My boothill 5F1 Arrived !

My boothill 5F1 kit showed up at my doorstep this morning !!

Cant wait to get started !
This will be my first build ever so all the experts please stop me when there are anything I done wrong :razz:

I think I will follow the tubedeport instructions but since their kit comes with PCB board, I'll first have to find a good schematic ....

Let the journey start !!

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/s720x720/282832_10151813967485066_922048107_n.jpg

Here's your 5F1 Schematic (http://www.turretboards.com/layouts_schematics/fender/schematics/fender_champ_5f1.gif) and the 5F1 Layout diagram. (http://www.turretboards.com/layouts_schematics/fender/layouts/champ_5f1_layout.gif)

I don't foresee getting one any time soon, but I do plan on building one of my own, eventually.

Oh you're going to like the build. I built a Marsh 5F1 kit in 2007. I learned a little troubleshooting along the way, which helped me make two minor repairs along the way. The best part is that it's my favorite amp.

Ok I think I like the layout more then the schematic ...

how come the schematic says 16 mf on the biggest cap
and 8 on the other two, but the ones in the kit is 22 and 10s
is that ok?

Couple more...

http://site.triodestore.com/5F140-18027240V.pdf

https://taweber.powweb.com/store/5f1_layout.jpg

how come the schematic says 16 mf on the biggest cap
and 8 on the other two, but the ones in the kit is 22 and 10s
is that ok?

It helps with hum reduction

the triode one is heaps better !

Hey! Cool beans, Icy!

My kits is in the mail as of today. I've been digging through the forum trying to get ideas from all the previous builds on here. Looking forward to learn from this build as well. Seems like there are enough generous folks here to keep noobs like me out of too much trouble, I hope.

Enjoy your build,

Mark

Hi Mark !
yea, there are lots of cool people helping out !

I've hit another problem....
a few of the resistors dont match in values.
the one under the biggest cap is 10K 2W in the layout but the one I got is 10K 3W
the 0.22uF in the middle is 223K on mine....
hm...

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/s720x720/255492_10151814266065066_2045066686_n.jpg

Hey, Icy.

I think there are a bunch of things that you and I will both learn by building these.

I've read that a resistor of a higher value (3 watts instead of 2) will be more reliable and maybe even quieter. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

223K is secret squirrel code stuff for .22uF. And the K is a code for the tolerance.

Please check if I have got it right before I solder it in :)

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/575180_10151814313545066_1083659331_n.jpg

I love these build threads! I'm a total noob to amp building too. I am working on getting my kit now... I've been getting into amps lately and my newest amps really make me want to learn more and build one!

Anyway, I was going to say that any and all info you guys post is very helpful! Let us know how the build progresses!

223K is .022uf and it looks like your sweet to go :wink:

Hey Icy.

Check out Dave's tips on his website. Good ideas on how to wire up to the turrets before you start soldering. I just watched them again today for about the third time!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ8WtcmKGEI

He's got three other good videos as well. Hope you find this useful

Mark

oh dear the back of the board is hard to do.....

Does anyone know why do we have to bend the pin 4 and 5 together?

Makes it easier to feed the heater wire between them.

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/527731_10151814548495066_1240912561_n.jpg
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/182123_10151814548575066_1179728901_n.jpg

Board is done.... not as good as I thought I could do....
my soldering skills is still lacking....

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/581307_10151814548135066_2107508838_n.jpg
Here is the chassis

Should I put the board in first ?
But I'm still waiting for the transformer

You could install the tube sockets and wire-in the socket heater pins next (before you do the board or the PT) while you still have good working space. You can 'lay' the twisted pairs down against the rear/bottom flange of the chassis - being next to the chassis ground helps 'eat up' stray EMF from the heater wires. Then wire in the OT secondary to the output socket. (See the green and black twisted pair heater wiring in the pic)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7066/6945898075_80c965d483_z.jpg

For the output socket - if you put a 270R-470R 5W resistor across the OT secondary (wire it between the output socket tip and the output socket ground - I also have one on the output jack in the above pic), it will be in parallel with the speaker load and will 'protect' the OT in case you accidentally switch the amp on without a load. It permanently stays wired in but it won't affect the load because (say) 270R||8R is still 7.8R, and being 30+ x more resistance than the speaker, it only absorbs a fraction of the output power. It also helps stabilise the GFB circuit by snubbing oscillation (not that this will be much of a problem in a 5F1). See schematic JM2CW

Does anyone know why do we have to bend the pin 4 and 5 together?

You CAN take off a little longer piece of insulation and feed it from 4 to 5 (or 5 to 4) and solder both pins separately, but bending the pins together is just another method. The main thing is that these two pins must be connected. A single 9-pin preamp socket is not so bad, but if you have heaters to 2 or more, the wiring can be fierce! Wait until you try it with 18 gauge single-strand! :shock:

Board is done.... not as good as I thought I could do....
my soldering skills is still lacking....

Now is the time to make sure your solder connections are good. You won't want to pull the board again after it is in the chassis.

Does anyone know why do we have to bend the pin 4 and 5 together?


In 12A_7 tubes, the heater filament can be wired for 12.6VAC@150mA or 6.3VAC@300mA. Since you'll probably have a 6VAC heater winding on your PT, you need to wire the 12AX7 for 6.3VAC. For this, pins 4 and 5 are connected together as one side of the filament winding, and pin 9 is the other side. (This results in both the heater filaments inside the tube being wired in parallel).

Is the circuit board meant to be screwed down with the plastic screws?
I only have 6 screws and nuts but I need 8 for two 9 pin socket a small tube socket and the output transformer?

Use the nylon screws and nuts and plastic standoffs to mount the board to the chassis.

The two screws you used to mount your OT are for your tube sockets.

These are six - SAE Number 4 screws with K lock nuts.

The mounting screws for your OT are coming with the delivery of your Power Transformer (with nuts). They are two number SAE #6 screws with K lock nuts.

There are no tube holders for the bigger sockets. Don't worry. They won't fall out.

The tube holder for the little one is a holder but it is also a shield. Like Sheilding or shielded wire it keeps signal interference from entering through the glass envelope of the tube.

Good to see tubeswell is helping you. He is a guru.

Is the circuit board meant to be screwed down with the plastic screws?
I only have 6 screws and nuts but I need 8 for two 9 pin socket a small tube socket and the output transformer?


Yes, the plastic 'stand-off' screws to raise the turret board off the chassis.
The 6 screws with star-locks are for the tube sockets. You will need a pair of slightly larger screw/nuts for the OT. I can't remember if mine came with those or not. (I changed everything to metric because I couldn't find my inch tools after a recent move)

ok, I guess I'll do what tubeswell suggest now until the power transformer arrives !

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/s720x720/249168_10151815031895066_632641622_n.jpg

Where do these go?
Do I need a ground thingy on every tube socket?
Is that red wire used as ground wire?

thx guys :) cant wait to hear the results !

Wow, you've made a lot of progress in such a short time! Looks good! I'm building a Boot Hill 5E3 as my first and I'm having a blast doing it.

I love watching these builds. Good job so far. I was given some good advice about amp building. It's a little like wooing a woman. Go slow, take your time, and go slow. Think about what your next move may be, and why you are doing what you are doing.

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/s720x720/8071_10151815121695066_810793955_n.jpg
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/556581_10151815121525066_1276586948_n.jpg

Heater wires ! Done !

The wire is for grounding. hackworth1 explains it in this video:
dlqTlyb6Ay8

Wow, you've made a lot of progress in such a short time! Looks good! I'm building a Boot Hill 5E3 as my first and I'm having a blast doing it.

Yea I'm abit of a natural workaholic :oops:
So I cant stop until I'm done :mrgreen:

Oh right !

but then....if I'm not using plastic pots then I wont need it right?

Where do these go?
Do I need a ground thingy on every tube socket?
Is that red wire used as ground wire?

thx guys :) cant wait to hear the results !

Yay icy_wind. Welcome to the club!
That's for your ground connections. Are you using cliff or switching jacks? There are several ground scenarios. I didn't use a ground buss, but did use cliffs, you need to drill a hole in the most distant section of the chassis from the PT and screw that ground tag there and run most of your grounds there. Or to your well bolted switching jack ground lug. (do it after you've seen Dave's)
I will say you should just read all the builds on here. All your questions have been addressed.
I think lots of folks will help if you don't.
Search my 5f1 build too. I got lots of advice from a pro and shared most of it I think. I did do a special ground thing. Running your heater center tap to pin 8 of your 6v6 will get you a back stage pass to the VIP club :) (see the green and yellow stripped wire). In other pic see the little ground tab way in the corner. Also, run your first big filter cap to a ground on your PT (power tran) WITH the high voltage CT. then just ground your ac earth (green) to a lone ground tab nearest the insertion. See pics. Your amp should be dead quiet.
Also also. Instead of capping off your white ac cord line and one black. Just solder both to pin 3 of 5y3. It's unused so it makes your amp look tidy.
*this post dedicated to Dave :)*
Also also, get out some paper and start learning what the tube pins go to. Draw it out. That's your homework :)
Take care!!

G'day from Perth Icy :smile: Great to watch as you progress. I have the exact same amp kit coming my way, so I can't wait to see how yours turns out.

Also also. Instead of capping off your white ac cord line and one black. Just solder both to pin 3 of 5y3. It's unused so it makes your amp look tidy.
ok, I'm doing a safety edit. Maybe don't do this and just cap the two off. You could die if you touch this spot. The neatness isn't worth it.
Also, I recall another vet posting about putting some shrink tubing or adding insulated connectors on your fuse lugs. That's also a great idea. Also, omg please read all the safety warnings and know EXACTLY what's what when you go probing once you've applied voltage. Please don't skip learning about discharging caps and safe practice. Aside from all that doom, have fun :)

Is there anything else I could do before the power transformer arrives ...?
Waiting is painful....

Is there anything else I could do before the power transformer arrives ...?
Waiting is painful....

Sure. You can put your board in and a wire up everything bar the PT.

Sure. You can put your board in and a wire up everything bar the PT.

But I dont have the screws to screw down the output transformer :shock:

Sure. You can put your board in and a wire up everything bar the PT.

In fact, this was the sage advice I got. Those trannies are heavy, and make peering into the chassis cavity unwieldy. Attach and connect transformers last. Looking forward to the next set of pics!

In fact, this was the sage advice I got. Those trannies are heavy, and make peering into the chassis cavity unwieldy. Attach and connect transformers last. Looking forward to the next set of pics!

How do you screw in the output transformer when the board is on it though? :shock:

You can't...OT must go on first...nuts on the outside is best.

But I dont have the screws to screw down the output transformer :shock:

Oops, you're right. 5E3 works, but not 5F1. Guess you have to wait... ouch!

I know how it feels. My first build, I was in such a rush. 2nd build, old salt. lol!

I'm waiting on my cabinet, shipped from Wisconsin to Japan. It's traumatic! I know I could hook things up and test before the cab arrives, but space is at a premium here, so I don't have a place to just leave parts around. Good news is that it seems the cab cleared customs.

I sure hope you don't have to wait as long as I had! :shock:

Posts to Australia takes years !
I dont know why they are so slow around here....
I've ordered a walnut 5F1 cabinet which was posted last month and its still not here yet !
AW!!

I thought the OP already had the OT bolted on! Better get some bolts and locking nuts pronto!

I ordered mine last night so .....i will wait now for at least a couple of weeks .I have to sort out transformers .Not sure what to do about a cab yet .I have a rather nice Emmy 105 speaker in an old peavey SS amp cab so may work round that .i want a proper tweed cab in the end though to keep it all classy .

I thought the OP already had the OT bolted on! Better get some bolts and locking nuts pronto!

Yea.... turns out I used the wrong screws :oops:
the screws were meant to be for the tube sockets and the OT screws are with the power transformer package thats yet to come :sad:

I ordered mine last night so .....i will wait now for at least a couple of weeks .I have to sort out transformers .Not sure what to do about a cab yet .I have a rather nice Emmy 105 speaker in an old peavey SS amp cab so may work round that .i want a proper tweed cab in the end though to keep it all classy .

I know of a good cab maker thats just started out and do excellent stuff at great prices but he doesnt do tweed just raw cabs.
pm me if you are interested

i love 5f1's, built a bunch, building yet another right now. enjoy yours, icy.

Have you done like hackworth1 did in the video I posted yesterday? H did a cardboard mock-up of the panels and did the wiring of the jacks, pot and lamp. Make a cardboard copy of the panels and do all the wiring with the components on the mock-up that you can. You can move things around easier while soldering things up. When done and the OT is installed in the chassis, just move the Assembly as a whole to the chassis. Any final solder joints that couldn't be done on the mock-up, can be done then.

Have you done like hackworth1 did in the video I posted yesterday? H did a cardboard mock-up of the panels and did the wiring of the jacks, pot and lamp. Make a cardboard copy of the panels and do all the wiring with the components on the mock-up that you can. You can move things around easier while soldering things up. When done and the OT is installed in the chassis, just move the Assembly as a whole to the chassis. Any final solder joints that couldn't be done on the mock-up, can be done then.

:shock: OH you are right ! gees I feel dumb !
I just did it all in the chassis instead of on a piece of cardboard....
It would have made things so much easier....
oh well live and learn :roll:

OK !
I'm back with the build !
The bolts for the OT arrived, still waiting on the PT

But I manage to bolt down the OT and did most of the wirings
Please help me check if there is anything horrifyingly wrong?

The wires on the tube socket pins are so close together.... would they arc across and short the circuit?

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/521559_10151826450335066_147335167_n.jpg
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s720x720/554753_10151826450450066_799151507_n.jpg
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s720x720/556397_10151826450640066_45834896_n.jpg

Your getting there, all seems ok. Did you use a 2 lug or 3 lug output jack? I always use the 3 lug. Also the wire from the center lug on the on/off switch to pin 7 on the 12AX7 is better off being shielded with the outer wiring going to ground on the left lug of the on/off switch. It can fly across the board, you don't need to "bury" it under the board.

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx217/telenut62/GA-5%20Champ/05052012679.jpg

I've used a 2 lug jack because thats what came with the kit,
I dont understand the shielding bit, so do I wrap around it with the ground wire ?
thx !

edit:

Oh now I can see a picture !
right ! maybe I'll just use a gibson type braided wire for that

OK !
I'm back with the build !
The bolts for the OT arrived, still waiting on the PT

But I manage to bolt down the OT and did most of the wirings
Please help me check if there is anything horrifyingly wrong?

The wires on the tube socket pins are so close together.... would they arc across and short the circuit?

IC,

It's looking good, fellow noob. :wink:

Nothing horrifying that I can see...

Pins have been that close together for some time. :mrgreen:

The problems occur when you have a 'tail' of wire, or even a single strand that physically touches the neighboring connection. My old eyes need a bit of help these days, so I usually get a magnifying glass, a tiny pen-light, and the smallest pair of snips, and look around each pin or connection. I snip off any 'tails' and make sure I know where it goes. I often use a thin pliers and hold one end, then make the snip. Those pieces can easily fly somewhere hidden (and BAD!) and cause shorts. This is part of my 'tidying up' procedure.

Can't wait to hear a good report!

A two lug jack needs a resistor to protect the output transformer if you accidentally switch on the amp without the speaker plugged in, refer to post #21

Ok ! My PT has arrived and I've got everything in there !

Please check to see if everything is ok before I switch it on and kill myself lol

telenut, I've tried looking for the resistor needed but my local electronic store dont have any resistors in stock !! So I'll try to remember to have it plugged in each time until the resistor arrives....

I have tried my best to make it look tidy....but failed...anyway...

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/598503_10151829712475066_400700847_n.jpg
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/527731_10151829712595066_369202635_n.jpg
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/575717_10151829712685066_343186152_n.jpg

I realised I got the lamp wrong, but I fixed it.

I followed the testing instructions on tube deport's pdf until step 22
after I installed the 6v6 I'm not sure where c4 is...
so I just plugged in a guitar but I'm getting no sound out of it :(
I failed....

If c4 is about the cap where it links to pin 8 of the 6v6 then I only have 8Volts across that....

I have triple checked but cant find any errors....should I go back and shorten every single connection ?

Here is better pics with lamp corrected

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/319869_10151829833650066_891930200_n.jpg
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s720x720/550790_10151829833995066_820820469_n.jpg
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/s720x720/185083_10151829834305066_338318051_n.jpg
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/533417_10151829835035066_735206292_n.jpg

Slow down, take a few steps back....which PT and OT did you get? That braided wire.....is the centre wire going from the switch then to the pin 7 and only the outer braid is to ground at the switch end? Check your input jacks again as I think you got your lugs a bit mixed up earlier, but it looks better now.

It is the classictone transformer
http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/581278_10151829712315066_1011737756_a.jpg

the braided wire should be going from centre lug to pin 7
and only the outter braid is touching ground

I've double checked the input now

I have now connected the braid to the output jack instead and made sure the wire is good
but still no sound :(

Is that the 18027? If so change to the 550V (red/white) taps, it's a better voltage. Which OT....18030 or 18301....because the red and blue wires are different orientation. So with no tubes plugged in, what are the voltages at the rectifier...lugs 2,8...4,6
The 6V6...3,4,8 The 12AX7...1,3,6,8

Yes it is the 18027, the OT is....I cant tell what the OT is.....
it has a sticker on the top saying P-T31 MCD 12-15

I realised I got the lamp wrong, but I fixed it.

I followed the testing instructions on tube deport's pdf until step 22
after I installed the 6v6 I'm not sure where c4 is...
so I just plugged in a guitar but I'm getting no sound out of it :(
I failed....

Nah, man, you haven't failed! You just haven't ironed out the kinks yet! :grin:

But I really know how you feel. Have a cuppa and look at things with 'fresh eyes.'

I'm gonna be doing pre-check on my 5E3 tomorrow, and kinda dreading it.

Be well!

You can leave the 630V taps as we're just checking for now. Be a good exercise

and do I check the voltages of those pins to ground?

Yes it is the 18027, the OT is....I cant tell what the OT is.....
it has a sticker on the top saying P-T31 MCD 12-15

Ok no worries we got a 50/50 chance it's wired right :wink:

The voltage drops as I hold one end to a pin and one end to ground...

oh I just realise I need AC....

on 5Y3: pin 4,6 is 670V
pin 2,8 is 5V

6v6 3,4,8 is all 0?

by the way.... do I need to connect a speaker when doing this?

ok plug in everything...especially the speaker, now check the B+ at the first filter cap, power and pre-amp lugs....what kind of 6V6 are you using new or NOS?

Its a NOS

ok all plugged in !

Ok fine, once things work out it may be better to use the lower secondary tap

voltage across first cap to ground is : 409V

where is the power and preamp lugs?

pin8 of 6v6 is 8.35V
pin 3 of 12AX7 is 1.08v

Ok B+ is pretty high and the 6V6 pin 8 should be around 18V, pin 3,8 on the 12Ax7 should be around 1.5V. So swap the 630V taps to the 550V

but there are 2 red white wires?
So do I cut out the connections on brown and black white and connect 2 red white together?

No, swap the red wires for the red/white's to the rectifier

Just checked your OT...

http://www.tubesandmore.com/products/P-T31

You are ok....red to board, blue to tube

done,

now
5Y3: pin 8 358V
6v6: pin 8 7.2V
12AX7: pin 3 - 0.98V
pin 8 - 0.78

Check the actual values of the resistors, especially the 1.5K cathode ones

The one on the far right? Its 1.57k

Keep going check em all

oh dear.... the one connecting pin8 of 6v6 is only 1.5k....

everything else is right except for that 1.5 k instead of 22k as in the layout....

So I'm missing a 22k resistor ! but got 3x1.5k instead :(

but the coding is right....its a red red orange gold

I dont understand.... across that resistor is 1.5k across the two resistors is 0 ?
Thats the 4th turret board post to pin 8 of 6v6 is 0 !

And the pair of 68k is only 34k

Ok that is your negative feeback resistor, you can take it out of the circuit by lifting the wire to the output jack. Try that and take more measurements. Even try the guitar first if you want.

You may have a short there?

Ech 68K is 34K?

took out the resistor still no sound

:(

yes each 68k is only 34k

Yet it's marked Blue, Grey, Orange?...68K Anyway that won't cause you not to have sound, your cathode bias is out of whack and something is causing it

I have now connected the braid to the output jack instead and made sure the wire is good
but still no sound :(

Explain this further...or better still go back to the orig single wire from the switch to pin 7 for now.

Ok back from dinner and continue
I have now replaced the braided wire with normal wire but problem is still the same ....

Ok which of the three turrets that combine the 22K & 1.5K resistors go to ground. If you say you've measured across the two resistors you should get a combined resistance total not 0 ohms. So maybe there's a short there...if not I'm out of ideas lol
White flag time

The first cap to ground now only have 277V

I have a feeling that my multimeter might be out of wack

Are the tubes lighting up?...any hum at all?

The tubes light up but no hums at all

Looks like you have a short somewhere, trying lifting the board a little bit.....it's poss there's a wire under there touching the chassis.....safety first chop sticks only. I'm off to bed....hope we have good news in the morn.

I've just lifted the board abit but still nothing.....
its so strange because I dont even have hums...

Hang in there icywind. I too ran into some trouble with my recent build a few weeks ago. There are plenty of good folks on here to help, you will get it working if you keep at it. I found that at one point I just needed to relax and forget about the amp for a few days, then go back with a fresh set of eyes to tackle it again. I was frustrated, but prevailed in the end.

What I did was print off the weber layout diagram, got my DMM and a colored hi-liter felt pen. I checked every wire individually for continuity at each end of every connection. Then I hi-lited each wire as I checked them all. When every wire was colored in, I knew I had them all correct. I then proceeded to check every ground connection for continuity. If you have tubes heating up, that's a good sign. As mentioned, you may well have a ground short somewhere.

What did you use for instructions? The Weber layout? I screwed up there, as I thought the tube sockets on the layout were drawn as viewed from the bottom of the board. They were not. They were drawn as seen from looking down into the chassis on the top side of the sockets.

I used the tubedeport instructions,

in fact its not true to say theres no hum, because there is, just not loud
and yes all three tubes glow

feels so disappointed :cry:

oh dear.... the one connecting pin8 of 6v6 is only 1.5k....

In fact it should only be 470R - 500R (and it ideally needs to be a 2W min; or more comfortably, a 5W resistor)

You need to take all the idle voltages (at each filter cap node, and at each plate, screen, grid, and cathode).

The 6V6 plate should be around 340-360 ish and the screen should be 50-60volts below that. The cathode should be around 18-20V (with a 470R-500R cathode resistor).

The pre-amp node should be 260-280V or so. The pre-amp tube plates should each be 150-160V or so, and the cathodes each around 1.5V or so. There should be 0VDC on the grids of all of the tubes.

Get a signal through the amp first. Sorting out the hum comes later.

I think the multi-meter just died on me......
could high voltages kill multimeters?
whatever resistance I put to it, it now says -1

Do I measure the voltages of all that without tubes? and measure to the ground?

Does the meter have a fresh battery? (and it needs to be on the VDC setting) (and it needs to be on the hundreds/thousands of volts (the bigger the better) setting when you're measuring hundreds of volts, and the tens of volts setting when you're only measuring a couple of volts etc)

You take the idle voltages with the tubes in. (But correct that 6V6 cathode resistor first). And yes, the voltages are measured between each point and the chassis/ground. Make sure your chassis is securely bolted with a good connection to the mains ground. (You don't want a floating chassis)

And don't take voltages on any tube amp late at night - its too risky

Cap 1: 264V
Cap 2: 133V
Cap 3: 110V
Cap 4: 4V

6v6 plate is lug 3 right? its -4V .... how can it be negative !

pin 4 is 134V
pin 5 is -14.9V

Preamp plate is 1 and 6?
pin 1 is 60V
pin 6 is 67V

Cap 1: 264V
Cap 2: 133V
Cap 3: 110V
Cap 4: 4V

Those voltages seem to be on the low side. A conventional 5F1 only has 3 filter caps - I'm assuming by 'Cap 1' you mean the reservoir cap (that supplies the OT/6V6-plate node)? What is 'cap 4' for? (Without seeing pics of what you've done, its hard to tell how you've hooked things up).

You may have the wrong-value plate resistors on the 12AX7 (should be 100kOhm each), or you may have connected your amp's power supply up oddly.


6v6 plate is lug 3 right? its -4V .... how can it be negative !

pin 4 is 134V
pin 5 is -14.9V

Preamp plate is 1 and 6?
pin 1 is 60V
pin 6 is 67V

Pin 3 of the 6V6 should be 340-360 or so, but sort out the power supply (filter caps and dropping resistors) and the 12AX7 plate resistors first - the low voltages on Pins 1 and 6 indicate that the pre-amp stages are drawing way too much current

I just measured across the first 4 component that have a direction from left to right.....

ok its 1:30am.... I got zipped by something just then......
better sleep before I get killed .....

sigh, hope this amp is still save-able

OUch! What did I just say? Sleepiness raises the chances of doing something careless. The best time to work on tube amps is when you're wide awake and alert. One mistake can be all it takes.

Now, if you've been zapped, you should get your ticker checked out ASAP - they can at least monitor you for the first few hours to see if there're going to be complications. When that happened to me the last time, I got myself to the doc within an hour or so just to make sure.

The amp will wait

Woah...Be careful. One hand stays behind your back at all times. I built an extra lead for my DMM with an aligator clip on one end. It clips to the chassis and stays put. Only my right hand pokes around with the positive lead to get readings. I have yet to get one, but I think standing on a rubber mat is a good idea too.

When I was about 14 I stuck my hand into the back of a Watkins Westminster amp and got a severe shock .I was OK but had learned the hard way .My dad died when I was 11 so I didnt have much guidance in life for that sort of thing just learned as I went along .My Uncle ,a works electrician ,tested circuits by sticking his hands across them .I saw him do it to a light socket . .If he got a shock it was working OK .He lived until 95 .Didnt have much hair left though and what he had stood on end .:grin:

In the USA we can't go to the doctor or ER without incurring a big expense.

Yahoo Mail is down. That never happened before. I can see you have written but the Yahoo mail system closes before I can get in.

Looks like the guys here are getting you squared away.

Double check that you have 100kOhm for the 12AX7 plate resistors (and not some lesser resistance like 100 Ohm). Measure them with your R-meter

Icy

Don't allow setbacks to discourage you or keep you from finishing your build. You've flown through this build and I know you must be itching to finish and plug in. Maybe take a day or two off and regroup? Come back to it with a fresh mind and a fresh set of eyes. This may provide a bit of clarity that could otherwise be lost in the fog of anticipation and focus on getting finished. Hang in there, your build is looking good!

Morning my friend, glad your stll alive....welcome to the dark side of amp building. Buy one of these....

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170821138783?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

It won't save you from a capacitor zap, but can stop you getting a 240V hit.


I've checked the previous pics of your board wiring and it looks all ok, did you mount the second blank board under it in the chassis? Can you calibrate your DVM with a 9V battery or check the mains supply in a power board if your confident (Black lead in ground - Red in the left slot - DVM on 600VAC) It should read 240V min to 250V approx. Before things got pear shaped you had 358V on pin 8 of the rectifier...this is a good reading it should not have changed.

Print out this layout and only use this to cross check the voltages, please...

https://taweber.powweb.com/store/5f1_layout.jpg

You will see the voltages given at various points, the first to look at is the first filter cap..340V DC.

Now if your DVM is reading correct and set at 600VDC place the black lead on the chassis (ground) then the red lead on the spot where is says 340V (the lead wire of the + end of the cap) Write it down and if your reading appears close, continue along the other test points.

Establise that the green 470ohm resistor is correct, by placing the DVM leads on either lead wire. Double check the 22K resistor that you reckon was 1.5K

Check the 100K resistors as well

Good morning everyone !

Thanks for all the encouragement and help !

The first thing I did is ran the meter with a 9volt battery and it says 2V !!
So yes my multimeter is shoot !
So all the readings can well be wrong....
I've just ordered another one on ebay and let see what happens when it arrives

Hooray....thank goodness your still alive. Now would be a good time to check your wiring and redo the pre-amp ground wires, as I see you have them going to a bolt on the PT... along with the output jack ground. Didn't Dave give you some buss wire? There's a thread with very clear photos of how to set out the grounding on a 5F1 from Dave...hopefully he can re-post the link up here.

Good morning everyone !

Thanks for all the encouragement and help !

The first thing I did is ran the meter with a 9volt battery and it says 2V !!
So yes my multimeter is shoot !
So all the readings can well be wrong....
I've just ordered another one on ebay and let see what happens when it arrives

Ummm...

I hope you tried more than one battery? Because maybe the battery IS only 2 Volts! :smile:

If your MM showed correct outlet voltage (Australia is 240VAC, right? Actually 230 V with a tolerance of +10% -6%), then it's probably working. If you touch the red and black leads together on the "ohm" setting, you should get 0.00 and then come back up to a miniscule number. Batteries are kind of 'iffy,' as they do run down. Maybe try the DCV on a car? A healthy car battery should show 12.5VDC or thereabouts when resting.

And best of luck on your build! You have a bunch of really great guys and gals here that know their stuff. :grin:

I did saw the bus wire method, but doing that I will need to drill the chassis and bolt down the clip thing, but I dont have a drill nor a bolt....
I could do it with one of the tube socket screws but is it not a good idea to ground near tube sockets?

I've now tested the multimeter with a few resistors and all in fact putting the red and black together goes -1 so it is dead :(

I added a ground bus wire like this, shown below here. No need to drill the chassis. Mount it to the ground jack on #1 input jack. I mistakenly wired my buss wire up to both input jacks. After the photo was taken I removed the buss wire form the second input jack. Hackworth pointed my error as it should only go to one jack, not both. It creates a ground loop. I had no problem placing the ground buss after I had the circuit board mounted. I later learned it is easier to do before you mount the board. But I was happy doing it after. Your 5F1 looks a little tighter than my 5F2A, but hopefully you should be fine to do the same.

Don't mean to criticize but I sorta thought the orange and red wires to your 6V6GT are a little long. They are close to each other, and looping and may cause noise. Might be worth changing it up, shortening those 2 wires. No?

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-liC1wmfe0Es/T78AjCGM72I/AAAAAAAAA6E/_brGNNLZWqc/s800/IMGP3576.JPG

Nice ! That looks good, ok I'll do that too !

I sanded the red coating off the whole strip. Bend a 90 deg and slide it into the lug hole by your power supply capacitors. (left side of photo above, near red wire). Cut a short piece off the buss wire, straight, and slide it into the lug at the far right of the circuit board photo above. Leave it long enough to wrap it around the long straight, horizontal buss bar. Small needle nose pliers are your friend here.Then solder the connections in place.

Here's how I did a 5F1....

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx217/telenut62/20062012760.jpg

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx217/telenut62/20062012758.jpg

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx217/telenut62/20062012759.jpg

Run the buss from the 3rd filter cap to the first pre-amp turret, up around to the channel 2 jack. Because the jacks are grounded to the chassis there's no need for a further ground lead.

How is your progress, icy wind? No rush. Give us a casual update at your earliest convenience.

Lots of great info has been coming from the other members. Thanks to all. Great Forum here. Good People.

I'm now trying to shorten all the overly long wires and tidy them up while installing the bus wire. I see that the next time I do this it will be heaps better !!! its just so messy right now....

Is it needed to strip the red coat off the bus wire?

Oh yes

What about the voltage issues?

Waiting on a new meter

Yes the meter should be here tmr or friday (hopefully)

ok ! After taking a day off, I'm back !!
now that I've had the "shocking" experience before I'm alittle worried.... so I had a clip on the chassis the other end clips onto a 100k ohms resistor and poked it around expecting sparks everywhere.... but nothing happened.... I guess its all discharged !

So first thing to do is redo the ground !

A good idea on any build is to install a permanent 220k 2W resistor in parallel with the reservoir filter cap. This acts as a bleeder resistor that automatically (and reasonably quickly) discharges the filter caps when the amp is switched off (but you should always check them with your Vmeter just in case).

Also when taking voltages, its safer to use meter leads with insulated gator clips or test clip/grabbers, and put these onto the parts of the circuit that you're measuring before you switch the amp on, so you don't risk probes slipping. (And then you switch the amp off, and unplug it from the wall - just to be sure, before you disconnect the leads).

Also don't work on a concrete floor - concrete is a very good conductor.

I'm working on carpet right now :) coz its so cold downstairs....
I have just reflowed all the nodes on the board, I realise a few is just siting on top not sticking...

stripping the bus wire now

I'm working on carpet right now :) coz its so cold downstairs....
I have just reflowed all the nodes on the board, I realise a few is just siting on top not sticking...

stripping the bus wire now

Sometimes it's hard to get those turrets to stick up top. Use flux! Don't 'cook' those components by giving too much heat. If you have a heat sink, use it. Worst case, a rubber band on the handle of a light pair of needle-nose pliers can be your heat sink, but the aluminum spring-pinch is best. Since you're done now, get a couple for next job. And flux!

Be warm, be safe! It's cold Down Under! :wink:

ok....so I've got the last 3-4 hrs re-doing everything
I made sure all the nodes on the board is good, placed a layer of insulation under the board.... I've shortened all the wires and made it look neat....
All hopes are high, plugged it in and got nothing ......
I'm about to burst into tears......

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/599117_10151837111645066_1823565675_n.jpg
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/252343_10151837111795066_664517569_n.jpg
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/282315_10151837111925066_1216820995_n.jpg
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/s720x720/269200_10151837112090066_853099638_n.jpg

Look close at the heater wires coming off of the ilumnated indicator thingy.
sommat just doesn't look quite right to me. Compare your photo to one of Dave's and see if it looks different.

It goes green heater on one side, green from PT on one side and the other two join in the middle
I think its the same, just jam packed instead

yes those heaters don't look right. You should have your two green heater wires from the PT going to each side of the lamp, and then two wires on each side of that lamp going to the filaments of each power tube socket. They are wired in parallel throughout the whole amp. Keep them going in phase with each other for the power tubes at least. ie: same wire to the same pin on each tube. Preamp tubes don't matter.

I dont understand.....so the PT goes onto both sides? and heater wires from sockets go to the middle ? sorry ><

I have just made sure that pin 9 of 12AX7 is connected to pin 7 of 6v6

Look at this image. It one of Dave's that he posted about one of his kits or sommat, it doesn't matter. But a single picture is worth a thousand words.

Yours could be correct, camera angles and all make things look differnet then they are.
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/1119/001vq.jpg

Isnt that same as mine? Without the resistor though
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/s720x720/250878_10151837354255066_1884263630_n.jpg

I stand corrected I guess. I have never done it that way or seen it done that way before. I may have to go through one of his threads to see how he's got all the other tubes connected. Because to me that looks like that picture is wired in series... but there are other tubes to be in consideration and I don't understand wiring part of it in series and then moving on to the other tubes. I just think that I'm missing something. I could see wiring the whole heater circuit in series I guess. Can someone enlighten me?

Looks good to me in this photo, The other photo you posted looked suspect but like I said, camera angels. - keep on truckin'

Any chance the transformers are not working ?
Or caps ?
I did some research and seems like people usually get noise but mine is dead quiet :(

sigh !! I even went out to buy a drill so I would do that hole for the bus wire and doing the groundings and stuff !!!

yeah that looks fine. I just have never done it that way before I guess. I went through one of hackworth's builds and saw what he did. I've never used that center pin on a lamp before. What is the benefit of that?

Since we are trouble shooting I would say you are going to have to wait till you get your multimeter before proceeding too much. You should test the voltage on your heaters. Does the lamp light up? The tubes? I wouldn't poke around in there until you have discharged everything obviously... and I like to take a couple voltage measurements to MAKE SURE that the caps are discharged before I touch anything.

I did some research and seems like people usually get noise but mine is dead quiet :(

have you tried a different speaker yet?

the lamp lights up, the tubes glow everything seems normal.... just no sound :(
hope the multimeter comes tmr

Yeah we need some accurate voltages.

The other thing you need to do is use the R-meter to go through all the amp's DC connections to make sure there's continuity where there should be continuity, and no continuity where there shouldn't be any.

Also make sure the tubes are fully seated, that burnt me on my 5e3 build. the fit was very tight.

Something special arrived at the doorstep !!!
And its not just a new multimeter!!!

What? What? You're killing us over here...Now it's time, we have to go to bed and wonder.

come on spit it out, what's on the door step now?

Its the speaker cab !!!

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s720x720/550403_10151839475220066_1606204725_n.jpg

But bad news is..... the speaker is hitting the transformer so I had to slide the speaker down and its now holding by tape....

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/545149_10151839475070066_222964911_n.jpg
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/579945_10151839474740066_691501500_n.jpg
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/547300_10151839474580066_48629044_n.jpg

Ok I started taking voltages with the new meter

from left to right on the turret board

16uF cap : 357V
8uF cap : 184V
8 uF cap : 158V
25 uF cap : 7.55V
node between 1.5k and 22k resistor : 0.77V
0.022uF cap : 102.5V
0.022uF cap : 93.4V
25uF cap : 0.965 V

So seems like some are different to what weber suggests in the diagram

So basically the B+ is fine but there's a voltage drop from spec on the rest of the board. Apart from a short somewhere, Ive got no idea, pass this one on to the amp gurus...:confused:

where could the short be ?

Here are my findings

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/421549_10151839651180066_1536188195_n.jpg

Have you got some higher res gutshots of just the chassis?

All I can say is that my 5f1 doesn't have near as much voltage drop between the big cap and the first 8uf. I too get about 350 b+ then it drops to about 290-300v at the first 8uf and about 250-260 at the second 8uf.

Mine isn't apart right now but those voltages fairly accurate from memory.

I'd started looking at the grounding on the filter caps, the big cap usually gets grounded at the PT bolt, where are the other two grounded?
That't why a gutshot is so helpful.

I've tried to make it as close as possible without losing focus

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/s720x720/246523_10151839717280066_970551749_n.jpg
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/532669_10151839717450066_2137278604_n.jpg
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/481231_10151839717620066_683092244_n.jpg
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/s720x720/208875_10151839717710066_1434547478_n.jpg
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/554677_10151839717845066_170925744_n.jpg
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/581273_10151839717985066_1521892864_n.jpg
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/599671_10151839718075066_1179757067_n.jpg

I'd started looking at the grounding on the filter caps, the big cap usually gets grounded at the PT bolt, where are the other two grounded?
That't why a gutshot is so helpful.


I have grounded them to the bus wire

See my list of next suggestions on the ampage forum

I've checked all continuity is good :)

Icy,

Everything looks to be connected correctly as far as I can see from your pictures.

I hate to ask, but did you check the backside connections for shorts or bad connections? Do you have a picture? I know how painful that question is, my friend, because I got asked it, and hadn't :cry: In turning things around, I got turned around, and connected to a wrong turret. Before that I came to the conclusion that I had a bad part somewhere. Mostly, I didn't want to pull the board out. After a night of bad sleep, I woke up the next morning and pulled the board, and found my mistake. All my parts were good. Now I always take a picture of the backside before I mount the board.

You shouldn't have half your voltage on the 2nd filter cap. :sad:

Have you checked inside the speaker plug, it's easy to get the hot and ground wires to touch by mistake.

I've pulled the board out last time when I redo the wires.
I then placed a piece of cardboard underneath so it cant be shorting
And continuity is ok so I guess the wiring underneath is ok.

The speaker plug I tried with another head and its ok

Any chance of a bad OT or PT ?

OT yes

Anything I could do to test the OT ?

maybe I'll pull the board out again then ...:( :( :( :(

could it be the fuse ? Or the switch itself?

ok guys, we have deduced that the OT is down....so I'll wait for a replacement

Simplify everything you can. Let the ground for the speaker jack make ground at the jack itself. The jack will make ground at that point.

That shielded wire on your volume pot to pin seven could be shorting. Replace it with a regular insulated wire.

When using shielded wire, only one end of the shield goes to ground. The other end remains open. The center of the wire is the conductor. The conductor and the shield must never make contact otherwise there be a direct short.

ok guys, we have deduced that the OT is down....so I'll wait for a replacement


About your Vmeter setting - it needs to be set to AC volts to do that test

So back to the ol' drawing board, unless something amiss also shows up in the AC reading....but as I said in the other thread, is it poss he has a bad tube?

About your Vmeter setting - it needs to be set to AC volts to do that test

Yes it was on AC setting

So back to the ol' drawing board, unless something amiss also shows up in the AC reading....but as I said in the other thread, is it poss he has a bad tube?

But ive tried those tubes on my ceriatone champ and its all good

Yes it was on AC setting

In the pic the DVM was on the DC setting

isnt the bottom setting the AC setting? has a wave kinda line

The other voltage setting have a straight line on top of a dotted line

Hard to see as the pic is blurry but it looks like V-, but I believe you

Yes the wavey line is the AC setting, and the straight line with the dots underneath is the DC setting. So if you're only getting 1.2VAC across the primary with 5VAC across the secondary, the OT is fried I'm afraid. It may never have been any good to begin with.

let me do this again just to verify
and I will try another tube as well

Ok....tried it again... I was hoping that it wasnt the OT's problem and it could spring to life....but no miracle.... :(
got to wait a longggggg time before the replacement OT will come.....


http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/s720x720/205227_10151842471165066_1004943271_n.jpg
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/547354_10151842471275066_838445890_n.jpg

I have a brand new Heyboer 4 ohm OT. Very small package. Rushed down there how long would it take?

It will be 2 weeks at least assuming it takes the same time as the kit coming here :(
sometimes getting parcels from USA could get up to 4 weeks.....

The wait is burning me !!!
I'm playing my lil night train through this cab and pretend it is my champ working !!!! :twisted:
Wonder if the champ will sound better then the lil night train :roll:

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/198279_10151843204600066_64118511_n.jpg

The OT arrived !!!!!
lets get to work!!

.....well???

Its the speaker cab !!!

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s720x720/550403_10151839475220066_1606204725_n.jpg


Wow! I really like the cab, it's a gorgeous colour. Is that pine?

I've just replaced the OT and plugged in my clapton strat and wow thats what I call killer tone!!
No buzz no noise just great tone! Responds great to the mid boost!!
I'm so happy!!!

Wow! I really like the cab, it's a gorgeous colour. Is that pine?

I think its ork from memory
It wasnt that dark, its just the coat of stain

Well thank goodness for that...welcome to the 5F1 club. Now take some volt readings like you did before and see what kind of bias you have.

I think its ork from memory

nanu nanu

Really glad you hung in there and made it work! Congrats!

Really glad you hung in there and made it work! Congrats!

Congrats, Icy!!

Hehe! Glad you hung in there and made it *mork.* :wink:

Its playing so well that I think I want another one !

i'm about to do a champ 600 to 5f1 conversion and at first this thread scared me. glad you got it fixed!

i'm about to do a champ 600 to 5f1 conversion and at first this thread scared me. glad you got it fixed!

Same here. I've been following this thread closely because I've been thinking about doing my first 5f1 build soon. Really glad to hear it ended up being a simple fix. I have decent soldering skills but haven't worked with schematics for close to 20 years when I was an electronics tech in the army. Back then they put us through a crash course on electronics repair so much of what I learned has since been forgotten.
It's great to hear you're enjoying your new Champ there Icy! That cab looks sweet! :cool:

For everyone that is thinking of building one,
my advice is, "Just go for it" !!!
My building experience is close to zero, I havent even built a pedal before this and I have never worked with any circuitry stuff before. I even take my guitars to my tech when I needed new pots and caps.
As long as you follow the instructions, watch all the Youtube tips, take it step by step and posts lots of photos here, there shouldnt be any problems :)
Its now by far my best small amp !

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Posting build pics on this forum (best) or by email (second best) is the thing to do.

That way, errors or ommissions can be nipped in the bud.