A,D,E vs. Am,F,G

Learning cover songs for the last 30 years, I have noticed something:

A,D,E (1,4,5) is the tradional chord sequence for alot of rock and blues songs in the key of A. Everyone calls it 12 bar blues and usually solos in the dorian mode.

But, Am,F,G sounds MORE bluesy for the key of A. Soloing in the aoelian mode works great I have found. Is there a name for this sequence?

That's a simple 1,4,5, in C, but substituting C's relative minor for the tonic. That's why the A aeolian sounds good. A aeolian is the relative minor of C major.

Learning cover songs for the last 30 years, I have noticed something:

A,D,E (1,4,5) is the tradional chord sequence for alot of rock and blues songs in the key of A. Everyone calls it 12 bar blues and usually solos in the dorian mode.

But, Am,F,G sounds MORE bluesy for the key of A. Soloing in the aoelian mode works great I have found. Is there a name for this sequence?

They do? I must be missing something, then.

FWIW, I don't think Am F G is the key of A at all.

Serious question - do you really consciously stay in any particular mode or scale when you solo?

FWIW, I don't think Am F G is the key of A at all.

it actually is! :razz:

http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/chords-key-a-minor.html

They play dorian over A D E?

Good lord, thank goodness I listen to good music.

it actually is! :razz:

http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/chords-key-a-minor.htmlSorry, but Am - F - G is in the key of A minor, not A, which refers to the key of A major.

it actually is! :razz:

http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/chords-key-a-minor.html

No. That's the key of Am. The key of A and the key of Am are two different keys.

i have know idea what any of this means....

it actually is! :razz:

http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/chords-key-a-minor.html

Actually, it's not.

i have know idea what any of this means....

Me either...and I STARTED the thread.:!::confused:

oh yes, it's based on the key of C Major.

But wait, isn't an A-minor just an A-Major with a b3? Am I really missing something ... DOH!

i have know idea what any of this means....

i thought i did ... apparently not! I'll go and hide now :lol:

An Am chord is an A major chord with a flat third, but the key of Am is not the key of A. You may be really missing something.

An Am chord is an A major chord with a flat third, but the key of Am is not the key of A. You may be really missing something.

thank you ... see, I learned something new today

The key can be Am, which is just the C scale adjusted by three degrees... aka Aeolian Mode/Natural Minor played over A... C Ionian, D Dorian, etc

oh yes, it's based on the key of C Major.

But wait, isn't an A-minor just an A-Major with a b3? Am I really missing something ... DOH!

When you flat the third it becomes a whole new thing so it's not really accurate at all to say that they are essentially the same it's just that one has a flatted 3rd compared to the other. It's just not really useful (as you've now found out :mrgreen:) to think of it that way. Do they share similarities in their construction? Sure. Does that make them even close to being the same thing? Absolutely not.

So now that the majority is in (correct) agreement that Am,F,G is not in the key of A, I'd take a stab at answering the OP's originally intended question.

If folks are using minor modes/scales in A to solo over either of these progressions, the second progression probably works a bit better because of all the minor thirds (of A D and E) being emphasized by playing Am F and G. Plus, what TinyGomery already said.

But once again, JazzTele nails it - why A Dorian over ADE?

It is all related to interval spacing...

Natural Minor Scale: whole half whole whole half whole whole
Major Scale: whole whole half whole whole whole half

Here's the main way I approach a mode: as a set of notes/chords for composition. I never try to improvise by consciously staying within one scale/mode. The thing that happens is the second you play a note outside the mode, you have to rename the mode you're in. My urgent suggestion is learn the MAJOR scale down cold. Harmonize every note in the major scale and learn what kind of triad is named by each degree of the major scale. This'll keep you busy a while.

It is the space in a solo that makes it interesting.... likewise, it is the gaps in knowledge that lets someone 'know' Aeolian but not understand the initial question.... and thus, I kind of interesting but strange thread.

Why do my green pants look so good, is that a 67 Dodge truck transmission?

I used to think of the major intervals like a phone number in half steps: 221-2221.

They play dorian over A D E?

Good lord, thank goodness I listen to good music.

He means, I think, A minor pentatonic plus what Larry calls the sweet notes. I've never thought of that as dorian, but you could call it that, kinda.

The thing that happens is the second you play a note outside the mode, you have to rename the mode you're in.

Putting this imperfectly, I think of a scale as a framework in which I am most likey to find the right note. Cutting the 12 possibilities down to 7. You can step out whenever you want to and step back in. Dominants, for example. The altered notes are just variables to the scale. And you can think of the major scale as a framework, and play the b7 whenever you want and think of it as a variant, or think of the dominant scale as a seperate entity, or think of it in both ways at the same time.

I agree otherwise; you don't want to lock yourself in, and one really, really should learn the major scale, no matter what kind of music you play.

They play dorian over A D E?

Good lord, thank goodness I listen to good music.

I am assuming he meant A Dorian over a blues progression which would have the notes A B C D E F# G

So this would be all of the notes of A minor pentatonic and A major pentatonic as well as all of the notes of the D major Pentatonic. This would be a nice set of notes over an A blues I think.

I am SO staying out of this one.

I am assuming he meant A Dorian over a blues progression which would have the notes A B C D E F# G

So this would be all of the notes of A minor pentatonic and A major pentatonic as well as all of the notes of the D major Pentatonic. This would be a nice set of notes over an A blues I think.

It includes ALL of the notes of A major pentatonic?
Not quite, I think . . . What about the C# ?

A,D,E, as you correctly said are the 1,4 and 5 chords of A Major. Playing the major scale, the notes are A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#.
Am, F, G are the 6, 4 and 5 chords of C major, (or the 1, 6 and 7 of A minor, I believe...). The notes in A minor/C major are A, B, C, D, E, F, G.

Playing blues lead guitar in an A Major blues, you have the choice of using either the Major or the minor scale. BB King often uses the 'happier' major scale, Eric Clapton often the 'bluesier/edgier' minor scale. His solo in Crossroads is a good example of both scales. Blues is often about mixing these two, and playing minor scale lead over a chord structure in the major scale.

Playing in A minor (Am, F, G), the major scale will sound wrong, so you use the minor (aeolian) scale.

So, you can play the A minor scale over an A minor chord structure. All the notes will sound correct and in their place, and very melodic.
You can also play the A minor scale over an A Major chord structure. This will sound very bluesy, and create a certain tension between the lead and the rhythm.

Simple no?:mrgreen:
Take some time to digest.

Yeah...I'm gonna bow out now too before I lose friends...

Lot's of confusion in this thread. I'll answer the OP and skip the rest.

Learning cover songs for the last 30 years, I have noticed something:

A,D,E (1,4,5) is the tradional chord sequence for alot of rock and blues songs in the key of A. Everyone calls it 12 bar blues and usually solos in the dorian mode.

If it's 12 bars it may be a 12 bar blues, but it may also just be called a I-IV-V or 1-4-5. The chords are I-IV-V. 12 bars is a matter of duration and hints that it is of a certain structure (with variations). Blues or not is more a matter of how you approach it.

On a side note, AJBaker sums it up pretty well in his post above.

But, Am,F,G sounds MORE bluesy for the key of A. Soloing in the aoelian mode works great I have found. Is there a name for this sequence?

The sequence can be called i-VI-VII or a minor 1-6-7.

It includes ALL of the notes of A major pentatonic?
Not quite, I think . . . What about the C# ?

You are right, my mistake good thing I started lessons again last night.

So, ya'll determine the key of the song by the mode that is played?

I have always determined the key of a song by finding the first and last note. That is usually the key and the "tonal center" (ha! can't believe I used that term).

After determining the key in this way, I then can play ANY mode I want and get different emotions by using the different modes...as long as I return to the key note on a regular basis.

Is my theory uncatagorized?

Okay, I can't look away...

Determining key is fine...95% of the time the "last chord" rule works...Last chord of the tune is the key you're in, i.e. song ends on G major, tune's in G major.

There is that 5% of the time...but...that's another post for another day.

Now, as for establishing key and then going "modal." Yeah...not really...not saying that it can't work but...no.

The modes, first of all, come in major and minor flavors...

Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian contain a major 3rd...Mixolydian also has the flat 7th--actually, If you spell out the mixolydian mode, it's a 13th chord...I've heard it called the "dominant scale."

Ionian is your good old major scale--"do re mi"

Lydian is the coolest of all modes...very hip. It's like a maj7#11 chord...a lot of folks find the #11 (raised fourth) to be a more "consonant" note than the perfect fourth--i.e, over a maj7 chord you could hang on a #11--but a perfect 4th sounds "off."

Then you have your minor modes...

Dorian's very useful...it's a great minor scale, and often, the inclusion of the 6th (as opposed to the b6 in the Aeolian) is a better choice over minor chords...particularly tonic minors and those functioning as a ii (is the next chord after the minor a dominant? then likely it's functioning as a ii)

Anybody glazing over yet?

Aeolian, Phrygian, and Locrian have uses too. Most of the time, people say Phrygian has a "Spanish" sound, but I really equate that with the "Phrygian Dominant scale"--which is a mode too--but not of the major scale. But I digress.

The idea of picking a mode and getting it's mood doesn't really work in most situations...I mean, if the band was just giving you an "A" drone behind you, go to town--any "A" scale could be fair game. But the truth is, most modes have specific applications, and are much more useful in playing "changes," than in staying in a mode for a whole progression (exceptions are Grateful-dead-ish "mixolydian jams" and Santana tunes/ Allman brothers instrumentals...)

I before E except after C

oh yes, it's based on the key of C Major.

But wait, isn't an A-minor just an A-Major with a b3? Am I really missing something ... DOH!

No.

Triads (3 notes in the chord) are defined by the Root, 3rd and 5th

Amin is A C E where the C is the minor 3rd

Amaj is A C# E where the C# is the major 3rd

While Am minor does have a minor 3rd relative to A major, it is incorrect to use that term.

As for soloing:

Over Am, you can use Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian depending on the flavor that you want.

Over Amaj, you can use Lydian or Ionian depending on the flavor that you want.

If you want a dominant flavor, play Mixolydian.

Not to confuse you but if you were to have both notes in the chord, extentions would be involved and that is be saved for other conversations after you grasp these basics.

I'm not grounded in enough theory to tell the difference between the good advice and the bad advice in this thread. I just know that the answers that preach learning the major scales speak to me. I like theory, and enjoy the academic exercise of recognizing modes. But I don't have much use for deciding what mode I plan to play, and in real time I wouldn't even be able to. Once I had someone tell me how Lydian I sounded with something I was noodling during a jam. I was like, "so what, just tell me whether you liked it or not."

Well, all I know is that I have played Johnny B. Goode in the key of A like a bazillion times, and it requires little theory to play. Simply slam cowboy chords of A, D, and E over and over...then during the solo, use the A minor pent box and drop in the B note and the F# note which I am pretty sure makes the A minor pent into the Dorian mode. You can also play the A major pent to add a little country sounding flair.

Whatever that is called, it works.

That's a simple 1,4,5, in C, but substituting C's relative minor for the tonic. That's why the A aeolian sounds good. A aeolian is the relative minor of C major.

Whah whah whah C whah whah whah whah A whah whah whah whah C major.

Well, all I know is that I have played Johnny B. Goode in the key of A like a bazillion times, and it requires little theory to play. Simply slam cowboy chords of A, D, and E over and over...then during the solo, use the A minor pent box and drop in the B note and the F# note which I am pretty sure makes the A minor pent into the Dorian mode. You can also play the A major pent to add a little country sounding flair.

Whatever that is called, it works.


Thaks for the chuckles, EMu. I have never heard that song done in the 'cowboy' chord style. Chuck Berry's rhythm work is usually a shuffle with the 1 and the 5 of a chord with the 6th and maybe the minor 7th added....

------------------------
------------------------
------------------------
------------------------
7-7---9-9---10-10---9-9
5-5---5-5---5---5---5-5

sort of that thing, right?

HE leaves the third out of the rhythm so that the leads can work with either the major or minor third.
I'll have to try that cowboy chord approach, right?
What would Roy do? (;^) I know that Trigger could dance, but did Dale boogie?
Funny about 'cowboy chords'......listen to those old cowboys and you are apt to hear some beautiful 'jazz' work going on. But I understand what you mean....I jsut don't think it works for Chuck Berry stuff.

I lied ... because I can't just leave a bleeding man to die.

1) Johnny B. Goode can not in good conscience be played with cowboy chords. If you don't at least attempt to do it as Wally illustrates above ... it's not 'the song'.

2) adding the B and F# in the case of this blues is not making it or adding Dorian notes. You're adding notes of the Major or Mixolydian scale. JBG is what we would call a 'major' blues though it really uses all dominant chords.

3) when the 'C' natural (the minor 3rd) sounds best in a major (dom 7th) blues is over the IV chord - and you can certainly play A minor penta or even A dorian but we're not in the key of A anymore - we're in D7 (which has the same notes as A dorian).

*Chuck Berry plays beautifully over the changes on JBG.
Every guitar player should learn the *exact* intro. It's an education!
Keith Richards famously says, "never trust a guitar player that can't play Chuck Berry".

Well, all I know is that I have played Johnny B. Goode in the key of A like a bazillion times, and it requires little theory to play. Simply slam cowboy chords of A, D, and E over and over...then during the solo, use the A minor pent box and drop in the B note and the F# note which I am pretty sure makes the A minor pent into the Dorian mode. You can also play the A major pent to add a little country sounding flair.

Whatever that is called, it works.

There's a B and an F# in the A major scale too. Playing an F# or a B while soloing in A using the Am pentatonic scale does not put you in A Dorian. You should be like Chuck and play it in Bb.:cool:

JB beat me to it!

There's a B and an F# in the A major scale too. Playing an F# or a B while soloing in A using the Am pentatonic scale does not put you in A Dorian. You should be like Chuck and play it in Bb.:cool:

because johnnie johnson said so!

I heard a very beginning guitar player talking the other day (I would have run, but it was in my own living room) and he talked about 'when he learns a song' so I invited him to play a song... whereupon, he played at a song....

it 'worked' for him... for me, not so much.

ring that bell boys!

You should be like Chuck and play it in Bb.:cool:

I agree. It really does make all the difference.

+1 to playing it in Bb.
Whether it was Chuck or Johnnie's idea to play a lot of those tunes in 'flat' keys - they have a distinctly different sound (timbre) when played in 'closed' keys on the guitar. It's just phatter!
I cringe playing those songs in A and E.

klasaine wrote: "Keith Richards famously says, "never trust a guitar player that can't play Chuck Berry". "

And I laugh every time I see Keith blow the intro to 'Oh, Carol' in that documentary on Chuck's music that was done back in the ?'80's??? Keith blows it, Chuck stops him..."no, no,,like this." and plays it for Keith. Keith blows it again, Chuck shows him how to do it again, KEith blows it again.....ROTHFLMAO!!!! Keith went all of those years not hearing that prebent double stop! KEith would hit that double stop and then bend it....Chuck cries; "NO! NO!"

I'm not grounded in enough theory to tell the difference between the good advice and the bad advice in this thread. I just know that the answers that preach learning the major scales speak to me. I like theory, and enjoy the academic exercise of recognizing modes. But I don't have much use for deciding what mode I plan to play, and in real time I wouldn't even be able to. Once I had someone tell me how Lydian I sounded with something I was noodling during a jam. I was like, "so what, just tell me whether you liked it or not."

Modes are just a way of organizing the notes in a theoretical manner. It can help you as guide to play music, but it is just a guide. The bottom line is what you can do with the given notes.

As my explaination regarding what to play over chords, it is subjective.

All three minor modes: Aeolian, Dorian and Phrygian sound different while they all contain the same Root, minor 3rd, 5th and b7th.

Both Major modes: Ionian and Lydian contain Root, major 3rd, 5th and major 7th.

While Mixolydian is: Root, major 3rd, 5th and b7th. This chord contains the tritone relationship between the 3rd and 7th tones.

All of them produce a color. Some like one color versus another. Some like them all, and some only like one or two of the modes.

Your choice!

klasaine wrote: "Keith Richards famously says, "never trust a guitar player that can't play Chuck Berry". "

And I laugh every time I see Keith blow the intro to 'Oh, Carol' in that documentary on Chuck's music that was done back in the ?'80's??? Keith blows it, Chuck stops him..."no, no,,like this." and plays it for Keith. Keith blows it again, Chuck shows him how to do it again, KEith blows it again.....ROTHFLMAO!!!! Keith went all of those years not hearing that prebent double stop! KEith would hit that double stop and then bend it....Chuck cries; "NO! NO!"
The best part of that was after Chuck taught him to do it the right way,
Chuck played that pre-bent slur when they played the song.

The best part of that was after Chuck taught him to do it the right way,
Chuck played that pre-bent slur when they played the song.

Well, considering that situation and KEith's comment that Klasaine quoted above, do you think it is possible that at some times in the past KEith couldn't even trust himself??? :shock::lol:

True enough (and that's a great part of that film) but Keef plays Chuck better than darn near anyone else and Chuck repeatedly F's up his own tunes ... sometimes as to be unrecognizable - mostly because he just doesn't give a crap.
Besides, you know what I mean. The intro riff/solo of Johnnie B. Goode is one the best lessons in rock blues you can get, hands down. It's the guitar riff of rock and roll.

:shock:

Have I upset the TDPRI gods of music theory by purposely playing minor scales over major chords?

Woe is me. Damn my soul. I hang my head in shame and beg for forgiveness.

I pray that no one finds out that I have ad-lib'd harmonic minor solos during country songs...and melodic minor solos during beebop...and (gulp) phrygian solos during polkas.

Woe is me. Damn my soul. I hang my head in shame and beg for forgiveness.

Well, you are the one who said
Everyone calls it 12 bar blues and usually solos in the dorian mode.

There are some of us who disagree with that assessment. This is the "Theory" forum, after all.

:shock:

Have I upset the TDPRI gods of music theory by purposely playing minor scales over major chords?

Woe is me. Damn my soul. I hang my head in shame and beg for forgiveness.

I pray that no one finds out that I have ad-lib'd harmonic minor solos during country songs...and melodic minor solos during beebop...and (gulp) phrygian solos during polkas.

Woe is me. Damn my soul. I hang my head in shame and beg for forgiveness.

Nothing wrong with it if sounds good.

Wait, Sweet Home Alabama is in D right?






:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

:shock:

Have I upset the TDPRI gods of music theory by purposely playing minor scales over major chords?

Woe is me. Damn my soul. I hang my head in shame and beg for forgiveness.

I pray that no one finds out that I have ad-lib'd harmonic minor solos during country songs...and melodic minor solos during beebop...and (gulp) phrygian solos during polkas.

Woe is me. Damn my soul. I hang my head in shame and beg for forgiveness.

Nah, don't take it personal.
Most of us had forgotten the OP 25 posts ago - lol!

You wanna play dorian, knock yourself out chief. As my kids favorite cartoon says (Peep), it's a big wide world ... there's room for any and all harmonic choices.

..

Determining key is fine...95% of the time the "last chord" rule works...Last chord of the tune is the key you're in, i.e. song ends on G major, tune's in G major.



Waaaay OT, but that finally settles it!

Sweet Home Alabama solo is in G because the chord progression is D-C-G-G :mrgreen:

Cheers,
Doug

klasaine wrote: "Keith Richards famously says, "never trust a guitar player that can't play Chuck Berry". "

And I laugh every time I see Keith blow the intro to 'Oh, Carol' in that documentary on Chuck's music that was done back in the ?'80's??? Keith blows it, Chuck stops him..."no, no,,like this." and plays it for Keith. Keith blows it again, Chuck shows him how to do it again, KEith blows it again.....ROTHFLMAO!!!! Keith went all of those years not hearing that prebent double stop! KEith would hit that double stop and then bend it....Chuck cries; "NO! NO!"

Worth a clip, I love Keith's "look" at 1.55:

5mD8q18-zcY

I heard a very beginning guitar player talking the other day (I would have run, but it was in my own living room) and he talked about 'when he learns a song' so I invited him to play a song... whereupon, he played at a song....

it 'worked' for him... for me, not so much.

ring that bell boys!

I don't understand any of this. ????????????

The best part of that was after Chuck taught him to do it the right way,
Chuck played that pre-bent slur when they played the song.

funny how we can see the same movie and see the same thing different ways...

When Chuck scolded Keith and did his whole teaching deal... to me, that had nothing to do with doing anything right.. that had to do with dominance and power and establishing territory and making sure everyone knew who was boss...

his insistence was the kind of insistence I've seen in band mates and guys who I've played for before where they seize on some minute point and hammer home what they want... not that they really want 'that thing' but that they want you to know they are in charge...

The great thing about Chuck Berry riffs is that they are moveable and adaptable... I know a guy who is learning 'butterscotch' by freddie king note for note...

I think that is kind of strange... but, some folks are completists... and exacting about things that are not necessarily exacting...

Emu, try not to get too hurt over any perceived criticism... you are getting feedback from some guys who really know their stuff and by being blithe about the topic, it can be perceived as trompling through the garden...

we are all probably resilient enough to accept some criticism.. especially when it is invited.

Here's three varying versions of CB doing Carol, two studio one live.
I'd give Keith a pass ...

VdqL8nbNbKg

VgEc0hzTH7I

And it's a little to hard to hear on the original ...

3PKW9683RzU

I don't understand any of this. ????????????

each of us defines what 'works' in our own way. Sometimes a person can have a broken down car in their yard and proclaim that it 'works' while the rest of us would think it was a disaster...

Playing Johnny B. Goode with cowboy chords may work for Emu, but for me, it would not work at all.

:shock:

Have I upset the TDPRI gods of music theory by purposely playing minor scales over major chords?

Woe is me. Damn my soul. I hang my head in shame and beg for forgiveness.

I pray that no one finds out that I have ad-lib'd harmonic minor solos during country songs...and melodic minor solos during beebop...and (gulp) phrygian solos during polkas.

Woe is me. Damn my soul. I hang my head in shame and beg for forgiveness.

@emu I appreciate your OP, and that you are willing to post it here and open yourself up for critique. I take your last comment here to have been tongue-in-cheek... I would bet your playing sounds pretty darn good, and if for no other reason because it is going to be slightly different than what someone else might play. So good for you.

The theory guys are gonna preach it though, and we should be glad for that. Even to the level of theory behind the technique of playing Chuck Berry. There's been a bunch of times I thought I had figured something out, then to have someone show me something and I get an "aha!" moment. It's not personal, it's just another chance at some education.

And you can always disclaim the JBG cowboy chords thing: "Sure I can play it the way he did it and in his key, but I play it this way on purpose - you don't have to like it. I call it JBG folk - style."

Frankly, I'd love to hear the harmonic minor stuff over a country tune. My brain says it wouldn't work. I'd like my ears to prove me wrong.

The thing to always remember is that it's music "theory." Not music LAW.

My favorite performance of Johnny B. Goode has to be Michael J. Fox at the Enchantment Under the Sea dance.

Now this tune is best served playing in A minor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV_toedW2L0
Huge difference between it and A major. First off, the lead in this song starts off in the F note - it's a veritable clinic on playing in A minor, then alternating between pentatonics.

Hear the difference? No way can the A,D & E of crossroads come off sounding like this.
However, I can give crossroads a more country feel by bouncing between scales Major and pentatonic (major and minor). Or, you could give it a straight country feel playing the changes. I really always play over at least the D chord when I play it. Claptons first solo in the original version, plays straight in the A blues scale (except one note is from the mixolydian) turning it over sound of the E chord (note). But his phrasing has a mixolydian note thrown in on the high E string. But the key of Am versus A Maj are totally different sounding and have different scales and chord components.

Waaaay OT, but that finally settles it!

Sweet Home Alabama solo is in G because the chord progression is D-C-G-G :mrgreen:

Cheers,
Doug

Doesn't everyone know that by now? Probably the most written about solo in Ed king's career, bar none. I remember before I learned the solo note for note in G when at a neighborhood jam about 30 years ago, I played it in D.
That was the first and only time I ever did such...........blaspehmed.

That's one of those quirky benchmark solos that couldve only come from one guyb i9n the world and it was who it was. Kind of like the breaks in Steely Dan's "My Old School" tune, which wasw a showcase for Skunk Baxter.

He plays right along with the horns.

Worth a clip, I love Keith's "look" at 1.55:

5mD8q18-zcY

I have mixed feelings about this. I can fully understand Keith Richards wanting to flatten Chuck.
I also think that Chuck has earned the right through being the force he is in Rock and Roll to want the song the way he wants.

I was watching All Things Must Pass last night and Paul McCartney talks about his "row" with George in Let it Be. He says, "It was my song, and I knew how I wanted to hear it. The same for John when we are doing his songs, or George with his songs. The writer is given control to tell others what parts they want or how they would like them changed."

From studying the first players in rock and roll, a lot of these players were black, and quite a few had grown up dealing with the ramifications of racism and thievery. They quite literally had to draw a line in the sand, and stick to their vision. In the film that this interchange comes from there is a very interesting scene with Chuck, Bo Diddley, and Little Richard. They are all talking about how they were basically ripped off like crazy at the beginning of their careers.
At one point Chuck talks about having someone on his writer credits that he had never met, and that person was taking a % of the profits. Turned out to be the guy who transcribed the song on paper.

IDK - Keith just didn't give a rip and lacked a little respect when he was in the grandfather of Rock's domain........what can ya say? I find it almost hard to believe Keef even wantde to play those signature parts. If I was him I wouldve stuck to rhythm and let Jonnie B Goode himself play the leads - just turned him up a lot more.

I guess it depends on who's song that was supposed to be, Chuck's or the Stones.
I don't see Mick around, so I'll say it's Chuck's as long as he's there. Whenever I wrote a tune in my band I always played the solos, unless I thought nthe other guy's was better, which was usually a consensus. It was rare though that it wasn't played by it's writer. I can really only remember one such tune, that I had my pal play the solos because he was a much better player than me for country at that time and the tune called for a country type sound. He actually didn't like playing the solos on it, because it wasn't his statement he'd say.

What's also funny is that in exactly none of those rendition of Carol does Chuck do that lick he's telling Keef to do until the first break, never on the intro. Keef just doesn't seem to want to do it like Chuck wants. Then Chuck is much more than tongue in cheek when he yells and looks at Keef while singing "don't let them steal it away". There's some heaviness there alright and bad blood that's more than just from that moment.

It's never fun when someone gets temperamental though and you can tell Keef is doin his best to stuff it, as is Chuck to certain extent. They could've come to blows. Just watching that makes me uncomfortable and brings back some of the rare bad moments of being in a band.

each of us defines what 'works' in our own way. Sometimes a person can have a broken down car in their yard and proclaim that it 'works' while the rest of us would think it was a disaster...

Playing Johnny B. Goode with cowboy chords may work for Emu, but for me, it would not work at all.

That concept I get.

What I don't follow is your post.

"a very beginning guitar player talking the other day. . . about 'when he learns a song' so I invited him to play a song... whereupon, he played at a song...."

This makes no sense to me. What is playing "at" a song? And what about his playing didn't work? What was wrong with the way he learned a song? What am I missing?

My favorite performance of Johnny B. Goode has to be Michael J. Fox at the Enchantment Under the Sea dance.

Fox?? That was actually Marty McFly, um, sorry - Calvin Klein.

My favorite is Ten Years after and Alvin Lee's lightening speed sweat fest version.

That concept I get.

What I don't follow is your post.

"a very beginning guitar player talking the other day. . . about 'when he learns a song' so I invited him to play a song... whereupon, he played at a song...."

This makes no sense to me. What is playing "at" a song? And what about his playing didn't work? What was wrong with the way he learned a song? What am I missing?

playing at a song is when people have part of the song... but, not the song itself... they play AT it rather than playing IT. I played with a country singer once and he didn't play the minor chord in 4 strong winds, he said it didn't need it... that is playing AT a song...

the beginner's idea of 'learning' a song is to have part of the riff and a couple of the chords right and then once you say "oh, hold on loosely" when he has the first part of the first riff.. he stops and claims he 'knows the song'....

I must not be writing very clearly or you have never encountered this kind of guitar player... I have on many occasions... guys who play AT guitar rather than doing the work of really playing it...

sorry to be confusing you!:oops:

playing at a song is when people have part of the song... but, not the song itself... they play AT it rather than playing IT. I played with a country singer once and he didn't play the minor chord in 4 strong winds, he said it didn't need it... that is playing AT a song...

the beginner's idea of 'learning' a song is to have part of the riff and a couple of the chords right and then once you say "oh, hold on loosely" when he has the first part of the first riff.. he stops and claims he 'knows the song'....

I must not be writing very clearly or you have never encountered this kind of guitar player... I have on many occasions... guys who play AT guitar rather than doing the work of really playing it...

sorry to be confusing you!:oops:

I've encountered that guy because I was him as a teenager. I would buy the Hendrix tab books and cop all the main riffs, fills, even a bunch of the solos. But my interest and ability to play whole songs was lacking...even though I was great at 'jamming' :roll:

Took me joining a band with a bunch of friends who were way less 'skilled' players than I was to really get that I was going about it all wrong.

I can't even count how many songs I played wrong in my early days before either my chops or my ears were strong enough to rely on. Singing can cover up alot of ineptitude if you're good enough though-lol! I relied way too heavily on my vocal ability in my early playing days. I really started learning how to play after my band days ended-lol!

Too bad-now the voice is shot, wouldn't ya know......

playing at a song is when people have part of the song... but, not the song itself... they play AT it rather than playing IT. I played with a country singer once and he didn't play the minor chord in 4 strong winds, he said it didn't need it... that is playing AT a song...

the beginner's idea of 'learning' a song is to have part of the riff and a couple of the chords right and then once you say "oh, hold on loosely" when he has the first part of the first riff.. he stops and claims he 'knows the song'....

I must not be writing very clearly or you have never encountered this kind of guitar player... I have on many occasions... guys who play AT guitar rather than doing the work of really playing it...

sorry to be confusing you!:oops:

Ah... OK, got it. We all know that guy. Just new to that terminology. Must be a west coast thing?

funny how we can see the same movie and see the same thing different ways...

When Chuck scolded Keith and did his whole teaching deal... to me, that had nothing to do with doing anything right.. that had to do with dominance and power and establishing territory and making sure everyone knew who was boss...

his insistence was the kind of insistence I've seen in band mates and guys who I've played for before where they seize on some minute point and hammer home what they want... not that they really want 'that thing' but that they want you to know they are in charge...

.

Totally agree...you see this in every walk of life, occupation etc.

All I know is I'm so glad I learned the fundamentals when I was a kid. I don't understand how people can function without knowing the basics.

I love you guys!

A year or so ago, I'd have understood nothing in this thread. Now I understand more than half of it, though I can't play everything I can understand. Summer's almost here, and that should mean progress. Maybe I'll try to learn that JBG intro note for note, and work on understanding all of this thread!

Learning music is like carving a statue: you chip away a bit at a time, and if you work at it long enough, the result will be beautiful (unless you accidentally cut off its nose.)

Wow, you *can* play Johnny B. Goode with cowboy chords.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOQh8haCQgc