Questions about Scale Mode Names, and which one to learn next

Ok, for most of my life I was a blues scale improv Texas gunslinger kind of guitar player. Then last year I joined a country band and (finally) started learning the major scale, to go along with a lifetime of minor riffage.

So far so good. Its the same 5 patterns I've always used, just took me awhile to transcribe everything and become fluent and musical with my major scale leads. I'm finally comfortable there too. And by learning the major scale, I actually learned more about the minor scale in the process.

So now I realize there are 5 types of scale modes, called Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, and Mixolydian (and others too of course) but these 5 are matched up with the 5 sets of patterns I've always used.

So I guess my naive question is...

Is the Major scale the Ionian one? And which one is the Minor scale? And of the other 3 scales, what order should I learn them in? I was just reading in the latest Guitar Player about everyone should learn all 5 scales. I have a Fretlight guitar so that'll help.


Hope this makes sense.. thoughts and suggestions appreciated thanks!

Major is the ionian one. Aeolian is your classic sharp five minor scale. Dorian is your sixth minor scale. The lydian scale can be a good choice for major chords. Mixolydian is also gonna be very useful for you, it's just the major scale with a dominant 7th, can be used over dominant (7th) chords.

Sure other guys will pop in too, but for country playing, definitely get in touch with your mixolydian scale

Ionian is the major scale. The aolean mode is the the mode of the major scale which is commonly used as a minor scale, but there are other minor scales as well, such as the harmonic minor and the melodic minor. For basic musicianship I would learn those first. If you want to get into using modes for improvisation, concentrate on the dorian mode. It has all sorts of uses.

Major is the ionian one. Aeolian is your classic sharp five minor scale. Dorian is your sixth minor scale. The lydian scale can be a good choice for major chords. Mixolydian is also gonna be very useful for you, it's just the major scale with a dominant 7th, can be used over dominant (7th) chords.

Sure other guys will pop in too, but for country playing, definitely get in touch with your mixolydian scale



Aeolian has a perfect 5th as far as I know. In fact, all of the minor modes have perfect 5ths -Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian. Maybe I'm misinformed or misunderstanding your post.

What do you mean by "sixth minor?" The 6th degree of a major scale (the root's relative minor) is the Aeolian mode.

One way to hear what the modes sound like is to think of them in terms of " _ to _ in (Key)." Here's what I mean:
1 to 1 = Ionian
2 to 2 = Dorian
3 to 3 = Phrygian
4 to 4 = Lydian
5 to 5 = Mixolydian
6 to 6 = Aeolian
7 to 7 = Locrian

If you know your major scales, you can find any mode this way, and learn how to put the tonal center in , for example, D while playing the notes of the C major scale, you are in D Dorian. It's the way I got my feet wet on modes. YMMV.

'classic #5 minor scale' ... I'm using that. I have no idea what it is but I like the sound of it.

If you're not gonna play the whole mode/scale I wouldn't worry about linking them to the maj and min pentas you already know. Modes are really not necessary unless you're gonna play jazz, prog, fusion or types of ethnic music. For country and rock knowing the difference between the major and minor pentas and how they work is really all one needs - and that's a lot actually.

Wow thanks for the responses guys much appreciated!


Confession time, ya'll lost me on much of what has been discussed so far. I just do not do theory very well sorry.


But what I have learned -

1) The major scale I've recently learned is Ionian

2) The minor scale I've always played is Aeolian

3) The next 2 scales I should learn are Mixolydian, which is a variant of the major scale.. and Dorian, which is a variant of a minor scale (I think)

Cool!! That ought keep me busy for the next year or two. :grin:


The Fretlight guitar is really good for this sorta thing. After a lifetime of blues scale stuff, I had a hard time learning the major pentatonic stuff... the lights really did the trick for me, and will help too with learning Mixolydian and Dorian.



Aeolian has a perfect 5th as far as I know. In fact, all of the minor modes have perfect 5ths -Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian.


Ok what does this mean, what is a perfect 5th? Be gentle please. :grin:


Thx again ya'll!

This is pretty good, for Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_fifth)

In classical music from Western culture, a fifth is a musical interval encompassing five staff positions (see Interval number for more details), and the perfect fifth (often abbreviated P5) is a fifth spanning seven semitones, or in meantone, four diatonic semitones and three chromatic semitones. For example, the interval from C to G is a perfect fifth, as the note G lies seven semitones above C, and there are five staff positions from C to G. Diminished and augmented fifths span the same number of staff positions, but consist of a different number of semitones (six and eight, respectively).

The perfect fifth may be derived from the harmonic series as the interval between the second and third harmonics. In a diatonic scale, the dominant note is a perfect fifth above the tonic note.

The perfect fifth is more consonant, or stable, than any other interval except the unison and the octave. It occurs above the root of all major and minor chords (triads) and their extensions. Until the late 19th century, it was often referred to by one of its Greek names, diapente.[1] Its inversion is the perfect fourth.

Bb, when I said that those modes have perfect fifths, what I meant was that the 5th degree of the mode is a perfect 5th, 7 semitones (half-steps - frets, in guitarese) from the tonic. Look at Dorian - D to D with no sharps or flats, hence, D E F G A B C D. A is a perfect fifth up from D.

Scale Mode Names...

I Know - Ionian
Dolly - Dorian
Parton - Phrygian
Likes - Lydian (Li sounds like how you say Lydian phonetically at least)
Music - Mixolydian
A - Aeolian
Lot - Locrian

Scale Mode Names...

I Know - Ionian
Dolly - Dorian
Parton - Phrygian
Likes - Lydian (Li sounds like how you say Lydian phonetically at least)
Music - Mixolydian
A - Aeolian
Lot - Locrian

I had no idear modes were so Country!

I had no idear modes were so Country!

Well I guess Dolly likes to keep aBreast of these things :lol:

Well I guess Dolly likes to keep aBreast of these things :lol:


This is good stuff! I'm learning a lot. :lol:


So, after Dorian and Mixolydian, what is the 5th one I should learn? The one that corresponds with the 5th pattern I already know... thx again. Since there are 7 listed and Guitar Player said I needed to learn 5. I don't want to learn the wrong scale hehe. :mrgreen:

Skip (for now) Phrygian and Locrian. The other five are the main ones you will use, but when you really get into minor key music, you will at some point want to become familiar with the differences in harmonic, melodic and natural minors and leading tones for the dominant in a minor key song or tune. Forum member Joe-Bob has a lot to say on minor key harmony. Maybe he will weigh in.

Thanks JB! You've answered all my questions, much appreciated. I have much to learn (don't we all). It never ends, which is a good thing.


Take care...

If you want to learn the modes and you have a keyboard handy, it is useful to examine the key of C Major which is all white keys on the keyboard. Start with a C and walk up each white key to the next C and that is the C Ionian Mode. Now start on the next key after the C and walk up all white keys, so D to D is the D Dorian mode. E to E all white keys is E Phrygian, etc. for the remaining white keys and modes. Because it is so visual and linear on the keyboard it is a good way to familiarize yourself to sounds of these modes.

This is what JBMando was showing above in his first post, I am just putting it in different words.

This what JBMando was showing above in his first post, I am just putting it in different words.



Wow cool thanks, bonus section! I do have a nice keyboard, which I have very little idea how to play. I bet if I learned how to play the 12 major and 12 minor chords on the piano that too would help my guitar playing. Something else I've been wanting to learn someday.


Fun stuff....

Aeolian is your classic sharp five minor scale. Dorian is your sixth minor scale.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QUSbRUUsfIM/TzqJL5xQXOI/AAAAAAAAKZg/6nE87E5-ics/s320/scratch-head.gif


Mixolydian is also gonna be very useful for you, it's just the major scale with a dominant 7th, can be used over dominant (7th) chords.

Sure other guys will pop in too, but for country playing, definitely get in touch with your mixolydian scale

A 'dominant 7th' is a type of chord not a scale degree. It would be more appropriate to say that the mixolydian mode is a major scale with a flatted 7th degree.

One way to hear what the modes sound like is to think of them in terms of " _ to _ in (Key)." Here's what I mean:
1 to 1 = Ionian
2 to 2 = Dorian
3 to 3 = Phrygian
4 to 4 = Lydian
5 to 5 = Mixolydian
6 to 6 = Aeolian
7 to 7 = Locrian

If you know your major scales, you can find any mode this way, and learn how to put the tonal center in , for example, D while playing the notes of the C major scale, you are in D Dorian. It's the way I got my feet wet on modes. YMMV.

jbmando, I think you just nailed this down for me. I've been hoping somebody would. It's 4 a.m. and my wrist is hurting too much for guitar (sort of a revolting development), but I see a new breakthrough coming here. Thank you.

I
Don't
Particularly
Like
Modes
A
Lot

Okay, but you do understand that there are those of us who regularly post in this, the "Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique" forum, do like modes, and learning how to understand and use them in our chosen avocation (I daresay, sometimes, vocation) of making music with guitars, right?

Day 1 working with Mixolydian and Dorian scales.

Sweet!! Just like Major and Minor Pentatonic scales, but with two extra notes. I think I can handle these. Off and running!!!

ttfn.... :mrgreen:

Big_Bend

Good observation. Dorian is just your minor pentatonic with an added 9th and major 6th. Mixolydian is like your major pentatonic with an additional 4th and b7th.

You can also think of adding the chord tones from the progression to the basic scales and you can give some more flow and direction to your solos. Just my two cents... :-)

Day 1 working with Mixolydian and Dorian scales.

Sweet!! Just like Major and Minor Pentatonic scales, but with two extra notes. I think I can handle these. Off and running!!!

ttfn.... :mrgreen:

Or the pentatonic scales are like the regular ones with two fewer notes. :wink:


It's always interesting to read threads here and see different perspectives on stuff. I worked with an excellent teacher when I was learning as a kid and one of the first things he taught me was the harmonized scale and the modes that go with each degree. Then he took away two notes and showed me what a lot of the blues guys use.

I can't imagine trying to play music without knowing fundamentals like that.

Not a criticism of self-taught guys, just noting the different perspectives. I applaud anyone who wants to keep on learning - it beats the alternative. Nothing worse than a guy who seems to revel in his ignorance, and when you try to play something says, "Just play, I'll figure it out" and you end up playing the song with a guy who just goes fishing for the notes that work. (You know, the guy in cargo shorts and a hawaiian shirt who "plays by feeeeeeel, man" :wink:)

Not a criticism of self-taught guys, just noting the different perspectives. I applaud anyone who wants to keep on learning - it beats the alternative. Nothing worse than a guy who seems to revel in his ignorance, and when you try to play something says, "Just play, I'll figure it out" and you end up playing the song with a guy who just goes fishing for the notes that work. (You know, the guy in cargo shorts and a hawaiian shirt who "plays by feeeeeeel, man" :wink:)

Yeah it takes all kinds, that's for sure. I know a guy who never had lessons in his life and he could probably smoke anyone on this forum (on several instruments). And he's one of the best singers you'll ever hear. Really.

Some people just "get it."

I
Don't
Particularly
Like
Modes
A
Lot



Okay, but you do understand that there are those of us who regularly post in this, the "Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique" forum, do like modes, and learning how to understand and use them in our chosen avocation (I daresay, sometimes, vocation) of making music with guitars, right?

And did you not get that what I posted is a clever way to REMEMBER the mode names?

Do I need to post one of these stupid little :grin: things just for the humour challenged?

FWIW - I'm a full-time professional musician (woodwinds and guitar), and accomplished arranger and transcriber.

Well it was a "hit and run" post with a kind of negative message. I guess I just didn't think it was funny, and I am an accomplished laugher. I mean had you even said, "Here's a way to remember them:" it would have been clear that you weren't ragging on learning modes.

I guess I just didn't think it was funny, and I am an accomplished laugher.

:smile:

Well it was a "hit and run" post with a kind of negative message. I guess I just didn't think it was funny, and I am an accomplished laugher. I mean had you even said, "Here's a way to remember them:" it would have been clear that you weren't ragging on learning modes.

That's why I put the terms vertically with the first letter in bold type.

I'll try and make my subtlety more obvious in the future.

Not meaning to dis anyone but Mr Peccary is the only one on this post who got close to the reality of modes and it was more of a "hit and run" mention of the key ...harmonization.

Yes, you can play "modally"..like at Miles Davis...and set on one mode for a long while and milk it for the feeling. but if that is the only way you look at it you miss most of the enchilada.

Ionian: Major scale. Maj 3 maj 7. goes over......maj chords which is the chord that falls out when you harmonize in 3rds. You can harmonize the scale starting on each chord tone and get the following chord sequence: maj, min, min,maj, dom 7, min, half dimished and back to maj on the 1. Watch how that fits with the modes:

Now take that maj scale, start on the second note, treating it as the new 1 and and look at the intervals. get a min 3 and a min 7 : Dorian mode. now harmonize it; stack the scale tones in thirds the scale reveals itself to be a fully extended minor 7th chord. Worlds greatest mode for rock and roll and blues, especially if you play off the maj 3 and the min 3. Made a living off of it for decades before i figured out there was more to learn. But the key is that the dorian mode Generally goes with a min 7 chord. You can also go from that dorian 1 note and harmonize that scale for a series of chords that can be used for playing Dorian harmony tunes.

Phrygian..starts on the 3rd note, min 3, b7. when you harmonize the major scale starting at the 3rd tone get a minor 7 chord though if i remember correctly it is often used by jazzbos over a suspended 9 chord. never figured out much use for it other than grabbing some minor color. kinda gypsy like

Lydian. start from the 4th tone of the major scale and you get a maj 3, maj 7 (goes ver major chords) and a #4 (same thing as a b5 tonally...great color tone) so you get to spice up playing over maj scales.

Mixylodian. starts on the 5th tone, has a maj 3 and a b7. Pile the scale tones into the resulting chord and you get a dom 7. killer scale for blues...BB King's fav box, and for country tunes....get the major tonality and the dom 7 twang.

Aeolian = natural minor. Never use it, dorian works better for me though harmonizing the scale may offer up a chord foundation for writing a minor tune

7th mode, lyconian i think is how it's spelled, half diminished. You can figure out the intervals for homework. starts getting into the "outside" dominant tones over a dom 7 chord.

back to the one.

The point of all that is that chords and modes are the same thing. one is a vertical (chordal) reading of the notes and the other is a linear (scalar) reading of the notes.

If you're playing jazz (or trying to enliven the ole 1-4-5 blues) you can worry about the mode or you can grab the chord (make sure you can find them in all 5 boxes...CAGE method .....but another story), play the extensions and by default you grab the correct mode without the math....waaaayy over simplified of course but when you start visualizing the mode/scale form together with the chord forms that reside in it on the fretboard you can better see what goes together....which leads to better chord substitutions and on the fly chord modifications......which opens the door for taking solo paths you currently do not consider. Throw in some non scalar passing tones. rock on

secret weapon: Mark Levines Jazz theory book. Never met the guy, don't know him from Adam. best theory book out there. I'm totally self taught and this book makes sense where others never came close.

once you get through maj harmony there is minor harmony which is where jazz lives. I've dabbled there for years and still don't get it. That's where a teacher would be a good thing i'm thinking. maybe when i retire

Back to pentatonic scales for a moment...

Does anyone have any reccommendations for getting beyond the ol' major and minor pents to some more exotic or unusual pentatonic scales. Any books?

Well, I didn't elaborate, but I mentioned each mode and the scale degree each starts on. The seventh is called locrian.

Back to pentatonic scales for a moment...

Does anyone have any reccommendations for getting beyond the ol' major and minor pents to some more exotic or unusual pentatonic scales. Any books?

I don't know any books on extra pentatonic scales, but what about playing the equivalent scale degrees for each mode and calling them, for example, the Dorian pentatonic. Some would probably end up sounding similar to maj and min pentas, but I bet the different ones would be interesting.

Back to pentatonic scales for a moment...

Does anyone have any reccommendations for getting beyond the ol' major and minor pents to some more exotic or unusual pentatonic scales. Any books?
'Technically' you can make a pentatonic scale out of any scale - just use 5 tones. Realistically you'll want to start on the root, have some type of 5th in there and end on a type of 6 or 7.

Here's an example: A C# D E G# sometimes referred to as a Gamelon scale.
Another, usually called In Sen (I hear/see it coming from the Phrygian mode): A Bb D E G

Dominant 7th pentatonic: A C# D E G

(There are a ton of 5 note iterrations in Asian, N. African and Middle Eastern music - Google is your friend here)

*The real exoticism though comes from using the 'plain old' minor penta over more exotic chords. Example: m7b5 use a min.penta up a m3 or with a Maj7#11 play a min.penta from the chords maj.7th.
Gm7b5 = Bb min penta
Bbmaj7#11 = A min.penta (G min.penta also works)

My favorite book for using common pentatonics over exotic chords is Steve Khan's "Pentatonic Khancepts".

The pneumonic* device I made up to learn their order was:

I
Do
Play
Like
Mr.
Albert
Lee

I learned them all at once, all the way up the neck, in boxes with roots on the sixth string. If you start in G on the 3rd fret/2nd fret box, and then learn A dorian at the 5th fret box, and so on, and so on, then you can view it as (1) you have a great start on your modal study, and (2) you have taken your knowledge of the G major scale closer to mastery.

The next a-ha moment is when you realize you now know them all in boxes with roots on the fifth string. Just use the same boxes, e.g., root-6 ionian/major is root-5 lydian, and root-6 dorian is root-5 mixolydian, etc.

*EDIT: should be "mnemonic."

You made an iron lung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumonic_device) out of those words???:lol::cool:

Yeah, I feel it allows the music to breathe a bit more......


Whoops. Meant "mnemonic."

I studied this stuff for awhile and look at it as two concepts.

1. Pentatonic Superimposition, which is a fancy name for using common pentatonic scales in other situations to imply modes. Like a B minor pentatonic over a CM7 or CM7#11 to imply Lydian. I wrote a post about it here.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tab-tips-theory-technique/311514-exploring-pentatonic-substitution-helped-modes-very-long-post.html

2. Other pentatonic scales ie not the major or minor ones we all know.

I second the Pentatonic Khancepts book, it is great. He uses the minor pentatonic as well as the dominant pentatonic and gives the chords and progressions they sound good over.

Other resources:

Bruce Saunders has a book which is a bit more in depth dealing with pentatonics in a jazz context

Ron Lemos has a book on pentatonics as well

Here is a website with several altered pentatonics

http://www.mattwarnockguitar.com/beyond-basic-pentatonics-altered-pentatonic-scales-for-guitar.

Now for me, this was an interesting journey, but I realized along the way I was better served after learning some of the other situations the pentatonic scales I knew worked in by going back and digging into the major scale and its modes and uses as opposed to learning a ton of new pentatonic fingerings. YMMV. Good luck.

I'm still impressed that you play like Albert Lee. You don't mean this guy, do you?

http://accdproductgrads.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/albert-lee-photo.jpg

Thanks for the pentatonic tips. I'm going to check out "Pentatonic Khancepts".

I like the idea of starting a minor pentatonic on the chord's major seventh for a Maj7#11 sound:

FMaj7#11: E G A B D.

^^^ Notice that what's missing is the root and fifth, which gives you a cool "upper partials" sound.

When I try the same idea for an altered dominant sound, I either get the minor pent a minor third up:

GAlt: Bb Db Eb F Ab

Or this, which I don't know the name of:

GAlt: Ab Bb Bnat Eb F

I like the lack of the b5 (Db) in the second.

This book's even deeper. When I was coming up I'd see this book on EVERY hot players music stand in their practice area : http://www.amazon.com/Pentatonic-Scales-Improvisation-Ramon-Ricker/dp/0769230725
I'm on my second copy.

The seventh is called locrian.
Lyconian is a mode common to the traditional music on the planet Bela Tegeuse in the Dune system where their octave is divided into 42 tones. You can make a pentatonic with it using tones 1 11 17 28 and 40. Sounds great over an add2.

Lyconian is a mode common to the traditional music on the planet Bela Tegeuse in the Dune system where their octave is divided into 42 tones. You can make a pentatonic with it using tones 1 11 17 28 and 40. Sounds great over an add2.

Is that true?

Ken said it. I believe it. That settles it.

Hide your knuckles, kids: they're poppin' 'em now.

You guys have outdone yourselves this time. Great thread. I don't have time or money for formal lessons, but you've all helped me get better. I know I'm still not very good, but now and then someone else thinks I am. Thanks.

Ken said it. I believe it. That settles it.

Okay, then I believe it too.

Is that true?
Well, the part about add2 is.