June 22nd, 2012, 07:59 PM
I was watching this Janis Joplin documentary where she is recording "Summertime" (starting at 4:43.) The tune is in Gm but the chord they end on is G major-- a device from classical music called a "Picardy Third." After the first take you can see the producer thinks this is a mistake and tries to get them to redo it. The band doesn't understand what he means because they don't realize he was such a dumb@ss. Pretty funny.
June 23rd, 2012, 03:31 PM
I'm pretty sure that's John Simon, who also produced The Band and he is a musician and a pretty good one too.
I can't explain the episode you speak of in that clip but it's not due to a lack of musicianship.
Now Andrew Oldham who 'produced' some of the Rolling Stones early records was niether a musician or a producer. He was a publicity man. K. Richards says he didn't know his arse from a hole in the ground when it came to music.
June 23rd, 2012, 06:41 PM
John Simon just didn't like the 'picardy' 3rd.
You'll notice that the final recorded ending is on Gm chord.
June 23rd, 2012, 09:56 PM
It was hard to hear the dialog, but I believe he was saying that the last words of the song, "don't you cry," worked better with the sad minor chord rather than the more happy major chord. On the other hand, the Baroque-style intro made the picardy chord stylistically appropriate. I always associate the picardy third with Baroque, and cannot recall hearing it in classical music of later periods. Surely it must appear in the music after that, but I am drawing a blank on where it has been used elsewhere.
God, what a voice she had. She also seemed to have a very intelligent, highly engaged personality. What a loss her death was.
June 23rd, 2012, 11:57 PM
Dang, I meant to post this in the Tabs, Tips and Theory forum.
June 24th, 2012, 12:29 AM
O ya, sure, Canada's part of England. I never knew that.
With her in the band they don't need a saxophone player.
Just kidding. Her voice is a power to be reckoned with.
June 24th, 2012, 02:12 PM
The portrait of the Queen in every room in Canada and on some of the currency may have threw her.
June 24th, 2012, 02:22 PM
I don't know. I've never worked with one who wasn't. You don't need to be an exceptional player though. Just have exceptional ideas for arrangements and exceptional ears.
It also helps to be a little bit of a cheerleader and a little bit of a critic as needed.
June 24th, 2012, 02:44 PM
Well..I guess it depends on the definition of "musician" ...
How about Shel Talmy ?? [The Kinks, The Who, The Easybeats, Cat Stevens,, The Creation.....] Not a musician per se but extremely talented in production , arranging, and recording techniques.
June 24th, 2012, 05:11 PM
It depends on your definition of 'producer' to me it's someone who can listen to ideas and make them happen - whether it's playing an instrument to compliment the track or accessing a musician who can; writing an arrangement; adding hand claps or cowbell or acoustic guitar or being the one to say 'that's the take' or 'let's move on to something else, this isn't happening'.
I've always found the role of 'producer' a fascinating role in the whole process of recording
Out of curiosity, how many here would consider using a producer, without a proven track record, who is a non-musician.
June 27th, 2012, 04:32 AM
I guess it doesn't matter at all if the producers are not musicians for as long as they know how to entertain their target audience. Sometimes, you don't need to be really expert at it but you know how to be a good listener just like an avid fan. It should not an issue unless it is not acceptable but I guess it is not.