Bill Lawrence keystones

Just got the shipping notification for my keystones!! On his wiring section Bill says he starts with 500k pots and .022uf caps even for his single coils then adds a resistor if it needs to be adjusted. Any of you Keystone guys out there use 500k pots instead of 250k? Was just going to get 250k CTS pots but I do have 375k Fender pots I could use.

I've used the Keystones with 250K pots, no problems, plenty bright. The .022uf caps are fine also. The Fezz/Greene wiring mod also works well with these pups, caps, and pots.

I use 250k pots with .047 caps. They sound great!

I prefer 250k with a .022uf cap with Keystones. I had 500k at first and ended up changing them to 250k's.

I just ordered a set of Keystones...planning to use the stock 250k pots.

I'd try the 375Ks. I've only got one set of Keystones, and they're in my 12 string Telecaster. Between the Telecaster twang and the 12 string jangle, 250K was the only sane way to go.

Just got the shipping notification for my keystones!! On his wiring section Bill says he starts with 500k pots and .022uf caps even for his single coils then adds a resistor if it needs to be adjusted. Any of you Keystone guys out there use 500k pots instead of 250k? Was just going to get 250k CTS pots but I do have 375k Fender pots I could use.

Bill uses 500k pots so he can drop the values down to a variety of values during testing. The Keystones are free of shorts that destroy highend. If you've never used them or Bill's other products (which also have superior highs vs other options on the market), you're going to want to stay with 250k pots and even possibly put some time into readjusting your amp (and likely turning down the treble!). Be sure to set up with the nickel method for the proper bridge and neck heights.

250K and .022µF works for me.

Thanks all for the info. They just came in today. Gonna try and drop 'em in this weekend. Going from GFS pups to Bill Lawrence. I'm thinking there will be a slight improvement!:mrgreen:

Did ja get a 4 way switch too ??

I'll pick that up when I get the 250k CTS pots.

Good move !!

I got my Keystones - took about a week. I love em already! To me they sound like a Telecaster is supposed to sound. They replaced EMG-T's, which I still think are cool, but definitely don't have the "vintage Tele" mojo. The Keystones do, but they are also clear and smooth, so I'm not missing the EMG's at all.

250k CTS pots. Next mod is going to be the 4-way switch.

Keystones are clear with a bell-like clarity.

Love Keystones, clear quiet sweet sounds. In my partscaster have 250 CTS w/ .033 cap, sounds great.

I am currently rebuilding my Tele that has Keystones in it and 250k pots. I like them alot but I am a bit of a treble junkie so when I put it back together I plan to use 300k pots and possibly convert the tone pot to no load. I imagine most people like them as is with 250k however.

Anyone running 300k or 500k pots with their Keystones?

Love Keystones, clear quiet sweet sounds. In my partscaster have 250 CTS w/ .033 cap, sounds great.

mine does also, in a Classic Vibe pine body...sounds great

I am currently rebuilding my Tele that has Keystones in it and 250k pots. I like them alot but I am a bit of a treble junkie so when I put it back together I plan to use 300k pots and possibly convert the tone pot to no load. I imagine most people like them as is with 250k however.

Anyone running 300k or 500k pots with their Keystones?

I'm wondering of 300K would do a heck of a lot, as far as brighter ??

May be in the middle would be better....375 ?

http://www.allparts.com/Fender-375K-Pot-p/007-3133-000.htm

250k, 4 way, .01 piw and pu's set real low

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-o0Q60fc2Gwg/T770jTU8DRI/AAAAAAAABTU/QumHQnZCzYo/s400/IMG_1258.JPG

250K and .022µF works for me.

That a 4 way and the Greene/Parka for me. No lack of highs to my ear. 500k would be a bit bright methinks.

I'm wondering of 300K would do a heck of a lot, as far as brighter ??

May be in the middle would be better....375 ?

http://www.allparts.com/Fender-375K-Pot-p/007-3133-000.htm

You may be right. I didn't know there was 375k. I'll try that one instead. Thanks!

250K, .047, and a 3 way switch. I think a fourth switch position would be too much Keystone goodness for me to stand. I have my limits.

You may be right. I didn't know there was 375k. I'll try that one instead. Thanks!

You're way better off flipping on a bright switch, turning up treble at the amp, or turning down the bass. You might also want to try low capacitance cable (Bill sells it) or playing with height adjustments. Increasing the pot value is not an effective way of getting more highs and will mostly accentuate the resonance (which is a result of the pickup's inductance and the cable capacitance) and can sound awful if it's too sharp or in the wrong range, especially on the bridge pickup.

You're way better off flipping on a bright switch, turning up treble at the amp, or turning down the bass. You might also want to try low capacitance cable (Bill sells it) or playing with height adjustments. Increasing the pot value is not an effective way of getting more highs and will mostly accentuate the resonance (which is a result of the pickup's inductance and the cable capacitance) and can sound awful if it's too sharp or in the wrong range, especially on the bridge pickup.

If resonance was an issue, would Bill have considered this when he recommended using 500k pots?

What is the main difference in a cap as far as tone / volume? Excuse my ignorance but what makes the difference btwn a .022, .033,.047 etc. - and do 500k pots make it more bright? I know the norn is 250K + .022 - does a .033 give you an edge?

Oh boy here we go.

In short the cap doesn't really have much of an effect when the pot is at 10. The cap comes to play at about 6 and lower. The higher the value the cap the MORE highs that will be removed as you turn the knob, making the tone darker.

So a .022,.033,.047 won't really make that much of a difference for the most part, wide open.

A 500 K volume pot will make the tone brighter and more open than a 250.

If resonance was an issue, would Bill have considered this when he recommended using 500k pots?

He didn't recommend 500k pots. He uses 500k pots personally and uses an additional resistor to get a value that matches the pickup exactly to suit his needs. The Keystones have no shorts and use fine wire, making them exceptionally resistant to eddy currents (which would make them harsh/edgy/muddy and are in most pickups to varying extents). They have better highs than the vast majority of Fender-style pickups and are meant as drop-ins - it'd be quite unusual to need 500k pots for personal taste, which wouldn't have the primary effect of increasing the highend's general volume. Amp controls are better suited for that job.

Oh boy here we go.

In short the cap doesn't really have much of an effect when the pot is at 10. The cap comes to play at about 6 and lower. The higher the value the cap the MORE highs that will be removed as you turn the knob, making the tone darker.

So a .022,.033,.047 won't really make that much of a difference for the most part, wide open.

A 500 K volume pot will make the tone brighter and more open than a 250.

Thanks for the heads up sjtalon :wink:

I'm using 500k pots with my keystones and a .022 capacitor. I can't say how it has effected tone bc I've not used any other pots with these pickups, but I don't like the fact that as I roll up and down the pot there is little sensitivity until you get toward the maximum side of the turn. In other words, about 3/4 of the turn has almost no effect on the volume or tone. They are new pots from stewmac, I believe.

Oh boy here we go.

In short the cap doesn't really have much of an effect when the pot is at 10. The cap comes to play at about 6 and lower. The higher the value the cap the MORE highs that will be removed as you turn the knob, making the tone darker.

So a .022,.033,.047 won't really make that much of a difference for the most part, wide open.

A 500 K volume pot will make the tone brighter and more open than a 250.

Derek knows of what he speaks. With the usual audio taper pots, the tone cap comes into play at more like ~4. Above that, the pot serves to round off the peak of the resonance, which is determined by (in most cases) the cable capacitance interacting with the pickup inductance. It functions the same as changing the gain on a LP filter on a parametric equalizer. Different pickups have different Q factors (bandwidth at the resonance). Higher value pots will just produce a higher and sharper peak at the resonance. AFAIK, 250k pots are the standard for Keystones. If you use 500k's, you'll probably need to keep the tone knob down to ~7, so they don't sound too sharp. As well, I believe the taper won't be quite as smooth/linear as with 250k pots.

Just finished a new build,installed Keystones with 250k pots and .022 cap. It sounds amazing,the Keystones are very clear and focused,Higgs F. Boson hits the nail right on the head, "It sounds like a Tele should"

It makes me want to try some of his other pickup models.

I believe the L280/L290's are closest in voicing to the Keystones, while being completely noiseless.

500k volume pots for me in my Tele's...I prefer the extra spank and sparkle.

Love Keystones, clear quiet sweet sounds. In my partscaster have 250 CTS w/ .033 cap, sounds great.

My experience with them is exactly the same. Very smooth and very transparent. They're a nice compliment to the tone I get out of my Nocasters in two other Tele's. The install in my CVC is the same as TeleRichie's. 250k pot w/.033 cap but with a 4-way and a high pass filter on the volume pot.

When I installed my keystones, I used 250k pots with a .022uf cap. I thought they sounded a little on the bright side and a bit thin. Was kinda bummed given their reputation. I followed the height adjustment suggestion on Bill's website but still wasn't quite happy with the tone. I swapped out the .022uf cap with a .047uf and that seemed to smooth things out. I still need to play with the height a bit but it sounds allot better now. I "know" the cap should not effect the sound with the tone pot at 10 but my ears tell me something different.

The Keystones are definitely sensitive PuPs. Before I usually wouldn't touch the volume or tone pots but now I find I need to turn the volume down a bit and play with the tone controls on my amp to coax the sound I want. A bit of work up front but I'm hoping it will pay off. Still in the tweaking phase.

I believe the L280/L290's are closest in voicing to the Keystones, while being completely noiseless.

Interesting. Wonder if his humbuckers would sound good in a Les Paul. (not for metal).

Interesting. Wonder if his humbuckers would sound good in a Les Paul. (not for metal).

What do you play? The short answer is yes :razz: His L90s can be thought of as Bill's take on the PAF, completely redesigned for perfect clarity and beautiful highend while retaining the smooth attack characteristic desired by humbucker users. His other full-sized humbuckers are also worth looking into, but the L90s are my favorite.

When I installed my keystones, I used 250k pots with a .022uf cap. I thought they sounded a little on the bright side and a bit thin. Was kinda bummed given their reputation. I followed the height adjustment suggestion on Bill's website but still wasn't quite happy with the tone. I swapped out the .022uf cap with a .047uf and that seemed to smooth things out. I still need to play with the height a bit but it sounds allot better now. I "know" the cap should not effect the sound with the tone pot at 10 but my ears tell me something different.

The Keystones are definitely sensitive PuPs. Before I usually wouldn't touch the volume or tone pots but now I find I need to turn the volume down a bit and play with the tone controls on my amp to coax the sound I want. A bit of work up front but I'm hoping it will pay off. Still in the tweaking phase.

What amp are you using and how are you setting it? What did you have in before?

What amp are you using and how are you setting it? What did you have in before?

I have a Fender Frontman 25R practice amp. The PuPs I replaced were whatever came with the guitar, an Xaviere Tele from Guitar Fetish.

I have a Fender Frontman 25R practice amp. The PuPs I replaced were whatever came with the guitar, an Xaviere Tele from Guitar Fetish.

Have you had better success with other guitars and your amp? I know there are plenty of reasons an entry level amp would be the best for a player, but I've never had much luck getting one to convey what a guitar or electronics are capable of. If you think of the treble as a boost (which it is), it might make you feel more comfortable if you end up setting the treble on 2-3 but would usually feel like something is wrong. The Keystones don't have their highend destroyed by shorts in the coils and the Tele neck cover, as many pickups do, so they simply need less boost in the treble than most pickups. The tonestack has to accomodate the muddiest distortion pickup as well, so it's okay if you find most of the range of adjustment you like is in a relatively limited portion of the taper.

Also Rockhead, those Xaviere Tele's come with 500k pots, unless you replaced them. Perhaps you hadn't properly wired the cap the first time? Did you use the same cable to the amp with each cap? Perhaps the capacitance of your cable is tuning the pickup resonance to a particularly sensitive and bright place? What is the capacitance of your cable? Perhaps you are just used to darker sounding pickups?

Even if there was a difference with the the tone at 10 between the caps due to resistance leakage, it would be so subtle as to be insignificant. Theory and many tests have shown that to be the case. Try an A/B with a wire wrapped over the cap leads. Connect/disconnect it with the tone at 10, and see if you can hear any remotely significant difference.

Have you had better success with other guitars and your amp? I know there are plenty of reasons an entry level amp would be the best for a player, but I've never had much luck getting one to convey what a guitar or electronics are capable of. If you think of the treble as a boost (which it is), it might make you feel more comfortable if you end up setting the treble on 2-3 but would usually feel like something is wrong. The Keystones don't have their highend destroyed by shorts in the coils and the Tele neck cover, as many pickups do, so they simply need less boost in the treble than most pickups. The tonestack has to accomodate the muddiest distortion pickup as well, so it's okay if you find most of the range of adjustment you like is in a relatively limited portion of the taper.

I knew when I bought the Keystones that they would require more attention to height adjustment and tone control settings. I just thought they sounded too bright with the .022uf cap. My practice amp for sure isn't the best amp to use to determine the quality of the keystones. I have an old Peavy Deuce that was given to me that needs to be repaired. Can't wait to hear what they sound like through the Peavy.

Also Rockhead, those Xaviere Tele's come with 500k pots, unless you replaced them. Perhaps you hadn't properly wired the cap the first time? Did you use the same cable to the amp with each cap? Perhaps the capacitance of your cable is tuning the pickup resonance to a particularly sensitive and bright place? What is the capacitance of your cable? Perhaps you are just used to darker sounding pickups?

Even if there was a difference with the the tone at 10 between the caps due to resistance leakage, it would be so subtle as to be insignificant. Theory and many tests have shown that to be the case. Try an A/B with a wire wrapped over the cap leads. Connect/disconnect it with the tone at 10, and see if you can hear any remotely significant difference.

I changed the pots to 250k (CTS). Used the same cables (definitley not high end). Sure the cap was wired properly. Done it many times before. I did use different caps however. The .022 was a radioshack metal film and the .047 was a DiMarzio poly film. I don't think that would make any difference. I did go from GFS Pups to the Keystones so it's like going from a Kia to a Cadillac!

Ok, Cool. You don't need an expensive cable. Only the total capacitance load on the pickups matters. If you find the lead PUP harsh, you might try a 200-300pF rated cable. It would be worth looking into a cable that would tune the lead pickup to the 4.2-4.5kHz "bell tone" resonance. It's a nice open, yet round sounding range with enough articulation for expressive finger style playing. Once you know the Henry value of the lead pickup, you can use this on-line calculator to determine the cable capacitance for the bell tone: http://www.calculatoredge.com/enggcalc/cap-freq-ind.htm
Derek might chime in to correct me if I'm wrong, but the Keystones should be 3.2H Lead and 1.6H neck.

Ok, Cool. You don't need an expensive cable. Only the total capacitance load on the pickups matters. If you find the lead PUP harsh, you might try a 200-300pF rated cable. It would be worth looking into a cable that would tune the lead pickup to the 4.2-4.5kHz "bell tone" resonance. It's a nice open, yet round sounding range with enough articulation for expressive finger style playing. Once you know the Henry value of the lead pickup, you can use this on-line calculator to determine the cable capacitance for the bell tone: http://www.calculatoredge.com/enggcalc/cap-freq-ind.htm
Derek might chime in to correct me if I'm wrong, but the Keystones should be 3.2H Lead and 1.6H neck.

I honestly wasn't aware of a capacitance rating for cables. Is it marked on the cable?

Most people aren't aware of the LCR interaction, but that's what an electric guitar is. I learned about it from Bill Lawrence.

The manufacturer may list a cable's pF/foot rating, but it's somewhat rare. You can always order some Wilde BL cable which is 20pF/foot. I measured ~20pF for each plug, but that may not be very accurate. Factor that in to the total, and you'll be safe. Elixer makes a 10' 116pF cable which would all but eliminate the resonance peak. Planet Waves makes a ~15pF/foot pedal cable kit.

The Tele Keystone set is 3.2H and 1.6H, last time I heard. Low capacitance cable definitely helps, but I wouldn't recommend trying to get a resonance between 3-5 kHz on the bridge position. Don't stress yourself :D Different cable may or may not help your situation if it is in the unpleasant range. Cheapest thing to do, if you can do your own wiring, is adding the resistor from the switch you see here:

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb390/wildepickups/Wiring%20Diagrams/tele3way.jpg

It drops down the sharpness of the resonance in the bridge position, making it easier to balance the guitar positions with the same settings on the guitar and at the amp.


If the problem is ever "too much overall highend", the amp can always solve that in 2 seconds. If the bridge position has too sharp a resonance, add the resistor. If part of the problem is having the resonance in an undesirable place, this will lessen the effect.


Don't go too crazy trying to get the perfect sparkle and such out of a $100 entry-level amp. There's a reason people turn to the Deluxes and Twins and Supers when they need that tone... it's not easy to replicate, especially on entry-level budgets. I sympathize with not paying for more than is needed, so if you're able, try the resistor before anything else, and be sure to play with the amp settings (like the 2-3 on the treble knob I mentioned previously). I wouldn't turn the mids down too far either (somewhere between mid and max).

The Tele Keystone set is 3.2H and 1.6H, last time I heard. Low capacitance cable definitely helps, but I wouldn't recommend trying to get a resonance between 3-5 kHz on the bridge position. Don't stress yourself :D Different cable may or may not help your situation if it is in the unpleasant range. Cheapest thing to do, if you can do your own wiring, is adding the resistor from the switch you see here:

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb390/wildepickups/Wiring%20Diagrams/tele3way.jpg

It drops down the sharpness of the resonance in the bridge position, making it easier to balance the guitar positions with the same settings on the guitar and at the amp.


If the problem is ever "too much overall highend", the amp can always solve that in 2 seconds. If the bridge position has too sharp a resonance, add the resistor. If part of the problem is having the resonance in an undesirable place, this will lessen the effect.


Don't go too crazy trying to get the perfect sparkle and such out of a $100 entry-level amp. There's a reason people turn to the Deluxes and Twins and Supers when they need that tone... it's not easy to replicate, especially on entry-level budgets. I sympathize with not paying for more than is needed, so if you're able, try the resistor before anything else, and be sure to play with the amp settings (like the 2-3 on the treble knob I mentioned previously). I wouldn't turn the mids down too far either (somewhere between mid and max).

I suppose the 200k resistor kind of acts like a treble bleed to ground be it ever so slight?

We've been through this before, Derek. You have a lot of good ideas and are very helpful, but Bill specifically said that a 4.2-4.5kHz Bell tone works great on his bridge pickups. I've tried it with several pickups from several manufacturers, and on many amp presets: it sounds as I have described. So, on what grounds do you not recommend that range for the bridge?

Assuming the standard 1m ohm Hi-z amp input load, the 200k resister will drop the bridge pickup load to ~70k ohms with 250k pots, as oppose to ~110k without it. The difference should be much more than slight.

Either method may solve the problem, but the resister might end up sounding darker than you expect. I see no reason to favor either method. Maybe, try both.

I'm giving recommendations to Rockhead, to start with, who finds the pickups with his setup too heavy on the high end, which is possibly due to an inappropriately accentuated resonance in the wrong range in the bridge position, or can otherwise be handled by a general balance at the amp. I'm not going to recommend trying to get the most sparkle he can out of the bridge position to fix it, and I'm doubting his problem is with too much 6 kHz+ coming out of his speaker. Even if he does have a resonance between 3-4 kHz, I don't suspect that his amp is missing much between 4.2-4.5 as a result, or that he is missing out on harmonic content above 5 kHz the low capacitance cable could help him deliver to the amp.

These are pickups that are exceptional at delivering 4 kHz to the amplifier, beyond even most of the early 60s Fender pickups well-known for their sparkle. I don't think I've ever seen someone wishing there was a way they could get more sparkle out of their Keystone bridge position (or their microcoils!). "Too bright" is a good indicator that his cable capacitance isn't so high that he's missing too much somewhere between 3-5 kHz and that his guitar is already presenting the extent of what his amp is capable of reproducing in terms of highs. Going low capacitance won't matter to the neck pickup, which already has a relatively low inductance and minimal interaction with cable capacitance, and the benefit from the bridge pickup is most likely negligible to the circumstance when opposed with taking out the accentuation of the resonance in the bridge position.

You could use lower value pots without losing your highs or output. The primary effect is lessening the resonance. I prefer adding the resistor at the switch over changing the pot values when using otherwise-standard wiring to give greater consistency between the positions but retain a little extra useable versatility from the neck position with the guitar's controls. I've used the parallel resistor across the bridge pickup on a few Teles and have consistently preferred the results. I wouldn't recommend it to everyone trying out the Keystones set, especially those who were comfortable with a much larger discrepancy between a much darker neck position and an edgier bridge position, but I'm pretty confident it's useful here. It's also the cheapest mod you could possibly make.

What do you play? The short answer is yes :razz: His L90s can be thought of as Bill's take on the PAF, completely redesigned for perfect clarity and beautiful highend while retaining the smooth attack characteristic desired by humbucker users. His other full-sized humbuckers are also worth looking into, but the L90s are my favorite.

I actually don't play the Les Paul much, but when I do, usually harder-edged blues stuff (a la Gary Moore). I almost bought a set of L90's but decided against due to the non-traditional cosmetics (I look at that guitar more than I play it). Maybe I should get over it and try a set.

However...I put a 4-way switch in my Tele today and that may just obsolete the Paul entirely. Keystones in series = phat and NICE.

However...I put a 4-way switch in my Tele today and that may just obsolete the Paul entirely. Keystones in series = phat and NICE.

Yep -- surprisingly wonderful. Roll off some tone, step on something fuzzy, dirty or distorted, and suddenly you're in Rawk City.