I Feel Like I've Failed - 1st Tele

Alright, here's my issue:
I needed a place to store all of my spare parts. I thought to myself: "Ahhh, a Home Depot Tele will be perfect! I have a spare 25.5" (I think, it was given to me by my cousin) neck, a coupla spare pickups, some 1X6 construction-grade pine that I could laminate, some pots, and an el cheapo adjustable bridge. This will be no problem!"

The thing looks wicked cool, but has some issues:
I chased a grounding problem for ages, only to find that it was in the windings of my Squier Humbucker. It's happened before, and a good buddy donated a MIM 'bucker in it's place. I won't even talk about the First Act single coil in the neck... :roll: I figured I could ignore any weirdness from there as long as the thing played in tune, but, it is impossible to intonate! What should be an "E" on the twelfth fret is an "F". I've tried intonating it to no avail. I triple checked all of my scale measurements, and everything's at 25.5". This makes me feel like a failure both as a craftsman and a musician.

BUT: There may be a saving grace! The nut is way to high right now, as I haven't bothered to lower it at all. The top of the nut is 1/8" from the fret board. Could this much height have that great an effect on the intonation?

Sorry... it's been a long week...

Well it looks cool atleast.

It leans up against the speaker okay. ;-)

A high nut will give you intonation nightmares, but not 50 cents' worth at the 12th fret.

High nut + bad intonation = 50 cents, maybe? I mean, it was a "perfect" E and then an "on the flat side F"...

The effects of a high nut are strongest at the first couple frets, but diminish rapidly as you go up the neck. You have the saddles screwed back as far as they'll go already?

Nonsense that you're a failure at setting up a guitar.....

I've learned that 99% of the time, tuning and intonation problems, are a result of a bad string nut. Have another try at it. Do you have a file set and feeler guages? And look around here and the internet for lots of good tutorials.

Keep at 'er.

The intonation is definitely awful in the first few frets, is almost ok from about the 6 - 8th frets, and is awful again higher. They're not back quite as far as they'll go, as the difference wasn't quite enough to be playable yet. The action on the entire thing is really high. It's the same height from nut to saddles to allow for better slide playing (at least until the thing is fixed XD). At the twelfth, the strings are almost 1/4" off the fretboard (not the frets themselves).

I have the gauges, but am lacking files. I guess I never realized how important having the right tools for the job is... How much is it to take it in for a nut job, usually?
(Don't want to spend lotsa money on new files right now, although I love new tools...)

It can be more if they think you're a nut job.


BTW, the guitar looks cool.

Does the harmonic at the octave align with the twelfth fret? Measure from the nut to the saddles. Is the length close to 25.5"?

When you measure, I know you say it is 25.5 but is the 12th fret halfway between? Double check that. Sounds like you have a scale problem somehow, of course the nut ain't helpin either.

Lower your neck pickup some. Measure the distance from the fretboard edge of the nut to the middle of the 12th fret. Then check the middle of the 12th fret to the top of where the string breaks over the saddle. They should be the same to start off and should get you in the ball park. String height at the nut, saddle height, and neck relief all have an impact on intonation.

I would never consider that a failure. It is not the exception but the rule that in every endeavor that a person begins, there is a learning curve. Be it running a gas station or building a guitar.
Don't be so hard on yourself.
I realize that it is probably frustrating, but it will turn around. And think of how much you have learned already. You now know how to recognize bad wiring in a pickup, and are learning about the intonation process.
I call that winning, not losing.

Looks like you have it plugged into the wall. It'll never sound right that way ;-)

try putting your B string at 25.5 and then intonate the rest of the strings from there. Best of luck, that 'may' be an odd-ball scale length neck too in which case you 'might' be attempting to intonate to the wrong scale. You can do a Google search for Wfret and get the exact measurements between frets, that could also be the issue. Good looking build there, it practically screams Rock 'n Roll

Can you take a more straight on shot of the guitar? We might be able to get a better idea from that.

It could be a bad string. Ive seen that before. What is the measurement between the nut and th 12 th fret? That will tell you if it is an intonation problem or not. Also, are you sure it is not a high 13th fret?

Oh, and do the other strings intonate, or are they the same way?

As it's been implied already, you need to set nut and bridge action before you can set intonation.
Tell us how you did your measurements?

After you've verified the "distance between nut & 12th fret/12th fret to bridge", have you
tried with your saddle all the way forward? And if so, how does that affect the 12th fret
tuning?

I have a spare 25.5" (I think, it was given to me by my cousin) neck

So because it was given to you that makes it impossible to measure? :confused:

Guitar building isn't rocket science but there are a few things to measure and plan out.

The four things I would do first:

Check to see if the neck is straight. Adjust truss rod to make it so.

Check the frets to see if any of them are particularly high. Dress them if necessary.

Remove strings and use the "Half Pencil" method to mark and cut the nut properly.

Then set intonation comparing the 12th fret note to the 12th fret harmonic. Use the bridge pickup and the amp when comparing them for the clearest sound.

All of these operations can be found by searching the forum . It is possible that if both the nut and the bridge actions are really high, the string may be stretching that far. I have dealt with a similar circumstance before on a really cheap guitar that someone replaced the nut and never adjusted it correctly.

The real purpose of the intonation adjustment is to compensate for the stretch of the string as it is pressed to the fingerboard. Heavier gauge strings stretch more, hence the saddle is further from the nut on the lower strings, and steel strings are even more prone to this. As the action is improved, and the string gets closer to the fretboard (both at the nut and the heel of the neck), the string will stretch less when pressed down. This means the saddle doesn't have to be as far from the nut to compensate.

It may take a bit of time and fiddling, but if you're careful you should be able to get this fairly easily.

If absolute worst comes to worst, you may have to move the bridge. If you do, you probably won't have to move it much.

The only thing you've failed to do, is measure :wink:

The four things I would do first:

Check to see if the neck is straight. Adjust truss rod to make it so.

Check the frets to see if any of them are particularly high. Dress them if necessary.

Remove strings and use the "Half Pencil" method to mark and cut the nut properly.

Then set intonation comparing the 12th fret note to the 12th fret harmonic. Use the bridge pickup and the amp when comparing them for the clearest sound.

All of these operations can be found by searching the forum . It is possible that if both the nut and the bridge actions are really high, the string may be stretching that far. I have dealt with a similar circumstance before on a really cheap guitar that someone replaced the nut and never adjusted it correctly.

The real purpose of the intonation adjustment is to compensate for the stretch of the string as it is pressed to the fingerboard. Heavier gauge strings stretch more, hence the saddle is further from the nut on the lower strings, and steel strings are even more prone to this. As the action is improved, and the string gets closer to the fretboard (both at the nut and the heel of the neck), the string will stretch less when pressed down. This means the saddle doesn't have to be as far from the nut to compensate.

It may take a bit of time and fiddling, but if you're careful you should be able to get this fairly easily.

What's the half pencil method?

basically, it is half a pencil length-wise. I shaved down a carpenters pencil so that the lead core rides on the frets. If you have a sharp point on the drawing end of the pencil, it will precisely mark the fret height on the nut so you know how deeply to cut the string slots (assuming the first few frets are level...).

I'd recommend a more basic fundamental step first: make sure your neck is actually a 25.5" scale neck. You would do this by downloading/printing the whole fret spacing schedule from any of numerous sources, or calculate it yourself, then using as precise a measuring tool as you can lay your hands on, check enough frets' spacing from each other, to make sure your necks fret spacing matches what a 25.5" scale should be. You could mount any neck to produce 25.5" from the nut to the bridge, but since your 12th fret won't be exactly 1/2 the length, you'll never get it to intonate.

THEN, on to the good advice offered here--first measure from the very front of the nut to the 12th fret, from the 12th fret to the saddles on the bridge. Some would say you could determine that your neck is a 25.5 neck by just measuring from the front of the nut to the 12th fret, but I think, with the trouble you've been having, that the little bit of extra work to measure a good number of frets, to make sure they're in the right place for a 25.5 neck, is time well spent. Then you know what you've got, and can deal with it.

Pay for a nut job, or an entire setup.

You can make your own serviceable set of nut files using a triangular file, and a standard automotive feeler gauge set. Select the gauges' thicknesses that correspond with the string diameters you use, and file small teeth into the edge of the feeler gauges, and use them to "saw" the proper depth.

Also, Dan Earlewine uses cut string ends, superglued to popscicle sticks, to make little "finishing" files, to round the bottom, and smooth your nut groove bottoms. (Don't really need them for the non-wound strings).

In my experience, intonation is the last thing to do after the nut is as perfect as you can get it, the action is where you want it, the neck straightness or slight relief is dialed in--everything else first.

PS-- Man, you built a guitar, you're not a failure at all. Like many projects, the closer you get to the end, the more details you have to contend with, and the more finesse it takes to bring it to a good result. Don't Give Up! Whip that thing into shape.


http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j383/rickspeir/May%2012%20Challenge%202012/IMG_5401.jpg
The half pencil method illustrated. The pencil has been sanded flat on one side to half its original width, and is then run across the frets, scribing the arc of the fretboard on the nut. "sneak" up on this line carefully when sawing/filing grooves in the nut, testing frequently to make sure you don't file too much out of the nut.

Keep in mind that a theoretical 25.5" scale needs compensation at the bridge. The 1st string will likely be pretty close to 25.5" (maybe slightly longer), the rest of the strings will need to be a bit longer, possibly as much as .25" at the 6th string. Your bridge placement has to allow for this to be possible within the range of intonation adjustment.

There's really no point in adjusting intonation until you have the neck straight, the nut filed correctly, and the action adjusted. If the nut slots are not deep enough, the guitar will definitely play sharp.

Hell, I can see from the picture what the problem is. You've got a short scale neck on that thing. No wonder it won't intonate.

And if all that fails, shoot me a PM and you can stop by my shop and I'll show how it's done and let you use the proper tools. Aside from the guitar you'll need to bring a notepad, a pencil and a 12 pack of Heineken (or better).

Steve

Awwww... you guys make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :) I double-checked the neck scale and measurements, and everything is 25.5" with the twelfth fret exactly in-between. I think my main problem is not knowing how to properly cut a nut. The pencil method seems worth a shot, but I have another build that's in need of nut work as well. I think I'll just take 'em in to a shop, pay for the furniture-like one to be done and have the luthier show me a thing or two on how to do it. It sounds like that's my real problem, as the nut is extraordinarily high. Great lil' slide machine right now though... XD

So that's a failure huh? A first-time, great looking piece of work (or art) like that, with some easily fixable intonation problems. Sure sounds like a failure to me!

What you have actually done is motivate people like me who are considering a Tele build. Some of the Teles on this site are worthy of a Jedi Knight - somewhat disconcerting for someone with no skill and no experience like me. Way to go man.

You'll get the intonation figured out. Just be careful you don't slice a finger tip off on you pick guard or control plate!

If you saw how badly I bungled just trying to put the pickups back in after refinishing a body, you'd feel like Dan Erlewine... I'm afraid to take it in to be fixed because they'll think I let a deranged monkey tinker under the pickguard. Keep at it, you're light-years ahead of me!

An update for y'all: the intonation is MUCH closer after sawing down the nut a bit. I still have a little further to go, and should probably invest in some nice files as my needle files are a little bit wide. Thankfully, this was done at zero cost as a way to store some spare parts. All in all, it's been a very good learning process, and I can't wait to start my next one! Bahahahahaha...... :)

Use that teeny tiny point on your needle files. It'll take longer but turn out better.

(Don't want to spend lotsa money on new files right now, although I love new tools...)[/QUOTE]

www.harborfreight.com or find a local store.
Cheap tools. And their diamond files are very decent for the money.

The effects of a high nut are strongest at the first couple frets, but diminish rapidly as you go up the neck. You have the saddles screwed back as far as they'll go already?

a high nut also means high action. Its becomes very hard to set the action properly when the nut isn't cut right.