strat build doesnt "ring" unplugged

although this one is a strat build the principle will likely be the same as T builds:
completed two strats over the last couple of years. same spec alder bodies...one RW fingerboard and another maple fingerboard.
The first is a "61" clone and the second is a "55/56" clone
they both sound and play great through amps but I have always noticed that the "61" kind of "jangles" and chimes more unplugged than the "55/56".
any comments or suggestions. both have thin homemade "sunburst" nitro finishes.
iggy

There will be people that will tell you that the acoustic tone of an electric guitar does not and cannot make any difference to the sound that comes out of the amp.

These people are so staggeringly wrong it's not even funny.

As far as "suggestions", there really aren't any. You can't fix wood, it either resonates or it doesn't. And if you're happy with the amplified sound of your instruments, there really is nothing to fix.

I tap test my body blanks even before they're glued together, no sense in wasting time and effort on a piece of wood that won't ring. I do after they're glued together as well, and so on down the line - just to be sure - but I've never had a piece of wood that passed the initial tap test that didn't end up as a great sounding guitar.

I've had electric guitars that played great and looked great... but they didnt ring unplugged and basically never sounded great thru an amp, no matter what kind of electronics I shoved in there.

However, "great" is subjective. I've kept a few guitars that didnt sound quite as good as the other ones, because they were fun to play.

Aside from the wood involved - I would look a the bridge and nut - are they exactly the same? On Strats, I've done things like:
- Taking off the inertia block and sanding both sides - the top of the block and bottom of the bridge plate completely flat and making torquing the screws down pretty tight.
- Tighten the spring screws until the back of the bridge plate is sitting securely on the top of the body.
- Some bodies are made where the inertia block block actually sits on wood when the springs screws are tightened - other bodies are made so that there is some room between the inertia block and the body when the spring screws are tightened - if one inertia block contacts the wood and the other does not that might make a difference.
- Is one nut really tight in the slot and the other not
- Are both nuts glued in the same way..
- Are they using the same saddles - the steel saddles have a "ring" to them.
- Do both bridges have the same kind of base plate - is one steel and the other brass?

On Strats the bridge and nut adjustments and mechanics really make a huge difference and a series of small changes on both ends make all the difference in the world.

raise the action and re tighten the neck screws

both Callaham bridge and saddle assemblies...same tusq nuts installed on both...spring and trem setup again very similar (I dont want to say identical but my intent was to make them them the same. I am thinking it may just be a function of the wood.. but will definitely review all the connection points mentioned! Thanks!
iggy

There will be people that will tell you that the acoustic tone of an electric guitar does not and cannot make any difference to the sound that comes out of the amp.

These people are so staggeringly wrong it's not even funny.

I am sure that there are a myriad of posts here about this, but allow me to show my ignorance.

How/why does it affect the amplified tone? The only thing I could think of is that maybe the "ringing" bodies vibrate differently and sustain more - but even as I type that it doesn't sound right. Is this something that you can show proof of, or is this one of those "well I can hear it, if you can't then I am just better than you" things?

duplicate post

The OP says the guitar sounds great plugged in but not unplugged, then the next poster says that's impossible and that anyone who experiences what the OP is experiencing is 'staggeringly' wrong.

I gave up even caring what my electric guitars sound like unplugged years ago. They all sound lousy most of the time, but OK in rooms with nice acoustics like my bathroom. But all that matters is they all sound good plugged in, apart from the ones with lousy pickups so I change the pickups and they sound good.

All elements of an electric guitar work together systematically to produce an acoustic sound as well as an electric sound. I've found occasionally a certain combination of pickup cavity size, wood type, and hardware elements seem louder, but I can't substantiate that it is any one particular thing since my control group is so small.

I am sure that there are a myriad of posts here about this, but allow me to show my ignorance.

How/why does it affect the amplified tone? The only thing I could think of is that maybe the "ringing" bodies vibrate differently and sustain more - but even as I type that it doesn't sound right. Is this something that you can show proof of, or is this one of those "well I can hear it, if you can't then I am just better than you" things?

I'm the last guy who's going to pull out the "if you can't hear it I'm better than you" card. This is easy to prove theoretically and practically.

Wood vibrates differently on every instrument, right? By way of example, just like the OP says, he's got a guitar that jangles when unplugged and one that doesn't.

We make a common mistake by saying "the body vibrates". It does, but there's so much more. So does the bridge, headstock, neck, strings...all of it. If you're hearing a different sound between two unplugged electrics, it means they vibrate differently. With me so far?

Well, if they vibrate differently, that means that vibrations getting transmitted to the strings also are different. And those vibrations get picked up by your pickups and amplified. Result: guitar sounds different.

If my explanation is too incoherent, and it could easily be, just do this: Take your two favorite Teles, Tele A and Tele B. Take the electronics out of Tele A and put them in Tele B. Tele B will not sound like Tele A...so the source of your tone CANNOT be the electronics. Otherwise it would sound exactly the same.

Just an opinion, but the "ringing when unplugged" business is nonsense. The only thing that matters, unless you intend playing it unplugged all the time, is how it sounds through an amp. The factors there are huge.

I could argue the "ring" is lost sustain and would indicate an inferior guitar. Which is non-sense also.

Could be just old strings.

All elements of an electric guitar work together systematically to produce an acoustic sound as well as an electric sound. I've found occasionally a certain combination of pickup cavity size, wood type, and hardware elements seem louder, but I can't substantiate that it is any one particular thing since my control group is so small.

+1 - Most guitars can sound good with the right pickups - to sound great you have to really get into every aspect of the build and make sure that it is optimal for the amplified sound - every time, in my case, that has made a significant difference in the UN-amplified sound too - but that was a byproduct of getting the tone to be the best it could be.

The first thing to do is to always look at the mechanical tightness and make sure that the nut slots are right, relief then action... pickup height... In the end, acoustically there will be a difference IME, but shooting just for a good acoustic tone is not a linear path to a great amplified tone.

Take the trem cover off. It's the first thing I do when setting up any of my strats. Do a side by side and you will see it is not hocus pocus. John Mayer, SRV and a plethora of other strat players do the same.

Worry about it the next time you play a gig with an unplugged Strat.

If all things are otherwise equal, I'd put my money on the different fretboard materials.
If I were a gambling man, that is.

And as far as the wood debate is concerned, doesn't seem too logical for the
big builders out there in the world to still be using expensive stuff if it doesn't
factor into the sound at all. You'd think plywood would've reigned supreme
for decades by now.

There will be people that will tell you that the acoustic tone of an electric guitar does not and cannot make any difference to the sound that comes out of the amp.

These people are so staggeringly wrong it's not even funny.

As far as "suggestions", there really aren't any. You can't fix wood, it either resonates or it doesn't. And if you're happy with the amplified sound of your instruments, there really is nothing to fix.

I tap test my body blanks even before they're glued together, no sense in wasting time and effort on a piece of wood that won't ring. I do after they're glued together as well, and so on down the line - just to be sure - but I've never had a piece of wood that passed the initial tap test that didn't end up as a great sounding guitar.

Generally speaking, I say you are right on. I have had over 60 guitars and while the acoustic sound can make a difference in the electrified result, that's not always the case.

I had one guitar I sanded down, which had Krylon spray can paint from previous owner, and after getting it to the sealer, the guitar (a '65 tele) had a much more live sound acoustically. It was downright snappy compared to the flat sound it had with all that tagging paint on it.

But when plugged in, there was no difference. The magic sound, or to me being a staggered coil lead pup from after the blackguard days, was amazing. When I got a proper finish put on the guitar, an off yellow similar to the Olympic White from the body cavity, it lost that nice live sound acoustically from the sealer only finish but the sound plugged in was the same, both in tone and volume.

If we are talking acoustic guitar and even electric hollowbody guitar to a somewhat lesser extent, then yes wood and resonance is key. But in a bolt-on, solidbody guitar like a tele or strat, it may or may not make a difference. I don't like thick poly finishes the way they sound acoustically but I don't make a decision until I hear the guitar plugged in. Even a guitar which has the most resonant wood acoustically when played unplugged can sound awful plugged in and thus be a waste of time. For electric guitar purchasing, what I cannot stress enough is to play it through your amp or one very similar to it. A dual rectifier Boogie can make a dead guitar sound great in the store, but will it sound the same through your Fender Princeton or Champ?

Even when I am choosing a guitar and know I will play it through a louder quality amp, I do try it out on small cheap transistor amps just to hear what it sounds like. If it's good there, chances are it will be improved in a really good amp with some bigger wattage and tube sets.

And where wood can improve and increase electrified sound, proper bridges also help, and probably more. There have been some Fenders which have gotten a nice boost in the days when the American Standards beefed up their saddles from the pre-Schultz Fender days. Also brass bridges on some guitars and brass nuts can do wonders far more than the actual wood of a guitar when it comes to solidbody electric guitars. Those plastic saddle TOM bridges on some Gibsons can be saved with metal saddles as found on most TOM bridges. And for tele, yes, I like brass barrel saddles over the steel ones.

If all things are otherwise equal, I'd put my money on the different fretboard materials. If I were a gambling man, that is

That was my first thought also. (Let's start with the obvious difference). Thing that would seem a little strange to me, however, would be getting more "janggle" or "chime" out of the rosewood fretboard compared to the maple. I think a lot would depend on a person's definition of "janggle" and "chime" but the greater "highs" you tend to get with a maple fretboard would seem to make it more of a candidate for "janggle" and "chime."

What about flipping necks on the guitars to see if there's a difference? Maybe next time you're putting new strings on, spend a little extra time and swap necks to see what would happen. Sounds like a fun experiment to me and I think people would be interested.

Funny, I was just thinking about this article:

http://www.guitarnation.com/articles/calkin.htm

Funny, I was just thinking about this article:

http://www.guitarnation.com/articles/calkin.htm

I love heretics and I agree with a great deal of what Calkin says there. But when he goes so far as to claim people can not reliably tell the difference between guitars made from maple and mahogany he just looses me.

I'm the last guy who's going to pull out the "if you can't hear it I'm better than you" card. This is easy to prove theoretically and practically.

Wood vibrates differently on every instrument, right? By way of example, just like the OP says, he's got a guitar that jangles when unplugged and one that doesn't.

We make a common mistake by saying "the body vibrates". It does, but there's so much more. So does the bridge, headstock, neck, strings...all of it. If you're hearing a different sound between two unplugged electrics, it means they vibrate differently. With me so far?

Well, if they vibrate differently, that means that vibrations getting transmitted to the strings also are different. And those vibrations get picked up by your pickups and amplified. Result: guitar sounds different.

If my explanation is too incoherent, and it could easily be, just do this: Take your two favorite Teles, Tele A and Tele B. Take the electronics out of Tele A and put them in Tele B. Tele B will not sound like Tele A...so the source of your tone CANNOT be the electronics. Otherwise it would sound exactly the same.

Right, here goes....
The energy that generates the sound is provided by your hand (finger, pick etc) hitting the strings and causes them to vibrate. The pickup only responds to electro-magnetic vibration which is why you must have (magnetic) metal strings. Any resonance from the bridge/body/neck etc. will then cause some secondary vibration of the strings in a kind of feedback loop. The pickup will not respond to mechanical vibration and most of that is damped out anyway by spring-mounted pickups, but it will respond to the secondary vibration of the strings. So I reckon that the wood can make a difference to the sound of a guitar via the sympathetic resonance of the strings, and the particular piece of wood will resonate most at unique frequencies so each piece will sound different.
I am also of the opinion that the cleaner your amp tone is, the more obvious any difference will be - if there's very little extra harmonic content added by the amp then you can hear what is added by the guitar wood resonating.

Does this mean that we're all correct? :smile:

I still think that thinking goes against logic. Again, it's dollars and cents when it comes
to mass producers of anything and someone is going to have to really show me some
statistics to get me to agree that there isn't a difference between an electric guitar made
from the lowest grade Pine to that of one made from Ash, as an example. To say that
Fender just spends more money on the Ash to "make everyone feel good" simply defies
economic logic.

I'm not saying I know the answer at all, nor have I truly formed a solid enough opinion either
way, at least to the point of holding up my end of a debate. However, we all know that
bottom line is what drives big business, and the marketing departments of these mega-corps
can pretty much get the general populace to believe anything. So, why wouldn't they?

I agree. If they could get away with the cheaper stuff, they would.

I agree. If they could get away with the cheaper stuff, they would.

Which is why squiers nowadays are made of agathis and pine, and gfs sells paulownia.

Is agathis pretty to look at? I don know I've never seen one that wasn't buried under a solid poly finish. I do know that i won't buy a $3000 translucent finish guitar if its uggo.

The article linked above explains this. You can't make a guitar out of "other" woods cause nobody wants to buy it. So I guess the answer to your statement is that they can't get away with it!

Fender won't make an agathis mia guitar, why? Cause vintage are made of ash and we all know vintage are best!

Why did Leo switch from pine to ash
? Because it sounded better? Or because it was harder and lead to fewer QC rejects. (Don't know nothing about wood except that pine is soft and you can ding it by lookin at it)

Pine is cool for an occasional build, but cracks/splits/dents too much for production guitars. I would like to see one made of southern heartwood pine.

Why would removing the trem cover make a big difference? I always thought people took it off because it's easier to change strings without it and/or they're too lazy to put it back on after making adjustments! I like to keep mine on because it prevents my belt buckle from rubbing against the springs.

Why would removing the trem cover make a big difference? I always thought people took it off because it's easier to change strings without it and/or they're too lazy to put it back on after making adjustments! I like to keep mine on because it prevents my belt buckle from rubbing against the springs.

I like to keep mine off because they look stupid. My strat sounds pretty good now so I feel no need to put it back on. :mrgreen:

Why would removing the trem cover make a big difference? I always thought people took it off because it's easier to change strings without it and/or they're too lazy to put it back on after making adjustments! I like to keep mine on because it prevents my belt buckle from rubbing against the springs.

I am with you but for a different reason. Anything that close to my genitals should NEVER get close to naked, back panel Stratocaster springs. It's just...wrong.:mad:

There will be people that will tell you that if both of your guitars sound and play great through amps, then you don't actually need any comments or suggestions.

I am one of those people.

I kinda feel like it should be the other way around. The body doesn't cause vibration in the strings, it takes it away. Different body/neck assemblies absorb energy from the strings, they don't add to it. Now does this have more to do with the wood, or the construction?

I always thought the nice ring sound was what to hope for along with how it feels in your hands. Then I bought a PRS custom 22 the guitar felt great but really had more of a tinney sound unplugged but the guitar felt so good and when I tired it in an amp it sounded great. Then I realized the term " it rings" is misleading now I say it feels solid, meaning the strings have that nice vibration that's what you're looking for. If you have softer woods you're going to get less of a ringing sound than harder woods. I saying the main factor is a solid neck mount ( good fit tight screws) good nut and a decent bridge that's the secret to a good sustaining guitar. But overall I still stand by you need an incredible Amp and know how to dial it in for a great sound.

I am with you but for a different reason. Anything that close to my genitals should NEVER get close to naked, back panel Stratocaster springs. It's just...wrong.

So is not wearing pants when you play. :mrgreen:

One of my favorite guitars I own is a First Act I got at a yard sale for $5. Probably a Poplar or Agathis body, only 1.5" thick and a solid color Poly finish. 2 piece Maple neck, and I assume its got a modern style 2 way truss rod. Top loader bridge. Ceramic pickups. Cheap Radio-Shack capacitor. Basically the list of "what not to do" from all of the these kind of threads.

But it does have that acoustic "ring" to it and you can feel the body vibrate when you strum a chord. It has great sustain too. Sounds as good to my ear as any Tele I've built.

How long has either been played?

How long has either been played?

good question! The "61" is about 3 years old and a year older than the "55".
I also looked at all other hardware connections and set up appear to be identical. so age is a bit different. i will also try swapping necks as someone else suggested.
iggy

I leave the backplate off my strat because now that I put five springs in it and have the trem flat on the body, the holes on the backplate don't line up with the block and I can't restring it!
I'm just about to assemble two teles - one has one-piece Ash body, the other three bits of Pauwlonia. But they'll have different necks, bridges, finishes, and electronics, so I'll never know what the difference is...

What about flipping necks on the guitars to see if there's a difference? Maybe next time you're putting new strings on, spend a little extra time and swap necks to see what would happen. Sounds like a fun experiment to me and I think people would be interested.

This reminds me of story Fred Walicki from Westwood Music told me about Robbie Robertson switching the necks on two of his Strats. Before the switch they were lively & resonant after the switch - dull & lifeless. You can draw your own conclusions . . .

FWIW - my new Epi Nighthawk Custom RI rings like bell unplugged and is very chimey. It has a rosewood fingerboard and a (Fender-like) string-thru bridge. Way more jangle than any Strat I've ever owned. IMHO hardtail is the way to go if you want jangle but that's just my opinion. :wink:

the 50s strat has a single ply parchment PG
the 60s strat has the three ply /11 screw mint PG...
maybe thats it ...:lol:
iggy

Right, here goes....
The energy that generates the sound is provided by your hand (finger, pick etc) hitting the strings and causes them to vibrate. The pickup only responds to electro-magnetic vibration which is why you must have (magnetic) metal strings. Any resonance from the bridge/body/neck etc. will then cause some secondary vibration of the strings in a kind of feedback loop. The pickup will not respond to mechanical vibration and most of that is damped out anyway by spring-mounted pickups, but it will respond to the secondary vibration of the strings. :

Not true. Take all the strings off your guitar, plug it into your amp and turn it on, tap on the pickup with a plastic pick.... Does it make a noise? Yes it does. LR Baggs M1, M1A and M80 pickups are all designed to make use of that sensitivity.

strat build doesnt "ring" unplugged

Check the SIM card.

I take the back plate off the strats I have owned to enjoy the natural reverb from the term springs.

My 2CW. Its just one of life's most wondrous mysteries that perhaps we will never figure out.

I used to be a massive believer in the science. I would reach out to the interweb on a regular basis. I would read books about frequencies and measuring machines. I would learn about the elements in wood that contributed to godly tone vibrations. I would make certain, in minute detail, that no stone was left uncovered in terms of eliminating potential tone sapping irregularities.

That was until I made a practice guitar in a couple of days from beam I salvaged from a dump that had more holes than wood and a part that went 'squeak' when I attached my strap. I had to re saw the fret-slots twice because I didn't even bother to check that my slot template was secured at a funny angle...twice. I only built the thing so I could make mistakes on it before attempting the correct procedure on the real thing.

Then I decided to string her up. It sounds like heaven. It is my most prized possession.. and I can't for the life of me work out how.

I have since stopped reading articles about frequencies and the inverse relationship between the speed of vibration and wood density.