Old Relic P Bass (Eye Candy)

I don`t know about anyone else but I love stuff like this:

http://northland.smugmug.com/Music/Bass/i-Jm7ZSjW/0/L/j15-5320PRECISION20BASS20075-L.jpg

Take care. Bob

Mojo!

Aside the "burnt" pickguard it looks perfect to me!

Damn, those ebonite bridge saddles are ultra-vintage, first stages of 1951...

My first thought too Immo. I wouldn`t want to have to buy a set on todays market>

The one screw tug bar is cool too. Adjustable that way for guys like yourself that like to cant them. Take care. Bob

These two instruments & photos are much alike:

http://northland.smugmug.com/Music/Bass/i-Jm7ZSjW/0/L/j15-5320PRECISION20BASS20075-L.jpg

http://northland.smugmug.com/Music/Bass/i-W9LgsKG/1/L/51-3-L.jpg

but different at the same time. Take care. Bob

I wonder what put the wear on the fretboard above the highest fret? plucking over the upper portion of the fretboard?

Hmmmm, the stories that could tell.

I wonder what put the wear on the fretboard above the highest fret? plucking over the upper portion of the fretboard?

LOL that's the first thing I noticed as well. Any player will look at it/you and laugh.

My first thought too Immo. I wouldn`t want to have to buy a set on todays market
I believe there's a guy in USA who makes the saddles like that from ebonite. They don't sound that good, in fact they really damp the sound, or so I heard.

I wonder what put the wear on the fretboard above the highest fret? plucking over the upper portion of the fretboard?

Slap and pop technique leaves that kind of damage on maple fretboard, my MiJ P has it (maybe not that serious, but still). I guess plaing only with your thumb (the vintage way) also will leave that kind of marks after a LONG time. And this bass is OLD, ya'know. :D

Aside the "burnt" pickguard it looks perfect to me!

The pickguard isn't "burnt" ...
The first pickguards were made of shellac and were painted.
So, what you see is a worn out painted shellac pickguard.

From the mid 1950s it was possible to produce white plastic pickguards, but no good black plastic pickguards. So, the pickguards first were shellac, white, (gold) aluminium and tortoise.

When were the first black platic pickguards used by Fender? Somewhen during the CBS time? 1967/68??? I can't remember a Pre-CBS Fender instrument with black (mono or three-ply) pickguard? Or am I wrong?

According to the Fender Bass Handbook, the first pickguards were NOT shellac.

They were Bakelite (these days sold as Garolite), which is a plastic that at the time was used alot for circuit boards and radio components.

The Bakelite guards were then LACQUERED, as bakelite is not shiny is its raw form.

What you see in the picture is the lacquer worn away to reveal the natural Bakelite, which in turn has player wear that produces shiny spots. The guard was originally black.

Uups! Sorry!

I mixed up Bakelite and shellac - but Bakelite was meant!
The same material old telephones and switches are made of ...

I dig relics alot! But that one has gone to far.

I think Bakelight is the proper term.
Also from the Fender Bass Handbook are several photos of the exact same bridge with unnotched saddles. They simply termed phenolic resin as the material used. By 53 they updated & were both metal & grooved. Gotta love the history in these old relics. Would anyone care to estimate current mrket value on this vintage classic? Judging by the outrageous priced being asked for old Fender stuff today I an sure it is worth a small fortune. Take care. Bob

Hi Bob,

the German expression is "Bakelit" (and this is a phenolic xy ...).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakelite

What's wrong with this bass ...
The pickguard screws?!

The early 1951-53 basses with these bridges had "normal slotted screws" and no "Phillips screws" (hope I used the right English expressions?).

It also irritates me a bit that the two bridge "riders" (as we call them in Germany) are in such good condition. In most cases, the "riders" became "weak" after some time (that's why they changed them to metal riders?).

Good eye Cadfael. You`re right the first screwheads were straight slot and were eventually standardized to Phillips head. Take care. Bob

I like it

Is that even a relic? I'm pretty sure that is the real deal... I think it's cropped up before, the tagline being that if you saw a relic that looked like that you would criticise it, but it happens to be a real 51 P bass....

Manolete my interpretation is used in the old standard context.
Relic is something old and revered because of it.

Reliced is something made to look old.
So i am guessing that this example is a relic. Correct me if I`m wrong. Thre are some pretty good reliced examples out there capable of fooling much more experienced eyes that mine. Take care. Bob

From one photo it is IMPOSSIBLE to judge if this is
- a reliced Precision or if it is
- a relic modified original Precision

What you CAN say:
1. The pickguard screws (and control screws) are "wrong".
2. The pickguard has too many screws
3. The "bridge riders" are in too good condition
4. The owner must have turned around the bridge cover for many years
5. The bass must have had at leat two owners because of different "right thumb relics"
6. There are no colour changing where the foam might have been
7. the dark stripe in the middle doesn't fit to the white stripes of the covers

BUT ...
a German saying is: "I have already seen horses puking in front of a drugstore ..." :lol:

A 60 y.o. bass can have a history!
All things I moaned can be explained! The screws were rusty and one of the owners put in new (and more) Phillips screws in 1973 +++

One photo is never enough to prove relic or reliced.
I helped to modify a 1977 Fender Jazz Bass in 1988.
It semed like a good idea at that time! :oops:
Today I would deny to do what I did in the past. We didn't know that we were "burnig money" ...

I've seen a whole series of pix of that bass. It's the real deal. And an amazing instrument.

Cadfael you make good points. One thing I have been involved in here is classic cars ( the air-cooled Volkswagen in particular). I could be retired in comfort had i know or been able to predict the eventual value of them.
Fender stuff seems to be he same way. I see items on ebay that appear to be a mistake in price until I come to unverstand that it is vintage fender. take care. Bob

rip topaz can you link us to the series just so those that are curious can see more. Thanks & take care. Bob

The oldest Fender bass (instrument) I ever held in my hands was a 100% original Fender Telecaster bass from 1968. :oops:

So, I can't say I am an absolute Fender vintage expert. :oops:

But (as an Asperger autist) I analyzed hundreds of photos of old (or faked) Fender basses from 1951 to 1983. This made me a "myth-buster" and addicted freak in one.

Especially from 1951-65 may things were possible. The Fender company extended and Leo Fender always had problems to build as many instruments as required. With the increase of the instrument range the problems grew - and Leo Fender (and his employees) always found (sometimes very strange) ways.

These years were years without internet or multiple photo magazine reports. The Fender bass in the shop was an "up-to-date" Fender bass - and nobody could really judge what was typical for a 52/53 or 55/56 Fender bass. Only big differences like the contoured body from 1954 or the new 57 P-Bass were easy to see. No advertisement showed different bridges, a different wiring +++

Who knew, that his Sonic Blue Stratocaster body was yellow stained before (because it might have become Sunburst) and changed the colour into "Surf green" after 10 years?!

Some parts of the P-bass are surely NOT original.
But this doesn't mean that the bass is a fake!

I would like to see other photos of this bass, too! :grin:
Maybe a link?

Cadfael i found the rest of the photos of this Pbass.
http://blackguard1952.webs.com/1953precisionbass1032.htm
A lot more about vintage iD here too. Take care. Bob

0014 My Gracious!

0353 shows, how a (mostly) original old P-Bass should look like.

The trusrod screw of the 1032 is most important to me ...
Many things may have been changed, but not this screw - and the screw is right (and not seen on "plain fakes".

The most important issues to prove that the 1032 is original aren't shown.
But if it was a fake / reliced bass, "half experts" would immediately shout: "It's a fake!", because of many "obvious mistakes". Would the "faker" have put so much work into small details "half experts" don't notice - but forgot obvious things easy to be seen?

Most "fakers" put work into "obvious details" - and when they are experts, 99% are right. I listed 7 "obvious mistakes", but all mistakes can/might be explained! You have to look "behind the obvious" when you want to judge if a bass is relic or reliced.

As I said; many important (inner views) are missing. But to me 80/20 this is a relic P-Bass.

Hey Cadfael I find this all very impressive that there are people that know all of this stuff but you`re getting way over my head with so many tech details. I still trying to learn the name of the strings that play the things.

What are period correct vintage strings used by Mr Leo on these old P`s anyway?
Lets see we got half fakes & obvious mistakes Vs most fakers & plain fakes. way too confusing for anything but a Dylan lyric "johnnys in the basement fakin on the Pbass I`m on the telephone callin all the( half ) experts" Take care. Bob

OOOOKAY, gettin' creepy.
I hope one day I'll be as obsessed as you are.

Since reading TalkBass.com. I have come to realize that TDPRI is worse for my B.A.S./G.A.S. than the former.
TDPRI seems to be extremely gear driven and player focused. It stills runs the gambit with various forums and perhaps it is due to the fact that the only bass part of it is this sub-forum, but it appears to be a microcosm of what occurs on TDPRI. Like a more intense form of it's cousin.
Just sayin'