these in my order today.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_071.jpg

front looks like a champ
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_072.jpg

my super rough cut top should fit. I'll clean these up in the future.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_073.jpg

Larry, Moe, and Curly
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_074.jpg

Ooops, I'm missing a 5F1 board. Gotta put that together pretty soon.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_075.jpg

Question. My Single ended OT has both a 4 ohm and an 8 ohm wire coming out of it. I am going to use only the 4 ohm lead. What do I need to do with the green (8ohm) wire?


tootles - jb

I am going to use only the 4 ohm lead. What do I need to do with the green (8ohm) wire?

Leave it long enough for somebody to use it at some point if they wanted to do so. Tape it up with electrical tape and tie wrap it to the OT up top.

You could also solder the business end of it it to a dead eyelet which you have purposed for that use.

It is also easy to install a small toggle switch DPST so you can have either 4 or 8 ohms at the ready on the one output jack.

Motor,

Those formation flyers are trainers, probably a North American T6 Harvard or Texan? But yeah, pilots are nuts when 'allowed' to be. :wink:

charisjapan

yeah most of those are Harvards. There's a funny looking bird in there tho' that ain't a Harvard. (maybe its a princeton :lol: )

The 5C1 is ready to be fired up. But first I would like to have a reference sheet of proper voltages to measure against. I am using the weber 5c1 layout and schematic.

anybody happen to know those pin voltages off the top of their head?

tootles - jb

Hard to get any work done during football season.

Yesterday I made all of my finger joints. nothing fancy. just a router, my el cheapo router table, a couple clamps and a 1/2 strip of plywood.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_077.jpg

Today I started gluing up the shells
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_078.jpg

Got 4 done. I think I need more clamps. I keep breaking the cheapo harbour freight clamps. After modifying them with a bolt and nut where the trigger pivots, I can finally get some clamping pressure. Now the top piece breaks off.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_079.jpg

Nice work. MCT.

Did you ever find the 5C1 voltages? There are some on this layout.

http://www.turretboards.com/layouts_schematics/fender/layouts/champ_5c1_layout.gif

Mark

This a cool amp thread. I love your chassis work, fingerjoint boxes and everything else, including the airshow pictures - Nice! :cool:

I am starting to source the covering for my cabs and don't really know what I need to purchase. I really can't spend the 40.00/yard for the real stuff but I was hoping to at least get close for like 10.00/yard or less (locally). I'll be covering 7 cabs so price per yard plays an important role in my search. I have the grill cloth sorted and that looks to be a wool sorta stuff that I can cover the baffles with. I'll probably just tack it up with a stapler.

It's the rest of the covering that puzzles me. I look close at some photos and see a weave of some sort. It doesn't seem to have a bunch of stray fibers hanging around like wool. looks very tight in it's weave pattern.

Is it polyester, cotton, burlap, denim, nylon, rayon, vinyl, wool, a blend of something?

"Linen tweed fabric" displays some interesting results.

Also, does anybody how many square yards it takes to cover a champ and to cover a deluxe.

I'll probably stop at jo-ann fabrics and search through the bargain bin.

"May I help you?"

"yes, I'm looking for vintage tweed that was used in the 50's by audio amplification companies as a covering over wooden cabinets"

deer in the headlights

tootles - jb

IIRC, 2 yards (by 54 inch roll) to do a champ. That will yield more than enough material for one champ. I haven't got it down to a science for an assembly line, but that's what I recall by doing one at a time.

You can cover them in just about anything you like as long as the material has some weight/thickness to it.

Fibrous material generally receives shellac and/or clear lacquer or poly coatings well. This lends great durability to the finished product.

Vinyls, naugahyde, tolex and so on are also good. No coatings are needed on these.

There is an art to applying coverings to cabinets. You must do it to understand it.

Your first ones may require metal or plastic corner covers.

That's the way a lot of manufacturers do it, anyway. Quick and dirty.

It is an art form to do flawless corner seams.

got an hour and a half before chef - lets finish the rough cabs.

I get the corners started and pound them together with a hunk of wood.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_080.jpg

when they are pretty tight, I use my square to check for . . ah duh . . square.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_081.jpg

Then I wick some thin set CA into the joints. I've built plenty of high performance model airplanes with CA. They can usually take a 100 mph impact with the ground and still hold together. I think it will be fine for my cabs.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_082.jpg

The last two are done.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_083.jpg

All six ready for some power sanding and my new roundover bit.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_084.jpg

tootles - jb

***Vinyls, naugahyde, tolex and so on are also good.***

I might just get me a coupe yards of naugahyde. I know that stuff is tough. back in the 60's my folks were given three "naugies" as part of a promotional giveaway after getting their sofa recovered. These "monsters" survived a pretty rough upbringing by us kids. They are much heavier than you would think and can really pack a wallop when swung by their arms. They look as new today as they did back when they were first given to us kids. Raggady Andy, sock monkey, and GI Joe didn't fair so well.

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_085.jpg

I just placed an order for 8 yards of 55 inch material that should be somewhat close to the original. found it online here (http://www.newtoto.com/recsocaweupf.html). newtoto.com is the store. 6.25 / yard. They have tons of stuff reasonably priced.

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_086.jpg

tootles - jb

That looks good. Once you get some shellac and lacquer on it, few would be able to tell the difference. You can't beat that price with a stick.

Should work great.
Good find.

Are you going to put a 1/2" roundover on the corners (of the cab work)?

It's another wonderful day in the big mitten. I wish the sun would stay out a little longer though. The available daylight is a minute or two shorter than the previous day. better get busy

I cut my finger joints a smidge deeper than the thickness of the wood so now I need to smooth them out. Belt sander makes quick work of it.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_087.jpg

Before I roundover the edges, I want to apply the fascia boards. I am using red oak for these. I figure a hardwood will hold the baffle in place better than the softer pine.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_088.jpg

Actually the truth is that I didn't plan on covering the cabs. I was going to just finish the cabs in clear to show off the pine. The red oak was chosen to accent the front. But since my joinery is a bit suspect, I decided to cover the cabs with fabric instead.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_089.jpg

1/2 inch or 1/4 inch baffle? I'd better check the clearance before deciding. It's a close fit in there - 1/4 inch baffle it will be, at least for the champs.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_090.jpg

Only got three done today, I'll finish up the other three Thursday.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_091.jpg

Once I get the shells all sanded and square, I'll break out the roundover bit and make some more sawdust.

tootles - jb

With the cabs starting to come together, and the chassis for the most part completed, it is time to start focusing on the details. As of today, I plan on building faceplates for the front (top) panel out of thin wood and add a veneer made out of flamed maple. I have some sheets left over from a purchase a few years ago. All of the lettering will be printed onto a water slide decal and adhered to the faceplate in the usual manner.

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/faceplate_decals2-1.jpg

After looking at the numbers for a little while, I decided to nix the whole circle. I'll be using chicken head knobs and decided there is no need for a second reference indicator. The pointy knobs should speak for themselves.
from left to right

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/faceplate_5e3_decals.jpg

Standby, 2 amp, on, tone, volume, volume, bright, normal then 2 and 1 for the inputs.

that willl keep it simple.

For that matter, why not make the Volume go to an odd number?

The Roman numerals are a cool idea.

If I do the roundovers first then they are finished. But, I would have to be extra careful not to ding any the edges while measuring and fitting the baffles and back panels. So panels it is.

But first. I should smooth out the sawmarks left by my jigsaw. I will improvise with a hand drill to get the job done easier.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_093.jpg

Close enough for government work. Time to move on to the baffles and panels.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_094.jpg

Wouldn't you know it. Just as I am getting ready to layout and cut my panels, a Quality Control representative shows up out of nowhere.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_095.jpg

I don't have time for this, but trying to talk my way out of the audit seems to be falling on deaf ears. Maybe a bribe will work.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_096.jpg

A good chuff on the belly has opened his ears and he seemed to forget all about the audit.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_097.jpg

He will be watching the process from a "Deluxe" vantage point. What a "Champ" he has been.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_098.jpg

Back to work. Lines are layout out and time to cut.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_099.jpg

Some final tweaking of the panels to accommodate the thickness of the fabric.
http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1275/amps_100.jpg

For the past two days, I've been converting the 1/2 inch and 1/4 inch plywood sheets into baffles and covers. My goal was to get the cabs all but covered with the fabric before the Lions teed up the ball tonight against the 49's. I came up a little bit short. I still need to attach the stringers to the side of the cab to hold the back panels on.

There is a process that must be followed and one of them is to have all of the holes drilled and t-nuts installed before the grill cloth is glued up. I use the real deal to measure the holes.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_101.jpg

Then I drill them into the baffle. I will have to countersink a bit before installing the t-nuts.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_102.jpg

I installed by 1/2 inch roundover bit and went at it with the cabs.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_103.jpg

I make sure the back top panel fits. The two oblong vent holes will allow air to flow over the tubes.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_104.jpg

One reason it took longer than I wanted is that I am using a hand held jigsaw and the pieces would always need to be tweaked and fine tuned to fit exactly in place. My wood rasp and hand planer were used frequently this weekend. I left a gap of approximately 3/32 between the pieces to account for the fabric. I might have to adjust this after I cover the first pieces. My fabric is medium weight.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_105.jpg

I originally planned on using 1/2 inch plywood for the deluxe back panels. the extra 1/4 inch would have pushed the chassis in too far and the input holes would not have lined up without modifying the top.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_106.jpg

I gave everything a good going over with my jitterbug and 100 grit sandpaper. Here is a group shot of the components.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_107.jpg

Still much to do on these amps but I really don't want to rush them.

What a great thread Mr Motor!
Thanks for all the info and the fun.

I picked up a quart of this at the Home Depot yesterday.

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/300/fc/fc68a3a7-c5df-47b2-bb2b-1a537a8d7e1e_300.jpghttp://www.monokote.com/accys/topr2100.jpg

I'm thinking it should work decent adhering the fabric to the pine. It's the process that might need a bit of tweaking. I would rather that I didn't have to apply any glue to the fabric. I do not want any soak through to the surface. I have used this type of product before with great results. But, It wasn't fabric I was sticking down, it was mylar. I would apply the glue to the wood, let dry while I cut my mylar sheet. Then I would tack the mylar to the wood with a MonoKote iron. When I was happy with the positioning, I would apply heat and pressure over the entire surface with the MonoKote iron until secured and smooth.

The other process I considered was to use a model aircraft "Dope" and apply the fabric wet (with water) I've done this a million times with Silkspan but once again, never with tweed. It will be interesting one way or another.

It's funny how some hobbies mimic other hobbies. You wouldn't think that model aeronautics and amp/guitar building would have so much in common.

hey motor city
I have tried contact cement a few times (evil solvent cement) and a (enviro and person friendly) water based cement; both worked quite well with my "tweeds". you do have to coat BOTH the fabric and the wood with that stuff for best results. I also used slighty watered down wood glue which also worked pretty well.
I think there is a more expensive 3M spray that works really well and has been described in this forum
really great work !!!
iggy

In the effort to save a whopping nickle or so per OT, I optioned to purchase my USA made SE Output Transformers from TubeDepot instead of Weber(even though I am using the Weber schematics and layouts). At first glance the transformer layouts look pretty much the same. But after looking at it again, I noticed that the primary and secondary wire colors are reversed between the two layouts. I've wired the secondaries accordingly per ohms but the primary leads have been wired according to color. Is there a difference between the two primary leads?
Is the RED wire from Weber the same as the RED wire from TubeDepot?

And what does that little black dot mean on the primary side of the Weber layout?

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/SE_ot_comp_zps6bf31a4c.jpg

In the effort to save a whopping nickle or so per OT, I optioned to purchase my USA made SE Output Transformers from TubeDepot instead of Weber(even though I am using the Weber schematics and layouts). At first glance the transformer layouts look pretty much the same. But after looking at it again, I noticed that the primary and secondary wire colors are reversed between the two layouts. I've wired the secondaries accordingly per ohms but the primary leads have been wired according to color. Is there a difference between the two primary leads?
Is the RED wire from Weber the same as the RED wire from TubeDepot?

And what does that little black dot mean on the primary side of the Weber layout?

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/SE_ot_comp_zps6bf31a4c.jpg

Motor,

I'm going to take a chance and say that indeed the wires are reversed. Classic Tone drawings show the dot and call it COM (common...ground?). If you get a squeal upon startup, reverse the two. This seems like a pretty 'common' problem... (sorry :wink:)

The OT's I've been using from www.musicalpowersupplies.com

are like the Tube Depot ones in respect to the blue and the red.

I must put blue to the B+ and Red to the Plate on the power tube.

This is the reverse of the Weber.

Like our friend Char advises, the two primarys (red and blue) can always be reversed in case you hear squealing.

There is no guarantee which way they go. You just have to experiment.

Now if you have a squealing, you could opt to swap wires on the speaker output jack instead with equal satisfaction.

Go light on the solder on those OT primary connections. They tend to be among the last. In any case, if you go light on the solder and leave a bit of wire to swap them if need be - you're better off for it.

I hooked up the OT opposite of the Weber layout and triple checked everything.

I powered it up and checked for any anomalies like smoke, funny smells, or bright red plates. Nothing out of the ordinary so far. I plugged in an Esquire and went at it. I like. Now I just need to cover the cab and bolt everything in.

The 6V6 tube has that violet glow. That's a good thing.

The sound is nice - 6SJ7 preamp tube is a pleasant surprise.

Remember this, it was going to be used on the wooden stands I built out of my x12 builds. it didnt fair too well on the stands but works great as a gasket for my 8 buck peavy speaker.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_108.jpg

mounted speaker to baffle usin t-nuts.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_109.jpg

just a friction fit right now. no glue or anything.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_110.jpg

green jewel seemed appropriate.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_111.jpg

from the top, two USA made trannies
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_112.jpg

inside
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_113.jpg

from the top right to the bottom right - inputs
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_114.jpg

volume knob on/off
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_115.jpg

jewel and fuse. the fuse leads are press fits so they can be removed to add the faceplate.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_116.jpg

recto
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_117.jpg

my russian 6v6
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_118.jpg

and the star of the project, a little metal 6sj7
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_119.jpg

bye for now - jb

Right On! The 5C1 is my favorite 5 watt amp so far.

For Push Pull, I'm a big fan of the simple Harvard Circuit with 5E3 Transformers.

The deluxe amps all started with some old school iron. The crest tranny is NOS and the OT is well . . . classictone.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_120.jpg

PT belly.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_121.jpg

A view from the top.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_122.jpg

The octal sockets are mounted from underside.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_123.jpg

Before I solder the preamp sockets I like to move the wires that do not get soldered out of the way. Teflon wire is tough but still will melt when touched by an errant soldering gun.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_124.jpg

The two preamp sockets are ready to go. Notice the wiring of the heaters is a bit different. I'm using the 6 volt 6n2p equivalent (Коэффициент усиления 100 (amplification factor 100)) to the 12ax7 tube. pins 4 and 5 are the heaters - pin 9 to ground. I also have some 6n1p preamp tubes (amplification factor 35) that are a closer match to a 12ay7. I will experiment with swapping these tubes in and out of v1 and v2.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_125.jpg

Here is the instructions for my Crest Power Trannies. Straight out of the 40's
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_126.jpg

All hooked up pins 1-10
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_127.jpg

switch - fuse - switch - jewel. well sorta a jewel. it's a jewel from the front side.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_128.jpg

recto and a 6v6
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_129.jpg

both power tubes
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_130.jpg

Four inputs.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_131.jpg

pots
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_132.jpg

This amp is really loud.

Is there a reason to have just a single attachment to the chassis? I would much rather have the bus supported on both ends, but if there is a reason to only have one end attached to the chassis I can add some additional support to the end of the bus where it will be soldered to the board. What is the reasoning behind this single attachment point.

thanx - jb

What is the reasoning behind this single attachment point.

Because you don't want a ground loop

I've read that ground loops are not good but now I understand why. There is an article on the valvewizard2.com website that explains it in easy to understand terms.

Grounding.pdf (http://valvewizard2.webs.com/Grounding.pdf)

Here are some excerpts from the article about bus grounding.

Bus grounding:
A popular method of grounding is the bus ground. This requires a single, heavy-gauge wire or bus wire* to be routed through the chassis, to which all the ground connections are made. This naturally encourages a long, thin layout, although it could be bent into any shape.

The path of the bus wire should follow the natural path of the circuit from the reservoir capacitor, to power amp (if present) to preamp, and all the ground connections should be made progressively along it, e.g., a power-amp ground should not be connected amongst the preamp ground connections.

To make the bus, tinned-copper wire can be bought on the roll, but a piece of stripped 24A or 32A solid-core mains wire is a cheap alternative in Britian. In the US, 14AWG solid-core may also be readily available. Ideally it should be tinned in a bath of solder to prevent corrosion, although this is not always within the means of hobbyists.

Many old amplifiers adopt a sort of pseudo bus ground by using the chassis as the bus (‘ground plane’ is perhaps a better term), but as discussed earlier, this is no longer considered acceptable practice. The chassis must not be imagined to be ‘one big fat wire’. It is simply a metal box which protects the user from the circuit, screens the circuit from interference, and provides a solid support for the construction; no current should flow in the chassis.

The bus wire should be connected to the chassis at one point only, at the input end of the amplifier

The Champsky is a weber 5f1 layout with a Russian powertube and Russian pre-amp tube.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_133.jpg

I read the valve wizard article on grounding and tried to follow the suggestions, keeping the assorted grounds in their positions on the bus relative to their positions in the circuit.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_134.jpg

The preamp tube can be either one of these. The 6n1p has a gain of 35 and the 6n2p a gain of 100.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_135.jpg

I am thinking of swapping out this cap with a smaller value like 5-10 uf to increase the highs a bit.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_136.jpg

The weber layout calls for 25uf - I think it sounds a little dark. darker than the 5c1 I just finished.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_137.jpg

I will be picking up some caps.
If you google "cathode bypass caps 5f1" you will see many discussions about why and what this 25uf 25v cap does.
I think I'll start with a 5uf and work my way down to .68uf.

tootles - jb

If you want more treble (allow less bass frequencies to pass), I have found that a 10uF is good here. A 1uf can be too much bass cut. YMMV.

Maybe the non-polarized variety of cap had something to do with it, but I really didn't notice any difference between the 2.2uf, 1uf, or no cap at all.
For now, I put the 25uf back in there. I will give David's suggestion a try today by putting a polarized 10uf cap in. The sound isn't really bad or anything, It just doesn't have the same chimey tone as it's brother the 5C1.

I replaced the cathode resister bypass cap (25uf) with a smaller cap (10uf) and am happy with the sound.

Note to self: - make sure the schematic and layout documents get edited before printing the back panel versions and tube charts.

I have all of the champs working. 2) 5F1's and 1) 5C1.
both of the 5F1's sound the same and have a decent volume.

The 5C1 sounds slightly different but has less volume.

the 5F1 circuit uses twin triode preamp
and the 5C1 uses Pentode preamp

The cathode bypass resister and capacitor (which I've been experimenting with) exist on the 5F1 circuit but are NOT part of the 5C1 circuit.

The 6sj7 pentode has a single cathode (pin 5) that goes to ground.
Do you think I might get a little more volume If I were to add the same cathode bypass resister and capacitor off of pin 5 before going to ground?

Dave, I understand you have recently fell in love with those little metal marvels and have been experimenting with them. have you tried this yet?

thanx - jb

IMHO, I don't think you can do that. Grid leak biases the tube by a different old school principle. By design, Cathode connects directly to zero volts.

You need one of the Deep Masters here to answer this query.

The first step getting the wire attached to the pin is to cut it the correct length.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_138.jpg

After removing the teflon coating, I twist the wires and tin both the pin and the wire. I check to see how they fit by holding the wire in place.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_139.jpg

With my finger still holding the wire in place, I give it a shot with my soldering gun until the two melt together and form a single "weld". this usually take about a second. Not of enough time to heat the wire enough to burn my finger, or melt the teflon coating.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_140.jpg

I like to solder the back pins first and make my way around to the front.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_141.jpg

The omnibus gets attached to the side of the chassis with a single attachment point.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_142.jpg

The power tranny center taps and the power cord ground get attached on the other side of the chassis, as far away from the preamp stage as possible.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_143.jpg

The 6sj7 pentode has a single cathode (pin 5) that goes to ground.
Do you think I might get a little more volume If I were to add the same cathode bypass resister and capacitor off of pin 5 before going to ground?


Cathode-biased output tube tone can be "round" if no bypass capacitor is used, or it can be "crisp" if a cap is used - sounding quite similar to a fixed-bias output stage. Basically because a bypass cap makes a tube work more efficiently.

So yes is the answer, you'll get more gain

Template, substrate, and veneer
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_144.jpg

Coat both the veneer and the substrate - let dry. *** btw, the following photos are just a reinactment. The can is sealed shut, the brush is dry, and the MonoKote tool has been turned off.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_145.jpg

You get one chance at this so make it count
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_146.jpg

After it is pressed down, I like to give it a hot treatment with my MonoKote tool to smooth out any irregularities
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_147.jpg

Now I can mark the veneer for the holes
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_148.jpg

I will cut out the holes tomorrow, maybe . . . depends on how the game is going.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_149.jpg

One note, I attach the fuse holder wires with push-on connectors. The fuse holder needs to come out of the front in order to remove. If the wires were solderd to it, I would never be able to get the faceplate on
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_150.jpg

Step 1. Get some Fabric.

Step 2. Stick it on.

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_196.jpg

just kidding. This is a photo of the last step. I've resampled some 46 photos of the entire process I used and will detail each step I used along with the materials and tools necessary to turn one of my naked 5F1 cabs into this.

tootles - jb

Very enterprising use of parts and excellent fabrication skills. Fun to behold.

There are plenty of ways to adhere fabric to wood. Some messy, some clean, some with clamps, some with rollers, and even some using vacuums and big vinyl bags. I like to be a bit spartan in my builds, I used scizzors, a pencil, a cheap disposable paint brush and my MonoKote sealing iron.

Glue. what to use? Tolex glue?, white glue, hide? how about something that I can heat up and not stink up the house. less than 10.00 for a quart from Lowes.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_151.jpg

Sides first. The material (6.25/yard) is rough cut. Some masking tape is applied to the top so I don't have a mess. I do not want any scraps of fabric or anything else stick to the cab so the best way is to not get any glue on the top or bottom. masking tape gives me a good solid line to work from. 3/4 inch sounds good to me.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_152.jpg

A liberal coat of contact cement on the wood only for now.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_153.jpg

Then I peel the tape off and let dry. I'll plug in my iron to get it hot while the cement dries.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_154.jpg

I place the correct sides of the fabric against the glue.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_155.jpg

The heat from the iron sticks the cement to the fabric while smoothing down the surface. move slowly with a bit of pressure.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_156.jpg

Once the piece is secured, snip snip.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_157.jpg

Cut all eight sides. 4 in front, 4 in back.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_158.jpg

Iron down the inside edges. Be careful not to allow any cement that will get onto the face of the iron to be transferred onto the fabric.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_159.jpg

Use the sharp edge of the iron to press the fabric onto the stringers in back. Complete the path one surface at a time.http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_160.jpg

Take a break, have a smoke. This next step is tricky. Find the apex of the corner and fold the fabric to it making a horizontal crease and use the iron to make it sharp.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_161.jpg

Unwrap the fold and peel away a little so you can get a good angle with your scizzors.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_162.jpg

snip snip
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_163.jpg

Now fold back the bottom half and make another horizontal fold that butts up to the top one and make another crease.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_164.jpg

Cut up to the apex again and use the iron to mate the two edges together.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_165.jpg

Trim to your 3/4inch glue line with a sharp razor blade and touch up any loose edges. - repeat seven more times and go have another smoke.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_166.jpg

The rest is pretty much the same. If you were successful with the sides, the top and bottom are a piece of cake.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_167.jpg

Measure your widths from seam to seam and give it a good crease.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_168.jpg

Coat backside with cement and let dry. If you don't want the cement to bleed through to the front, don't go past the line.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_169.jpg

Press together.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_170.jpg

Position and seal
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_171.jpg

The details are what makes it. That little scrap to the right was trimmed off to form a solid corner.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_172.jpg

Cut a line 45 degrees to your radius. Add a piece of scrap to the corner.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_173.jpg

A couple of dabs of cement will hold down the edges.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_174.jpg

Seal it down.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_175.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_176.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_177.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_178.jpg

Lots of glue on the side and on the fabric itself. If it soaks through it will not be seen.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_179.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_180.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_181.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_182.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_183.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_184.jpg

Epoxy will keep these from moving. I'm not going to rip off the grill later on to repair a t-nut that is stripped in the wood.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_185.jpg

Not too much cement, just enough to keep the grill from lifting off the baffle.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_186.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_187.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_188.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_189.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_190.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_191.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_192.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_193.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_194.jpg


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_195.jpg

The cab is ready for some type of finish. Maybe some shellac and lacquer. I will drill my holes after the finish is dry.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_196.jpg

I know it's not perfect, but for my first attempt it's just fine.

tootles - jb

back panel covering is cut a little oversized and the cement is applied to the face of the wood and the outer edges of the fabric.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/DSC05142_02.jpg

The sealing iron sticks the fabric to the wood.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/DSC05144_02.jpg

Curners are cut to look like this. My High School taught me this. I used to stretch a lot of oil painting canvases.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/DSC05146_02.jpg

The edges are sealed, then the corners
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/DSC05149_02.jpg

The oval openings are next. I make 4 cuts on each radius. I don't cut all the way in, but pretty close. I apply cement to the fabric and let dry. I guess my rule of thumb on where to apply the cement is, If you won't see a soak through, then apply cement to the fabric.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/DSC05152_02.jpg

more iron work on the edges
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/DSC05154_02.jpg

done
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/DSC05157_02.jpg

Before I screw it on, I'll need to bolt in the baffle and . .
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/DSC05224_02.jpg

. . hang the chassis.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/DSC05227_02.jpg

Now I can screw on the top panel
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/DSC05226_02.jpg

Then the bottom panel.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/DSC05229_02.jpg

A 5E3 and a 5C1 with OldGloryCaster
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/DSC05234_02.jpg

While preparing my schematic and layout stickers for the back panel, I noticed that the filter caps are grounded along with the rest of the circuit to the same place. Since I decided to use the Omnibus method, Should I ground all 3 big caps to the same source, or should I split them up and ground only the 16 uf cap to the PT and the other two to the Omnibus? This amp has more hum to it than the 5F1s and less volume too.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/amps_ground.jpg

tootles - jb

Send the first two to ground on the PT side.

Ground the third one, which serves the preamp/signal side on that side.

Some of those NOS Crest PT's make some hum. Did Gary tell you to put some silicone glue on the edges? There is a tab area that creates the vibrating surfaces.

Thanx David, I will split up the trio.

Gary did not suggest putting silicone anywhere. Do you mean across the laminates or between the PT and the chassis.

Once I reduce the hum. I might see if I can get more volume outta this one.

I haven't had a lot of time for troubleshooting the brood, mostly been covering cabs when I get a spare moment.

thanx - jb

I will include one of these and the schematic for each amp. hopefully they will never be needed. Just the 12ax7 socket would be enough to drive a tech crazy if they didn't know it was rewired for a 6n2p.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/5c1_layout_2.jpg
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/5f1_layout_2.jpg

If anyone is bored on this Monday, have I got the perfect project for you.

I mean you will have to be really really bored.

You can always, compare these layout and schematics to see if they mesh to each other.

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/5c1_schematic.jpg
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/5f1_schematic.jpg
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/5c3_layout.jpg
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/5e3_layout.jpg
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/5c3_schematic.jpg
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/5e3_schematic.jpg

Great build thread,thanks for posting this with all the pics!

Thanx David, I will split up the trio.

Gary did not suggest putting silicone anywhere. Do you mean across the laminates or between the PT and the chassis.

Once I reduce the hum. I might see if I can get more volume outta this one.

I haven't had a lot of time for troubleshooting the brood, mostly been covering cabs when I get a spare moment.

thanx - jb

MCT. They all look great btw!
Did you go with stock filter value. I heard a dramatic difference bumping up the 1st filter cap.

MCT. They all look great btw!
Did you go with stock filter value. I heard a dramatic difference bumping up the 1st filter cap.

Yes, Stock values on the filter caps for all 4 layouts.
I started with the weber layout so that is what I mean by stock.

The only cap value I changed from the original weber values was the bypass cap on the 5F1 from 25uf to 10uf.

tootles - jb

The sound is nice - 6SJ7 preamp tube is a pleasant surprise.

I have a Champion 600 reissue that has been converted to a 5C1 (kept the SS rectifier). I have been using a 6SH7 tube instead of the 6SJ7, it sounds a little warmer and slightly more gain. The amp has grid leak bias and this seems to be a very touch sensitive combination - so much so that I have stopped playing with a pick and just use my fingers. The only problem with the 6SH7 is the tubes I have been getting tend to go microphonic on me. (this might be because I tend to crank the amp up to 12) But I think it is a worthwhile sonic experiment to try the 6SH7.

OG_Stike,

I did a little research on the 6SJ7 vs 6SH7 in a pre-amp stage and see that there are others in agreement with you. Then I thought I would see how much these tubes cost. The first search yielded a price of 30.00 - not gonna happen. The second (ebay) search returned a much more acceptable cost of 2.62 shipped free. I bought two. They should be in my mailbox next week. The tubes I ordered are metal envelope.

If anyone is bored on this Monday, have I got the perfect project for you.

I mean you will have to be really really bored.

You can always, compare these layout and schematics to see if they mesh to each other.

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/5c1_schematic.jpg

Your 5C1 supply isn't the same as the Fender one. (You have the 6V6 plate and screen coming off the wrong supply nodes).

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8344/8272752334_80626e13dc_b.jpg

Tubeswell,

I guess you must have been really really really bored. But you are actually 100% correct. the fender schematic is different from the Weber schematic I started with. So I had to go and look at the Weber layout page too. sure enough, that is wrong too. I've since edited my local docs to reflect the correct schematic and wiring layout, Weber can do whatever they want with theirs. And just when I thought everything on the internet is true.
I Know exactly what they did. They created the 5F1 docs first then saved them as 5C1 docs and edited them. they missed moving the connections from OT and pin 4 of 6v6.

They also left point A in the schematic. there is no point A on a 5C1


Schematic -
pin 4 on 6v6 now goes to point C (was B)
OT now goes to point B (was A)

Layout -
OT goes to junction between 500 and 25k resisters (was left of 500 ohm resister)
pin 4 goes to point right of 25k resister (was at junction between 500 and 25k resisters)

I am going to move the two wires on the actual amp when I get home from the office today. I wonder if this change will increase the volume and decrease the amount of hum?

Thanx again tubeswell

Tubeswell,

I guess you must have been really really really bored.

:wink:

I am going to move the two wires on the actual amp when I get home from the office today. I wonder if this change will increase the volume and decrease the amount of hum?

Thanx again tubeswell

A choke there will work a lot better than a resistor in that Pii filter FWIW (in terms of ripple hum reduction)

i did the wiring edit and then plugged it in. hum - gone. volume better but still not as strong as the 5F1s. maybe the 6SH7s will help. I'll know in a week.

Makes me wonder though. Are the other Weber layouts I'm using accurate?

Maybe I need to take a good close look at the 5C3 pdfs, and compare them to the actual fender diagrams.

With a CLC filter you'll have more B+

I took some voltages after I corrected my wiring.
Do these values seem in the ballpark?
I'm using a 325-0-325 PT that was made in the 50's.

node 1 - 379v
node 2 - 361v
node 3 - 286v

6V6
pin 3 plate - 351v
pin 4 grid #2 (screen) - 288v
pin 8 cathode and beam plates - 17v

6SJ7
pin 6 grid #2 (screen) - 18v
pin 8 plate - 126v

There is virtually no hum.
The amp has a real nice tone, especially with my ash esquire.

I sent CJ an e-mail pointing out the "differences" between the weber 5c1 design and the actual Fender design. They are going to check it out when they get a chance. here is what I sent them.

After seeking expertise in one of the many TDPRI amp building threads,
a gentleman from the other side of the world brought this to my attention.

In the Weber documents, the OT is wired to the b+ node 1 and
pin 4 of the 6V6 is wired to node 2.
according to the fender original design, OT should be wired to node 2
and pin 4 of the 6V6 should go to node 3.

When I made this change to my 5c1 build, all hum disappeared and
the gain increased a bit.

I suggest that anyone who has built a 5c1 using the Weber schematic and layout, or anyone who modified a 5f1 into a 5c1 take a good close look at these two items and adjust your build accordingly. I googled 5c1 hum and found dozens of folks out there who have used these pdfs and are having issues with hum. - I did find one thread that was written in 2009 that made this discovery with an explanation of why.

from el34world.com

After studying the original Fender 5C1 layout and schematic, I noted that the red lead from the OT connected at the second filter cap. The layout I was using from Weber had the red OT lead connected to the B+ input cap (first filter cap).

The 5F1 Champ connects the output transformer to the first filter cap, but uses a 16uF cap. You still get better filtering with connecting to the 2nd cap.

All of the Champs used the same number of filter caps, but the 5F1 put the attached the screen to a different filter cap than the plate (further downstream). In some cases, that results in less hum because the screen is fed from a cleaner source. The screen is somewhat more sensitive to hum than the plate.

Once again a big thanx to tubeswell for bringing this to my attention.

Motor City and Tubeswell,

Thanks for clarification of the differences between the original Fender and the Weber perversion, er, style. :wink:

I got my 5C1 going pretty good, but hum is evident. It's already pretty loud, but no hum and a bit more volume is always welcome! I think I'll try this out, my friends. :grin:

with a 350-0-350 PT and a classic tone deluxe OT
5y3 recto NOS

b+ 350
node 2 - 314
node 3 - 239

v1 6n2p
pin 1 - 149
pin 3 - 1.3
pin 6 - 151
pin 8 - 1.3

v2 6n2p
pin 1 - 148
pin 3 - 1.2
pin 6 - 183
pin 7 - 3.1
pin 8 - 46

v3 6v6
pin 3 - 341
pin 4 - 313
pin 8 - 18


v4 6v6
pin 3 - 341
pin 4 - 313
pin 8 - 18

do any of these numbers jump out at you?

The bias of a 6n2p looks to be similar to a 12AX7...

http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/pdf/vm345.pdf

So the volts on V2 pin 7 and 8 are an issue I think. Not wired back to front are they?



Edit: the V2 cathode pin 8 is in the ball park

two champ builds using the Russian power and pre-amp tubes
5f1 - a
b+ 363
node 2 - 313
node 3 - 265

v1
P1 - 158
P3 - 1.5
P6 - 161
P8 - 1.3

v2
P3 - 349
P4 - 310
P8 - 19

----------------------

5f1 - b
b+ 357
node 2 - 313
node 3 - 266

v1
P1 - 164
P3 - 1.5
P6 - 161
P8 - 1.3

v2
P3 - 344
P4 - 313
P8 - 19

Great thread. Thumbs up!

Great work on posting photos of the tweed covering. It looks very good. I will use this as a reference in the future. Thanks.

Technically this would cause a null pointer exception and everything would grind to a halt.
There is no such thing as a twin triode octal tube in a champ 5F1.

I reworked my layout and schematic to accommodate an octal socket.

I will have to rotate the octal socket 180 degrees so pins 7 and 8 will be located in the approximate area of old pins 4 and 5 of the 6n2p.
I don't think my heater wires would have been long enough otherwise.

Now what I need to do is come up with a nameplate that is a little different.
I still have only the same three characters to pick from.

hmm . . .
I guess it will be one of these. F15 1F5 51F F51 15F

F15 wins out

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/5f1_octal_schematic_zps6363d9dc.jpg
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/5f1_octal_layout_zps7aa6a633.jpg

I'm looking forward to hearing how you like this build! I recently completed an all octal head based on the 5E1 circuit (I had an appropriate choke in the parts bin, so why not use it!). I went with 12 volt tubes though (12SL7, 12V6) since they are much cheaper for NOS.

You've probably heard that the octals can be a bit microphonic and that's something I have found to be true; a couple of my RCA 12SL7's ring like a bell when the chassis is tapped. This isn't really a big deal for me since mine is built as a head and as such has pretty good vibration isolation but it might be more of a problem in a combo.

Over all I think the SL7 is a nice choice in the champ circuit. At least, I like the way mine turned out :)

"The F15" has a nice ring to it :)

After modifying one of the 5f1 amps and bolting in an octal and plugging a 6SL7 into it, I fired it up and took some readings.

node 1 - 359v
node 2 - 312v
node 3 - 260v

6SL7
Plate 2 - 150v
Cathode 2 - 1.5v
Plate 1 - 144v
Cathode 1 - 1.5v

6V6
Plate - 346v
Grid 2 - 312v
Cathode - 19v

How do you like it?

I've done some like this, but I adhered to the Valco Spectator design with 220K plate resistors and 2.2K cathode resistors.

They sure sound good that way. I reckon yours sounds good too.

How do you like it?

I've done some like this, but I adhered to the Valco Spectator design with 220K plate resistors and 2.2K cathode resistors.

They sure sound good that way. I reckon yours sounds good too.

David,

Will increasing the values of the four resisters change the tone all that much?
I've already changed the bypass cap from 25uf to 10uf. that gave me a little more highend tone. The volume with the 6SL7 is slightly less than the other 5f1 amp. Right now it seems that the tone is best with the guitar volume turned down and the amp volume turned up past 1/2 way. I'm always up for a mod or two, especially when there is something to learn.

At least I know what resisters you are talking about. That in itself is a change from last year at this time.

Amp circuits I have seen which use the 6SL7 preamp tube have all had the 220K or 270K plate resistors which increases output over the 100K plate resistors. And the 2.2k cathode resistors which reduces output over the 1.5K cathode resistors.

That's the formula that the designers came up with for that tube.

Now that you have yours set up with the Champ you should try the 220K or 270K plate resistors and a 2.2K Rk and 3.7K Rk to see if there is any difference.

http://www.ampbooks.com/home/classic-circuits/fender-champ-5e1-preamp/

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/haircuttingcowboy/valco_amp_schematic_510-11_72dpi_zps6d5ea427.jpg

This is what I'll change from the 5f1 schematic.

r4 - 2.2k
r5 - 220k
r6 - 3.9k
r7 - 220k

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/F15_schematic.jpg

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/F15_octal_layout.jpg

I'll swing by the shack today after work. They have 220k 2.2k and 3.9k resisters in stock. I'll desolder the carbon comp resisters and label them for a later build.

tootles - jb

The GA-5 Skylark (Gibson's Champ) uses a 2.2K Cathode Resistor and a 47K Negative Feeback (NFB) Resistor in a voltage divider set up like the 5F1.

If you use NFB with the 3.9K cathode Resistor, use the 47K instead of the 22K. The 47K works better to make the amp louder.

http://www.el34world.com/projects/images/GA5.jpg

http://www.tonecentral.net/gearpics/homebrew/Valco_Supro_spectator.jpg

The Supro Valco Spectator uses a 3900 ohm cathode resistor on V1 Pin 6.
With no NFB.

These are three great layouts that can be done easily with a 5F1 Chassis: The Champ, The GA-5 and The Valco Spectator. Different preamp tubes can be utililized for more fun. With or without NFB.

I built one recently with 2.3k on each cathode of a 6n2p - one bypassed with a 22uF cap, no NFB, 220K plate resistors, 220k grid. This is very good.

If you use NFB with the 3.9K cathode Resistor, use the 47K instead of the 22K. The 47K works better to make the amp louder.

Louder is always better in my opinion.

I will drop a 47k resister into r13 tomorrow after work.


I just love going into radio shack. They always swarm me before I even get halfway in the door. When I tell them I'm after the passive stuff in back they kinda give me a funny look and follow. The high school kid got himself a brief lesson on Ohm's law this afternoon. Heck I don't even think he understood the "k" in 220k come to think of it. Oh well, our future is in good hands. Do they even teach electronics in school anymore? I bet they eliminated that along with metalshop and woodshop programs. I'm glad I grew up in the 60's and 70's.

Do they even teach electronics in school anymore? I bet they eliminated that along with metalshop and woodshop programs. I'm glad I grew up in the 60's and 70's.

No but they teach crime scene investigation.:roll:

It looks like my F15 is going to end up being a 3-way blend of the Gibby GA5, the Valco Spectator, and the Fender Champ. There is one thing that none of the original designs use and that is the 10uf cathode bypass cap. Gibby used a 20uf, valco used 25uf, and fender didn't use any (Weber 5f1 does though). I'll keep it at 10uf for now. If I swap it for the original 25uf then I will have gone full circle with this amp. It was the first thing to get modded.

I can hardly wait for Spring. That is when I'll be finishing up the two remaining push/pull designs. I might have to take a rain check on the build challenge this year. This amp stuff is just too much fun and 8 weeks is 8 weeks. I just have to figure what to do with the 8000 matchsticks I've been stockpiling since last May.

tootles - jb

Some of those old manufacturers probably slipped in some different value caps if they ran out of the standard values. These are the amps with special mojo.

I swapped out the 22k with a 47k NFB resister and powered it up.
Plenty loud and clean for the first half - very little hum.
It starts to break up around 1:00 with my esquire on full volume. Pretty much full breakup around 4:00. I like turning the amp up to full (5:00) and regulating the amount of breakup using the volume on the guitar. It seems there is a tad more highs with the amp turned all the way up and the guitar turned down vs. the guitar turned to full and the amp half way.

I didn't play any humbuckers through it yet. I'll play one of my humbucker guitars through it on Thursday. Done making noise for today and Wednesday is Curling night.

Thank you David for the lessons and suggestions. The GA-5 and Valco schematics were very helpful and informative. I even took a peek at the Hammonator schematic for the heck of it. I'm starting to understand why it looks the the way it does.

till next time tootles - jb

I just put an order into Gary for another 6 power trannys

I just gotta build me a Valco Spectator with this one.
270-0-270V @120MA, 5V @3A, 6.3VCT @3.5A,

the others - not sure - Suggestions?

360-0-360V @140MA, 5v @3a, 6.3v @4A, 6.3 1.5A,
350-0-350V @180MA, 320CT 65MA, 5V 3A, 6.3V 12A,
340-0-340V @150MA, 5V 3A, 6.3VCT 2.7A, 3 PRI TAPS,
340-0-340V @110MA, 5V @3A, 6.3V @2.5A,
350-0-350V @90MA, 5VCT @3A, 6.3VCT @3.5A,

Maybe something from this lot of Valco Supro Schematics (http://www.valcoamp.com/forum/categories/valco-schematics/listForCategory). I'd like to do a push pull 6V6 but with only a single channel. 1 tone and 1 volume. 8 ohms.

tootles - jb

I've gone and done it. I stumbled into a Valco amp forum and
came across a bunch of schematics and stuff. The one that caught my fancy, other than the spectator was something called '52 National Deluxe.
this is the schematic URL - http://www.valcoamp.com/forum/attachment/download?id=6373316%3AUploadedFile%3A17433.
Looks doable and for the most part could be constructed inside a 5#3 chassis and cab. but here is the dilema. there is a different recto. a 6X5. I've read a little about them and it seems that many folks would rather use a 5 volt recto. I would too. Would you go ahead and use a 5Y3, or one of the other more popular varieties. or would you go stay the course and use the 6X5.

One more question. that 250 ohm resister that mounts to pins 8 of the 6L6 power tubes is unrated. should this be a 5 watter?

Thanki You and good curling - jb

I like the looks of that schem. Mostly because I'm harvesting almost all of those parts from an old mono amp right at the moment, but I'd be looking at a different rectifier setup.

The transformer I've got has been running 2 5u4s so it has plenty of juice.

The F15 (octal champ 5f1) sounds nice but occasionally I hear what I would describe as an oscillating type of tone on certain chords. I am wondering if this is the 6SL7 tube misbehaving and becoming microphonic. It resembles the tone you would get by blowing into a glass coke bottle. My question is to you is . . would some type of dampening device - silicone ring - make a difference. And if it would, where on the tube would this ring be placed. I'm thinking the center portion would not be a good placement. maybe two rings, one at 40% from one end and another 30% from the other end.

I might swing by the hardware store and see what they have. I think 23mm is the diameter i need.

tootles - jb

motor_city_tele - did you ever get to try a 6SH7 in the 5C1?

motor_city_tele - did you ever get to try a 6SH7 in the 5C1?

Yes, I did. Not much difference between the 6sj7 and 6sh7.

If the the internal 8ohm speaker is always connected, what should the minimum impedance load of the external speaker cab be?



from the '57 deluxe owner's manual

J INTERNAL SPEAKER JACK—Plug-in connection for
the 8Ω internal speaker. A speaker must always be
connected at this jack when the amplifier is ON. A
speaker impedance load of 8Ω should be used to avoid
distortion or damage to the amplifier.

K EXTENSION SPEAKER OUTPUT—Plug-in connection
for an external speaker. This jack is wired in parallel with
the INTERNAL SPEAKER JACK {J} and affects the speaker
impedance load. Use 8Ω minimum total.

Well, since it's wired in parallel you're decreasing resistance so if you add another 8ohm speaker you're at 4 ohms.

Most fenders can handle that 2:1 mismatch, but not forever at high volumes.

If you normally wanted to use an extension in tandem with the internal speaker you could, say, put a 16ohm speaker in the combo and run another 16ohm in the extension, which would bring you to 8ohms total but double your cone area.

voltages seem on the money. just a tad bit of hum with both volume pots turned all the way down.

node 1 360
node 2 318
node 3 226

V-1 6n1p
pin 1 117
pin 3 2.03
pin 6 100
pin 8 2.03

V-2 6n2p
pin 1 137
pin 3 1.22
pin 6 176
pin 7 2.95
pin 8 43

V-3 6V6
pin 3 347
pin 4 314
pin 8 19

V-4 6V6
pin 3 349
pin 4 314
pin 8 19

Could you please tell me the wattage rating of the 5C1 and the 5F1?

The 5C1 generally produces lower output than the 5F1. The 5C1 has one stage of preamplification while the 5F1 has two stages of preamplification.

Modern Transformers have the effect of increased power output in both of these amplifiers.

What wattage are you seeking? You can make either model more or less powerful depending on certain criteria.

I want to put one together for the experience of doing it. I want the simplest construction that will give at least 5 watts.

The simplest is the 5C1 but not by much. They're both simple and they'll both give 5 watts easily.

They both sound great, but different. The 5C1 is somewhat less powerful when build according to traditional specs, but it does offer a wonderful tone with an earlier breakup.

BTW, I offer kits to build either model.

Hmm, how about later breakup?

Later breakup occurs in the 5F1. More power = later breakup.

The 5F1 is probably what I want. No rush though, I will have to save up a bit before I tackle the project.
Thanks Dave.

Does a 12AX7 require a tube shield when used in a 5F1?

Does a 12AX7 require a tube shield when used in a 5F1?

Not really, but it helps.

If the socket pins are tight, the tube will stay in, but with a shield, it can't vibrate loose.

There are a two main types of 9 pin sockets. One has a base which permits the addition of a shield which screws onto bayonet pins.

There is a spring inside the shield which provides tension against the base so that everything is snug.

The other is a flat style which does not faciliate a screw on shield.

The other use for a shield is to block RF interference and to help prevent microphonics.

Thanks Dave.

It's already june and I haven't done a lick of amp work (or guitar work) since the snow melted. I did purchase a brake and experimented with some thin steel. I also located a huge sheet of military grade aluminum that showed up while organizing the folks garage. I will be bending up a few deluxe chassis out of this sheet of aluminum. for those interested, i made up a couple simple templates that I will be using for hole and bend references. You can print them 100% on 11x17 stock.

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/deluxe_chassis_5e3_zps440d873c.gif

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/brzys/amps/deluxe_chassis_5c3_zpsd4b2859c.gif