I always thought the "Battery" thing was poppycock...

I keep hearing about how the type of battery in a vintage style Fuzz makes a difference. I've always used alkaline batteries because they last longer. But I keep reading about the "Zinc-Carbide" batteries were better for Fuzz. Yesterday at the 99cent store I just happened to see some, so I bought one. Installed it into my Joe Bonamassa Fuzz Face (didn't play last nite). So today I started to play at home and wondered why my rig sounded soo awesome, couldn't figure it out until I remembered the battery....WTF, the Fuzz sounded crisp and clean and responsive..............am I crazy??

I keep hearing about how the type of battery in a vintage style Fuzz makes a difference. I've always used alkaline batteries because they last longer. But I keep reading about the "Zinc-Carbide" batteries were better for Fuzz. Yesterday at the 99cent store I just happened to see some, so I bought one. Installed it into my Joe Bonamassa Fuzz Face (didn't play last nite). So today I started to play at home and wondered why my rig sounded soo awesome, couldn't figure it out until I remembered the battery....WTF, the Fuzz sounded crisp and clean and responsive..............am I crazy??

Eric Johnson says you can CLEARLY measure the difference in batteries when you put it on an oscilliscope.

I don't think you are crazy. Maybe your ears are:mrgreen:

If you can tell a difference, then there is a difference.

I've allways thought zinc carbide is just an old school battery that got a little phased out by alkalines and rechargables. So..in other words, its probably perfect with your fuzz because thats what was widely used when it was developed.

You know...its the same but different. :razz:

Definitely a difference. I was amazed to learn that too - sounds like such foolishness the first time you hear that rumor. But it's true. They're best in wahs and O/Ds, distortions, fuzzes. Not so much for delays and other modulation pedals. (Part of this is sound, the other part is energy consumption -- my CC delay and my Peterson tuner will consume one of these in about 2 minutes, literally.) I once found a side-by-side soundifle comparison somewhere. However, like all of this stuff, it's subtle. But there is a difference.

Has something to do with the way the energy is discharged over time. I think initially non-alkaline batteries were recommended for things like remote controls and emergency flashlights (the ones in your kitchen cabinet that go unused for years) because they take forever to fully discharge in items that don't use a lot of battery power.

It's the best thing going in gear - makes your stuff sound better AND it's cheaper. As you noted, these batteries are like 99 cents for a two-pack at most stores. Eveready and/or Heavy Duty.

The only things you can measure on a battery are the voltage, and the amount of current (amps) it can deliver, and its "internal resistance".
Zinc-carbon, alkaline, NiCd, NiMh and Lithium types all have different voltages and different current capacities. The latter varies with make and model. Current probably immaterial in a pedal however if you exceed the current draw of the battery then the voltage drops.
The internal resistance is more difficult to explain, again it varies with types, simplified the battery sees itself as a load and may manifest with changing load.

Eric Johnson says you can CLEARLY measure the difference in batteries when you put it on an oscilliscope.

The new EJ sig Fuzz Face is biased at 3VDC, when the "audio circuit standard" is 4.5VDC.

So you don't even need to mess with drained batteries with that fuzz.

But the carbon zincs actually have a resistive load to them that alkalines do not, and at least one smart guy decided to build a battery clip with a series resistor so that he could use an alkaline and get the same effect. It's literally just a pair of battery clips with a series resistor added. A solution that is as low tech as what makes a fuzz sound good in many instances.

The phrase I heard describing the carbon battery effect was 'sag', as in the voltage drops slightly under load and affects the overall tone. I would think this applies to older pedals as I would expect newer designs to require less power. Nothing like 'new and improving' the cool right out of the design!


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Eric Johnson says you can CLEARLY measure the difference in batteries when you put it on an oscilliscope.

Yeah, he actually has his pedals set up so that he can put the battery in the unit in a specific way.
I have to admit that I don't think I could ever hear anything like that, but he can.
So there is nothing surprising about the type of battery that you use influencing your sound. It is all about access to power.
An Alkaline battery has the same charge but the way in which it produces the charge is different from other style of batteries.

The new EJ sig Fuzz Face is biased at 3VDC, when the "audio circuit standard" is 4.5VDC.

So you don't even need to mess with drained batteries with that fuzz.

But the carbon zincs actually have a resistive load to them that alkalines do not, and at least one smart guy decided to build a battery clip with a series resistor so that he could use an alkaline and get the same effect. It's literally just a pair of battery clips with a series resistor added. A solution that is as low tech as what makes a fuzz sound good in many instances.

11 do you have any info on how someone might obtain this clip?

am I crazy??

I cetainly don't think so. Before the internet even became commonplace in the home, let alone the rumour machine it is today, I noticed that I preferred the sound of even modulation pedals with batteries.

I also decided I disliked relying on a self-discharging cell to provide power just when I needed it, so bought a power supply and had the best consistency and reliablility I could have, but I still know that there is that few percent extra to be had tone-wise with a batttery, and I have compared Alkaline with Zinc-Carbon, and there is (to my ears) quite a clear difference in an isolated listening situation, at least.

The new EJ sig Fuzz Face is biased at 3VDC, when the "audio circuit standard" is 4.5VDC.

So you don't even need to mess with drained batteries with that fuzz.

But the carbon zincs actually have a resistive load to them that alkalines do not, and at least one smart guy decided to build a battery clip with a series resistor so that he could use an alkaline and get the same effect. It's literally just a pair of battery clips with a series resistor added. A solution that is as low tech as what makes a fuzz sound good in many instances.

Interesting, what amount of resistance or does that depend on the circuit?

"Eric Johnson says you can CLEARLY measure the difference in batteries when you put it on an oscilliscope."

for a second there I thought it was going to read,,, put it on your tongue.... ;)

ZVex said that there is so little in a fuzz circuit the battery can be considered part of it.

I'm sorry if I offend someone here, but Eric Johnson is so boring. And so is his music.

He's so much into these technical things… "putting a pedal on top of a piece makes it sound better…" type of thing.

I first read about him (actually him talking) in guitar mags. Then you think "this guy must be really good, cos you know, he knows and says a lot of things". When you listen, it's just boring. Sure he is a great guitar player, better then I'll ever be; but there's no soul in his music.

I'm against comparing musicians but I don't know if the great GREAT guys are/were THAT worried about the stuff EJ is so concerned about.

Sorry again for the fans. I don't have to emphasize that this just my opinion.

About the OP, I don't think you're crazy. I think you truly heard the difference, I'm just not sure if you'd hear it if you hadn't read about it beforehand.

11 do you have any info on how someone might obtain this clip?

I have to say that I never bookmarked the thing when I read it. If I bookmarked every last little thing, I'd spend the rest of my life trying to categorize it all.

The amount of info just on the Fuzz Face alone (on the web) is stunning. Such a simple circuit, and still so relevant in the 21st century. Not only that, but the present holder of the actual name has done IMO a damn good job of releasing three excellent sig variations, each quite different from the other. And to sweeten the deal, the sister company under the umbrella also offers the excellent MXR Classic 108 Fuzz, which utilizes a bit of what you will find in the 3 sig Dunlop models.

Anyway, I think the battery clip thing was more of a simple DIY deal. I honestly don't remember the resistor value that the guy used for resistive load with an alkaline. If you think of what a simple deal the starve control is on many of these pedals, it might even make more sense to build one with a trimpot - the heck with the "correct" carbon zinc load. That way, you could tweak it for lithiums or rechargables.

You could even build a DIY box and put the "carbon footprint" knob topside. It's like the "secret SRV series output cap" that some folks simply build into a cable instead of putting it in the guitar or the amp.

I'm sure someone will capitalize on these things with commercial mass produced products eventually, but for now they are just "mojo kludges."

I'm against comparing musicians but I don't know if the great GREAT guys are/were THAT worried about the stuff EJ is so concerned about.

Some musicians sweat their gear choices. Others could care less. Neither is right or wrong, just more the characteristics of any individual.

And you have to remember that part of it is what we read, not what we were directly told. So you are getting a translation of things. I think the interviewers and magazines have partially "built the image" of EJ into who he is. I'm not saying that he hasn't made some strange statements (from my perception), but I don't get hung up on what he says like some folks do.

I just know that the EJ sig fuzz is cool enough to get my panties in a bunch, and that just about never happens with me any more. I could care less that it has anyone's name attached to it - I simply like what it does. And for the record, it's not magic. It's basically a recipe, and it's considerably different from what so many FF builders have been offering as "proper earth shattering FF tone."

I don't think EJ is bad, but I think it REALLY helps to be a guitar player if you want to listen to his stuff regularly. At the same time, he has some neat ways of getting what are essentially low tech ways of getting his sound. He could insist on completely new pedal designs and someone would gladly build them, but it is still mainly the Fuzz Face, a Dyna Comp, and stuff like that. When you boil it down to that, it makes it easier (for me) to just ignore any comments about differences of battery brand, wire polarity, shallow Strat body routs, whatever...

But please remember that "the battery thing" is not an EJ thing. It's nothing new, and super common. The only challenge is that using disposable batteries is IMO just wasteful, so now we have to find a way to simulate it, unless you don't give a crap about contributing more unnecessary stuff to a landfill. Billy Gibbons or Duane Allman may not have had a choice in '70, that's all.

Well, the issue is bigger than Eric Johnson.
He's just the guy that gets the press.
Allan Holdsworth is known for being very particular
due to the very minute things he hears. So was
Jerry Garcia. His road tech, Steve Parish once mentioned
how Garcia would mention the house power had dropped
by so many volts. everyone thought he was nuts until
Parish finally went and put a meter on the house power.
He reported that Jerry was usually within a couple of numbers
of the number he would give as having dropped.

There are others I could relate, but I think it's safe to say
there are plenty of players with "radar ears" they just don't
get the attention EJ does. I hear a pronounced difference
between brass ended cables and silver\chrome plated ends.
I thought I was nuts until I found others who reported the same thing.

Hearing the type of battery in a fuzz seems totally reasonable.

Duane Alllman new this in his pre-Allman Bros. studio days- He'd use a Strat/Tele and Fuzz Face with the 'almost dead' battery

I'll have to try this with my First Act Distortion pedal that I got from Toys R Us. I may have a real sleeper on my hands!

My local pedal builder tells me to use the zinc in his fuzzes, says they last a lot longer than alkalines. They sound good to my ears.

I remember reading about this many years ago. I tried it and there was a difference. Wondering why I measured the voltage out on some fresh battereies. I don't remember the exact numbers but IIRC the alkylines put out more than 9V while the zinc put out less than 9V. I concluded the difference was what I was hearing. This was not an in depth technical experiment using hundreds of batteries of different brands. It was just a couple of batteries(Eveready and Duracell) from a fresh shipment at the local hardware store. In the end I agree with 11Guage, I'd rather not make trash for the landfill. I choose to ignore the difference and use a power supply.

Hearing the type of battery in a fuzz seems totally reasonable.

I thought that EJ's statement was pretty wacked out when I first heard it, when I was like 16? But now that I have some old FF stuff, the battery really does make a difference. That and my Tonebender are the only pedals I will use batteries for, cause I really like the way they sound with that diminishing voltage.

Telefunken starts the coolest threads.:cool:

I thought that EJ's statement was pretty wacked out when I first heard it, when I was like 16? But now that I have some old FF stuff, the battery really does make a difference. That and my Tonebender are the only pedals I will use batteries for, cause I really like the way they sound with that diminishing voltage.

Telefunken starts the coolest threads.:cool:

THANX!!!!

The new EJ sig Fuzz Face is biased at 3VDC, when the "audio circuit standard" is 4.5VDC.

So you don't even need to mess with drained batteries with that fuzz.

But the carbon zincs actually have a resistive load to them that alkalines do not, and at least one smart guy decided to build a battery clip with a series resistor so that he could use an alkaline and get the same effect. It's literally just a pair of battery clips with a series resistor added. A solution that is as low tech as what makes a fuzz sound good in many instances.


Alkaline do also have an internal resistance, all batteries do, just less than the zinc carbon does.

Zinc carbon have a higher voltage than alkaline initially but this drops as they get used whereas alkaline hold their voltage until nearly at their end. Lithium cells hold their volts right to the end and then drop dead.

Depending on chemistry cells are 1.2 1.3 1.5 1.6 volts - so that 9V is only nominal.

I think the effect you may be seeing with the zinc carbon is that as you draw current i.e. with a big loud signal then the voltage drops.
It matters not if it is a 4.5V rail if the current draw exceeds the battery's amp capability - the volts drop in accordance with Ohm's law using that internal resistance value (it is how the value is calculated). An effect similar to a squishy valve amp where the power supply has an inability to provide the full whack under load.
It is possible to insert a series battery load resistor to limit the current so that it does squish with your choice of battery.

Alkaline do also have an internal resistance, all batteries do, just less than the zinc carbon does.

Zinc carbon have a higher voltage than alkaline initially but this drops as they get used whereas alkaline hold their voltage until nearly at their end. Lithium cells hold their volts right to the end and then drop dead.

Depending on chemistry cells are 1.2 1.3 1.5 1.6 volts - so that 9V is only nominal.

I think the effect you may be seeing with the zinc carbon is that as you draw current i.e. with a big loud signal then the voltage drops.
It matters not if it is a 4.5V rail if the current draw exceeds the battery's amp capability - the volts drop in accordance with Ohm's law using that internal resistance value (it is how the value is calculated). An effect similar to a squishy valve amp where the power supply has an inability to provide the full whack under load.
It is possible to insert a series battery load resistor to limit the current so that it does squish with your choice of battery.

Thanks for the refresher - it's been awhile, since I just don't play around with batteries any longer. I don't even put clips in my personal builds.

And the EJ sig FF sounds fine with external power IMO, whatever resistance or lack thereof. At least my personal variants of it (which have D.C. jacks) certainly do!

Here's what TC Electronic gives you with their pedals. It was in the one I tried out. It's a zinc carbide battery. They are also dirt cheap. Eveready also makes these types.

Here's a pic.

http://www.batteriesandbutter.com/Merchant2/p/L/22169VOLT.jpg

Does a dying alkaline battery behave similarly to a zinc battery? What exactly is this "sweet spot" I keep hearing about with fuzz pedals and dying batteries? Can this be achieved by just using zinc batteries? Can anyone suggest any songs or sound files where this sweet spot can be heard?
Thanks!
(new fuzz fan)

Interesting topic, i have a Dano multi-tap thing that has an adjustable voltage on it, can go from 9 down to 2 (obviously the effect usually stops working at around 4 or 5). Might mess with that some today. I got it when I had a Swollen Pickle, but have since gotten rid of it, had never heard of the battery difference in a wah before-wah is the only pedal on my board these days. I'll mess with lower setting and see if I can tell a difference.

I think it all boils down to the circuit design. The components used in the 60s & 70s were very different from the components made today (mostly in Asia). Also, circuit design and layout has changed over the years. It used to be that p.c. board designs were hand taped, unlike today's CAD designs. This combined with the differences in component chemistry could account for the difference when using "vintage style" batteries. However, I would NOT put the old style batteries in the "new" digital electronics...for the same reasons noted by many here!

Danelectro have been selling these for years and they come included with many of their products (e.g. Honeytone mini amps).

http://www.danelectro.com/more_db2.html

As to whether they sound better, YMMV

Danelectro have been selling these for years and they come included with many of their products (e.g. Honeytone mini amps).

http://www.danelectro.com/more_db2.html

As to whether they sound better, YMMV

This is the one I have.

http://www.danelectrode.com/prod_da4.html

I'll try it out and see how it sounds on my wah in a little bit.

I've always been a 'battery only in fuzz pedals' guy. Zinc ones.

I think it all boils down to the circuit design. The components used in the 60s & 70s were very different from the components made today (mostly in Asia). Also, circuit design and layout has changed over the years. It used to be that p.c. board designs were hand taped, unlike today's CAD designs. This combined with the differences in component chemistry could account for the difference when using "vintage style" batteries.

It entirely boils down to:

- circuit design

- semiconductor design/bandwidth

The older pedals had little to no "tricks" to condition the power to maximize the bandwidth or non-clipped range of pedals. The older ones had no op amps, which can provide a really big linear amplitude gain range before clipping.

...Even silicon bipolar transistors were light years ahead of germanium - much better gain bandwidth, lower noise, no "leakage" issues, so they are very consistent, if limited in performance versus something like an op amp.

The old fuzzes had nothing elaborate in their circuits, which is why they are so daggone simple. No input buffers, really very rare to see "pre-gain signal conditioning," which can make things a little smoother and more dynamic thru the range (and really only consists of something like a series resistor on the input), nothing to shunt off RF noise.

There are no "pulldown resistors" in those old fuzzes either, which helped to keep the switch pop thing under control. The older caps especially would frequently "leak DC" and give you a good pop, even with true bypass.

But the bottom line is that the less power you have, the less efficient the pedal will be at reproducing a clean signal. Something like an op amp design will work within lower voltages to minimize it to a certain point, but you can obviously get them to clip as the voltage is reduced as well.

A lot of folks don't know that the Boss BD-2 is internally regulated to run at 8VDC, so "voltage/current manipulation" is there even though we don't realize it.

Does a dying alkaline battery behave similarly to a zinc battery? What exactly is this "sweet spot" I keep hearing about with fuzz pedals and dying batteries? Can this be achieved by just using zinc batteries? Can anyone suggest any songs or sound files where this sweet spot can be heard?
Thanks!
(new fuzz fan)

A = no.

For me a battery is a battery and I prefer ones I don' have to keep changing plus old zinc batteries leak and leave an horrible mess.

A fuzz should cut it without having to insert a dead battery that is going to cut out mid performance anyway.