Backcycling

Can someone explain backcycling chords? I've googled it and can't find a simple explanation...

I know it's a chord substitution technique to deal with a situation where you are holding one chord over a few measures, and that you 'backcycle' chords thru the circle of fifths. But that's about all I've got...

Music tends to move in fourths...backcycling is just moving backwards through the key cycle to get where you want...

It's often used to set up the chord you want or to break up a long stretch of a chord...you can start as far away as you want, if you're clever...root motion is what we're talking about here...

You can set up any chord with it's V...you can set up that V with a ii...this can be done very simply or more drawn out...

So to get from, say, F to Bb, I could play Fmaj7 to Em7b5 to A7alt to Dm7 to G13 to Cm7 to F7 to Bb...follow the roots...right backwards through the cycle...if I started to use a tritone sub or two in there you'd really get some great motion...

You do have to know what the diatonic maj, min, dom chords are in all 12 keys - as well as their tri-tone subs to use it effectively - Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5.

*It also helps to be able to know when it's cool to use a dom or alt dom chord in place of a m7 (vi and iii are the most common places to do it).

Music tends to move in fourths...backcycling is just moving backwards through the key cycle to get where you want...

It's often used to set up the chord you want or to break up a long stretch of a chord...you can start as far away as you want, if you're clever...root motion is what we're talking about here...

You can set up any chord with it's V...you can set up that V with a ii...this can be done very simply or more drawn out...

So to get from, say, F to Bb, I could play Fmaj7 to Em7b5 to A7alt to Dm7 to G13 to Cm7 to F7 to Bb...follow the roots...right backwards through the cycle...if I started to use a tritone sub or two in there you'd really get some great motion...

OK, that makes sense, but how are you choosing the quality of those chords? I see why you are choosing those roots (going thru the cycle of fifths) but how do you decide what quality (maj, min, 7b5) each chord will have?

OK, that makes sense, but how are you choosing the quality of those chords? I see why you are choosing those roots (going thru the cycle of fifths) but how do you decide what quality (maj, min, 7b5) each chord will have?

See my above post.
You have to know the 'quality' of the chords in a harmonized major scale at least. For both the target chord and where you're coming from.
(Blues For Alice by C. Parker is a great example of this - sometimes it's referred to as 'circle' changes.)
JT backcycled from the F w/in the F major scale and then adjusted to Bb by doing a ii - V just before the Bb. He sub'd a Cm7 and F7 for what would normally be a C7 and F (which would actually work fine too). This is why you really need to know your major scale harmony cold.

*Then melodic minor and then finally how you would harmonize modally.

See my above post.
You have to know the 'quality' of the chords in a harmonized major scale at least. For both the target chord and where you're coming from.
(Blues For Alice by C. Parker is a great example of this - sometimes it's referred to as 'circle' changes.)
JT backcycled from the F w/in the F major scale and then adjusted to Bb by doing a ii - V just before the Bb. He sub'd a Cm7 and F7 for what would normally be a C7 and F (which would actually work fine too). This is why you really need to know your major scale harmony cold.

*Then melodic minor and then finally how you would harmonize modally.

I do know the quality of chords in a harmonized major scale. Seems like to backcycle from F to Bb would be : Edim7, Dm7, C7, BbM7. I must be missing something here...:mrgreen:

I do know the quality of chords in a harmonized major scale. Seems like to backcycle from F to Bb would be : Edim7, Dm7, C7, BbM7. I must be missing something here...:mrgreen:

Yeah, definitely missing something.
Re-read the above posts.

I don't understand the first jump from the F to the E - all the others are in fourths. Why is that one not?

Yeah, definitely missing something.
Re-read the above posts.

Duh, I was backcycling by degree, not by fourths.

I think what I'm missing is the V ii connection.

Jazztele wrote:
You can set up any chord with it's V...you can set up that V with a ii...this can be done very simply or more drawn out...

Can you provide the simplest set of chords (no subs) to backcycle from F to Bb?

How about something like Gm7 to C7 to F7, setting up the Bb...

How about something like Gm7 to C7 to F7, setting up the Bb...

Cool, I'll give that a try tonight when I have my guitar in hand. Thanks!

I don't understand the first jump from the F to the E - all the others are in fourths. Why is that one not?

just a jump to a chord diatonic to the F...Em7b5 would be the vii(a half diminished)

I don't understand the first jump from the F to the E - all the others are in fourths. Why is that one not?

Basic substitution is one way to explain that - and really all of the above examples. Em7b5 is the vii chord subbing for the V at the point that they change - but theres also the sheer compelling motion of semi tone root movement.

Em7b5 is basically a C9 chord w/o a C.

E G Bb D = Em7b5
(C) E G Bb D = C9. And C would be a fifth from F.

These guys are getting too fancy. You can precede any chord by its "V7" or properly speaking a dominant chord whose root is a fifth above the chord, ie: in the key of C, you can precede the V7, G7, with its V7, D7. You can precede the D7 with its V7, A7. And precede the A7 with its V7, E7, although that is fairly rare in most popular music (Please Don't Talk About Me When I'm Gone, and 5 foot 2, Eyes of Blue).

To extend it further you can precede each of those V7s with the minor 7th chord whose root is a fifth above, ie precede the D7 by Am7, the A7 by Em7 and the E7 by Bm7.

These guys are talking major 7th this and b5th that just to make it seem more mysterious. And to show off. They need girlfriends, but they're not gonna find them playing Jazz. Just sayin'.

These guys are talking major 7th this and b5th that just to make it seem more mysterious. And to show off. They need girlfriends, but they're not gonna find them playing Jazz. Just sayin'.

Its true - married with 2 kids and working this crowd is nearly going in the too hard basket!

Im off to the Lydian Chromatic forum to show off with the other geeks...

To extend it further you can precede each of those V7s with the minor 7th chord whose root is a fifth above, ie precede the D7 by Am7, the A7 by Em7 and the E7 by Bm7.



That's kinda fancy Leon. In fact very 'jazzy' fancy :wink:.

These guys are talking major 7th this and b5th that just to make it seem more mysterious. And to show off. They need girlfriends, but they're not gonna find them playing Jazz. Just sayin'.

:lol:

I feel a t-shirt coming on.

I don't need no girlfriend.....
I just need mysteriously complicated Jazz!!

You funny Leon.:lol:

"Look at these jazz people. Of course they play soft. It's a trick so you can't hear them" - Nigel Tufnel

Sorry for lashing out, guys. Had a semi-rough week. Never post after 9:00 p.m.

But all seriousness aside, how can a regular player use that knowledge, incorporating it in soloing or something? Or is it just compositional? On a good day, on a cycle of dominants progression, I can stick in a ii7 line, or maybe a note or two of it, before a dominant line, but that's about as far as I can take it, ie: play E7 A7 D7 G lines as Bm7 E7 Em7 A7 Am7 D7 G lines. That will work in a Western Swing tune like Right or Wrong.

Good thing I'm married....I thought my example WAS simple.

Good thing I'm married....I thought my example WAS simple.

"F to Bb, I could play Fmaj7 to Em7b5 to A7alt to ..."

Yeah, really simple, for Joe Pass. You lost me at Em7b5. Make your marriage work.

Although in fairness, your later explanation made it easier: jump to any chord found in the key you are in, and go from there. It is just that most of us don't encounter that jump.

One of the things that confuses us non-Jazzers is the extensions. We get that you guys always use extended chords, but it adds a layer of complexity, like its some other stuff we need to understand beyond the root movement.

And since you guys mean every word you say, why these particular extensions? What do these notes add to the movement?

"So to get from, say, F to Bb, I could play Fmaj7 to Em7b5 to A7alt to Dm7 to G13 to Cm7 to F7 to Bb"

just a jump to a chord diatonic to the F...Em7b5 would be the vii(a half diminished)

Ok, got it. Thanks. I knew it was the vii chord, but I just thought if you were going *from* F, that you would start on F and begin your movement of fourths from there.


These guys are talking major 7th this and b5th that just to make it seem more mysterious. And to show off. They need girlfriends, but they're not gonna find them playing Jazz. Just sayin'.

Don't tell that to my wife and kids.

Sorry, but you have this one wrong - thanks for playing anyway. Some of us actually enjoy discussing theory - just because you don't doesn't make it wrong or pretentious for us to do so. If I wanted to show off, I don't think I would do it anonymously on a forum filled with total strangers, most of whom are nowhere near me, geographically.

There was a thread on here within the last year or so about why guitarists hate knowledge. So true for so many - they think if you study the academics of music, then you have no soul. Apparently, to play with feeling, you can't know what you're doing. This may not apply to Leon, but it does to many. Always cracks me up to see folks put down those of us who actually want to get down to the core of what we're doing musically, to disassemble it and understand it the way we want to. Sure, theory's not for everyone - many are content without knowing any theory or how to read music. But why insult those of us who are trying to have a conversation about it? Besides, I think JT is a jazz guitar teacher - so I'd hope he could understand the theory and be able to explain it in a digestable way.

Good thing I'm married....I thought my example WAS simple.

This thread made me finally realize why I just can't seem to get playing jazz: I got married *before* learning how. You must have done it the right way :wink:

Ok, got it. Thanks. I knew it was the vii chord, but I just thought if you were going *from* F, that you would start on F and begin your movement of fourths from there.





Sorry, but you have this one wrong - thanks for playing anyway. Some of us actually enjoy discussing theory - just because you don't doesn't make it wrong or pretentious for us to do so. If I wanted to show off, I don't think I would do it anonymously on a forum filled with total strangers, most of whom are nowhere near me, geographically.



I've been conversing with these guys for a long time, so I didn't need to use a smilie for them to know I was joking.

Ok, got it. Thanks. I knew it was the vii chord, but I just thought if you were going *from* F, that you would start on F and begin your movement of fourths from there.




Don't tell that to my wife and kids.

Sorry, but you have this one wrong - thanks for playing anyway. Some of us actually enjoy discussing theory - just because you don't doesn't make it wrong or pretentious for us to do so. If I wanted to show off, I don't think I would do it anonymously on a forum filled with total strangers, most of whom are nowhere near me, geographically.

There was a thread on here within the last year or so about why guitarists hate knowledge. So true for so many - they think if you study the academics of music, then you have no soul. Apparently, to play with feeling, you can't know what you're doing. This may not apply to Leon, but it does to many. Always cracks me up to see folks put down those of us who actually want to get down to the core of what we're doing musically, to disassemble it and understand it the way we want to. Sure, theory's not for everyone - many are content without knowing any theory or how to read music. But why insult those of us who are trying to have a conversation about it? Besides, I think JT is a jazz guitar teacher - so I'd hope he could understand the theory and be able to explain it in a digestable way.

Hey, Milton Babbitt (and his childhood friend, Eudora Welty) is from Jackson. He played a huge role in establishing music theory as an academic discipline. He used to gig around town playing jazz on the clarinet.

I appreciate what you are saying, and I have fought the good fight a lot in this forum. But Leon is cool and has a good way of explaining things at a practical level.

Some band (don't want to google it right now) did a melodic cover of N.W.A.'s song "Boyz 'n the Hood" (I think I have the title spelled right :)

Anyway, just learned it for a little show comin' up..

It's interesting, here it is:

verse: A... C#... D... E-flatdim...Fdim... A... F#minor7...E.. D..

chorus: A... F#minor... B... E7

So, from the chorus, you can feel a I/vi/ii/V7 circle of fifths...

The verse is just substitutions off of that a little bit?

Haven't analyzed it, just played it. Want to comment on this tune I'm all ears!

Everybody's right on in this thread, imo... Two sides to it and all.

I've been conversing with these guys for a long time, so I didn't need to use a smilie for them to know I was joking.

As I said, I wasn't necessarily directing all of my comments to you - they clearly don't all apply to you as you were discussing 5s of 5s. There are a bunch on here who adhere to that thought process, though.

Hey, Milton Babbitt (and his childhood friend, Eudora Welty) is from Jackson. He played a huge role in establishing music theory as an academic discipline. He used to gig around town playing jazz on the clarinet.

I appreciate what you are saying, and I have fought the good fight a lot in this forum. But Leon is cool and has a good way of explaining things at a practical level.

Yeah, I've read enough of his stuff to know that. I wasn't going off on him - just that mentality.

But that's the first time I've ever heard anyone refer to Eudora as Milton Babbitt's childhood friend. She's a huge deal around here, and in all of Mississippi.

Yeah, we all know Leon was joshin'.
*And then he goes on to mention that you can approach all those V chords by a Vm above that.

These guys are getting too fancy. You can precede any chord by its "V7" or properly speaking a dominant chord whose root is a fifth above the chord, ie: in the key of C, you can precede the V7, G7, with its V7, D7. You can precede the D7 with its V7, A7. And precede the A7 with its V7, E7, although that is fairly rare in most popular music (Please Don't Talk About Me When I'm Gone, and 5 foot 2, Eyes of Blue).

To extend it further you can precede each of those V7s with the minor 7th chord whose root is a fifth above, ie precede the D7 by Am7, the A7 by Em7 and the E7 by Bm7.

Thanks Leon!! That is the first time I have ever understood this. For some of us a firm grounding in the very basics is necessary before we can understand what the more accomplished musicians consider something that should be easily understood. When it comes to jazz, there seems to be very little middle ground between not interested and fully immersed.

I think it is a bigger problem for those of us that have not listened to a lot of jazz. The directions are harder to follow if you have not been there before.

Next: finding the definition of a tritone substitution that an old hilbilly like me can understand.

Thanks everyone, good thread.

One of the things that confuses us non-Jazzers is the extensions. We get that you guys always use extended chords, but it adds a layer of complexity, like its some other stuff we need to understand beyond the root movement.

+1

Backcycling is fun. I will backcycle through the circle on just V chords (including tri-tone subs), ii-V's and standard harmonized major.

Next: finding the definition of a tritone substitution that an old hilbilly like me can understand.


Nuttin' to it. The rule is, for a V7 chord, you can substitute a 7th chord a tritone away (up or down is the same chord). So in the key of G, the V7 is D7, spelled D F# A C. The tritone sub is Ab7, spelled Ab C Eb Gb. Both of those chords have the same internal tritone, the dissonance of which causes the listener to want resolution (relief). And one of those notes is the leading tone to the tonic G (1/2 step below the tonic), which pulls the ear to that home note.

In the D7 chord the tritone notes are F# and C. In the Ab7 chord they are Gb (same as F#) and C. The leading tone is the F# (Gb).

On another level, the Ab7 is just a half step above the G, so it will pull the ear to the G even without the tritone. We approach chords by playing the chord a half step above or below all the time.

These guys are getting too fancy. You can precede any chord by its "V7" or properly speaking a dominant chord whose root is a fifth above the chord, ie: in the key of C, you can precede the V7, G7, with its V7, D7. You can precede the D7 with its V7, A7. And precede the A7 with its V7, E7, although that is fairly rare in most popular music (Please Don't Talk About Me When I'm Gone, and 5 foot 2, Eyes of Blue).

To extend it further you can precede each of those V7s with the minor 7th chord whose root is a fifth above, ie precede the D7 by Am7, the A7 by Em7 and the E7 by Bm7.

These guys are talking major 7th this and b5th that just to make it seem more mysterious. And to show off. They need girlfriends, but they're not gonna find them playing Jazz. Just sayin'.

Hey!

This actually made sense. I'll probably never use it, but it made sense.

And since you guys mean every word you say, why these particular extensions? What do these notes add to the movement?

"So to get from, say, F to Bb, I could play Fmaj7 to Em7b5 to A7alt to Dm7 to G13 to Cm7 to F7 to Bb"


The Em7b5 starts the flow of setting up the Dm-- a half diminished is a classic "ii" chord in a minor cadence.

Elsewhere there's just some voice leading I like...actually, I was trying to simplify...I really wanted to write:

Em7b5 A7b13 | Dm9 G13 G7#5 | Cm9 F7 F7#5 | Bbmaj7

But a line like that would probably keep the OP celibate for a few weeks.

I dont talk about this stuff with my wife - thats why Im here!

But its the same old question - how long is a piece of string?

How simple is simple?

I guess I live and work in an environment that celebrates the idea of answering questions with more questions...

If I was really clever - I'd make more sense when I respond to the OP..

Theory is a game - quite a funny one, in a serious way...or is it the other way around?

for example:

On another level, the Ab7 is just a half step above the G, so it will pull the ear to the G even without the tritone. We approach chords by playing the chord a half step above or below all the time.

Em7b5 is the vii chord subbing for the V at the point that they change - but theres also the sheer compelling motion of semi tone root movement.

Just sayin..

Anyway - I treat Leon's critique in the same way - funny and serious. :cool:

Found this website with a simple explanation: http://www.jazzguitarlessons.net/jazz-chords-1.html#backcycling

Ernest, I am not a great theory guy. I find my tri tone subs this way. Db7 is the tri tone of G. D is the 5th of G. I take the 5th of the dominant chord I'm working with and flatten it and make it a dominant. Not sure this is the best way of thinking about it but it seems to work so far.

isnt 'How High the Moon' a classic example of backcycling?

isnt 'How High the Moon' a classic example of backcycling?

In general, yes.
All the Things You Are, conversely, is 'front' cycling - moving forward in 4ths. Which is how I like to think. Music doesn't move backwards.

In general, yes.
All the Things You Are, conversely, is 'front' cycling - moving forward in 4ths. Which is how I like to think. Music doesn't move backwards.

Backcycling means you choose a target chord, work backwards to create a cycle toward it. It's kind of like finding your destination on the map first, then working back to find the best route.

In its simplest state, Take the A Train is the product of a backcycle:

Target chord is C:

C C D7 D7 G7 G7 C...then a turnaround back to one.

The D7 and G7 Preceding are arrived at by backcycling, though it's not a long version of the cycle. Rhythm changes bridge is the same idea.

I've done an arrangement of Cottontail where I superimposed a backcycle on the A section.

Ended up as:

F#7 B7 E7 A7 D7 G7 C7 F7 (two beats per change)

and landing on the fifth bar on Bb7

I know what it is. I just don't like thinking that way. I prefer to think forward in 4ths towards my target instead of thinking back from my target.
I do use the technique when I'm arranging though.