Three-saddle bridge intonation SECRETS.

Just stumbled across this

="http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/choosing-installing/tech-tips/saddle_up_your/"

Apologies if this has been posted before but anyone with a vintage bridge NEEDS to read this.

Just stumbled across this

="http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/choosing-installing/tech-tips/saddle_up_your/"

Apologies if this has been posted before but anyone with a vintage bridge NEEDS to read this.

You link needs fixing so http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/choosing-installing/tech-tips/saddle_up_your/ and yes it has been posted a few times here :wink:

Whoops, n00b mistake. Even so.. I always assumed that vintage bridges were incapable of 'proper' intonation and were just a quirky feature until I read this.

ya just takes time to get the hang of setting them up. This needs to be posted every now and then anyway so no worries.

It's been seen several times, but since we still get threads almost daily about players not being able to intonate a Vintage 3 barrell bridge correctly, and lots of guys who think it can't be done at all, then it doesn't hurt for it to pop up now and then.

That's how I do mine and I never have problems with intonation.
I once got a tele with compensated teles on it and couldn't yank them off fast enough.

we still get threads almost daily about players not being able to intonate a Vintage 3 barrell bridge correctly.

I'm surprised there isn't a 'definitive' telecaster setup sticky here. Or at least a sticky with all the best links etc.

You might find after following that procedure - which I feel is common sense anyways as it's averaging things out:

Chords in certain places still sound a bit "sour". May depend on your instrument and style.

For instance I always set intonation sightly flat on my bottom E and A since I hit them pretty hard and drive them sharp.

For instance I always set intonation sightly flat on my bottom E and A since I hit them pretty hard and drive them sharp.

Same here, especially when you throw a 3mm jazz pick into the equation. Not that I do that anymore but I often broke them in half playing too hard. The silly things you do when you're young.

I honestly can't see how you can intonate a Tele with the compensated barrels. Mine are all so close with stock barrels, if I had compensated barrels, they have to be way off. My CV is dead on with the stock barrels, except for a couple cents sharp on the B string at the 12th. I could twist that barrel a bit, but honestly, it wouldn't matter much IMHO. My '52 is the same, just a few cents sharp on the B string at the 12th, and the rest virtually perfect.

By the time you grab chords, bend and apply vibrato, they all go a bit off anyway.

I had no issues getting mine close enough no one would ever notice.. Seriously you guys should worry less and play more...

The only real secret is that your the only one who knows,or even cares .

I had no issues getting mine close enough no one would ever notice.. Seriously you guys should worry less and play more...

+1

BTW, I've found that the Joe Barden vintage compensated 3-barrel intonates within a couple of cents on all six strings.

Whoops, n00b mistake. Even so.. I always assumed that vintage bridges were incapable of 'proper' intonation and were just a quirky feature until I read this.

For years, I stayed away from telecasters with 3 barrel bridges. "What was Leo thinking?" I used to say. "There's no way to intonate them" I declared. Then Fender finally got wise and put 6 saddle bridges on them. "About time" I cried. Except one thing, I didn't like the guitars. Bought and traded several, all types, US, Mexican, etc. They just didn't sound right to me. Confused, I wrongly assumed teles just were not for me.

Then, in the early part of this century, I happened upon a MIJ tele with a neck that just grabbed me by the short hairs and said "play me." I had no choice but to oblige.

I exchanged some labor with a guitar store owner who set up the saddles, much in the manner described in the link, and the light shone on me. Now I won't even look at teles with 6 saddle bridges anymore. It just doesn't sound right any other way. A tele is a 3 barrel bridge, the way Leo meant it to be.

YMMV. IMNSHO. etc etc etc:grin:

I have one Tele with a three saddle bridge, and I have had no problems getting it intonated. I will admit that it is not perfectly intonated, but once i got the rest of the setup where I wanted it (relief, action, pickup height, etc.), it intonated very well. It's an allparts bridge with compensated plain round brass saddles, not expensive. Am I doing something wrong?:mrgreen:

I just built a tele kit with the 3 saddle bridge and got the tuning just right, was really surprised as this is my first Tele. Other people say it sounds good too, which means a lot.

You might find after following that procedure - which I feel is common sense anyways as it's averaging things out:

Chords in certain places still sound a bit "sour". May depend on your instrument and style.

For instance I always set intonation sightly flat on my bottom E and A since I hit them pretty hard and drive them sharp.

Same here, but you always have to take your playing style into consideration when making any kind of adjustment.

I had no issues getting mine close enough no one would ever notice.. Seriously you guys should worry less and play more...

I bet you've been playing a Tele for a while.

What I see happen is, guys make subtle adjustments as they play to cure up notes that would otherwise be sharp or flat a bit. And/or they instinctively avoid playing passages in a part of the fretboard where out of tune notes would sound out; they work around chords and note sequences that naturally sound sour.

They've gotten so adept at it, they don't even recognize what they're doing.

I am starting to feel like, these Joe Barden saddles are too slanted to work for the majority of guys. They're "too compensated" and they would throw a wrench in what the seasoned players have been doing for too long to be trying to change, I suspect, at least in some cases.

I've got the vintage style threaded steel saddles on my Tele, (my first) and I have no idea what the big deal is with intonation. I run 11's with a wound G, which I understand is closer to what people used at the time of the Tele's development, so that may help. I'm pretty much dead on, according to my Strobostomp.

Heck, I want the ashtray more than anything. I play a lot of fingerstyle, and there's no more convenient handle for adjusting the guitar in your lap or over your shoulder than the bottom lip of that sucker. I think it's really what does it for me.

I like the way three-barrels adjust, and because I'm one of those dips that likes neck vibrato I'm more or less tanking my intonation all the time anyway. And perhaps most importantly, they appeal to me cosmetically. I don't really give a crap if the intonation is a few cents off here and there if the look of the thing makes me want to pick it up more often when I walk by it.

I bet you've been playing a Tele for a while.

What I see happen is, guys make subtle adjustments as they play to cure up notes that would otherwise be sharp or flat a bit. And/or they instinctively avoid playing passages in a part of the fretboard where out of tune notes would sound out; they work around chords and note sequences that naturally sound sour.

They've gotten so adept at it, they don't even recognize what they're doing.

I am starting to feel like, these Joe Barden saddles are too slanted to work for the majority of guys. They're "too compensated" and they would throw a wrench in what the seasoned players have been doing for too long to be trying to change, I suspect, at least in some cases.

Very good point. I try not to analyse my playing too much - but I've been playing my Tokai with the same threaded saddles for nearly 30 years, they rusted up long ago so I hadn't been able to set the intonation for years... Didn't matter I guess like you say I was compensating myself.

Well, I finally broke one of the saddles trying to adjust the height, just broke in two, rusty as hell, so I thought I'd try the wilkinson compensated saddles everyone keeps raving about... I really like the sound of the brass saddles, much nicer, but I can't say I've noticed the intonation being noticeably better - or worse - I tend to try and get it near with a tuner then get bored and just end up doing it by ear... As long as its near, eh?... I dunno, so many things you do when your playing effect everything else...

intonation with a 3 saddle bridge will never ever be spot on, but who cares?

Just stumbled across this

="http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/choosing-installing/tech-tips/saddle_up_your/"

Apologies if this has been posted before but anyone with a vintage bridge NEEDS to read this.

Well a guitar can never ever be in tune at every point on the neck why not use the best alternative - now some companies are making guitars having frets that are literally crooked to make every point on the neck in tune .. Try equal temperament tuning if you have never heard of it.. Its a trade off much as Jerrys tuning is they all are do to the physics of stringed instruments the piano is the same way... It is never really in tune... This was set in stone back in the 1600's that all stringed instruments would always be out of tune its just again physics


For those of you that do not have the equal temperament instructions here they are I am not saying this is the answer as their is not one accept as I said to actually make every fret crooked across the neck...



Equal Temperament tuning...


Tune the Open E and e strings so that they are in perfect unison. The open high e string should be in unison with the harmonic at the 12th fret of the low E.
Tune the E note on the 2nd fret of the D (4th) string to the harmonic at the 12th of the E (6th) string.
Tune the D note played on the 3rd fret of the B (2nd string) against the harmonic on the 12th fret of the D (4) string.
Tune the D note played at the 7th fret of the G (3rd) string against the harmonic on the 12th fret of the D (4) string.
Check the harmonic at the 12th fret of the G (3rd) string against the G note played at the 3rd fret of the high e String. If this is not in tune, something has gone awry in a previous step.
Tune the harmonic at the 12th fret of the A (5th) string against the A note played on the 2nd fret of the G (3rd) string.

The real secret is to get compensated saddles. I'll never have another Tele without my Glendale upgrades. JMHO

The real secret is to get compensated saddles. I'll never have another Tele without my Glendale upgrades. JMHO

Compensated saddles or not the guitar is never in tune in every location on the neck hahahahah

I had no issues getting mine close enough no one would ever notice.. Seriously you guys should worry less and play more...

I've been taking that attitude since I picked up a Telemaster with 3 brass barrels just after Christmas. I've been playing it for the last 5 months, and it sounded just fine to me. Then I packed it up the other day to drop off for a set-up, and got out my G&L, which I've been playing for 2-3 days now. Damn. I guess I forgot how sweet accurate intonation can be. Now I'm considering holding the Telemaster until I can get a set of compensated saddles in it before I have it fret dressed and set.

P

Acquired another tele today on trade for a amp I wanted to move... it has 3 steel barrels... The previous owner hated them.. Within about 30 minutes.. I am pretty damn close to perfect.. I can register perfectly open, at the 12th and 12th harmonic on almost all strings, the B and G are off by a hair, just a smidgen.. I can tell but no one else who hears me play can.. I may try a 6 saddle bridge down the road, I just haven't had enough problems yet to spend the money...

as far as compensated saddles, these are about as easy as it gets
http://www.cmautos.co.uk/bridge3.jpg
Got them on my other tele.. love'm

The real secret is to get compensated saddles. I'll never have another Tele without my Glendale upgrades. JMHO

I like my Glendale saddles just fine. Excellent intonation IMO with 10's and a plain 3rd.

Next build, though, will be Fender threaded steel. If splitting the difference doesn't get me close enough, I'll try the Gene Warner method and bend the intonation screws to angle the saddles.

Chords in certain places still sound a bit "sour".

That's character...good for rock, blues and c&w...

That's character...good for rock, blues and c&w...

Yes, as the above article says - a 100% perfectly intonated guitar would sound bad.

I'll bite: I can get three compensated saddles pretty darn close, but I still have to cheat them slightly by tilting them on their shafts (not bending the shafts, there's enough wiggle on the shafts to get sufficient tilt.) I do this with the strings up to full pitch, using a wooden dowel as a drift. I'll knock one end of a saddle back towards the bridge, say 1/32", which then moves the other end away from the bridge the same amount, so then you have to adjust the length screw for that saddle to get both ends where they should be. As you can imagine, this is a cat-n-mouse game requiring some thought and retries, but it's easier to do than to describe.

Having said all that, intonating with three saddles is waaaay too much work, and is never going to be as well tuned (nor as stable) as six carefully adjusted saddles. If you're only ever spanking and bending away playing loud blues/rock/grunge etc. that's one thing. But try playing more thoughtful harmonic progressions, altered chords with dynamics, alongside a keyboard or other well-tuned guitars and tell me "close enough" is good enough. Why handicap yourself?

I can hear the chorus answering: "Because only three traditional saddles produce the proper Tele tone!"

Baloney. I'd like to meet the expert who can tell the difference by ear alone in a blindfold test.

Now, if you just like the way the three saddles look, there's no arguing with that!

Brian

^ Most respectable Tele players with any experience would be able to tell the difference if you swapped their 3 classic saddles with 6 "modern" saddles.

All that matters is how it sounds and feels to the player.

Compensated saddles or not the guitar is never in tune in every location on the neck hahahahah

+100000

Find any yourself any such "respectable" player, and ask them how much money they'll wager on a blindfold test. I made my living with my ears as a professional from age 14 to 33. But now as an engineer for some 25 years with degrees in both Math and Music, I feel I may have some small understanding of the physics of music as well, and I say the whole notion that three saddles sound better than six is laughable, and it would be easy to prove I'm right (once the otherwise identical guitars are prepared.)

"Money talks, ... " :wink:

right on, brian!

Compensated saddles or not the guitar is never in tune in every location on the neck hahahahah

Pretty close to it, man... I'm telling you.
Direct quote from Dale : "My goal is perfect intonation (within .1 Hz) on all six strings".

"Once you do acid, man, you realize there's no such thing as 'in tune.'"

Arlo Guthrie

I guess playing in tune never sounded so wrong.

Technique matters (playing hard and pulling sharp) but string gage matters too. I use 0.011"-0.050" and it sounds like crap without compensation, especially low E.

I've never heard of anyone 'de-compensating' a Strat and loving it. If it were so right, why didn't Leo use three saddles on the Strat?

In the end, a Tele has it's own sound, and I love it for what it is.

I feel stupid but I don't follow Jerry's method about tuning the G string to A440 at the 12th fret. What am I missing?

I believe he is adjusting the D string saddle so that the 12th fretted note is a little bit flatter than the 12th fret harmonic. Then he tunes the open G string just a crumb flat so that it reads 440 on the tuner on the 12th fretted note. I just call it 440. I don't know where the A comes from unless it has something to do with a piano keyboard.

Bob,

Then imagine how stupid I feel that my "search on this page" does not find the so-called "Jerry's method" you asked about. Did I miss a post by "Jerry" or a link to something other than Seymour Duncan's site? I'd love to opine about this mystery method.

Brian

A440 is the universal tuning frequency. Something to do with the vibration of an A, I guess. The universal tuning is known as A440 because the vibration of the A note is taken as a reference. Don't quote me on the details, and I'm sure others will explain this more proficiently than I can.
There : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A440_%28pitch_standard%29

"A440 is the musical note A above middle C. It has a frequency of 440 Hz and serves as a general tuning standard for musical pitch.

Prior to the standardization on 440 Hz, many countries and organizations followed the Austrian government's 1885 recommendation of 435 Hz. The American music industry reached an informal standard of 440 Hz in 1926, and some began using it in instrument manufacturing. In 1936 the American Standards Association recommended that the A above middle C be tuned to 440 Hz.[1] This standard was taken up by the International Organization for Standardization in 1955 (reaffirmed by them in 1975) as ISO 16.[2] Although still not universally accepted, since then it has served as the audio frequency reference for the calibration of acoustic equipment and the tuning of pianos, violins, and other musical instruments.

In the period instrument movement, a consensus has arisen around a modern "baroque pitch" for strings (Kammerton) of 415 Hz, baroque for wind instruments and church voices (Chorton) at 466 Hz and "classical pitch" at 430 Hz.[citation needed]

A440 is sometimes referred to as Concert A. (The C above Concert A is called Concert C.)"

Yes 440Hz is the standard for A in the US. I don't understand Jerry's instructions to tune the G string at the 12th fret to 440. Something is missing there.

Yes 440Hz is the standard for A in the US. I don't understand Jerry's instructions to tune the G string at the 12th fret to 440. Something is missing there.

A440 is the reference tuning. You can set your tuner to 439, 438, etc. but 440 is universally the tuning. Once you calibrate your tuner to 440, it is considered 440 no matter what string you tune. I think that's what he meant. JMHO

I think he's saying that, if you tune the G a little flat when you fret any notes they will be in tune with the rest?

Regardless of the guitar...I have never been happy with my intonation when I used a tuner. I always end up doing it by ear....this may help to explain why, even to me.

You can Tune a Piano, but You Can't Tuna Fish -REO Speedwagon

Where are these mythical instructions by "Jerry"?

Brian

The link is in the first reply to the OP.

Thanks, Bob.

Jerry Donahue's method would probably work only for him, with his playing style, and his particular guitar. I'm guessing anyone on this forum who has tried his "trick" has finished up scratching their head and reverting to a conventional approach. And it is a workaround for the (as Jerry admits) inherently flawed three-saddle design.

And in Jerry's essay, he makes a huge mistake here:

"A piano tuner may use an electronic tuner as a point of reference. But if he tuned the entire keyboard to be 'perfect', it would sound awful. The bottom keys actually must be tuned sharp and the high ones tuned flat. This is the only way the human brain will perceive the piano to be in tune."

Jerry got that just exactly wrong. Pianos must receive "stretch tuning" in which the low notes are flatter and the high notes sharper than predicted by pure equal temperament. Here it is explained in an essay written for the journal American Luthiery journal by luthier Mike Doolin:

"The greater inharmonicity in pianos creates a strange problem with their tuning. If a piano is simply tuned to Equal Temperament across its range, the clash between the markedly sharp overtones of the low strings and the fundamentals of the high strings make the instrument sound out of tune with itself! The solution: 'stretch tuning', wherein the high and low registers of the piano are tuned higher and lower, respectively, to bring the low strings' harmonics into tune with the upper strings' fundamentals. Thus, the piano is intentionally tuned out of Equal Temperament, in order to sound in tune with itself."

Here is Mike's entire five-part essay on Intonation:

http://www.doolinguitars.com/intonation/intonation1.html

Brian

Thanks, Bob.

Jerry Douglas' method would probably work only for him, with his playing style, and his particular guitar.
Brian

How the heck did a Dobro player get involved in this mess?

"Jerry Donahue's ... "

The rest: What I said.

Just my two cents, because I haven't posted in ages.
I can turn great intonation into so-so intonation as soon as I start doing chords in 7th-fret area on up. For this reason I like my strings low and very little back-bow on a neck- higher strings means I either consciously or sub-consciously put more pressure on the strings, and that always makes them sharp.
I have two Teles, one with stock brass 3's (on my 52RI) and one with a Gotoh modern bridge with 6's from stewmac. I've found someway, somehow, those 3's are intonated just about perfect, using my old Sabine tuner at least. That said, hitting one string at a time and thorough checking may be great, but at least with me I have different pressure on each string while doing chords. That means I sharpen some and flatten or maybe even mute, others. For both barre and standard 'Rock n' Roll' style. I probably push and pull a string every-which-way, so an A isn't gonna be an A no matter how careful I am to get it PERFECT. That's not the kinda music I'd like to either play or listen to anyway. I don't do jazz much, so that kinda subtle dissonance is alright for the dirty R n R/Blues I do usually. If there's even a tiny bit of distortion who can hear it unless it's way outta tune?

I have mentioned this elsewhere but /raising/ the saddle has similar effect to shortening its length.

This works to compensate non-compensated 3-saddle tele bridges.
I guess it would work on compensated saddles too but you don't need them.
I use grooved brass saddles of which I have never seen a compensated version.

This means you can set the longest string to where you want it (slightly sharp G if using the OP link method), and then making the shortest string come to pitch (slightly flat D ...). On a Peterson a 1Hz offset means the lines are just scrolling slowly, up for sharp etc. The height change is slight and is barely noticeable if you have done a good setup and have the action set low.

Mind you, you should never set intonation length only on the 12th fret but use, say, 15 and 17 and 10 too. The idea is to get the middle part of the neck where it is played most in tune. The very top-end of the neck can be allowed to be a smidgen flat because you can easily squeeze these notes up, if doing so brings the middle part of the neck in.

Of possible interest, I was working on a 24-fret bass neck and finding that if I got the second octave in then the first octave was out. Now a bass is rarely played right up the top so I figured it would be best to have the main part of the neck on pitch ...
As it happens I found that by re-doing the setup I was able to lower the action even more without buzz and got both octaves in (P-type 4-saddle bridge).

I had no issues getting mine close enough no one would ever notice.. Seriously you guys should worry less and play more...

+1

If I can get my American special with a 69 Thinline reissue neck tuned the first try, anyone can. It is my favorite guitar with CTS pots an Oak & Grigsby 4 way and a Russian Teflon fast cap with my Twin Reverb and a tube distortion plus a bad assed Octave changing Fuzz I can blow the old lady's plates out of her cupboard net door. My big trick in getting the guitar in tune is NOT using cheap strings!!!!! It's Cleartones or it's naked! Only thing wrong with it is the jack is loose, I won't forget to tighten it up on the next guitar I put together.