Building from scratch - Impossible

What I was a kid, I met a man who had built his own guitar. I was very impressed, until I learned that he had only bought ready-made parts and put them together. "That's not building your own, that's just like playing with Legos", I thought.

Now I'm in my 30s, and a newbie guitar modder. I haven't assembled a new guitar from parts (yet), and I've certainly not built anything from scratch. But the growing desire to build my own guitar got me thinking: How does one build a guitar from scratch? Without relying on ready-made parts? (Because that's an essential part of the definition of "from scratch", isn't it?) Ok, so first you must go out in the woods and chop down a tree. Split it open, and put it to dry, before you can start shaping it. Ok so far. The wood part is doable.

Next; Pickups. You have to buy copper wire for the winding.... No scratch that, when you're buying ready made products, you're no longer doing things from scratch. You have to go out and dig up some copper ore. Smelt it. Stretch it to a ultra-thin wire. ... nnnno. This is not practically doable.

Tuners? Same story. You can mine iron to make your own, but then either the tuners would stink and/or be very primitive, or you'd use decades ... or you're a freaking genious on par with Leonardo da Vinci, with super-human ingenuity and skill. And steel strings? Better rely on cat guts I guess. Maybe it's just as well, as I have no scratch-built pickups for steel strings anyway.

I may have an unpractically rigid definition of the concept "from scratch", but it is what it is. I guess I'm never going to be able to build an electric guitar from scratch (unless someone can convincingly redefine the entire concept), even if I chop and dry my own wood for the body and neck. Oh well.

If you're mad because I've bored you with philosophy now, and because you'll never get those two minutes back ... I blame Carl Sagan, whose quote triggered me to actually write down these useless thoughts. :wink:
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the Universe.
-- Carl Sagan

Ok then... you're saying it wasn't actually the real Carl Sagan that told you he built his own guitar and then you found out later he just made from assembled the parts?..

it just something that he said... that made you think of Apple Pie?...

cool... ;)... I'd like to add a few more minutes to the total of this thread,,, there's tennis on you know.. I have to look up from typing when the good natured cheering happens..

there it goes again... doh!... another minute added.... Good shot Murray... chipper what...

Yes, you may "have an unpractically rigid definition of the concept "from scratch".

Take cooking for instance. With your definition you would have to grow or gather the ingredients. Who amongst us grows wheat and processes it to flour?

I have planted thousands of trees. I have a tree credit built up so I can use wood from another tree. I have bought enough copper products that my copper credit has a positive balance. and so on...

But I agree that putting together parts is not a scratch build. Many times you will see a new build thread, and someone has changed a pickguard or pup, or tuners...

To consider a guitar to be scratch built you have to have created at least a 5 gallon bucket full of sawdust and shavings.

:mrgreen:

Yes, you may "have an unpractically rigid definition of the concept "from scratch".
You're probably right. But I feel that at the very least I need a consistent working definition that makes sense and is generally agreed upon.

To consider a guitar to be scratch built you have to have created at least a 5 gallon bucket full of sawdust and shavings.

That's a good start. So ... one can buy all the hardware ready made, and still consider the guitar "scratch built" as long as one does all the wood work by oneself? Does everyone here agree to this? :razz:

Tuners? Same story.

You're thinking of building your own Gotohs? You're right, THAT is not realistic. But that's not the way the old school guys did it. Look at a violin. Look at a flamenco guitar. Press-fit pegs. Easiest thing in the word to make. You can even use them on an electric. In fact, I've got some violin pegs around, that gives me an idea...

Your point about the electronics is well-taken, but damn, people have been making truly scratch-made acoustic instruments for thousands of years. I've made quite a few myself. Including a couple with no power tools just to prove it could be done (I won't do that again, it's hard on your body!) You need to know wood, how it dries, how to split it along pre-existing lines, that sort of thing. But it can be done, and in fact that's the way most acoustic instruments get made.

What I was a kid, I met a man who had built his own guitar. I was very impressed, until I learned that he had only bought ready-made parts and put them together. "That's not building your own, that's just like playing with Legos", I thought.

Some people pay alot of money for these and call them "custom built".

Why make a guitar if all you want to do is to say that you made a guitar.... IMO - 'bragging rights' is not a great reason to do anything.

To me - it's all about conceptualizing and making a guitar that has the design elements that you wanted. I make guitars because I can't buy the guitars I wanted and I can make a guitar better than I could afford to pay someone else to make it. If it's not about making a great instrument - no matter how it was done or what someone started with - I don't see a great reason for doing it: Why not make something more useful like a chair or a cabinet?

I scratchbuild models .I use various non related bits and pieces like a bit of copper wire and some epoxy putty and create a tiny figurine or maybe some brass rod and sheet and and some brass master patterns for a model.This model below is scratchbuilt except for the base.I made everything else from scratch .
A parts caster is a kit of parts .So is any tune ,You assemble the notes into a form that is playable .You havnt built the format from scratch ,just the contents :grin:


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5309/5793390734_9f0f095aff.jpg

I scratchbuild models .I use various non related bits and pieces like a bit of copper wire and some epoxy putty and create a tiny figurine or maybe some brass rod and sheet and and some brass master patterns for a model.This model below is scratchbuilt except for the base.I made everything else from scratch .
A parts caster is a kit of parts .So is any tune ,You assemble the notes into a form that is playable .You havnt built the format from scratch ,just the contents :grin:

I have an old (1960s/70s) British book on scratchbuilt modeling - in this case, cars. Phenomenal stuff. People have no idea what a really determined person can build if they put their mind to it.

You're reinforcing my stereotype that the Brits are the world's best model builders. That's a hell of a figurine.

There will be some parts you buy, some you make yourself. I've seen people build their own bridge on here, winding your own pups is no longer anything out of the ordinary on the HomeDepot. People build their own trussrods and I seem to remember someone making some kind of fretwire (though that may have been on the CBG forum...), but I have not yet seen anyone build their own tuners. Now, that's not saying it can't be done. But really, this may not be a goal to persue.
My mom made apple pie from scratch, I'm willing to bet she's never planted a tree in her life. Let alone driven a grain harvester.

Start by building your own guitar body and if you're up to it, a neck. Use parts as they are available and affordable to you. Only 'scratch build' those parts you can't get your hands on the 'regular' way. Good luck and have fun!

[QUOTE=Olav;4261817]
My mom made apple pie from scratch, I'm willing to bet she's never planted a tree in her life. Let alone driven a grain harvester.
QUOTE]

It's not enough to drive a grain harvester...you have to build the grain harvester.

Hey, stick around these forums for awhile. There are some pretty close to scratch builders here. If not growing own wood, there are some nice guitars here from found object wood such as old barn wood, or wood from warehouses.

I would think a uke with wooden, pressure mounted tuning pegs* would be easiest. The hardest part would be to make metal frets from scratch coming up with ore to make metal.

I think mahogany would be good for body, stained maple for fretboard and bracing and tuning pegs.

As for strings, I hate to say this, go out and find yourself a cat.

So ... one can buy all the hardware ready made, and still consider the guitar "scratch built" as long as one does all the wood work by oneself? Does everyone here agree to this? :razz:

I do agree FWIW, but the point remains, do you want a guitar or a spirited conversation? Socrates for example had a heck of a lot of the latter, but none of the former, then killed himself on a point of pride :roll:
The Home Depot is where we build, The Bad Dog Cafe is where we talk

i do agree fwiw, but the point remains, do you want a guitar or a spirited conversation? Socrates for example had a heck of a lot of the latter, but none of the former, then killed himself on a point of pride :roll:
The home depot is where we build, the bad dog cafe is where we talk

+100000000000000000000000

I do agree FWIW, but the point remains, do you want a guitar or a spirited conversation? Socrates for example had a heck of a lot of the latter, but none of the former, then killed himself on a point of pride :roll:
The Home Depot is where we build, The Bad Dog Cafe is where we talk

The world needs all types and it's nice to have the practical, and the theoretical/philosophical. Leo built his guitar on both concepts and did so without knowing how to play the guitar. He thought way outside of the box and players had to catch up/warm up to him.

I think it's kind of interesting in thinking about a fully scratch built guitar. It would be a long term project, but who knows what ideas and innovations would come out of it.

Like everything...it's a matter of degree. You could go so far as to form your own fretwire...but why would you? To me it's enough to call it scratch built if you started out with neck, fret board and body blanks (pieces of wood) in the beginning. Who cares if you hang Seymour Duncan pups on the thing!!

The Home Depot is where we build, The Bad Dog Cafe is where we talk

I hope a moderator can move the thread if they consider it misplaced. If I started it in the wrong forum, I apologize.

Interesting.

I thought about this a bit ago in uke terms; it would be pretty simple to manufacture every uke part from wood in my basement. Except the fretwire. So then I started thinking about a lignum-vitae fretboard, with the frets all laid out, then scalloping the area in between (wooden frets). But then, what's the point? I'd still have to buy somebody's nylon strings.

I doubt you could make a truly scratch-built guitar in any practical combination of time, money, and resources. I'm not alone in that opinion, though; this guy (http://www.thetoasterproject.org/page2.htm)tried with a toaster, and although he sort of got it done, all he was able to do was warm some bread... that he'd bought at a store. To make toast from scratch, he'd still have had to mill up some flour and go bake it; to take things further, he'd have had to make his own millstone, his own oven, and his own bread pan.

So... to me, "from scratch" for TDPRI's purposes means "from roughly squared wood stock." That's good enough for me.

Like everything...it's a matter of degree. You could go so far as to form your own fretwire...but why would you? To me it's enough to call it scratch built if you started out with neck, fret board and body blanks (pieces of wood) in the beginning. Who cares if you hang Seymour Duncan pups on the thing!!

Some people would want something truly original or true to form.

A scratch built guitar is kind of like Sicilian food, something very hard to do and pressured from the common ingredients (Italian food) to generalize and give in.

One local Sicilian guy, in my very Sicilian (anti-Italian) neighborhood, tried to make a 100% percent Sicilian restaurant (feta, olives, no tomato, cous cous but in Sicilian style not not typically Greek or Italian) and it failed. Not taking the later invasion of Northern Italians, he wanted to put in the native Greek and Arabic influences into the cooking. Even the local and proud Sicilian clientele wanted standard Northern Italian fare with tomato sauce and Northern Italian Chianti (from famed five Northern counties of Italy) on the menu.

Who really wants a hometown pizza on it without red tomato paste? Who wants pizza served to them either on pita bread or a 9" inch pie dish? Personally, I love these alternatives to standard Italian dishes, but nobody could survive with such an authentic menu.

Similarly, only one real Mexican restaurant, without hard chips or taco shells and without ground beef, survives in my area. The Americanized Mexican restaurants do so much better.

again i wish i had mastered the art of including pics ! but, my wife's cousin (great player..her whole family pretty much is) brought the acoustic he had recently finished making to the annual family reunion last weekend. the only things on it he didn't make by hand were the tuners, frets, truss rod, and strings.

the body, neck, and fretboard were all made of the same ancient flame maple mantlepiece he was given some years back. the bracing is poplar, and the inlays, purfling, and rosette are stained sassafras. the bridge is walnut, with the saddle and nut hand-carved from deer bone.

it is the 4th or 5th he has made, starting with a kit years ago, and progressively making more of it himself on each build. this is the first "from scratch".

the thing is beyond beautiful, simply a joy to hear, see, and play. and i told him so too. he kinda looks at the ground and mumbles "well, we'll see how it holds together...maybe do better next time." wha?!?! that's just him: a more humble and modest man you will not meet.

http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1218/medium/2012_Challenge_021.jpg

Plant, water, harvest, nurture, grow, chop, saw, dry, join, shape, rout, sand, finish,

this will be pretty much a scratch built body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZNk76_4lds

To consider a guitar to be scratch built you have to have created at least a 5 gallon bucket full of sawdust and shavings.

:mrgreen:

+1

A truly beautiful sight!!!

http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1218/medium/2012_Challenge_021.jpg

Plant, water, harvest, nurture, grow, chop, saw, dry, join, shape, rout, sand, finish,

this will be pretty much a scratch built body.

I always forget, was Carl Sagan a Fender or a Gibson guy?

you might want to invest in a 3D printer. You could make tuners etc with that and truly build it from 'scratch' they start at about 2500.00 and work well....

that would allow you to make all the metal parts (the wood parts would be too large for the printer) and you'd be good to go.

I always forget, was Carl Sagan a Fender or a Gibson guy?

Dunno, but didn't he have BEEELLLLioons and BEEELLLLioons of them?

I do not understand the point of this discussion. You can build as much or as little of a guitar "from scratch" as you wish. I think it's pretty well understood that primary metals mining, manufacturing and specialized machining, manufacture of specialized electronic components, as well as harvesting, sawing, drying and planing lumber is done by specialty organizations who are organized to do these things. Or we can agree that nobody can truly do anything from scratch, because like Sagan said, you'd have to produce a universe, invent metals, etc.

Assemble a guitar from bought parts, or build one and hand build as many components as your time, skill, and resources allow you. If you've never assembled a partscaster or even a kit, then finished it, adjusted and set it up, you may be in for a surprise on how much skill is still involved.

Or perhaps we could clarify, for once and all, how many angels can REALLY dance on the head of a pin.

you might want to invest in a 3D printer. You could make tuners etc with that and truly build it from 'scratch' they start at about 2500.00 and work well....

that would allow you to make all the metal parts (the wood parts would be too large for the printer) and you'd be good to go.

:lol: It'd be great if 'they' made 3D printers printing wood wouldn't it? I need an industrial size 3D woodprinter so I can print me a row of appletrees.

I wonder what cartridges to feed such a printer...

keytars would be a tough scratch build i'd imagine.

we live in fast times, woodworkers, blacksmiths and musicians UNITE!

hermits who are done hunting for the day are probably singing and ripping it on acoustic gear built from "scratch", high on moonshine, singing weird things.

lots of money involved in the sweet futuristic electric guitar.

its way early, ive only had 1 cup and i'm guitarded.

I guarantee ya' that Leo never made a vacuum tube in his life, but I've seen video on the web made by a guy who did make a working vacuum tube "from scratch"! :lol:

Really, just do what serves your soul...

To consider a guitar to be scratch built you have to have created at least a 5 gallon bucket full of sawdust and shavings.

:mrgreen:

I Like to grow a tree for 200 years, dry it for 50 slice into slabs and dry those for 10 and then whittle it into an ugly shape. No one has the time to build from scratch by the literal definition so let's just all define "from scratch" our own way. My pride comes from the playability of my "scratch built" necks. I hope to build another one someday and a "scratch built" body and that will suit my personal definition. Often when you open your eyes you are impressed to varying degrees from ok to looking in Awe. This is where pride and skill comes to light the latter of which I painfully lack but it still fits into my personal definition and I refuse to alter my terminalogy due to another's worry over words.
I reserve the right to buy the rest of the parts to put on it to suit "my definition" after all it's not strictly what is put into the definition that is important, it is what comes out of it when your eyes are closed and you mind is uncluttered with Philosophy.
It's kind of like my spelling, there may be mistakes but it's the overall ideas that come across in the end. I leave the splitting atoms to those who prefer to do those sorts of things however anything that provokes thought has merit but like thoughts, they come and go.
I believe most here would agree that a home built body and home built neck (as long as you insert your own frets and truss rod and nut) would be classed as "Scratch built". The different degrees of this need not be brought into question. A "partscaster" would be considered a store bought body and a store bought neck already laden with frets, trussrod and nut. Both would be eligible to have steel and electric stuff placed to adorn them and produce sounds of varying types to each own's taste. If placed to a vote, I believe consensus would agree. The depth the rabbit hole goes from there is placed solely in the hands of the builder.

So, how do you feel about tools? As in, are you allowed to use pre-made tools?

I have a friend who is a professional smith. And every year, he comes down to do a demo for his old professor where he does his smithing using nothing but what he can find in a paticular park (though he does bring his own ore).

Smelt, process, forge, etc. Using nothing more than a bit of a hillside, some deadwood, and a couple rocks. So don't say it can't be done. It's just hard.

But it takes longer if you have to make the tools, too. Building up to the point where you can make cast iron (because smelting aluminum is a bitch) would take a few years.

And I wouldn't count out making tuners. You don't even need a machine shop for those, though getting correct gear profiles would be rough using nothing but a file.

http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/1218/medium/2012_Challenge_021.jpg

Plant, water, harvest, nurture, grow, chop, saw, dry, join, shape, rout, sand, finish,

this will be pretty much a scratch built body.

Is that oak? They cut down a diseased tree in front of my house some years ago and it looked just like this wood. The wood looked great but the bark was starting to fall off and the leaves were coming back less and less each season.

Years ago on the MIMF there was a guy who's tagline read: "Tooling up to build my first dreadnaught". Over the years he started all manner of discussion about making wooden bandsaws, bending irons, jigs, his own planes, even a forge to make his own chisel and plane blades.

Never made a dreadnaught though....

How's this?

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg535/nosmospics/Backscratcher.jpg


Oh...........building FROM scratch. I thought it said FOR scratch. Never mind - carry on.

Is that oak?

It is Cherry. planted in the late 70's.

It started to go down hill about three years ago.
then last year a big branch came down from the weight of the cherries.
So this spring it was chopped down and the trunk was milled.

It is drying and I won't know how much will acually be any good till at least next year.

In the meantime, I'll be saving some northern Michigan ash from the wood burner. It seems my sister has 15 giant ash trees to deal with. normally they get split up and use as fuel but she said she would put a couple of pieces aside for me.

Some people pay alot of money for these and call them "custom built".

dont make this become the masterbuilders thread

Years ago on the MIMF there was a guy who's tagline read: "Tooling up to build my first dreadnaught". Over the years he started all manner of discussion about making wooden bandsaws, bending irons, jigs, his own planes, even a forge to make his own chisel and plane blades.

Never made a dreadnaught though....

Haha!

**oigun scratches his head**

But what is the point unless you are stranded on a uninhabited island?

Maybe grow your own pot and start philosophize...:mrgreen:

Well Lars,

I look at it this way. I once saw a guys wood shop where there hung a sign that read "Sometimes the easy way is hard enough". Words to live by. To use your terms, I have done a few "Lego" builds and was left unsatisfied. So I did this year what you might consider for next year; walk up to the edge of the proverbial raging river and jump off into the 2013 Build Challenge. While you won't be creating the guitar from personally arranging things on the atomic level, I promise you when done, you will be able to proudly hold up your creation and tell anyone you built it from scratch. If anyone criticizes you for not making the tuners, strings or wire, I can assure you that somewhere a village has lost its idiot and you are talking to that person.

Rob

But what is the point unless you are stranded on a uninhabited island?

Maybe grow your own pot and start philosophize...:mrgreen:
:lol::lol:



Well Lars,

If anyone criticizes you for not making the tuners, strings or wire, I can assure you that somewhere a village has lost its idiot and you are talking to that person.

Rob
:lol::lol::lol:


Now that's funny right there :grin:

Haha!

**oigun scratches his head**

But what is the point unless you are stranded on a uninhabited island?

Maybe grow your own pot and start philosophize...:mrgreen:

Hey Oigun,

I'm from Northern California and it is common knowledge here that weed doesn't grow well in sandy soil. Just saying........

Rob

I probably agree that it's a bit rich to claim you made a guitar when you assemble a prefinished partscaster. I think you can rightly say you assembled it though.

But when a cabinet maker makes a cupboard - do you say he didn't make it from scratch because he bought hinges and latches for it?

So if you buy tuners and pickups is that not making one from scratch? I think that's going a bit far.

Are you going to dig up your own coking coal, iron ore and smelt your own metal before fabricating a bridge and tuners from it? Maybe make your own wire and wind your own strings? What about making your own polyurethane or nitrocellulose lacquer - you can't say you made the guitar unless you mixed the chemicals? How about turning up some threads and making your own neck and pickguard screws? [it pains me to have to say that this is all meant to be slightly sarcastic for those people who can't detect sarcasm in written posts].

You have to draw the line somewhere don't you.

You have to buy copper wire for the winding.... No scratch that, when you're buying ready made products, you're no longer doing things from scratch. You have to go out and dig up some copper ore. Smelt it. Stretch it to a ultra-thin wire. ... nnnno. This is not practically doable.

Didn't you know that copper wire was invented when two Scotsmen were fighting over a halfpenny..?

Apart from the tuners (Kluson) and strings (Dunlop) , my stuff is all from "scratch".

I do the wood from scratch,
Michael Reilander or Don Mare does the pickups from scratch,
Marc Rutters does the hardware from scratch.

That's as far as I'll go to my definition of scratch.


Pass the bong, I need another hit of philosophy please.

There's always the ngoni....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxFrDshQBAY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

To consider a guitar to be scratch built you have to have created at least a 5 gallon bucket full of sawdust and shavings.

:mrgreen:

Sounds like as good a criterion as any.

Rex
(who has two teles in the works from "cut trees". If "the milled wood is sitting in my shop and I will really get to it one day, for sure" counts as "in the works")

Is this some round about way of saying I need to pay more taxes because I "build" my own guitar?

...........: How does one build a guitar from scratch? Without relying on ready-made parts? (Because that's an essential part of the definition of "from scratch", isn't it?) ..............

I may have an unpractically rigid definition of the concept "from scratch", but it is what it is...........

When someone bakes a cake "from scratch" they are not growing their own wheat or refining their own sugar.