Another first build: Boot Hill 5e3

I got my kit from Dave a few weeks ago, but have just now started to get into it. I'm a total been and have already exchanged a few emails with Dave regarding some been questions. I haven't worked on electronics since servicing Bradley Fighting Vehicle cannons over a decade ago and that never required soldering so this should be fun. Anyway, here is my populated turret board.

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Looks good so far! keep us informed please.

Here's the speaker I'm going to use: a 1956 Jensen P12R. Also got Classic Tone iron. I ordered my cab from Memphis Amps, but it's not here yet.

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I had a productive night! Here is my board all wired up. First solder job since making a volume box 10 years ago.

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Good luck with the build! I am getting ready to pull the trigger on a kit (likely from Boothill) as well. I will be watching :cool:

I haven't been able to get much else done to speak of. For every hour I spend working on the amp, I probably spend 3 on this forum trying to learn from all of you by reading your threads and replies. You guys have been a great resource and inspiration!

One thing that helped me a little was to go find every different amp builder's version of the 5e3 layout drawing, print them out and compare between them when something may be unclear on one drawing..... oh yeah, and call Dave a few times.

I did some more work on the build last night, but I would appreciate it if someone could check my work, especially the wiring on the input jacks. I've been using this old thread of Dave's for reference http://www.tdpri.com/forum/shock-brothers-diy-amps/306264-5e3-kit-under-construction.html but upon closer inspection, I may have used the wrong green wire on the 90 degree bend of my grounding buss. I think maybe I should have used the darker green wire for this? :confused:

This begs the question: Included in the Boot Hill 5e3 kit are a short length of a lighter green wire, a short lengthof brown wire, and a short length of a lighter red wire. Where do these wires get used?

Another question: the layout calls for a 500pf capaciter between the Tone pot and middle volume pot. The capacitor I wired up says 501k/500V. Did I use the right one?



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Here are some more shots. Sorry for the crappy cell phone pics.

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Anybody?

501 is a capacitor code, it means 500pF. So that should be the correct one. I can never remember the translations but there are online tools for it, and also electrodroid for Android phones.

I did some more work on the build last night, but I would appreciate it if someone could check my work, especially the wiring on the input jacks. I've been using this old thread of Dave's for reference http://www.tdpri.com/forum/shock-brothers-diy-amps/306264-5e3-kit-under-construction.html but upon closer inspection, I may have used the wrong green wire on the 90 degree bend of my grounding buss. I think maybe I should have used the darker green wire for this? :confused:

This begs the question: Included in the Boot Hill 5e3 kit are a short length of a lighter green wire, a short lengthof brown wire, and a short length of a lighter red wire. Where do these wires get used?

Another question: the layout calls for a 500pf capaciter between the Tone pot and middle volume pot. The capacitor I wired up says 501k/500V. Did I use the right one?

picknpluck,

Up front, I'm a noob, so not exactly qualified to proof your work, but...

Your inputs look to be true to Weber spec. Where's that green wire on the ground bus going to, the speaker jack? I used brown for between pots, and blue for coupling caps to volume pots. Red for power connections. Dave sent me a red-tinted copper wire for the ground bus, but I used a heavier gauge copper just like yours. I also used star-washers to ground all pots and jacks, as well as the switches (to keep them from loosening). I used the same 501K/500V where you did, and the slightly larger ceramic cap (.0047uF) from the left leg of the tone pot to ground on the back of the pot. Not sure about that last one, but nobody's said anything untoward. :wink:

Looking good! Please be safe, too!

Looking great so far !

Cant wait to see the finished product !

Thanks for the encouragement and replies! Charisjapan, the green wire coming off the ground bus goes to pin 9 on V1, I think, based on one of Dave's builds here: http://www.tdpri.com/forum/shock-brothers-diy-amps/306264-5e3-kit-under-construction.html but I'm beginning to second-guess this. I've got a question in to Dave about it and my earlier question about the other wires included in my kit. The further I get into this project, the more question I have, but this has been a completely awesome experience so far and I can't wait to plug my 335 in and hear it for the first time! I really enjoy learning about how amps work and the whole process. This definitely won't be my last build--I'm already contemplating an 18 watt and a Tweed Super! Plus a 5F1 for my son if he gets into guitars.

pick,

That green wire from V1 pin 9 and V2 pin 9 to ground on my builds is there b/c I used some Russian Preamp Tubes 6N2P instead of the traditional 12AX7 and 12AY7.

The Russian tubes have a different heater filament wiring.

Do you plan on using the Russian Preamp Tubes (they're good and they're inexpensive - about $4 a tube from the Russian Sellers on ebay) ?

If not, remove the green wire.

I threw those bits of wire in your kit for spare parts.

No, I have an EH 12AY7 for V1, a JJ 12AX7 for V2 and JJ 6V6's. Noted on the wires, thanks!

Looks like you're ready for ground wires from your pots to the bus. The tone control gets a .0047uf cap to ground. You can do it the Ceriatone way and save a step.

http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=22.0

Enjoying the build, from the sidelines....Great job!

Do I need the ground wire coming off the top left turret on my board? I installed it, too, based on pictures, but I'm unsure of where it goes.

Yes. It will go to ground on your 2 lug terminal strip which will be bolted under a PT nut.

SOlder the two lugs together with a piece of wire so they both make ground. Leave the holes in the solder tabs open. You will need them later.

You are referring to this piece, right?

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I got my board all wired up and installed in the chassis. However, I'm not completely thrilled with my wiring of the grounds coming off the volume/tone pots. Looking around at other builds, I like the look of running a lead from the tab and soldering it to the body of the pot. I may go back and re-do this.

The pot case is a shield against noise. When you use it as a ground, it becomes an active part of the circuit. It is no longer functioning as a shield, but as a part of the ground circuit.

This is one school of thought. Others do as you are thinking.

You say you like the look, which is an aesthetic consideration, but there is no valid reason to do it when you have that bus running under the pots.

Your grounds appear to be fine. So long as the solder joints are solid - you're good as gold.

Everything looks good. Nice and neat.

Thanks for the input. I've been fanatical about going back over my connections with a chopstick and making sure they're tight. I'll leave the ground wiring as-is. Next up: installing the tube sockets and wiring them up. I'm going to install my filament wires so they lay flush against the chassis, me thinks. I like that look much better and it appears much neater.

Progress is a bit slow, but I got a few free minutes to work on the amp. Got the trannies bolted up and my preamp sockets wired. I added cream knobs from Antique Electronics Supply and a metal pilot light from tubedepot. The jewel lamp cover will be blue. Wiring the filaments wires is trickier than I thought!

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Looks like good lead dress from the photos.

I think I'm ready to apply power. Anything look amiss in there?

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Looks good. Might need to install a longer B+ lead and snake it around by itself to the standby switch. Also no need to bunny hug the heater wires with the HT lines and rectifier heater.

Remember to Keep your fingers away from the innards when you turn it on. Don't want you to be a part of the Fireworks Display.

Drum roll! :wink:

Bueller? ...Bueller?

Well?

Sorry guys, gotta keep you in suspense a little bit longer. I've got a newborn so I've been super busy, but I'll plug it in tonight when I get home from class. I was debating on waiting for my cabinet to arrive (UPS tracker shows Monday) but I'm getting impatient. I'll give it a go on the bench tonight.

Hackworth, I did make those changes to the B+ lead and I clipped the zip tie holding the bundle of wires together.

Stupid question: The B+ lead you're referring runs from pin 8 on the rectifier socket to the standby switch, right?

Yes B+

Read thru these debugging and start up procedures

http://www.geofex.com/ampdbug/ampdebug.htm

Sweet! I was looking for something like that!

So finally, the moment of truth...

Turned Power and Standby switches to "on" with no tubes and plugged in...light comes on! No smoke or other tomfoolery.

Unplugged, left the switches on, installed the rectifier tube, then plugged back in. Pilot light comes on and filament lights up in the tube! Again, nothing abnormal.

Unplugged, switches on, installed preamp tubes. Lamp comes on, rectifier tube filament lights, so do the preamp tube filaments No odd noise, smoke, etc.

Unplugged, switches on, installed power tubes, insured vol/tone knobs set to lowest setting. Plugged in, lamp, rectifier, preamp and power tubes all light up.

Plugged in guitar, opened up volume/tone from amp and guitar and....nothing.:sad:

What's the step-by-step on checking voltages? I know about grounding the black lead to the chassis and one hand behind the back, just don't know the sequence of pins to check.

A quick update before I go to bed...

I plugged the speaker, the preamp tubes, and the guitar into another amp and they all worked so by process of elimination, it's not any of those factors. I'm too tired to be messing with this stuff tonight. I'll try to hit it again tomorrow, and hopefully some of you amp gurus can help me out.

Here we go again.....:wink:

Read this first...establish the PT and OT volts are ok....then check with just the rectifier.

http://www.paulrubyamps.com/info.html#FirstPowerUp

If everything seems ok then check the corresponding voltages using this layout with all tubes in, hope it's clear enough. Note if you have a 12AY7 in V1 the readings will be a bit lower there.

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx217/telenut62/5E3volts.jpg

If all voltages are ok, then check all ground connections

Well until someone more experienced jumps in

Start with V1 the first preamp tube, touch yor lead to pins 1 and then pin 2. Record the voltages, but what did you hear?
If you heard some popping when you touched pins 1 and 2 , then you probably have output, that's good.
If you heard the popping, then work backwards from pins 1 and 2 until you find where your signal is being lost.
Also check pin 3, you should have 1.5v or something close, if you have a lot more than that like 3v or higher, then check the ground on the cathode resistor.
Too much voltage on pin 3 will kill your signal.

Now when the guru's jump in they can help you from there.
Good luck and don't get frustrated.

Maybe you have done this already but I like to set my DMM to test continuity with an audio beep confirming. I take a fresh new printed layout and a hi-lighter marker. Amp off, no power, caps drained, I check every single connection at both ends and hi-lite them on the paper as I go along. That way I don't miss anything. I start there and then that is out of the way.

Dang!

Sorry it did not fire up for you. I have nothing to offer but support from the sidelines. I just just received my metal lamp from triode and will be finishing mine soon. Good luck and I might be in the same boat as you soon :sad:

That's a great suggestion, Keith. It is very good to test continuity in the manner you describe.
Make sure you drain your filter caps first.
How to Drain Filter Capacitors in a 5F1, 5E3 or 5F6A.
You should have a wire lead (a section of wire) with a rubber insulated alligator clip (clamp) on each end.
The group of three or four Large Capacitors can and do retain significant voltage after an amplifier is turned off and unplugged. These capacitors -
will normally drain their stored energy after an indeterminate period of time.
HOWEVER
Before working on or testing any amplifier, it is important to drain the filter capacitors to be sure that they are not storing enough energy to
shock you.
If an amplfier is functioning, you can play your guitar as you turn off the power switch. Listen to the sound "fizz out" and fade away after the
power has been cut while you strum. That was the stored energy in the capacitors. Unplug the power cord. The amp should now be safe to work on.
To be sure, read the voltage on any of the big caps. Set your multimeter to Volts DC. Use your wire lead with alligator clips and clamp one end to
a secure ground point on your chassis. Use the metal chassis itself if you must. Clamp the other end to the black probe on your meter.
With the amp unplugged, TOuch the red probe of your meter to any of the three capacitors positive leads or to its turret or eyelet solder joint.
You may read a small voltage and see it decrease on your meter as the caps drain this small voltage to zero volts (ground).
A fast way to drain these capacitors:
with the amp unplugged,
Using your wire lead with rubber insulation on your alligator clips, clamp one end to a secure ground point on your chassis. Clamp the other end
to a positive lead on any of the big capacitors. You may see a spark. You have hereby drained all the caps thru the doing the one cap. Make sure
you have rubber-insulated clips.

If you do not have rubber insulation on your alligator clips, You may clamp one end to a secure ground point on your chassis. Use the metal
chassis itself if you must. Next, using a wooden chopstick, clamo the other alligator clip to one end of the chopstick. Place the chopstick with
the clip attached to the positive lead on any of the big caps. Mkae sure the metal clip makes contact with the positive lead of any of the big
caps. You may see a spark. You have hereby drained all the caps by doing just the one cap.
If you wish, you may drain your caps more slowly by:

Using your wire lead with rubber insulated alligator clips, clamp one end to a secure ground point on your chassis.
Clamp the other end to the junction of the two 100 ohm plate resistors at the preamp end of the board.
In this case, there will be no spark.
After this procedure, test your caps by draining them using a direct method described above.

I built my own cap draining tool. I took a wire, cut it in half and soldered a 100 ohm resisistor in the middle, reconnecting the 2 wired again to 1 piece. I put small pieces of heat shrink on each end of the resistor where the wires connected to it. I then soldered a small rubber coated alligator clip on each end. I clip one end to ground, the other end to positive end of the caps. I let it sit there for a a brief time, I got get my DMM ready or take a swig of beer and she's drained and ready for work. The 2 alligator clips works great and there is no spark.

Keith!! Please tell me you don't drink and mess with amps!!!! Beyond a no-no! Otherwise, I made one of those too. Super handy.

Amps for me is a hobby. Sometimes I grab 1 beer from the fridge in my guitar room and enjoy my hobby with a cold one. One only. I am over 6 ft and 230 lbs. 1 beer is not a problem. Its all part of my work related stress release.

Amps for me is a hobby. Sometimes I grab 1 beer from the fridge in my guitar room and enjoy my hobby with a cold one. One only. I am over 6 ft and 230 lbs. 1 beer is not a problem. Its all part of my work related stress release.

Lol cool :). I'm having a giant beer @ Mexican as I type.

And yes it's sad that I'm checking tdpri...sigh...

I checked the voltages last night and here's what I came up with:

Filter caps from left to right
375 V
348 V
274 V

Preamp (right to left)
V1
Pin 1 183 V
Pin 3 1.39 V
Pin 6 193 V
Pin 8 1.39 V

V2
Pin 1 182 V
Pin 3 1.3 V
Pin 6 224 V
Pin 8 49 V

Power amp (right to left)
V3
Pin 3 366 V
Pin 4 347 V
Pin 8 24 V

V4
Pin 3 364 V
Pin 4 348 V
Pin 8 24 V

FWIW, I'm running a NOS RCA 5Y3 rectifier, JJ 6V6S in the power section, and JJ ECC83S in the preamp. Thoughts?

Amp should work. Are you getting any hum thru the speaker?

I think you have an input jack problem. Can you give a pic of the input jacks?

Your jacks may be shorting on your bus or on your turrets. Inspect clearance in this area. Make sure shorting jacks switches are closed.

It's a tight fit around the input jacks, but nothing appears to be touching. What are shorting jack switches? Also, no hum on the speaker, but it and the wire tested ok on another amp.

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Here's another shot. Hope it helps.

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It is hard to tell from the photos but it looks like you do not have anything connected to the tip of input 2 normal channel?

Should have a wire coming off of the 68k resistor to the tip of the input

EDIT: Sorry I think I see a red wire tucked in behind the yellow one. I assume that is going to the tip of the jack.

Stupid question but did you did not have the standby switch on when testing did you?

Let me respond to your question about my standby switch with a stupid question of my own: What position should the standby switch be in? The chassis labeling isn't really clear.

I've had the switch oriented toward the opening in the chassis, toward the "Standby" letters on the chassis. I'm assuming that is the position to disable the standby, allowing the guitar to work. FWIW, I've tried with the guitar plugged in and the switch in both positions.

Here is an earlier picture from my soldering template for clarity.

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My standby switch is off (amp working) with the toggle flipped toward the STANDBY text on the amp if that makes sense. I just thought I would ask becuase it is easy to overlook the obvious when your brain is trying to troubleshoot a million possibilities :lol:

As far as the jack wiring, I think it looks all correct. Are there any cold joints in the area? have you probed around the input jack solder points/wiring? Do hear ANY noise at all from the speaker?

I know I am not offering much here so hopefully others can help you out.

Post pics of the pot wiring and the output jacks

Standby and Main Power switch - both toward the opening in the chassis = on.

To begin. Both switches UP toward the flat surface of the chassis where the transformers are mounted. Power is off.

To start. Tubes in and speaker connected. Volume knobs on 0. Power on. Flip only the Main switch down toward chassis opening.

Normal Function = Pilot Light On. Heaters on. All filaments in all five tubes are glowing. Keep shields removed from V1 and v2 so you can see the filaments. They are deep inside the small tubes.

If that checks out

Flip the standby on. Now both switches are pointing toward the chassis opening.

You should hear a gentle hum from the speaker. Put your ear to it closely.
Turn volume knobs to increase the hum.

Turn volume down to zero. Plug in guitar and test.
Any sound?

Tell me what happens when you perform this series of operations.

Telenut, here are the pics you asked for.

Standby and Main Power switch - both toward the opening in the chassis = on.

Got it.

To begin. Both switches UP toward the flat surface of the chassis where the transformers are mounted. Power is off.

Got it.

To start. Tubes in and speaker connected. Volume knobs on 0. Power on. Flip only the Main switch down toward chassis opening.

Done

Normal Function = Pilot Light On. Heaters on. All filaments in all five tubes are glowing. Keep shields removed from V1 and v2 so you can see the filaments. They are deep inside the small tubes.

Done. Got pilot light and filaments in all tubes working.

If that checks out

Flip the standby on. Now both switches are pointing toward the chassis opening.

You should hear a gentle hum from the speaker. Put your ear to it closely.
Turn volume knobs to increase the hum.

No hum whatsoever. I plugged the speaker into my Blues Deluxe and it works.

Turn volume down to zero. Plug in guitar and test.
Any sound?

Tell me what happens when you perform this series of operations.

No sound with guitar. I plugged the guitar into my Blues Deluxe and it works.

I am pretty certain you have the speaker jacks wired wrong. Look again back at my thread for the closeup of my speaker jacks. I think this will solve your problem.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/shock-brothers-diy-amps/335671-my-boothill-5e3-build.html

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Not sure why this picture keeps showing up upside down, but you get the idea.

I am pretty certain you have the speaker jacks wired wrong. Look again back at my thread for the closeup of my speaker jacks. I think this will solve your problem.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/shock-bro...5e3-build.html

From the OT.... black is ground and green is tip, carry the tip to the external jack

The speaker jacks are self-grounding. The black wire from the OT goes to the tip of the main speaker jack, then connect the tips of both jacks.

Don't forget to connect the ground tab to the switching tab with a jumper on the main speaker jack.

Pryde, my output jacks are wired the same way yours are. The only difference is my jacks are oriented in the other direction. But I've got the black wire from the OT going into the side tab of the speaker jack and a wire connecting that tab with one of the tabs of the external jack. I've also got a jumper running from the center tab to the other side tab on the speaker jack.

I think the one difference I see between your jacks and mine is that I've got star washers between the jacks and the chassis, but that shouldn't have any effect, right?

From the OT.... black is ground and green is tip, carry the tip to the external jack

Whoops must had looked at the wrong OT....black is to tip :wink:

Maybe it's something about the picture, but what I see -

are two tips on two jacks with nothing attached to either tip.

Got another picture from a different angle?

Maybe it's something about the picture, but what I see -

are two tips on two jacks with nothing attached to either tip.

Got another picture from a different angle?


^^^This^^^

You clearly have something soldered to the ground tabs on both jacks. I beleive you have mistaken them for the tips.

I'm confused. What's the difference between a tab and a tip?

They mean the tab that connects to the tip of the 1/4" plug

Look at the Weber 5E3 layout, you'll see G,S,T at the jacks indentifying the three tabs.....Ground, Sleeve, Tip

It just clicked. :idea: I'll go home after work, make the fixes and report back!

There be three solder tabs on a tip-shunt jack aka shorting jack.

Usually, like Switchcraft Jacks and those Neutriks you have, the three tabs are aligned as follows:

Ground, Switch, Tip

Tip is the hot lead. The tab for the tip, if you will.
Tip= hot= signal

The switch - which shorts the signal input to ground when no male jack is inserted - is connected to the center tab.
The switch tab is generally connected (by you the builder) to the ground tab by a jumper - a piece of wire soldered to both the switch tab and the ground tab.

On inputs, This shorting mechanism keeps unused inputs quiet when not in use.

On outputs, if by accidental ommission, no speaker is connected - the shorting mechanism shows the OT a direct short instead of an open circuit.

The OT in a tube amp prefers a load ( a speaker), but it much prefers a short to an open circuit. (note: not true in transistor amps.)

Ground tab is ground.

In this case, the ground tab need not be connected to any wire. Because the jack itself makes ground. You can see that the ground tab is an extension of the central shaft of the jack. The body of the jack makes ground when it is bolted to the chassis.

The insulative material sandwiched between the different parts of the jack insures that the three components function independently and interdependently as required.

It looks like your tips have nothing on them.

Cut the black lead from wherever you have it. I think you have it to ground. Solder the black lead to the shorting jack's tip tab.

Unless all of this is clear to you, don't worry about the auxillary jack for now.

I think we have a breakthrough....streamers at the ready boys :wink:

Again just for reference. Here is the correct wiring:

http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/3599/img15r.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/805/img15r.jpg/)

Got it working! My cab came in yesterday. Now, just to finish up.

Hooray....:cool:

Again just for reference. Here is the correct wiring:

http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/3599/img15r.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/805/img15r.jpg/)

Thanks, pryde. I had the same wiring scheme as in your photos, but my jacks were flipped the wrong way. Once everything got switched around to the proper configuration, the amp sang!

Congrats, man!

Can't wait for the finished pictures.

('cept, these here amps is never done! :wink:)

charisjapan

Any updates? How's it sound? Any completed pictures? C'mon!

I've been out of town for the past week so the amp sits, awaiting my return. I'll post up as soon as I get done.

Check the input wiring. That was what got me.

Fatknuckle

I got the amp working. It was a mis-wired output jack. I just need to install the chassis in the cab. I really haven't had time to play through it yet, other than a really quick test. Hopefully I can finish it out next week when I get back home.

Got the chassis and speaker into the cabinet. I'm picking up a custom faceplate today and I made my own tube chart so hopfully I'll have a few minutes to finish up tonight. With a newborn at home, free time is virtually nonexistent. You dads know what I'm talking about. Hopefully I can get some playing time on the amp this week.


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Here's a gut shot next to my Blues Deluxe Reissue. Night and day difference!

I finally got my amp finished out. Plugged my Tele in last night and the amp sounded awesome! No noise, just warm, tweedy goodness. Unfortunately, it was too late to crank up, but I'll have some time on Saturday for that. I can't wait to experiment more with the controls and my Gibsons. I had the nametag made at a local trophy shop. Carsten is my son, who was born during the build. :grin:

Here are a few more shots. Bruce at Memphis Amps did a great job on the cabinet. The tube chart was the result of about 5 minutes on MS Word and glued in with Elmer's glue. Creme chickenhead knobs are courtesy of Antique Electronics Supply and the blue jewel lamp came from tube depot. My tube set includes a NOS RCA 5Y3GT, JJ 6V6S in the power section, an EH 12AY7 in V1 and a JJ ECC83S (12AX7) in V2. The transformers are Classic Tone and the speaker is a 1956 Jensen P12R. Thanks again for everybody that helped me out here on this forum, especially Hackworth1.
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Thank You. Very nice work on everything.

Sweet...congrats with the new arrival....and the bab to :wink:

Fantastic! love the name badge. Congrats on a new amp and a new boy. What a treat :grin:

Fantastic! love the name badge. Congrats on a new amp and a new boy. What a treat :grin:

Thanks! The name badge, to me, really sets the amp apart. I was really pleased when I picked the badge up from the trophy store earlier this week.

(And my newborn son is such a blessing!)

Great build, PicknPluck!

A most sincere congratulations to you and yours on the birth of Carsten, AND his amp!! :wink:

Love that badge, man. That is a thoughtful momento.

charisjapan

enjoy the amp and the baby!

Thanks to all for the kind words! I'm looking forward to building a 5F1 with him in a few years.