1957 5e3 fender deluxe

hi i have a1957 fender 5e3 deluxe that i have been trying to bring back to life. when i found it it was hurtin for certin. i cleaned up the chassis and replaced some wiring, and recovered the cabinet. after getting the chassis done i bench tested it with just the speaker hooked up, and it played great nice and quiet after i got the ground plug changed and redid some ground connections. so i put everything back in the cabinet and plugged my guitar in to test and all the tubes were lit and the pilot light was lit but had no sound what so ever. turned it off let the capacitors drain and looked it over cant find any connection or anything that is obvious. turned it back on now the pilot light lites and the one rectifier tube lites and thats it. so i now replace the 500v capacitors because they are like 50+ years old, and that didnt change anything, so now i am thinking something happened to the power transformer. if anyone has expierience on these please let me know i would be greatful thanks mark. there are pictures of it on the amp forum

Do you have any experience working with a live amp and a multi-meter? It's dangerous and we want to make sure, before you go in there, you understand were to put your hands and when. Let's get that out of the way before we start with tips on what to check. ;-)

Assuming the above is ok.

Take the tubes out. With the amp off measure the resistance across the heater pins of the tube sockets. Measure them to ground. Measure the resistance across the rectifier tube plates, across the 6V6 plates and to ground.

Change meter to AC volts. Turn the amp on and measure the voltage across the tube heater sockets and to ground. Measure (carefully) from one of the rectifier plates to ground then the other.

Anything look wrong?

i do alot of guitar work but i know these tube amps have potential to kil you i wear rubber gloves and also will be discharging the capacitors while working on it. as far as working with it plugged i know i can not toch anything and ground myself ot on the chassis. but no iam not a amp tech by no means. and you would have to tell me what to set the meter on for resistance and what pins are the heater pins and what ones are the 6v6 plates terminology i am not up on i do know the rectifier tube socket and the 6v6 tube sockets but when you say rectifier plates and 6v6 plates i am confused sorry mark

http://www.geofex.com/ampdbug/ampdebug.htm

thanks for the information it may help mark

Hate to say it, but if you do not know your way around a meter or what the tubes or their parts do it might be a better idea if you get a tech to look at the amp considering its value.

thanks for your help but i like to do things on my own and learn so i will continue on my own. i will get it sooner or later and learn as i go thanks mark

Listen to these guys- these amps can literally kill you.

i can tell you this i measured the ohms resistance on the black primary wire one end goes to the fuse and one end to the power switch and the meter goes right back to 0 meaning dead short and each end to the chassis reads nothing. if i am correct the transformer should be bad. would i be correct in saying that at this point. thanks mark

thanks for your help but i like to do things on my own and learn so i will continue on my own. i will get it sooner or later and learn as i go thanks mark

Mark,

I know the feeling of wanting to learn stuff. Started doing all this myself just recently. The folks here have an almost religious reverance for a REAL 5E3, and might even be a tad jealous of your 'training ground.' (c'mon guys, admit it! :wink:) Me, too! We are also very concerned for you. But I do see that you are taking precautions. Please don't end this thread by saying, "I'll be pulling all the capacitors now..." and disappear!!

I am building my second amp, and made a layout that includes a few of the things you might find helpful. I have also started a thread that may someday help folks like you and me. 5E3 SUPER Layout (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/shock-brothers-diy-amps/329230-5e3-super-layout.html)

With credit to Weber (and apologies for my additions) here's my 'cut and paste' layout, hope it helps.

charisjapan

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7226/7325670412_6cabc36a90_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/charisjapan/7325670412/)

i can tell you this i measured the ohms resistance on the black primary wire one end goes to the fuse and one end to the power switch and the meter goes right back to 0 meaning dead short and each end to the chassis reads nothing. if i am correct the transformer should be bad. would i be correct in saying that at this point. thanks mark

This isn't a given yet. What kind of meter did you use (digital, autoranging, needle) and where did you have it set if the meter was not of the autoranging type? The primary and secondary sides of a transformer are each a big coil of wire that allows the electrical current to flow through it and if I recall correctly the primary side resistance will be very low like maybe 1.5-3 ohms. If your meter was set too high or isn't accurate (or zeroed out like the old needle variety needed to be) you may not be able to measure low enough to see that there is some resistance.

Also, you had at least enough voltage going through it to light your 5V secondary for the rectifier and the 6.3V secondary for the power/preamp tube heaters though I would assume that with a partially shorted primary you still may transfer some voltage across and you haven't measured your filaments to determine if the secondary voltage is correct. At some point it seems like you lost the ground connection to your tube heaters because your pilot lamp is still lit, but your tubes (other than the rectifier) no longer lit up. These feed from the pilot lamp, though on an original tweed amp Fender wired the grounds differently than they did in later years. A newer schematic/chassis layout for clones usually shows modern grounding/wiring for the tubes than the original Fender 5E3 layout/schematic will show...and a lot of times the heaters aren't actually shown.

You need to determine if your meter is set correctly and if it can measure very low resistance levels and also check the ground connections that Printer mentioned. Ultimately you should test the transformer voltages plugged in, but it doesn't sound like you're ready to do that yet without understanding things a lot better.

Also, even though this wouldn't be directly related to your problem now, check that the amp has the correct fuse in it. Its the first thing to do when buying something old. If the amp had a problem and the fuse was replaced with something bigger (or wrapped in foil) it may allow the amp to work and eventually kill a power transformer. Did you notice whether the PT was overly hot when it originally was working?

The folks here have an almost religious reverance for a REAL 5E3, and might even be a tad jealous of your 'training ground.' (c'mon guys, admit it! :wink:)

Not really. Just that a mistake can damage the transformers resulting in an amp that is worth considerably less for the owner. It would be sad to see the value reduced hundreds of dollars trying to save a few bucks.

I gave instructions that should have been enough to start the troubleshooting process for a person with enough knowledge to poke around in an amp. The response did not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling. What will the measurements mean if you do not know what a plate is and where it is located? Lots of basic information on tubes out there, almost a prerequisite to troubleshooting an amp.

first of all i would like to appoligize to anyone who took my reply the wrong way, im not mad at anyone i understand this is critical and dangerous. i just need someone to be a little more in depth of what to set meter at and what pins to check. i have always been on my own and anything i get i have to work for . not alot of money to always pay someone to do my work, and i love to learn. so i meant nothing by anything i said i appreciate any of the help that you guys give me. i understand if you dont feel comfortable giving certain information. but it would be helpful if someone could tell me what to set my meter at for checking ohms resistance. my meter is a best digital not a real expensive one the settings are 200 2k 20k 200k 2m 20m 200m checking the black primaries on the power trans i had it set on 200 dont know if that was correct or not but i know the readings are suppossed to be real low. just hoping someone will have some time to coach me through thats all but i understand the flusuration trying to help someone with very little knowlege thanks very much mark

To help you start out without dangerous voltages present (and I believe you mentioned that the caps were drained) the 200 ohm setting would be the first to try, and if that maxed out you could try bumping to the 2k setting. I do believe that 200 ohm should work assuming the meter is accurate enough to measure a couple of ohms. Also, make sure to zero it out if it allows that function. These usually have an adjustment dial where you touch the two leads together and adjust it to read zero.

Since you probably tested the primaries "in circuit" (meaning still soldered to the fuse holder and switch) go back and try again with the power switch turned off. If it was in the on position the reading most likely took the path of least resistance and may have read through the switch instead of the transformer. With the switch off the small current from the meter can't go that direction and has to go through the primary of the transformer. Start there and are if you get any reading. As I mentioned earlier you did have power to the lamp and the rectifier heater wires so you are at least getting some voltage through to the secondaries. You would have to test the actual voltages with the amp live to determine if you are getting the correct amount. The B+ (high voltage out of the rectifier) would also tell whether the PT is putting out the correct voltage. That's dangerous is you aren't careful so you do need to read up on it. I'm not at home and don't have any links handy.

Its hard to say why you didn't have sound after initially installing the chassis back into the cabinet because you say you had tubes lit up. Once the power/preamp tubes stopped lighting while the pilot lamp was lit is an indication that something came loose in you're heater circuit. I think those are pins 4,5, and 9 on the preamp tubes going from memory and that is where the original Fender Deluxe is wired differently to ground from later versions and clones. Look at some original Deluxe 5E3 schematics (again, I don't have a link handy) and look for the wiring going to those pins and try to follow it inside your amp (unplugged and drained right now. Sometimes they don't show the heaters on the schematics so you may have to try to determine ground markings and relate them to a clone schematic or layout.

I just tested a power transformer that I have here for a project and the primaries read between 1.3 and 1.5 ohms depending on how good I can hold the multimeter's leads to the wires. That's almost zero resistance so there is a chance that you're meter can't read that close to zero even on the 200 ohm setting...even if the power switch is in the off position and you're reading through the primaries and not the switch and fuse which I would also expect to show a little resistance.

The following link is the schematic for an original Fender Deluxe 5E3 circuit. If you go to page 2 of the PDF it will show the heater filament wiring for you power and preamp tubes. There is a green wire from the PT to the pilot lamp and another green wire from the PT to a chassis ground or one of the mounting bolts of the transformer where a yellow and red striped wire will also terminate. Those two green wires are what light up your pilot lamp, and then follow the green wire to the power tubes (pin 7) and see how it piggybacks to the preamp tube pins 4 and 5. If none of those tubes lit up and the pilot lamp worked you probably have a bad solder joint at one end of the wire between the lamp socket and pin 7 of the first power tube. Test for continuity by putting one end of the meter on the soldered tab of the pilot lamp and the other end on the tube socket tab. You can check the wire itself, to make sure you get almost zero resistance from each end of the wire (tells you the wire isn't broken), but also try from tab to tab to make sure that the solder joints are good and making contact through the tabs and wire. You may need a second set of hands to wiggle the wire to see if that makes the reading come and go indicating an intermittent solder contact.

This won't explain why you had no sound when you first reinstalled the chassis, but it will get you a step closer to finding out why the tubes stopped lighting up and whether or not you may have some other bad solder joints to look for.

Also, you will notice on the layout that Charisjapan posted the newer amps and clones use a different version of wiring the heater filaments where both the green wires go to the pilot lamp and piggyback across the tube heater pins. Those connections aren't shown but are labelled FIL on the correct tube pins. If your amp is still original it will have pins 2 on the power tubes and pins 9 on the preamp tubes soldered to a chassis ground instead of having the second green wire to and from the pilot lamp. Hope this helps a bit.

http://web.archive.org/web/20061230203424/http://schematicheaven.com/fenderamps/deluxe_5e3_schem.pdf

You mentioned in your first post that you re-did some ground connections and cleaned up some wiring and the amp worked, then quit after reinstalling the chassis. Those would be the first place to start testing for good connections from the wires you resoldered to ground. It's usually the last thing that a person touched that is the most likely thing to have broken. Another thing to check, although you had the no sound problem first, is that Fender sometimes used the long leads of the electrolytic capacitors and ran them through the tag board eyelets and soldered that lead to ground or ran a bare ground wire from the soldered ground and through the eyelet from underneath. If you replaced capacitors or fixed other ground connections to these eyelets the ground wire may have fallen out from under the eyelet and you can't see that it happened. Check all the grounds you soldered for continuity to the lead of the component that they connect to.

i just need someone to be a little more in depth of what to set meter at and what pins to check.

but it would be helpful if someone could tell me what to set my meter at for checking ohms resistance. my meter is a best digital not a real expensive one the settings are 200 2k 20k 200k 2m 20m 200m

And my point was with all the search capabilities of the internet if you needed the pin numbers or an explanation of what a plate is the information is available in a heartbeat. It is one thing wanting to learn it is another thing when you do not try to enlighten yourself. Google is your friend.

Knowing to change the range of a meter is the most basic of electrical troubleshooting. If someone has trouble determining how to use a meter it is concerning giving instructions on troubleshooting. A direction to test for one thing or the other can go horribly wrong if the one giving suggestions and the one taking them are not talking the same language.

As you can see from milocj's posts it can take a lot of explaining to get you going in the right direction. I am hoping he can type not the one finger chicken peck that is used to write my posts. I commend him on it, I do not have the patience.

i want to thank everyone that has tried to help me on this amp, and also a special thanks to milocj for trying to stay with me through this not many people would and i comend you for this. anyone who has replied to my post i am greatful to. because i understand the frustration trying to explain this to some dummy when to you it is second hand but believe me i do the same thing for anybody that needs help and i can help them . again tahks to everyone involved mark

Mark,

It would be mutually beneficial for you to invest some time reading the web pages that Shepherd posted above. For example, you should know what a rectifier tube/circuit is. You should learn by reading and study to begin to understand as many basic principles as you can.

Here are more links that will be helpful:

Tube Amp Theory and technical:

http://www.ibiblio.org/kuphaldt/socratic/output/animation_bridge_rectifier_fast.gif

http://www.freewebs.com/valvewizard/

http://www.ax84.com/links.html

I always recommend this.

http://ax84.com/p1/P1_Theory_Document.zip

And something to realize is that understanding how current and voltage flows and drops in a circuit. I consider it the heart of troubleshooting.

i cant thank you guys enough for trying to help me it is greatly appreciated mark. i am about to take my time and take it back down to the bottom, and check everything from ground up. hopefully i will find the bad connection during this process. thanks again mark i will keep you guys informed on my progress

Not really. Just that a mistake can damage the transformers resulting in an amp that is worth considerably less for the owner. It would be sad to see the value reduced hundreds of dollars trying to save a few bucks.

I gave instructions that should have been enough to start the troubleshooting process for a person with enough knowledge to poke around in an amp. The response did not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling. What will the measurements mean if you do not know what a plate is and where it is located? Lots of basic information on tubes out there, almost a prerequisite to troubleshooting an amp.

OK, maybe I should have said, "Folks here have great respect for these old amps, and their value as antiques." :wink: I guess I'm the jealous one, as I have never seen a real 5E3, not even a clone here in Japan. (green with envy)

I wanted to encourage Mark to heed the sage advice for safety, and to learn more, but not be discouraged by the amount of study necessary to really know tube amplifiers. I was in a similar boat not many months ago, and receiving encouragement here have studied online and bought several books. But it IS mentally daunting, and expensive and time-consuming. Within my abilities, I have come closer to understanding at a 'hobby level' and will probably continue. I hope the same for all who come here the first time.

charisjapan

4423mark, I saw this thread and wondered why I had not gotten an email notifying me of a response to the thread on your amp....and then I realized that you have started another thread. Imho,....this is very confusing....maybe to you more than anyone. AS for the folks that are in this thread, they are not aware of all that went on in the other thread....and ground is being covered twice.
Do you have heater filament voltage to the 6V6's and the 12A_7 tubes? No. We know this because they are not lit up. I gave you the pins to check in the other thread. Until you have heater filament voltage to all tubes, this amp will not make any sound.
muxhxs and I gave you some insight on the heater filament thing.
There are ways to check the PT.....but I am going to think that if you cannot check the heater filament voltage at all points and check plates voltage, B+ voltages and bias voltages, you are going to be hard pressed to get a handle on things in that amp. I understand your situation with budgetary limits. I would suggest that you get some reading/studying material on tube amplification and start studying. printer2 makes a good point about how major components can be taken out by inexperienced poking and prodding.
Also, reading resistances on those PT windings is not all of the story. Resistances and voltages(in some cases) on the windings can look to be perfect....and the PT can still be no good. I learned this when I sent an 8087 5F6A PT to Mercury Magnetics. I was baffled because not only did the resistances look good but the voltages with the PT out of the chassis looked proper....checked 'live'. But...in the chassis, the PT would not function. Paul Patronette---great guy---called me to tell me that while my tests of resistances and voltages out of the chassis were indicative of a good PT, the problem was that there was a short to from a winding to the frame of the PT. With the PT out of the chassis, that short had no effect on my measurements....and the resistance test that I did didn't take into account a short to the frame of the transformer when that frame was connected to the chassis, right?

I have a suspicion that if a tech had that amp on a bench that it would be makign sound within 5 mintues....if your work with the filter caps was correct and nothing except the heater filament circuit has changed since you had sound with the chassis out of the cabinet. My post to your first thread on this amp was the last of that thread...becasue I haven't had a notice of a reply. IF your new thread was an attempt to get away from me and my replies.....sorry about that.....Here's WAlly!!!!! LOL Imho, your inexperience is leading you to ignore some good advice...first given by muchxs.....while you look for some problem that may not even exist. That heater filament circuit has to be your first concern, imho.
IF you really want to know if the PT is working...pull all tubes and take voltage measurements. Simply thinking that the PT is out because the amp won't make sounds with unheated power tubes and preamp tubes is erroneous thinking, imho. AS muchxs noted and as I reinforced.....you have heater filament voltage to the pilot light, but that circuit ceases to function past that point. This is because there is a problem along that circuit.

Good luck with it....and check out that heater filament circuit.

I have a suspicion that if a tech had that amp on a bench that it would be makign sound within 5 mintues....

Totally! Plus a general, please be very careful!
I don't know your age or general health, but a jolt in the wrong spot will kill you. I know you know, but it can't be said enough.

I'm all for learning though so don't want to discourage any help etc; as you probably know Wally and Muchxs's advice is about as close to gospel as it gets (plus so many others)
Always good etiquette to post lots of quality pics and a schem. too. Good luck!

I didn't know we had a Wally... that is great. Not nearly so eloquently but I was about to jump in also and suggest some of your and other fellas who know better ideas.

Ok Mark I also have a real Tweed Dlx... and I know some about 'em. I was a "tweet" in the Navy years ago, when there were tube amps on planes. yea, propellors too:) So, please trust Wally, he is trying to help you. They are dangerous yes, but also if you learn properly how to be safe, and learn some of the basics of HOW the thing works you can work safely. It will open a whole new world of fun for ya'.

Good luck citizen.

Papa Lion, I am hanging on by a thread...but I am still here after 12,000+ posts! And...there is another Wally here.....I forget his user name...but he signs 'Wally'. Please don't confuse me with him....he might take exception to that, right? (;^)

Danger.....what does it take?? A tenth of an amp traveling from one hand to the other across your heart at the 'right' split of a second and that heart ceases to beat, right?
Let's all be careful.

i do appreciate all the help from everyone and no i didnt start anew thread to get away from anyone i think you all are super people and i know is is frusurating trying to tell someone with little experienc on these extremly dangerous tube amps. if some one could tel me the steps on checking thi heater filiment voltage i will check, just need to know the proper steps and where to test from andt and where you want the meter set thanks mark. i have taken resistance test on the transformer primary wires and the one that is hooked to the switch and the one hooked to the fuse both black out of the transformer i get a reading of .010 set on 2k ohms. and each end to chassis ground i get no reading on the black primary to the switch no matter where i put the meter the black primary wire from the fuse i get nothing no matter wher i set the meter. just dont look good for the transformer. just my quess thanks mark

I'm sure the linked threads will mention some of this too. Go to Wallyworld or Lowes and get a nice thick rubber mat for the floor. Your bench should be clear and wood or plastic, I like masonite surface myself... not metal. Mount the power source (like a power strip with on/off sw) Have a fair to good meter available.

I like a swivel chair with rubber caps on bottom, I'm insulated well from the floor. That is a good start. ANY liquids are not to be on this bench top (Exception: Small spray Can of 226 contact cleaner with lubricant from Home Depot). Set your drink away behind you on the desk etc... no liquids. So now you can get shocked but it much more difficult for electricity to ground to the floor itself thru you:)

I have pencil diameter lucite rods about a foot long I accumated somewhere which I use for probing and shoving things around a bit. Solid non conducting plastic with no metal shank, not screwdrivers. Nippers pliars etc all have rubber insulation.

I use large blocks of wood to support the amp, they are cut to fit nicely around the transformers. Just a yoke kind of thing so it cannot slip fall or slide. However you do it, you need to be able to set the amp securely face up or more likely face down so you can see the guts. Get a good light so you can see what is there clearly.

I like to ground the caps with rubber shielded alligator clip leads. One goes on the chassis the other right onto the large leads of the cap. Bleeding down is not a 2 second proposition the caps will actually glean extra electrons from the circuit and recharge up some... give it time, and drain each set of the larger caps.

Now, unplugged and alligator clipped caps bled off, using your layout diagram eyeball the thing looking for a power section, a pre amp section, and an output section. Try to reference back to the schematic till it makes some sense. Read up on these till you get a pretty good handle on it. The 6V A.C. thru the light bulb to the tube sockets which powers up the tube filaments is there also.

When you are ready, pm Wally and let him help you find those 6V a.c. filament heater wires. And off you go EZ as that. Eventually you will read the B+ DC volts several places and there will be some clarity for you.

I doubt your transformer is bad, components in circuit read differently often.... could be but I think with a little troubleshooting you will find a broken wire, dirty pot, cold solder joint etc. It has had life before, it will again.


ps: Lubbock huh? I'm originally Big Bend coiuntry around Marfa. Glad to meet ya' boy howdy.

hi guys i think i have gained some progress i found a wire that had a bad connection from pilot light to pin seven on the first 6v6 and i now at least have power to all the tube and they are lit along with the pilot light. when i plug a guitar cord in it now i can hear a faint almost static sound sounds like it is near the power transformer so a little step forward any way. i thanks you so much and i will be in touch hopefully with even better news thanks again mark

also when i make my alligator jumper wire for draing the caps should i put a resistor in the middle and if i should does it have to be any certain size resistor or will about any resistor work thanks mark. i am going to lick this animal yet!!!!!!! after having it purring like a kitten i have to hear it again. also i have replaced the 475 volt caps should i go ahead and replace the 25 vdc ones also

time to order chinese and ask for an extra set of chopsticks!

i wouldn't replace anything without having some evidence that it's bad, otherwise you're likely to be barking up the wrong tree.

You just mentioned that you found a loose connection, and that the amp was working before, if you have a chopstick you could turn the amp on, put the volumes at 12:00, plug in an instrument cable and then (with one hand) probe each and every connection with a chop-stick to see if any of them causes a change in the sound of the amp. That will help you (audibly) see if there are some other suspect connections in the amp.

One of the first things I do on bringing an old amp back from the dead is clean the tube sockets. A tube making a bad connection can give you a fit.
I always pull the tubes with the power off, spray contact/switch cleaner on the tube sockets and tube pins and work the tube up and down in the socket very carefully. Also using the same cleaner on your pots. This can make a big difference in amp reponse.

It helps too sometimes to have another speaker to test with. If your speaker was bad, your amp could be working fine but the speaker not delivering.

Having some backup known good tubes to try can help you know if a tube is bad. A tube can lite up and still be bad.

I didn't read all the postings, so this may have been covered already. Hope you get it going soon. Platefire

BTW-If you got a camera, could take some pictures of the circuit and post them we could possibly see a problem and let you know.

Platefire +1
Great, things are coming around. Unplugged you can now lubricate and clean the pots with a litle bit of the 226 spray. There is a notch at the rear edge of the pot, spray in there.

latest update on the 20.00 5e3 nightmare. thanks to all the great help i received on this forum i did more testing on the power trans former and came to the conclusion it maybe bad, so i ordered a classic tone tranny and installed it and i am now up and running again. the only question i have is this one comes with another center tap wire that is green with a yellow stripe. i do not have that hooked to nothing. am i correct by not hooking it. the amp works great except i now have that 60 hz humming when turning the tone up. but it does have a cracked tone capacitor, i was going to try a orange drop capacitor would that be ok. againn thank you everyone who has tried to help i have learned alot mark

Mark, that green/yellow wire is the center tap for the heater filaments. IT should go to ground unless there are some 100ohm balancing resistors going to ground off of the contact points for the green heater filaments wires at the pilot light. IF you have these resistors, then you should tape off/insulate the end of that green/yellow wire and bundle it up so that it is out of the way and secure.
What ever cap you have handy that is of the sem value as that tone cap will work. An ORnage drop is fine. Some folks wouldrather use different caps....Sozo, Mallory... because they 'hear' that the Orange Drops are a bit too clean/sterile, but others prefer them.

Make sure none of the heater legs are grounded already as shown in the original Fender schematic.

I am a big time tinkerer, that valuable an amp, I would take to someone who knows what they are doing. To big a chance of frying expensive, hard to replace, parts.

thanks you guys your help has been the best yea i ended up capping off the green yellow stiprd wire and everything seems to be fine. it is great to have accomplished this myself and with some great advise ,but i have learned alot and alot more to learn. so bye for now and thanks again to everyone who helped me out. i will be listing it on ebay soon hate to do it but money is tight. anyone interested let me know i am open to offers of a reasonable amount thanks mark

Hey Mark, before you auction it off, please post pics! :grin:

I like to do all my own stuff too, but I took a couple months to study before I tore into my vintage amp.

i will post some pictures tommorrow mark

Where are the pictures?