H Diminished?

probably an error... :) but would like to know what it is...

http://www.hansruedi-jordi.ch/chords/Chords%20Gee%20Baby,%20Ain-t%20I%20Good%20To%20You%2009.01.05.pdf

I bet that is a m7b5; a half-diminished 7th

Oop, looking closer, he says b6/H, so I bet m6b5.

From wikipedia:

in German music notation, H is B♮ (B-natural) and B is B♭ (B-flat). Occasionally, music written in German for international use will use H for B-natural and Bb for B-flat (with a modern-script lowercase b instead of a flat sign).

Since that website is Swiss, this may apply.

In some German music H refers to B, so the mystery chord in the chart would be B dim.

In that key, the second chord of the B section of "Gee Baby" would be a B diminished chord.

So yeah, not a mistake, just German.

ok that makes sense :)

thanks guys !

Yep H(B) dim - the "schluss" gave it away.......

I knew that "H" was used to represent the key of B in German, but what's that Bb doing there?

Wouldn't that be Hb?

I'm not trying to be a wise guy, I honestly don't know...

Nevermind... Just read waparker4's reply. :oops:

From wikipedia:

in German music notation, H is B♮ (B-natural) and B is B♭ (B-flat). Occasionally, music written in German for international use will use H for B-natural and Bb for B-flat (with a modern-script lowercase b instead of a flat sign).

B in German is Bb to us; H in German is B to us. I lived in Germany for two years and had a band going for a while there with a German bassist, a German drummer, and a British keys player. When we were learning tunes, I found out the hard way what German B was when I was playing B and everyone else was playing Bb. Glad that was rehearsal.

Thus, when notated in German, a song can contain the phrase: BACH. I understand several composers have done this as an homage.

B in German is Bb to us; H in German is B to us. I lived in Germany for two years and had a band going for a while there with a German bassist, a German drummer, and a British keys player. When we were learning tunes, I found out the hard way what German B was when I was playing B and everyone else was playing Bb. Glad that was rehearsal.

Thus, when notated in German, a song can contain the phrase: BACH. I understand several composers have done this as an homage.

Including ol' J. S. himself.

In some German music H refers to B, so the mystery chord in the chart would be B dim.

In that key, the second chord of the B section of "Gee Baby" would be a B diminished chord.

So yeah, not a mistake, just German.

Yes, but it's not just German. It has a long historical context as well. Long ago B natural didn't exist; it was rarely if ever used. It was understood that B meant Bb...there was only the one kind. :wink:

This also comes into play when one thinks of the old modes -- they all contained Bb! ie. Dorian has a Bb and so does Phrygian; that's why the "reciting tone" in Phrygian is not a 5th above tonic like in the other modes, because the fifth is a tritone! The reciting tone has to be C. :shock:

This is almost universally forgotten today when "modes" are taught. :mad:

Also in that game of hiding words in music, Eb is called S. Dimitri S(c)hostakovich used "D SCH" (D Eb C B) as his signature in the famous quartet #8. It's the first four notes and repeated several times.

BDDNS4BM1xQ

Yes, but it's not just German. It has a long historical context as well. Long ago B natural didn't exist; it was rarely if ever used. It was understood that B meant Bb...there was only the one kind. :wink:

This also comes into play when one thinks of the old modes -- they all contained Bb! ie. Dorian has a Bb and so does Phrygian; that's why the "reciting tone" in Phrygian is not a 5th above tonic like in the other modes, because the fifth is a tritone! The reciting tone has to be C. :shock:

This is almost universally forgotten today when "modes" are taught. :mad:

So that makes it Locrian(?) E F G A Bb C D

So that makes it Locrian(?) E F G A Bb C D

No. :neutral:

Locrian was never a mode. There are no pre-20th Century compositions that even use it. It is purely a theoretical construct, and not a result of analysis of actual compositional practice.

Originally, there were (are) 4 modes in two versions each. Compositions that went past their hexatonic ranges technically borrowed from another mode(s) to do so. It can often be very difficult to determine the actual mode of a Renaissance composition; one must often search to find the final structural cadence in order to find the correct answer. Increasingly over time, ficta was used to lend stronger cadences and other harmonic emphasis. This gradually became the current system of tonality, in which there are only two modes: major and minor.

This happened around 1620-1650, but it was a shift over time, and not a sudden change. Much of Bach's work involved re-setting old modal melodies to "modern" harmonies. (This explains many of the oddities that can be found where he breaks "his own rules".)

An example of just such a melody is O Sacred Head Now Wounded; a Phrygian melody set to tonal harmony. Old Phrygian pieces commonly had cadences on A and C, (not on Bb = the tritone), and in that piece, Bach acknowledges this with an unmistakable cadence on A major in a piece he places in C.

No. :neutral:

Locrian was never a mode. There are no pre-20th Century compositions that even use it. It is purely a theoretical construct, and not a result of analysis of actual compositional practice.

Originally, there were (are) 4 modes in two versions each. Compositions that went past their hexatonic ranges technically borrowed from another mode(s) to do so. It can often be very difficult to determine the actual mode of a Renaissance composition; one must often search to find the final structural cadence in order to find the correct answer. Increasingly over time, ficta was used to lend stronger cadences and other harmonic emphasis. This gradually became the current system of tonality, in which there are only two modes: major and minor.

This happened around 1620-1650, but it was a shift over time, and not a sudden change. Much of Bach's work involved re-setting old modal melodies to "modern" harmonies. (This explains many of the oddities that can be found where he breaks "his own rules".)

An example of just such a melody is O Sacred Head Now Wounded; a Phrygian melody set to tonal harmony. Old Phrygian pieces commonly had cadences on A and C, (not on Bb = the tritone), and in that piece, Bach acknowledges this with an unmistakable cadence on A major in a piece he places in C.Whoa dude! You guys sure know how to party! Lol

Seriously, Joe-Bob, would you be kind enough to post a link to the Bach piece in C major with the A major cadence?

I don't think I've ever heard that but it sounds pretty cool.

Oh great, I can hear the hipsters now, "I played Locrian before it was a mode!"

An example of just such a melody is O Sacred Head Now Wounded; a Phrygian melody set to tonal harmony. Old Phrygian pieces commonly had cadences on A and C, (not on Bb = the tritone), and in that piece, Bach acknowledges this with an unmistakable cadence on A major in a piece he places in C.

Cool.

*Many Jewish (Klezmer) melodies do that too - when they're in the key of the phrygian mode (which is sometimes made major - Ahavoh Rabboh). Dm is also a common 'resolve' chord in Phryg.

From back in the day when Lydian mode was the Major Scale?

An example of just such a melody is O Sacred Head Now Wounded; a Phrygian melody set to tonal harmony. Old Phrygian pieces commonly had cadences on A and C, (not on Bb = the tritone), and in that piece, Bach acknowledges this with an unmistakable cadence on A major in a piece he places in C.

Fascinating. Which BVW number Joe Bob? The only one I know of this is BVW 244 (cant remember which mvt) in Am with a rather indefinite cadence on E major - but I can definitely hear the phrygian quality in the final measures even though the majority of the cadences resolve to A.

The setting of these melodies in equal temperament is critical here. Does anyone sing ancient church music - plainsong , observing just intonation anymore?

In German:
Natural notes: A, H, C, D, E, F, G
Sharps: Ais, His, Cis, Dis, Eis, Fis, Gis
Flats: As, B, Ces, Des, Es, Fes, Ges

Major= Dur, Minor= Moll

Crazy system, I know!

In French and Russian (and a few others) they don't even use our alphabetical letters system, so C, for example, is do, D is ré and E is mi.

Whoa dude! You guys sure know how to party! Lol

Seriously, Joe-Bob, would you be kind enough to post a link to the Bach piece in C major with the A major cadence?


Fascinating. Which BVW number Joe Bob?

I don't have one here, but it's in most hymnals, iirc.

Looking through Reimenschneider - I cant find it in C. But there it is..in D maj with a cadence in B major at the end of the 4th phrase - #98 - not the final cadence though.
I was trying to imagine it as going to the relative minor with a tierce de picardie..
Ive sung this with my aural students so many times that I hear it as straight minor - but we havent tried this version of it (there are 5 of them in Rms.)

Does anyone know how much of the original phrasing was adhered to here? I know this is off OP - but it seems that the way Bach has phrased the melody(as well as the harmonisation) offsets the phrygian sound toward the aeolian - or maybe Ive just sung /heard it too many times like this..

thanks for the heads up on that JB.

PDF of "O Sacred Head Now Wounded." (http://library.timelesstruths.org/music/O_Sacred_Head_Now_Wounded/pdf/)

Looking through Reimenschneider

The original 'Real Book'.

The original 'Real Book'.

Thats right! - especially the back section, which are all 18th century 'lead sheets' - melody and figured bass.