Live sound help??!!

Hi all, got some questions for you experts out there. Been playing at the local bar outside and need sound advice and tips. We're pretty novice but they let us play there...don't know why but we'll take it!! Anyway our live sound is terrible and i could use some help. I've been told we sound like just one big noise, we're a 5 piece..singer/acoustic guitar goes through the p.a., a baisic mackee mixer (6 channels), two tele players straight out of their hot rod deluxes, bass player through his amp, and the drummer not mic'd. I know this os not a good set up, but we're amateurs so any advice would be great!
Thanks a million
Wickk

Yeah, your set up is fine. It takes some knowledge, experience, and cooperation to get everyone's knobs set right. There are a million threads about this subject with some great advice that you can search for, but for starters I can tell you that it's VERY likely that your amps are too loud. As amateurs we all think that we have to crank the living $#^% out of our amps is a live setting and that's simply not true.
Also, each player has EQ setting on their guitars and amps that can be used to make for a clean sound. The hardest thing to get people to understand is that their favorite EQ settings at home will probably NOT be the best settings with the band. Everyone wants their guitar to sound huge and powerful with lots of bass, and throaty mids, and sparkling highs. What that means is that each guitarist is hogging up the entire frequency spectrum as if he's playing alone. If you learn how to use EQ to carve out some of the unneeded frequencies from each instrument you'll be amazed at the difference.
Now, knowing how to do these things and getting your bandmates to understand/cooperate is an entirely different matter!!
Do some reading and start experimenting. Have fun and good luck!

Cooleyman is probably right...

A good basic rule is to be able to hear everyone clearly. You probably need monitors, too.

And I'll bet the drummer is really loud. Start there.

Yup. Everything needs its own space in the frequency spectrum. On my amp I have lows on zero, mids on 4 and highs on two and a half. I don´t need the lows because the bass player is down there. I have just enough highs to give me definition because the cymbals are using that area. You also get more out of your amps by not asking them to amplify every frequency on every instrument.

Do the guitarists in your band use a lot of distortion? I always found the dist. on Hot Rod Deluxes to be VERY undefined. Flat out blurry. I used to have one and I´ve seen one other band where the guitarist had one. You may want to try a pedal overdrive.

Two guitars through the same amps won't help becasue of the EQ reasons given by the other posts - it helps if the guitars sound different to each other. Try turning everything down and then turning back up so its just loud enough to hear with the drummer.

You guys are awesome! Thanks for the advice, thats why I love this site, everybody is so willing to help out. Probably one up'n each other with volume is our first problem. It seems impossible to hear yourself sometimes...like you have to play by meory as opposed to hearing yourself. Is this common playing live and you have to get used to it, or is that where monitors come into play? Is it worth it to shell out the $$ for monitors? What about mic'n amps and running them through the p.a.?
Thanks
wickk

You need someone with a good ear to help you adjust the levels from out in the audience, and do what they say. Monitors are good. It can be simple as an amplifier of any sort, a guitar or bass amp, hooked to the monitor output of your board. Amps through the PA in not necessary on a small gig and is really not going to help you much if you don't have a sound man running the board.

Turn it down is probably number one.

Guitar players hate it, but if you listen to most music, guitars are pretty far back in the mix. If you are a vocal band, the other music really needs to be background except when the guitar player steps up for his big solo. In a typical mix, you will hear more bass and drums than guitars and all of them down low enough you can hear the vocals clearly.

The "volume wars" are a common and contant battle for most I think.(myself included) It helps if you try to find a "tone" that cuts through the mix rather than trying to force it through the mix with high volumes. That´s why giving each instrument it´s own sound is so helpfull. Also, the more people you have in the band the less each one should play. Each person should have a specific "line" that is different from and stays out of the way of the other parts. Your bands approach to a song could be part of the problem. Monitors are pretty important. When I set up sound I like to be able to hear the mains ok without the monitors and then ease the monitors up until I can hear the vocals clearly. That way I have a pretty good idea of what the crowd is hearing. I would advise not running everything through the PA. I´ve tried it and you end up feeling pretty disoriented because you really can´t tell what the crowd is hearing. You need a soundman for that kind of set up.

I'll tackle the "I can't hear myself" issue this way. Get a tilt stand of some sort and direct your amp at you and away from the others, and get 5 feet in front of your amp if possible.

Most people put their amp flat on the floor and stand 1-2 feet in front of it, so basically the sound is going right past their knees and never hitting their ears. Get the amps all the way at the back wall so you have more distance for the sound to reach you. Also the drummer will hear the guitars better if the amps are behind him. I see a lot of bands set the amps on a line in front of the drummer and he can't hear them at all over his own sound.

1) Turn down a little and back off the distortion.
2) Get your amps angled up and pointed at you, away from others.
3) Set the amps as far back of stage as possible.

Vocals have to rule the Sonic Roost.

Once the Vocals are Loud AND CLEAR, you can get started on instruments.
Double check this throughout the gig.
When you talk to the audience, and they respond, your vocals are doing ok.

Put your money where your mouth is, if everybody who sings have the same mic, EQ and feedback will be much easier to control.

I have ran sound for hundreds of shows.
While there are better mics, a Shure SM58 brings a lot of sonic bang for the buck.

If your Mackie has a Trim Control, Learn how to use it.
The Trim controls the the strength of the incoming Mic signal BEFORE it gets to the pre-amp.
If you have distortion (look for overload lights) before it gets to the Volume control, there isn't anything you can do.

Play with your Neck PU when the the singer is singing.
It will sound kind of muddy on stage, but out front, it clears a path for the vocals without turning anything up.

Guitar amps are very directional by nature. When your amp is on the stage floor, much of the sound goes right under your knees and knocks the 'taters right off of your audiences forks while they are sitting at their tables.
While the other guitarist is warming-up, take a slow walk around the stage. You will hear how different it sounds depending on where you are standing.

Speaking of Guitar Solo's, when the singer comes back in, you go out. Bring your Volume down on the same beat, even if you aren't 'finished'.
Trust me, I know it feels weird! But the Audience eats it up and doesn't even know it.

When the singer reigns supreme, people will praise you up one side and down the other about what a GREAT Guitar player you are. And they are right.
GREAT Guitar players a force-multipliers, they make everybody else sound better.

Thanks string tree, that is a wealth of information! Seems like we've got to learn. I do get the idea of building the band around the vocals, we surely play over top of the singer. Volume control is a skill in itself.

Thanks string tree, that is a wealth of information! Seems like we've got to learn. I do get the idea of building the band around the vocals, we surely play over top of the singer. Volume control is a skill in itself.

No substitute for playing in front of people.
I always learn more, faster, when the heat is on.

Talk to the Servers and the Bartender(s).
They aren't wasted like the audience is.
While they may say that its too loud, ask them to qualify their statement: Is there any thing that sticks out - good or bad?
Is there an over all tone that is in the way?
While their answer will never be 'Take some 580z out of the snare', they may be able to give you some insight you aren't getting on the stage.

If you do well, they make better tips. They want you to do well.

Don't listen to drunks.
Acknowledge them, but unless you know they know what they are talking about, fugggitaboutit.

True story.
I was in a band that was a house band at a local dive bar for 6 years in the 90's. We played hundreds of shows there.
One of the Bar tenders kept saying something was 'wrong' with our sound - every time we played there.
We had always had issues with that room with the EQ, so we blew it off.

We had a break for a few weeks and set everything up in the Garage to learn some new tunes and see how everything was working.
What this guy was hearing, but didn't know how to explain, was one of our sub-woofers was out of phase with the other three.

Fixed it, what a difference.

He noticed as soon as we started playing.

He was big in to Auto Repair, not stupid, just didn't know how to explain it.

Good luck with your gig.
Hope they keep having you back.

Long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...I was at an open mic. Someone I had never met asked me to play some fills behind his singing on Stormy Monday. I did.

Later he asked if I wanted to start a band with him...I'm really not very good and asked why me. He said it was because when he opened his mouth I quit playing.

Lesson learned. I'm still not very good but I'm still "playing in the band".

If you could borrow/rent a snake and find someone with a little experience and have them dial you in from out front. Pay them if you have to. It is amazing where your settings will end up. I also suggest you mic your amps and let the PA handle the house volume. in todays world of amps tone isnt held hostage by volume. also if possible have one guitar w humbuckers and the other with single coils to help with separation. We used wired in ear monitors..a Rolls personal headphone monitor amp for 60 buks each......works great for low vol stage but good house vol and less spkr crap to carry.

cheers

Whether or not you've mic'd your amps, whether you've got a 24 channel board and a sound man or just mixing yourself, the principles are the same: vocals should be up front, drums and bass should be in the middle with guitars added so that they can be well heard without being too loud. A good sound tech will bring up instruments for the solos then back into the mix.

If the drums and bass are too loud, then everyone will be. Start with EVERYONE's volume at about 60% of what everyting thinks what it should be, have someone with a good ear stand at different spots around the room and adjust each accordingly until you get a balanced sound that doesn't make yours or your audience's ears bleed.

Lots of great advice here. I'm gonna steal some, use it, and also expand on one point. When running my own sound from the stage I personally like to start off at very low volume at a bar/restaurant gig...ie. one where people primarily came to eat, drink, etc. rather than see the band. It is a MUCH better feeling when the bar owner (waiter, etc.) comes up and says "Hey can you guys turn up some? They are having a hard time hearing you all the way over in the corner." Compare that with how you might feel when they come up and say, "We need you to turn it down. People are complaining. You are too loud!!!"

I follow one simple, very important rule. Pay attention to each other!

If everyone in the band is paying attention to what is going on in the band, not just their personal sound, you will develop dynamics. Everyone HAS to be on the same page here, because it's all about the BAND sounding good. You can have all the sound equipment money can buy, and a soundman to try to mix everyone, but if everyone is all about blasting their amps and the drummer is banging away, it's still going to sound like mud. You can get a fine sound out of your little setup, if everyone cooperates and pays attention to each other during every song.

When I was younger, we had a friend that was a sound engineer come to our rehearsals and act as a director/conductor. He forced us to play "whisper quiet" in some parts and would bring us up at the appropriate parts of the songs. We were amazed at the difference in our sound, how the vocals could be heard and how everything went together so nicely. If you can find a friend to do this for your band(make sure it's someone you trust, understands what a bands sound should be, and isn't too shy to tell anyone in the band to shut up when appropriate), you will learn something very valuable that you will never forget and always use.

It has been said here too, but with two guitarists, you should not both sound the same(one cleaner with one crunchy...).

I'm playing in a variety band that plays mostly bars. We use a powered mixer and mic the kick drum and vocals. Our monitors are used to hear vocals. Almost always I can hear my guitar, the bass, the drums and the keys pretty well. We don't play loud. One gauge I use for judging front of house volume is the crowd. I watch when people are talking. Are they yelling in someone's ear or are they talking without bumping heads from a reasonable distance.
I think it's important to know also that when you start your first set in an almost empty room you don't need much voulme but when the room is packed you need to turn up.

So much good advice from everyone, thanks heaps! Playin tonight so I'm gonna be way more conscious everything, try to put to good use some of this excellent advice. Any suggestions for settings on the hot rod deluxe iii/telecaster to fill out the mid-range of the sound spectrum?
I have a feeling thats where I'm gonna need to step up.

Set your self in the direct line of Fire. You need to know how your amp sounds when you get it straight-on.

Set your tone like that, then go stand where you normally stand.

Kick some a$$. :)

Here is a one thread link to all of my live sound threads.
I suggest starting with the mixing from stage thread.


http://www.tdpri.com/forum/bad-dog-cafe/285121-one-thread-link-my-tutorials.html

You asked about monitors and yes by all means, when you can afford it, set up a good monitor system. I think it's almost more important than the mains. I wouldn't worry about re-enforcement just yet unless you're playing really big clubs. Build your system slowly but research what you need. Like others have said it's all about balance and listening to each other. Good ears are gold man.
You said your live sound was bad, what makes you say that? What are you hearing that you don't like or is it some one else saying it

Turn it all down. and start at a low volume.

Man you guys are AWESOME!! Took as much advice as I could remember and applied it, and last night was our best performance by far!! First off a friend of one of the guys set up the board, he does some sound work for other local bands, borrowed a floor monitor, agreed that the other guitar player would play a les paul, I played the tele, built our volume around the vocals, kept our guitars at a resonable level, started low and came up. Best compliments ever!! Everyone was saying how much better we sounded and you could tell by the applause and seeing people get into it. Can't thank you all enough for all the advice. Nothing better than the drunk guy at the bar saying how much "you guys rock!!!" after a set. Haha. Martin R. I used your words as a mantra up there, when the singer sang, we muted up playing or toned it way down, worked like a charm. I hope one day I can help somebody out the way you guys have helped me. Thanks again keep the good stuff rolling in, I'm sure other people are enjoying this advice as much as I am.
wickk

Thanks for the gig report. The forums are a lot of talk and conjecture and I'm sure most of the advice is ignored. It's good for me to learn the real world actual results of a discussion and this helps me be confident to apply the ideas my self.

Man you guys are AWESOME!! Took as much advice as I could remember and applied it, and last night was our best performance by far!! First off a friend of one of the guys set up the board, he does some sound work for other local bands, borrowed a floor monitor, agreed that the other guitar player would play a les paul, I played the tele, built our volume around the vocals, kept our guitars at a resonable level, started low and came up. Best compliments ever!! Everyone was saying how much better we sounded and you could tell by the applause and seeing people get into it. Can't thank you all enough for all the advice. Nothing better than the drunk guy at the bar saying how much "you guys rock!!!" after a set. Haha. Martin R. I used your words as a mantra up there, when the singer sang, we muted up playing or toned it way down, worked like a charm. I hope one day I can help somebody out the way you guys have helped me. Thanks again keep the good stuff rolling in, I'm sure other people are enjoying this advice as much as I am.
wickk

That's great! You got a consistent set of great advice from the guys, but it all comes down to whether your band members truly want to sound better as a whole unit, as opposed to making sure only that their individual instrument is loud and proud. The fact taht you could see/hear so much improvement in just one gig is a real compliment to you and your band mates!