Telling someone No

Hey all,

I'm a 30 year old music director at my church. I'm curious to hear from some of the veteran players about the best way to hear something from a "young guy".

I've got a keyboard player who lives in early 90's Michael W. Smith and a guitar player who wants to solo from start to stop (no sense of dynamics or pauses in rhythm )

Any thoughts welcomed.

Just be honest with them. Tell the keyboard player to listen to some modern arrangements and try to adapt to the sound or arrangement that you are after. Tell the guitar player that too much noodling not only does not add to the piece but it actually detracts from the piece by distracting people from hearing the words. There is nothing wrong with telling church musicians that what they do is not what you, the music director, are looking for. The problem is that some people think that having "a heart for the Lord" is the only prerequisite for playing on the P&W team, but the musician has to be able to increase the overall quality of the music by what he/she plays, and not subtract from it by becoming the focal point of the song him or herself.

It's no different playing out in the "world" , musicians who feel it is about "them" are really not part of any team or band..., whether it be on the platform or the band stand at a local club.

I feel a private conversation with each is in order... The keyboard player who loves the MW Smith sound, well that's not so bad , but it can get old if it's the only approach he uses. Maybe discuss using a few different styles or tones...the ONE TONE fits all approach doesn't work...

A guitar player who plays from the beginning to the end non stop pretty much has no clue how to be part of a band...amateur comes to mind no matter how good his chops are...Some guitar players learn how to blend in and "lift" at an early age, some it takes a few years longer..some never learn it.......

This is a tough scenario as it borders on challenging their hearts...but if I had to make an assumption (dangerous) playing music for the lord has nothing to do with why they are there . I'm speaking from 6 years in a full Pentecostal P+W band...3 weekly services and countless rehearsals and choir outreach programs where I didn't survive the politics of not just from the Pastor on down but from the Rock Stars at the bottom trying to go up !

Positive reinforcement, tact, and empathy. If the players aren't being compensated financially, try to learn specifically the reason they play and what their expected "compensation" ideally would be. Different people are motivated by different things.

Once you have a clear idea of what their motivation and expectations are, you can use your abilities to help them.

The main goal in the end is that the result focused on is providing an experience for the audience that accomplishes the purpose set forth by your mission statement.

This means that individuals have to be subordinate to the group for the good of the audience. They will only do this if they have sufficient motivation.

It is important to be flexible, but just as important to make sure everyone is clear on the goal. That is the invisible standard which makes decision making easy. No matter how talented someone is, if they can't play as a team, then they shouldn't be on one.

I think it's important to be honest and have candor, and if you are consistent and no respecter of persons, as long as you are tactful, people will respect you, even if they don't like you.

The players have to be able to do the job, and if they can't, they should not be there. Players can improve if they have a desire, but if they have a bad attitude or think the world revolves around them, they will drag the rest of the group down.

There are a gazillion great musicians that could never go very far, because they did not care about people. Caring about others causes musicians to get better and work better as a team.

As a 37-year old music director... I haven't got many years on you! What I'd add to the great advice so far is to start from what you want to hear from them, not what you don't want to hear. Keep it positive, praise what you like about their playing, and direct them towards something positive rather than away from something negative. Give them specific things to work towards, whether it's exact parts or some examples of the sort of feel you're after. Get some MP3s or YouTube videos of songs you like the sound of and point them to what you like. "Listen to that guitar part between 1:27 and 2:13, the way it blends in with the band but lifts things from the verse before it" - that sort of thing.

Once you have a clear idea of what their motivation and expectations are, you can use your abilities to help them.

The main goal in the end is that the result focused on is providing an experience for the audience that accomplishes the purpose set forth by your mission statement.

This means that individuals have to be subordinate to the group for the good of the audience. They will only do this if they have sufficient motivation.

It is important to be flexible, but just as important to make sure everyone is clear on the goal. That is the invisible standard which makes decision making easy. No matter how talented someone is, if they can't play as a team, then they shouldn't be on one.

I think it's important to be honest and have candor, and if you are consistent and no respecter of persons, as long as you are tactful, people will respect you, even if they don't like you.

The players have to be able to do the job, and if they can't, they should not be there. Players can improve if they have a desire, but if they have a bad attitude or think the world revolves around them, they will drag the rest of the group down.

There are a gazillion great musicians that could never go very far, because they did not care about people. Caring about others causes musicians to get better and work better as a team.

This is great advice, and will show you who's someone you can work with and who, regardless of talent and heart, just won't work with you.

Next time they are scheduled, ask them to listen for and play what they hear in the recording. Tell em you want it to be as close to that as they can do. Not just the tone, but the parts. Tell them you really like how the recording sounds, and that arrangement would work well in church. At that time, or after they've done that a couple times, that can easily segue into a conversation about musicianship - and playing the right part, and knowing when not to play.

I have a young bass player who does great at rehearsal, and then the service starts, and he starts sliding into every note, and hitting octaves, and doing extra noodles after the song is over. I don't know what gets into him when the service starts. It's frustrating because I forget he does that, and at rehearsal, I forget to talk about it. And then comes time for church, and it's too late to talk about it!

I have a young bass player who does great at rehearsal, and then the service starts, and he starts sliding into every note, and hitting octaves, and doing extra noodles after the song is over. I don't know what gets into him when the service starts. It's frustrating because I forget he does that, and at rehearsal, I forget to talk about it. And then comes time for church, and it's too late to talk about it!

Put a reminder in your calendar for the rehearsal to mention it, another one just before the service to remind him and another one just after the service to congratulate him on keeping it simple or to give specific examples of where he didn't!

Next time they are scheduled, ask them to listen for and play what they hear in the recording. Tell em you want it to be as close to that as they can do. Not just the tone, but the parts. Tell them you really like how the recording sounds, and that arrangement would work well in church. At that time, or after they've done that a couple times, that can easily segue into a conversation about musicianship - and playing the right part, and knowing when not to play.

I have a young bass player who does great at rehearsal, and then the service starts, and he starts sliding into every note, and hitting octaves, and doing extra noodles after the song is over. I don't know what gets into him when the service starts. It's frustrating because I forget he does that, and at rehearsal, I forget to talk about it. And then comes time for church, and it's too late to talk about it!

Remind him that any showboating and extra noodles should be done by the bandleader only!:mrgreen:

Just be honest with them. Tell the keyboard player to listen to some modern arrangements and try to adapt to the sound or arrangement that you are after. Tell the guitar player that too much noodling not only does not add to the piece but it actually detracts from the piece by distracting people from hearing the words. There is nothing wrong with telling church musicians that what they do is not what you, the music director, are looking for. The problem is that some people think that having "a heart for the Lord" is the only prerequisite for playing on the P&W team, but the musician has to be able to increase the overall quality of the music by what he/she plays, and not subtract from it by becoming the focal point of the song him or herself.

Well said. I would just share your heart with them in love and honesty, then if they have a problem with it and are not ready to submit to leadership or grow and conform to the vision and direction of the worship program maybe their not mature enough to be on it yet. You as the leader can make a decision what to do about that. But the last thing you want is to hurt them, just listen to what they have to say, let them know how you feel, and come up with a solution that works for everyone. I suggest not talking about this in a group setting, go to them each one on one or take another person in leadership with you like your pastor or deacon or something. Music is an expression from deep within our souls, it's easy to be hurt by criticism about your playing, I suggest not telling them what they are doing wrong or criticizing them, but instead share your heart about the different direction you'd like to take the music program and offer them support and resources to grow into that. And offer the same thing to the whole band. Offer to get them some CD's or books or some materials or training that will help them grow as musicians. Any musician should appreciate such a gesture. I think a piece of advice my pastor gave me one time would help your guitar player, "all emphasis is no emphasis". Haha. A perfect example of not "over-playing" is to listen to Vince Gill. He is very good but understated, he never over-plays. Best wishes.

You might try with 'sometimes the greatest musicians just don't fit with other great musicians,' and follow up with the true story of how Eric Clapton realized, that in spite of all his greatness, was not a good fit in EmmyLou Harris' Hot Band...(actually he couldn't hang, but that's probably another thread)

The key to most any gig is not just musicianship but applying that musicianship to the existing opening? I've always thought so, and have learned that the hard way! I've been at it for 40+ yrs, and there are many gigs I just am not the right guy for...some I had to work my butt off to become proficient enough for a specific job...

I'm not a WL, but take direction from all the WL's in my church. Most put together their own chord charts and state specifically what's going on. Something like this:

Intro: eguitar U2 tone
v1: piano and vocals only
v2: a guitar only
chorus: all band
chorus: vocals and hi hat
solo: eguitar, drums, keys-pad-quiet
bridge: a guitar, drums
chorus: all band - big
end: verse chords: big: U2 eguitar background

I take the queues (someone else: only) very well. Telling the eguitar guy to take it down a notch during rehersal is too late. Novice musicians think that they have to play all the time. It takes time to realize that sometimes the eguitar is in the song for the solo and absolutely nothing else. Or out for the entire song.

What I'd add to the great advice so far is to start from what you want to hear from them, not what you don't want to hear. Keep it positive, praise what you like about their playing, and direct them towards something positive rather than away from something negative.
+1
All of the advice here is good. I direct a choir with a very problematic individual who is over-confident about his skills and another who is the polar opposite. I have found that I have to be firm but positive and it seems to be working most of the time. Since I took on this music ministry role I have leaned more on my union labour relations experience than musical experience. It does seem to be all about ensuring that people are getting along.

How do you get a rock guitar player to stop playing?

Put sheet music in front of him!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

If they read music, give them a piece or two written to exactly what and when they are to play, trading off rests, simple whole note ambience, rhythmic comping, and solo fills. Record them as they normally play and as they play your arrangement. It should become self-evident what the differences are and what they can work on.

I've dealt with overplaying musicians (keys) and its frustrating for everyone. Do instrumental warm-ups similar to what you might hear a good marching band doing as warm-ups:
-trading note values (keyboard- whole notes, bass- quarters, rhythm guitar- eighths, lead guitar- half, etc.)
-moving parts (melodies) vs. chord development (ambience) vs. rhythm
-dynamics, unison softs and louds and alternating instruments (loud guitar/soft keys, etc.)

No matter what level a musician is, it never hurts (other than pride and morale) to get back to basics. Even pros have warm-up routines, make a warm-up routine for the band. Disguise it as an organized blues or fusion jam if you have to, but get them playing together outside the standard repertoire.

This thread title is misleading. You are not telling them "no". You are being their music director. Direct them.

Just do what our band leader does, "I know it sounds that way on the recording, but we're doing it THIS WAY NOW. Now try it again, and remember--we're doing it with a calypso beat."

Thanks for the input. In the case of the keyboard player... I'll ask for a sustain whole note chord (think Hurt by Johnny Cash) and he looks at me like I'm crazy... Or any pad I ask for (organ, Rhodes, etc) will inevitably just be a early 90's soft rock string synth... That kind of thing.

It might be the musician's skill level and background too. Can't speak for the keyboard player, but perhaps the guitar player used to be in a band with just drums, bass, rhythm guitar and vocals and only played certain kinds of songs (i.e. Satriani, Van Halen, etc.).

Once you throw in a guy who comes with this experience in a worship setting with piano, keys, background singers and etc then the person would feel a bit lost and start to just play what they know. It might take some time to adjust but likely communicating what you need would be a better way to go.

Jack FFR1846's suggestion is a great idea! (I'll probably steal it someday)
A good piece of advice came from somewhere recently and I can't remember where so if you recognize this, remember I'm not claiming it as my own.

The band is not 1+1+1+1+1=5/1
It's 1 with each member making up 1/5th of the whole

I talk to my players once in a while about being 1/5th of the band.

I might tell the lead player that we can't give everything away too early. I want him to bring an exclaimation point to the song at the right time. If he's noodling throughout it becomes noisy wallpaper rather than the punch he's there to deliver.

Knowing what sound you want from the keys ahead of time and gently insisting on it may help the keyboard player get out of his box.

I'm blessed, I have developed good friendships with my playas who are good guys that are pretty humble. I can say to my lead player, 'hey man, a little less until we take a breath after the 2nd verse' and it happens. Or to my keyboard player, 'take the organ to church' or give me a stringy patch or if you ever punch up that 90's synth again there will be trouble...

From experience of working with new team members recently, with different skills, experience and backgrounds, being as specific as possible is the way forward. If that means sending out very detailed instructions before rehearsal, so be it. If it means one-to-one sessions before the main rehearsal, so be it. The one-to-one sessions are good as you can be very detailed in your instruction and give full attention to the person, as well as not potentially making them look bad in front of the whole team. I had a mini-rehearsal with our new lead guitarist last ngiht and was able to smooth out some bumps and make some suggestions that would have been lost in the main band rehearsal.

If the keys player isn't getting the right pad sounds, give them specific examples of the sound you want. If they're not producing it, work with them to get it.

Our only rehearsal in any given week starts three hours before the service. We do know the song list ahead of time. The members of the band vary every week. Sometimes when there are six or more people, it can be difficult, but we have had a lot of success doing things this way. I think the reason for the success is everyone in the band supports the leader's final decisions. Elements of any song are always up for discussion, but once a decision is made, that's how it's going to be.

We all really respect our director, and we're all in the band for the same reason. Egos have to be checked at the door.

Our only rehearsal in any given week starts three hours before the service. We do know the song list ahead of time. The members of the band vary every week. Sometimes when there are six or more people, it can be difficult, but we have had a lot of success doing things this way. I think the reason for the success is everyone in the band supports the leader's final decisions. Elements of any song are always up for discussion, but once a decision is made, that's how it's going to be.

We all really respect our director, and we're all in the band for the same reason. Egos have to be checked at the door.

This is good. A bad leader won't consider suggestions, but equally a bad follower won't accept decisions. The first will lead to a demoralised and undervalued team, the second to a trainwreck.

Just be honest with them. .... The problem is that some people think that having "a heart for the Lord" is the only prerequisite for playing on the P&W team.

I agree here strongly - the rub for churches especially is that people often cannot make the connection between being honest and 'nice' at the same time. Telling the truth with love is one of the hardest things we do in ministry, but the consequences of trying to make sure that no one's feelings are hurt, ultimately leads to bigger conflict.