Flat Five Substitution

Okay, so for a dominant chord, you can substitute a dominant chord a b5th away, so D7 going to G, you can sub Ab7. On one level it is just approaching the target chord from a half step above.

If you were a blues player trying to take his/her playing uptown a little bit, what are the better iterations of that b5 sub; also in terms of scale, and where to enter and resolve it?

I'm asking in terms of a blues player to, I hope, keep the extensions of the other chords down to a simpler harmonic context.

And I promise I won't try to put this in Take Me Back to Tulsa.

I'm not a blues player, but I'll try not to go all jazz-theory crazy here.

There's a sense in which the b5 sub is always lurking around the corner with dominant chords, as far as scales over the chord.

Example: the vanilla scale over a dom7 chord is the mixolydian scale:

D7 : D E F# G A B C

We are just in the key of G. To spice it up you can raise the fourth:

D7: D E F# G# A B C

This sounds brighter and is called the lydian dominant.

If you want to sound darker, with plenty of tension, you can use the altered scale:

D7: D Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

Note this scale has the b5, #5, b9 and #9 of the D7. That's the tension. The tricky note there may be the b5 (Ab), because #5 (Bb), b9 (Eb) and #9 (F) are all notes in G minor, so playing them sounds like you've shifted from G major to G minor.

Now consider Ab7, the b5 sub for D7. What about playing the same sorts of scales (lydian dominant and altered) over it?

Lydian dominant for Ab7:

Ab7: Ab Bb C D Eb F Gb [!!! same notes as altered over D7]

Altered for Ab7: (or G#7)

Ab7: G# A B C D E F# [!!! same notes as lydian dominant over D7]

Conclusion: You're closer to a b5 sub than you think, when you play with these two scales. Just remember is to resolve to a G chord from the Ab7, not a Db chord.

One more thing: You can pull pentatonic scales out of these seven note scales, too, if you are looking for that pentatonic feel.

For example: a pentatonic from lydian dominant:

D7: D E F# G# B

I wish this wasn't so far over my head. I should have paid more attention to my 8th grade music teacher..........but that was over 40 years ago :lol:

Here's a quick little "b5" thing you can always slip in.

Going to a G chord, one often plays some sort of D7 arpeggio. For example (descending):

F# D C A ... (and then onto the G chord)

Turn that into a Ab7 arpeggio (again, descending)

Gb Eb C Ab ... G

The colour tones are the same (F#/Gb and C), the Eb slips in there in passing and the Ab pulls you to resolve to a G note. It shouldn't sound outside.

The Ab lydian dominant has the D note, which pulls it back towards inside as opposed to Ab7 with its Db.

The Ab lydian dominant has the D note, which pulls it back towards inside as opposed to Ab7 with its Db.

Yiup. That's why I slipped that #4 in there. I'd avoid leaning on the Db unless you really wanted the b5 sub to sound further outside. But one usually avoids leaning on the perfect 4th over a dominant chord anyway.

Here's one more idea, with respect to b5 subs and the blues. Usually, a b5 sub gives you that "descending by a step" feel: Ab7 to G7. But it's also interesting to do it on the IV going to the I (measures 6 and 7 in a 12 bar blues). This turns C7 to G7 into F#7 to G7 and you get an *ascending* by a step feel.

Aside: I often wonder what else folks are doing while online. (new thread idea?) My wife told be to be useful before she left for work, so I've just done four loads of laundry, and hung them out to dry. But now the dog is looking at me, like I never take him for walks. Okay, Harley...

My favorite b5 (AKA tritone) sub for a V7 is the 7#11 Ex: turnaround in C - E7#9>A7b9>Dm7>Db7#11 and my favorite voicing is 98988x , so you get Db-F-Cb-Eb G or R,3,b7,9,#11. Very cool sound. I hear jazz/blues songs end on this as a tonic a lot.

Classical composers used tritone subs, too. They are often called Neapolitan chords. Also, compare the notes of G7 and Db7:

G7 = G B D F
Db7 = Db F Ab Cb

You can see that the tritone B-F (or spelled as Cb - F) sits in both chords.

Big Daddy's Ab7 alt, seem kind of like cheating.

Quote:
"Altered for Ab7: (or G#7)

Ab7: G# A B C D E F# [!!! same notes as lydian dominant over D7]"

You have altered it to turn it back into a D dominant, with a flat 5th. Just like a chromatic descent from D7/A D7/Ab G/G.

5 x 4 5 3 x to
4 x 4 5 3 x to
3 5 5 4 3 3

It is also A melodic minor, right?

^^^^

You're right about the Altered scale over Ab7. The b5 sub takes you half way around the "wheel of fifths", and the altered scale is itself a bit like going half way round. So two half turns take you back to where you started. There is also a "unity of opposites" going on with the b5 sub, as Larry pointed out: the third becomes the seventh and the seventh becomes the third:

D7: third = F#
Ab7: seventh = Gb

D7: seventh = C
Ab7 third = C


http://tamingthesaxophone.com/pic-jazz/cycle-fifths.gif

All this is to say D7 and Ab7 have much in common. And it all feeds into the b5 sub.

> It is also A melodic minor, right?

Yup. I didn't mention that because there was other stuff going on. I know this will get labeled as "theory" or "over my head", but if one looks at it from the right angle, things fall into place and it makes a lot of sense.

I'm not really complaining. What I was soliciting was ways the b5 sub can smoothly fit in to non-jazz situations. The less out the more in. You know I might be able to fit that onto Take Me Back to Tulsa after all. If it is just like a chromatic passing note.

What actually started this was watching some BB King on YouTube. He has a jazzy touch in places and it got me to playing some blues, which I don't usually play. And that made me think about jazz or uptown sounds. So the real inquiry is how to get a jazzy something between V7 and I which sounds not like a run transplanted from somewhere else.

Classical composers used tritone subs, too. They are often called Neapolitan chords.

Except Neapolitan chords are not 7th chords. :mad:

Leon,

Yes, the tritone sub is very popular...but...I never really understood why; it is a very weak-sounding chord movement, especially in a place where you want or need a strong V-I feel. Ab7 to G just ain't it. Try F#dim7 and see which your ears prefer. :wink:

F#dim7 = D7b9 (rootless). Are far as playing over the chord, the D altered scale is still in play.

D7 run to D# dim run has been my go to, in fact pretty much only, trick for going from D7 to G for a long time. I'll say this: it really does work, even in Hank Williams. And on The Nightlife, or Crazy, #5, b9 and #9 work out okay, if I really act like I mean it.

I also will stick in a pure D7 Ab7, usually just the arpeggio, but that is another one of those things that sounds better on the couch by myself than on the bandstand. Hence the question. The #4 may be the answer, if there is one.

Leon - I think you are already on the right track - I literally blew a couple of gigs in my younger days trying out altered scales on country rock gigs - the other guys really thought I didnt know what I was doing - and they were right!:wink:

Making it work means being selective - and being selective means using your ear as the touchstone - which is what you are doing.

The basis of the root movement of tritone subs is that there is a really strong but 'alien' gravity to the tonic - and the pivot of shared 7ths and 3rds, and the kind of dissonance which isnt idiomatic in country and bluegrass - except maybe the Punch Brothers or something progressive.

Best to bring it back to tension - resolution - the sound of where the dominant meets the tonic and which note shifts pass the whistle test.

The problem with the altered scale is that its tensions rely very much on the flexibility of the music to accomodate all of the possible resolution points in a chord. Charlie Parker was great at resolving phrases anywhere from the 3rd to the 13th of the chord - thats partly what gives bebop its flavour.

I think you have already surmised this - but I guess the next thing you have to do is decide which tune and which cadence(s) in that tune can take that sound.

From experience I'd say the b9 of D7 to the 5th of G. The #5 of D7 to the 3rd of G is nice. C to B of course and F# to G if resolving to the root note is cool. Those are direct resolutions.

You can be more adventurous here and try indirect resolutions - i.e instead of Eb to D - try Eb F (b9 #9) to D. Or instead of A# to B - try A# C B.
To me this kind of thing can make a big difference to leveraging altered sound into non jazz idioms.

Now check out the 7th, 9th and 13th of the chord as resolution points - do they work? If they do then direct resolutions such as the #4 of D(G#) to the 9th of G(A) might be possible - or the #5(A#) to the 9th(A) might be more palatable. The #9 of D to the 7th or 13th of G too.
Sorry for the longwinded-ness - this stuff translates to demonstration much better than it does to the written word...

btw Big Daddy that cycle diagram is a ripper! Im stealing it...

Here's a super quick example in G.
G7 going to C7. Bar four of G7 starting on the and of 1.
This is the lick, essentially from a Db9(b5) - all 1/8 notes: B Ab B G F D Eb E - the 3rd of C
(pardon my enharmonic speak on the vid)

IbCgL-GWIHY

Except Neapolitan chords are not 7th chords.



I left out the part about the aug 6th, which forms an enharmonic tritone with the third.

Thanks, Pinky. That's the kind if details I was hoping for. I think I have been favoring ascending with the D# dim and resolving F# to G. I work with your ideas.

Or D# dim up and D7 back down.

Aw man, you got to de-privatize that vid!

Nice!

Sorry.

IbCgL-GWIHY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbCgL-GWIHY

Comments from previous (above) post ...
"Here's a super quick example in G.
G7 going to C7. Bar four of G7 starting on the and of 1.
This is the lick, essentially from a Db9(b5) - all 1/8 notes: B Ab B G F D Eb E - the 3rd of C
(pardon my enharmonic speak on the vid)"

I left out the part about the aug 6th, which forms an enharmonic tritone with the third.

Neapolitan chords are not the same thing as augmented sixth chords. :shock:

From wiki:

Occasionally, a minor 7th or augmented 6th is added to the Neapolitan chord, which turns it into a potential secondary dominant that can allow tonicization or modulation to the ♭V/♯IV key area relative to the primary tonic. Whether the added note were notated as a minor 7th or augmented 6th would largely depend how the chord was going to resolve. For example, in C major or C minor, the Neapolitan chord with an augmented 6th (B-natural added to D♭ major chord) would very likely resolve in C major or minor, or possibly into some other closely related key such as F minor; but if the extra note were considered as an added seventh (C♭), this would be the best notation if the music were to lead into G♭ major or minor. (If the composer chose to lead into F♯ major or minor, very likely the Neapolitan chord would be notated enharmonically based on C♯ (for example: C♯-E♯-G♯-B), although composers vary in their practice on such enharmonic niceties.)

Here's a super quick example in G.
G7 going to C7. Bar four of G7 starting on the and of 1.
This is the lick, essentially from a Db9(b5) - all 1/8 notes: B Ab B G F D Eb E - the 3rd of C
(pardon my enharmonic speak on the vid)



Why do you think of that of that as Db9 instead of G7b9? I see it in terms of the B Ab B being Cb Ab Cb, b7 5 b7 out of the standard 9th chord grip. But leave it as B and all the rest is G7 with the Eb as a passing note between D and E.

Why do you think of that of that as Db9 instead of G7b9? I see it in terms of the B Ab B being Cb Ab Cb, b7 5 b7 out of the standard 9th chord grip. But leave it as B and all the rest is G7 with the Eb as a passing note between D and E.

Good question. *All b5 dom chords can be thought of or looked at interchangeably.
It's how I hear it and see it. I literally see the chord shape that I snag the line from. The Db9 chord moving down to a C9. Which is how I'll comp a lot in a blues - moving into a chord via a 1/2 step above.

**In a jazzier situation sometimes I'll play/think in Abm (dorian) on bar four. I interchange m7 and dom9 chords constantly. In this case Db9 for Abm7.
That definitely doesn't work in straight blues, rock or country IMO.

That makes sense: playing off the chord shape.

This has been a great discussion. I guess what you guys are saying is I really do need an ES-335.

Yeah, I think of the Ab B F and Eb as the tonal part of the Db chord, the G as the 'alt' note and the D natural as the passing tone. The E natural (the 3rd of C7) hits on the downbeat of bar five and I'm in the key of C now. Blues is in two keys as far as I'm concerned.

*This is one of those situations where sitting down with me for an hour would reveal a lot about how I hear/see and think of things.

In the recent alt chord thread jazztele said a go to grip was, translated to G alt:

X X 6 4 4 X

Same as Abm for Db9

That's some pretty up-town thinkin' there cowboy :wink:.

Different players see it/hear it in different ways.
It comes down to what works best for you.

This has been a great discussion. I guess what you guys are saying is I really do need an ES-335.

lol - the question is; will it be a twanger or blueser? 335's can go either way (if you can still find a good 'un without mortgaging the house)

Ahhh, so this thread is really about a reason to get a different guitar? Heck, why didn't you say so? Modes of the melodic minor and start thinking sunburst, blond or cherry.

Ahhh, so this thread is really about a reason to get a different guitar? Heck, why didn't you say so? Modes of the melodic minor and start thinking sunburst, blond or cherry.

Not really. Watching those BB King videos, and these threads, though...

One thing I have found with any substitution concept is that the simpler your chord substituted the more effective the sub sounds. If you dress it up with alterations or play a lot of 'scale tones' you end up closer to your original chord, when usually you're trying to get a new sound in there.

One thing I have found with any substitution concept is that the simpler your chord substituted the more effective the sub sounds. If you dress it up with alterations or play a lot of 'scale tones' you end up closer to your original chord, when usually you're trying to get a new sound in there.

That's a good point.
After Leon's question regarding my little demo vid I realized that "yeah, my approach could be thought of as a G alt dom line". I don't think of it that way but one could. It evolved from a straight Db triad or 7th chord.
I personally don't like it to sound too abrupt.

You have to be careful when you're starting out with subs and altered lines as well as dim and aug licks that you don't sound too obvious - like you're dropping them in. That's actually the hardest part - making it seamless and natural sounding/feeling. T-Bone Walker, Robben Ford, Barney Kessel (and many others of course) were/are masters of this in a pop and blues setting. The last thing you want is the "hey, look at me - jazz lick crossing" vibe on a Texas blues shuffle.

From wiki:

Really? :shock: Wikipedia is your most trusted source of information on music theory?

**In a jazzier situation sometimes I'll play/think in Abm (dorian) on bar four. I interchange m7 and dom9 chords constantly. In this case Db9 for Abm7.
That definitely doesn't work in straight blues, rock or country IMO.


I was wondering when someone was going to mention that. You can think of this in terms of comping and expanding on the tritone sub, turning a V into a ii-V:

D7 / / / ==> Ab7 / / / ==> Ebm7 / Ab7 /

Yes. And then we begin to slowly drift into John Coltrane land. As bigdaddylh says above - approach your b5 sub'd dom chord with it's ii-7. In blues, swing and country ... at your own risk.

So what is a Neopolitan chord? Use it in a sentence for me, please.

In Naples when three chefs make pizza ... and sing ... that's a Neapolitan chord.
Use it in a sentence. Lets see ... "Mozarts 'magic flute' has a really cool Neapolitan chord in act II - an Eb (It goes to a V7 - A7 because it's in Dm)."

It's a first inversion (3rd in the bass usually) major triad built on the lowered second degree of a major (or minor) scale. Usually it goes to a tonic (with the 5th in the bass - a 6/4 chord) or a dominant (V chord). In other words - a bII chord.

Why 'neapolitan'? Nobody knows.
Why '6th'?. Six, in legit analysis, signifies the 3rd in the bass and that the root is a 6th above the bass (a 6/4 chord is fifth in the bass, root a 4th above and the third is a 6th above that). As mentioned a N6 almost exclusively had the 3rd in bass up until maybe the middle of the 19th century.

What would precede it? (Antipasto, I know)

In Naples when three chefs make pizza ... and sing ... that's a Neapolitan chord.



And in Hong Kong it's called a Triad. And if you 'sing' you wind up in the pizza.

What would precede it? (Antipasto, I know):mrgreen:

Usually a I or i chord.

*I remember one of my profs mentioning something about occasionally making it a dominant chord and adding a fourth tone but that may make it one of the other augmented 6th chords (german or french). This was more than 25 years ago so don't quote me on that.

In Naples when three chefs make pizza ... and sing ... that's a Neapolitan chord.
Use it in a sentence. Lets see ... "Mozarts 'magic flute' has a really cool Neapolitan chord in act II - an Eb (It goes to a V7 - A7 because it's in Dm)."

It's a first inversion (3rd in the bass usually) major triad built on the lowered second degree of a major (or minor) scale. Usually it goes to a tonic (with the 5th in the bass - a 6/4 chord) or a dominant (V chord). In other words - a bII chord.

Why 'neapolitan'? Nobody knows.
Why '6th'?. Six, in legit analysis, signifies the 3rd in the bass and that the root is a 6th above the bass (a 6/4 chord is fifth in the bass, root a 4th above and the third is a 6th above that). As mentioned a N6 almost exclusively had the 3rd in bass up until maybe the middle of the 19th century.

It's good to see that at least somebody passed their theory courses. :twisted:

Passed ... T.A. :cool: :wink:

Why 'neapolitan'? Nobody knows.

Over here we have neapolitan ice cream - a triad of flavours, Chocolate , strawberry aaand.... vanilla!

Over here we have neapolitan ice cream - a triad of flavours, Chocolate , strawberry aaand.... vanilla!

How does that relate to Joe Bob's a la modal ruminations?

By the way, Joe Bob, are you still happy with your Heritage?
535? 555?

How does that relate to Joe Bob's a la modal ruminations?

well; (and you asked for it) - it never seems to last long in the phryg.

well; (and you asked for it) - it never seems to last long in the phryg.

LOL :lol:

well; (and you asked for it) - it never seems to last long in the phryg.


Maybe you should put a lyd on it

My kid likes mix(o) ins.

I've been known to do late night raids on the phryg. My wife tried putting a locrian it, but in the morning it was altered. I know, what an A-holian thing to do.

Maybe you should put a lyd on it

Done - feeling a bit flat, too.........

I've been way too busy lately and am just getting back to this thread. Now my head hurts and I have a metallic taste in my mouth. I need to play some major pentatonic for a while or something. I'll have a few questions tomorrow.

Here's a quick little "b5" thing you can always slip in.

Going to a G chord, one often plays some sort of D7 arpeggio. For example (descending):

F# D C A ... (and then onto the G chord)

Turn that into a Ab7 arpeggio (again, descending)

Gb Eb C Ab ... G

The colour tones are the same (F#/Gb and C), the Eb slips in there in passing and the Ab pulls you to resolve to a G note. It shouldn't sound outside.

And so, arpeggios rather than scalar on chord your are subbing in?



My favorite b5 (AKA tritone) sub for a V7 is the 7#11 Ex: turnaround in C - E7#9>A7b9>Dm7>Db7#11 and my favorite voicing is 98988x , so you get Db-F-Cb-Eb G or R,3,b7,9,#11. Very cool sound. I hear jazz/blues songs end on this as a tonic a lot.


Would you mind showing voicings on the other chords? Hendrix types on the E7#9 and A7b9? (I'm probably good on the Dm7.)

x 7 6 7 8 7 for the E7#9
x x 7 6 8 6 for the A7b9
10 x 10 10 10 x for the Dm7
I know the xx7565 is closer, but I like the Db7#11 voicing I already posted so I go up to the 10th fret for the Dm7 because I find it easier to get to the Db.

And so, arpeggios rather than scalar on chord your are subbing in?

My best advice would be to mix it up, but that was a simple arpeggio example, just to make the b5 sub as apparent as possible:

Here's a Am7 Ab7 G lick with that in mind (starting with an 8th note rest)

-----------------+---------------------------
-----5-8-7-4-----+---------------------------
---5---------5---+---------------------------
---------------6-+-5-...---------------------
-----------------+---------------------------
-----------------+---------------------------

x 7 6 7 8 7 for the E7#9



I don't have enough fingers. You're barring the G and E strings with your ring finger? And getting your pinkie over the top? How? I mean "Ow."

(I can almost play Klasaine's Db9b5: 4 3 4 4 3. Almost; sometimes.)

It's just an E9 with my pinky up a fret on the B string, so yeah, I guess I'm barring the G, B and E strings with my ring finger. Been doing it for over 40 years.

It's just an E9 with my pinky up a fret on the B string, so yeah, I guess I'm barring the G, B and E strings with my ring finger. Been doing it for over 40 years.

I'll get it. Not as bad as learning that first bar F chord.

I wouldn't play it. I refused to use that barre chord. I played the other strings with my four fingers and caught the low F with my thumb if I absolutely had to use the full F.