"Alt" chords?

In one of the arrangements we are doing in the big jazz band I am in (lots of horns, bones, saxes in addition to the rhythm section) there are a couple references to D7alt and C7alt. I asked a very experienced piano player and arranger what that meant, and he said it was changing one note in the chord to act like a passing note to the next chord. It wasn't enough of a change to the chord to warrant a new chord name, so they just called it "alt". That didn't make whole lot of sense to me. And besides. I have only chords and rhythm in my music, so no hint as to what the rest of the notes in the "band" might be.

Doing a quick google seems to say that alt7 means take a dominant 7 and either flat the fifth, sharp the ninth, or add any/all of 6, 9, 11, 13. So do I just try to hear what the horns are doing? And if I am just background rhythm and some melody instrument is playing the line with the altered note in it, do I even need to play it?

Thank you for your wisdom. First gig of the year at Kennywood Park July 1.
-bh

The alterted notes are b9, #9, b5(#11) and #5. The 6, 9, 11, 13 are not altered notes but extensions.

The piano player was sort of making sense I think. By that I mean if you can voice lead using the altered notes that sounds great but using them in that way is not what defines them.

You re on the right track. "Altered"means that the 5th or 9th is altered (raised or lowered).

I would probably just stay out of the way and play the basic root-3rd- 7th chord.

What kind of big band playing are we talking about here? Modern stuff? Or are you in a classic, freddie green type role?

If it's the latter, small voicings, 3rds and 7ths, and stay out of the way!

I would probably just stay out of the way and play the basic root-3rd- 7th chord.

Great advice.

Thanks for all your replies. This is classic big band stuff. "Mack the Knife" in this case. I will just stay out of the way as suggested.

(bigfatjazz.com (http://bigfatjazz.com))

Much obliged..
-bh

here is a good article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_chord ... my advice to guitarists on learning advanced chord theory ... get a cheap keyboard from CL or a thrift store...

+1 on playing root_third_seveth.

But in the fullness of time, playing altered chords, say in a small combo, sounds mighty jazzy,

Alt chords are usually played as a 7th#5#9 on the guitar because it is an easy one to grip.

While an altered chord could have a raised or lowered 5th and 9th when you see an alt chord (i.e. G7alt) it is assumed you play a raised 5th and 9th in your voicing in addition to important chord tones. b5s/#11s and b9s are usually marked specifically.

Source: degree in jazz performance/theory.

Alt chords are usually played as a 7th#5#9 on the guitar because it is an easy one to grip.

In the recent thread on backcycling, JazzTele wrote:

"So to get from, say, F to Bb, I could play Fmaj7 to Em7b5 to A7alt to Dm7 to G13 to Cm7 to F7 to Bb...follow the roots...right backwards through the cycle...if I started to use a tritone sub or two in there you'd really get some great motion... "

When he wrote A7alt, would you guys know what exact alt he meant, or did he (you, if you are reading this) just mean some alt of the player's choice?

I use my ears, and the melody of the tune. I can usually hear voice leading telling me where to go...


As for go-to's, nine times out of ten it does seem the #5/b13 works...I'm hesitant to suggest that the #5#9 chord is the way to go though, I'd rather use my ears and decide...I seem to hear #5b9 quite a bit.


I write "alt" in a chart if I trust the players to make the right call. If I need a chord played a certain way, I write it as such.

+1 on playing root_third_seveth.

But in the fullness of time, playing altered chords, say in a small combo, sounds mighty jazzy,


...and even the root you can leave to the bass :) according to Fareed Haque's (in his Jazz Comping Survival Guide) 3rd and 7th are the guide/color tones that will keep you employed for the next 20 years :mrgreen:

I use my ears, and the melody of the tune. I can usually hear voice leading telling me where to go...


As for go-to's, nine times out of ten it does seem the #5/b13 works...I'm hesitant to suggest that the #5#9 chord is the way to go though, I'd rather use my ears and decide...I seem to hear #5b9 quite a bit.


I write "alt" in a chart if I trust the players to make the right call. If I need a chord played a certain way, I write it as such.

So A7#5b9 = 5x5666? Is that the devil's alt. chord?

Ha ha!

Sometimes I'll just play x x 8 6 6 x

Or put a G on the bottom....if I'm feeling saucy.

So A7#5b9 = 5x5666? Is that the devil's alt. chord?

'diabolus in musica' that's the tritone, the essence of the plain seventh chord !

In the recent thread on backcycling, JazzTele wrote:

"So to get from, say, F to Bb, I could play Fmaj7 to Em7b5 to A7alt to Dm7 to G13 to Cm7 to F7 to Bb...follow the roots...right backwards through the cycle...if I started to use a tritone sub or two in there you'd really get some great motion... "

When he wrote A7alt, would you guys know what exact alt he meant, or did he (you, if you are reading this) just mean some alt of the player's choice?

Love how Leon's still on this. :lol:

My understanding is that altered means either 5 or 9 sharped or flatted, as already stated here, and that it was basically up to the player. In fact, my jazz guitar teacher said that you can sometimes even squeeze in several of them over the same chord if there's enough time (long chords like in Blue Bossa). So, based on my understanding, no - you wouldn't know exactly what alt he meant, but he may not have meany anything specific ... and it'd be up to you in any case.

Love how Leon's still on this. :lol:

My understanding is that altered means either 5 or 9 sharped or flatted, as already stated here, and that it was basically up to the player. In fact, my jazz guitar teacher said that you can sometimes even squeeze in several of them over the same chord if there's enough time (long chords like in Blue Bossa). So, based on my understanding, no - you wouldn't know exactly what alt he meant, but he may not have meany anything specific ... and it'd be up to you in any case.

I just wanna understand what you guys are talking about. More expansively, I think there must be some more or less standard or typical voice leading or grip leading things y'all use. Like the #5b9, easy to grab chord. I suspect there's Ted Greene and then there's the go to everyday chords that get used a high percentage of the time in certain situations. I like to try to pick up some of those. If you don't aspire to be a real jazz player, you can dabble and pick up some stuff you can use.

'diabolus in musica' that's the tritone, the essence of the plain seventh chord !

That one has the diabolus and the sign of the beast. Wicked cool.

Ha ha!

Sometimes I'll just play x x 8 6 6 x

Or put a G on the bottom....if I'm feeling saucy.

So what is the Em7b5 grip that leads to that?

X x 8 7 5 x or x x 8 7 8 x

Or x 10 8 7 5 x !

So A7#5b9 = 5x5666? Is that the devil's alt. chord?

x5666x is also a great Bb7#9
x56664 is pretty cool too. (barre the three notes at the 6th fret with your ring finger and grab the high Ab with your first finger)
*It's also an E13b9 as well as four º7 chords: D Ab B and F

As for the OP, I'd like to see some context.
Can give us an exact example? Say a bar with the chord in question with one bar on either side of it.

So what is the Em7b5 grip that leads to that?

I like this (in the spirit of JT's A7alt. stretch)
E-11b5 : xx733x (or, for extra credit x7733x)
A+5-9 : xx866x
D-∆9 : x5365x

*Don't do those on your big band gig - lol! (how to lose a gig 101)

That Em11b5 voicing (also a kick ass Gm6/9) is one of my favorite voicings ever. It makes the guitar worth playing.

But yes, do that on the big band gig, and it will be your last.

BTW...the band sounds great...not judging here Op...but I gotta know...how did you land a gig with this group and not know an alt chord? Lucky! You get to learn on the job with a great group...enjoy it!

Or x 10 8 7 5 x !

You're making them work the old grey matter mate..not to mention giving the LH some deep tissue massage..:mrgreen:

Yep - if the OP could furnish an example..
Big Band guitar charts do often include every passing tone/voice leading in each chord - even in classic tunes, but usually because you are playing on the beat - and the passing tone is sometimes somewhere else, i.e off the beat- it's a question of using your ear to judge whether a) its actually working and b) grabbing it doesnt upset the flow of chords - e.g. playing '4' at up tempos is hard enough and the main reason you are there is to ride with the rhythm section.

but man if it sounds good then its worth practicing to get those notes in - in my experience, although its one of the toughest things to do at up tempos.

X x 8 7 5 x or x x 8 7 8 x

Or x 10 8 7 5 x !

Okay, those top two are good. I only know two grips for mb7, and can't hit either one reliably. Those are more doable as stabs; need to keep working on the ones I supposedly know with bottoms on the bass strings though.

You're just showing off again (or showing out, as we say down here in the South), with that bottom one.

That Em11b5 voicing (also a kick ass Gm6/9) is one of my favorite voicings ever. It makes the guitar worth playing.


And an awesome (as we like to say in Cali) C13.
Play that on a big band or western swing gig and they'll show you out the door.

I gotta go "classical position" for that one. Not grabbing that on the fly either....

I like this (in the spirit of JT's A7alt. stretch)
E-11b5 : xx733x (or, for extra credit x7733x)


I had to temporarily dislocate my pinky for that one. You guys must have gigantor hands.

*Don't do those on your big band gig - lol! (how to lose a gig 101)

I know(knew:wink:)one or two horn players who get nasty if you played those on a small group gig too..

Im thinking a new thread - chords that have lost you a gig..:twisted:

I believe this is a result of trying to fit the "square peg" of jazz improv into the "round hole" of classical music theory. These alt chords seem to come from someone transcribing an improvised line and trying to attach some meaning to a moving part of a melody. What the altered notes are depends on the melodic flow of the line. If these are orchestrated parts like horn stabs, they probably should be written out explicitly.

These alt chords seem to come from someone transcribing an improvised line and trying to attach some meaning to a moving part of a melody.

Well thats part of the story but not all of it.
Its understood by Jazz players that 'altered' refers to harmony that derives from ascending melodic minor harmony - i.e. a specific set of tones - not just any passing tone or voice leading component. It has resulted in real weight being given to strictly 'altered' tones.

Altered dominant and altered Major sounds derived from the melodic minor are all diatonic to that scale - not just chromatic add -ins.

Where you are right is that much of the theory that comes from this is indeed derived from improvised lines and composed jazz melodies - George Russell is responsible for the main body of what we interpret as chord/scale relationships in jazz.
It always interests me that there is a big difference between the music that the theory was derived from and the music that was derived from the theory - anyway this is off OP - for further fun -read George's Lydian Chromatic concept :mrgreen:

As guitarists we're relegated to playing 'partial' alt dom voicings anyway.

A piano player will often play E G# C B (or Bb) D G. That's a E7+5+9 or think of it as C over E7 - two separate chords. As slowpinky mentioned you're very well served by understanding Melodic Minor (ascending only) harmony. That's really where all the alt stuff, both chord voicings and lines come from.

I know it might go against the "rules", but when in doubt, you can leave out the 5th (and 9th) altogether. In a big band, someone else is playing it, maybe even several other people.

A word of caution on the R-3-7 chords: if you use them on the 5th and 6th strings, you can really stomp on the bass player. Even if you're not covering him up; remember that close intervals in low registers do not sound good. Usually, the result is an unpleasant "rumble" type noise. This is why many people don't play the low E string on an open C chord, (and they shouldn't anyway), and why in most situations, a keyboard player should sit on his left hand.

Very true...

It's also important to note the warm, neck pickup, Wes Montgomery tone we've all spent years and dollars on perfecting will sound like crap for the purpose of big band rhythm guitar.

Boy, lots of new stuff in this thread since I last looked!

+1 on the most common alts being #5 or #5b9, for me anyway.

In the jazz guitar forum there was a recent thread about having more than one kind of 5th or more than one kind of 9th in a chord, like b5#5 or b9#9. Not so common on guitar and this would be for colour, a tone cluster ... although it might sound like another cluster. As I wrote there, I like this b9#9 chord -- sounds minor.

E7b9#9 xx6763
Amin(Maj7) xx7554) [or just Amin7 xx7553]

I like the sound of the parallel Maj7 interval in the outer voices as G/G# goes to G#/A, but that may just be me.

I had to temporarily dislocate my pinky for that one. You guys must have gigantor hands.

Some chords take years of practice.

I know(knew:wink:)one or two horn players who get nasty if you played those on a small group gig too..



If 'one or two' horn players don't like it on a combo gig then I get nasty - :twisted:.

It's also important to note the warm, neck pickup, Wes Montgomery tone we've all spent years and dollars on perfecting will sound like crap for the purpose of big band rhythm guitar.

My Benedetto Bravo has a very natural, almost acoustic type sound. Not your "typical" bassy jazzbox sound at all.

The OP's arranger guy's explanation does make a lot of sense to me, though I doubt I'd be able to 'read' it live.

You takes your chord. Then you takes the next chord. The 'alt' is in the middle. Moving which note of the first chord gets you closer to the second chord? That's your alteration.

In quite a bit of sheet music (especially stuff that's been transcribed from audio somehow), there's an awful lot of really, really, odd chords. Well, they're odd if you think of them as chords-as-harmony. But if you think of those odd chords as a bridge from one chord to another chord, it begins to make sense.

Or maybe it's jsut because I see a lot of that sort of music printed that it makes sense to me.

For example, one piece I was/am learning to play has a section where the (guitar chords) are played as D-A-D-F#, D-A-C#-F#, D-A-B-F#. I've seen this written in ways that would look like Klingon or line noise if I tried to write out the chord symbols.

But what's really happening is that the melody is D C# B at that point. The standard D chord already as a root, so following the melody works, especially as the melody C# really clashes with the D right above it. It's not really harmony, it follows the melody.

The sort of alt chords in the OP are sort of like that. But yes, if everyone's not on the same page, it can sound awful. Or like Dixieland (if done right).\

But remember, there's also a big difference between doing it with a single line instrument to give your line a decent melody, as in a sort of voice leading, and doing it on a polyphonic instrument, where the result can get muddy.

That Em11b5 voicing (also a kick ass Gm6/9) is one of my favorite voicings ever. It makes the guitar worth playing.

But yes, do that on the big band gig, and it will be your last.

BTW...the band sounds great...not judging here Op...but I gotta know...how did you land a gig with this group and not know an alt chord? Lucky! You get to learn on the job with a great group...enjoy it!

Thank you for the compliment.

To answer the question:

1. The recordings on the web site are all before my time. I've only been with them 15 months or so, but the rest of the guys sound about the same. When they lost their previous guitarist, they went through a series of "kids" (I am 54) with loud guitars and no tone. I at least understood that a big band guitar needs to be clear and "punchy", not Wes Montgomery or Carlos Santana. Started with Dean Palomino, now on an Epiphone Emperor Regent (with internal transducers in addition to the mini-humbucker).

2. This is mostly just for fun. We only had one gig last summer, and only have four planned this summer so far. This is a non-paying gig. Just for fun and experience.

3. I came in knowing cowboy chords, and rock barres, maybe a ninth here or there. This HAS been great learning experience and a lot of fun.

Thanks everyone for all the help. I am glad this turned into a lively thread.

-bh

I asked a very experienced piano player and arranger what that meant, and he said it was changing one note in the chord to act like a passing note to the next chord. It wasn't enough of a change to the chord to warrant a new chord name, so they just called it "alt". That didn't make whole lot of sense to me.

That doesnt make any sense to me at all - lol

There are perfectly ok ways to notate this stuff with chord symbols - and sure, it takes some experience to recognise them but its all fairly self explanatory.

Think of the classic 'This Masquerade' - Gm(G) - Gm9/maj7(F#) - Gm7(F) - Gm6 or C9 (E) .... its saying G F# F E - voice leading.

raito - your example reads as D, Dmaj7, D6 - its not that bad right?- it is the application of some theory to a cause - so recognising the voice leading in the chord notation and/or by ear is important. There's nothing being 'altered' there - changing chords and altering chords are two different things.


e.g . Gm13, C7b9b13, Gm7, C7#9#11 - F69(or maj13) - this kind of stuff crops up in big band charts all the time. The 2 C7 chords are altered dominants because they have altered extensions.

I'd be hearing/thinking something like the line below along with the 3rd and 7th of each chord - I'd probably play it all too in a ballad, or somewhere where the guitar is actually audible:wink: - in a fast 4 to the bar I'd keep it simple and stick to the basic root, 3rds and 7ths as the other guys have suggested.

This kind of thing is usually notated properly in the piano chart (hardly ever in the guitar part ) - and very ocassionally you'll get a line written in the staff to build the chords around - but - if Im any doubt I'll go to the piano part first.

You'll start seeing in some sequences of chords that the voice leading will become self evident after a while.

Like I said before - sometimes what is written in "1 chord -1 beat" guitar chord notation literally 'follows' the voice leading - and isnt quite in sync with it - best to play it safe and simple then.

btw ronkmd - sorry for the lecture - I understand what you were referring to now - I agree.

Yeah, I guess that example isn't that bad. The ones I was originally thinking of were worse, but I wanted one that I had the notes to in my head while I was posting from work and trying to make it intelligible. Got 2 things mixed up there. Sorry.

My real point there was that really, it's all D chords. Whoever wrote the transcription tried to force all the notes into chords, which wasn't what was going on in the music at all.

Sure, hearing the leading is important -- how else do you think I figured out that the melody was mixed in?

And yes, you can precisely notate the whole thing with chord symbols. My point is that it seems like half the time it's not the actual chords that are being notated.

And yes, it's not 'alteration' in the traditional sense. My example was supposed to be the sort of thing the arranger was talking about. But looking on it, my example doesn't really support my point, because the underlying chord doesn't change.

It's clear in my head. It's just as clear that I'm not making myself understood well today.